Dera Culture

[Tejwant Singh]

Tejwant Singh Jio,
Gurfateh.

You wrote:...The proof is in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji where they introduced themselves as NUMBERS.

YES Mahalla Pehla..dooja teeja chautha panjvaan nauvaan - in SGGS.
And secondly the use of the NANAK signature to signify the UNITY of the Divine Message- also in SGGS.
This was done by the Sikh Gurus voluntarily and in humility. While discussing this point in my Gurbani class, a student stood up and raised her hand....Master Ji....Isnt the EXACT SAME procedure adopted by the Prison Authorities for Prisoners ?? she asked..and...

Got me thinking.. YES....the same is FORCIBLY DONE to Prisoners in Prisons - whereby the Prisoned may be a KING..but all he gets is a NUMBER. His/Her outside world ID is destroyed while inside the prison walls. This is done deliberately BY the JAILORS..to OBLITERATE the Haumaii..the Standing..the Dignity..of the jailed person.

Could the two scenarios above be somehow co-related ? One student suggested that IF a "reformer" wants to REFORM the priosners.."He" would be better accepted by the "numbers" in Prison IF he himslef adopted a NUMBER as his/her ID. Otherwise he/she would stand out as DIFFERENT. Thus we have the NANAKS, coming to this "WORLD PRISON" to REFORM ...us the Prisoned...and they adopted the .....HUM NEECH..HUM DHADEE VEKAAR...HUM KOOKAR...approach...and stayed away from "TITLES".."HONOURS"....etc which would have made them "Stand OUT...as different......higher than thou..holier than thou....Better than thou....as OUTSIDERS rather than WITH US !!!....

I had to leave the discussion open ended as I was flabbergasted..to say the least as to the direction of the NUMBERS description had taken....
I would be grateful for your take on the matter....and from AAD ji ( and any one else as well ).....as we continue this on Wednesday evening class.

2. An off-shoot of the Numbers and "with the common man" approach adopted in SGGS...the discussion also encompassed the entirely DIFFERENT approach adopted by the writer of the Dasm Granth. There is NO NUMBER..NO Mahalla..NO "hum Neech..Hum Dhadee vekaar..Hum Kookar..etc..BUT "PATSHAH" approach. Any comments on this ?

3. With the looming Economic Crisis..the "water pumps" of the Sants and their deras are going to be working overtime....as more and more financially troubled "sikhs" abandon the AApan Hathin aappnna....aapeh kaaj swareah of Gurbani to crawl to the sants for miracles..and lose even more of what they have to these charlatans and snake oil merchants of misery. One can lead a "sikh" to the Amrit of Gurbani...BUT one cannot force him/her to DRINK it. ( adapted from the horse and water analogy ):happy:

Gyani Ji,

Guru fateh.

Yes, it is a number game but I disagree with the analogy of your student about the numbers on prisoners. Those numbers are given to them. In some countries, numbers show the kind of crimes they have committed or how long their rap sheets are. Prisons repress and suppress which the society calls it "rehabilitation". And to prove they are successful in that they are building more and more prisons around the world to accommodate the numbered prisoners. The state of California have to free 50,000 numbers prisoners due to lack of funds. Nice rehabilitation it seems.

Jews were given the numbers by Hitler. There was a play called Bent ( which means gay in the slang language) that I watched in London long time ago,in which it showed that the gay Jews had a different insignia or a number.

Sikhi teaches us to be free and freedom can only be attained through love, motivation and inspiration which comes through the tools of Gurbani not by repression,suppression and fear laced with threats of Hell and lake of fire like in other dogmatic religions. Caste system is also a number society.

Our Gurus chose the numbers because Sikhi is all about the message Not about the messenger. Perhaps that is the reason we do not applaud in the Gurdwaras unlike in other religious gathering and places because the message needs no applause whereas the messenger lives for them.

Regards

Tejwant Singh

PS: Your students are lucky to have you as their teacher.

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Tejwant Ji, Gurfateh.

THANK YOU JI.
( and we are lucky to have SPN )

 

[BhagatSingh]

VaheguruSeekr: Perhaps that is the reason we do not applaud in the Gurdwaras unlike in other religious gathering and places because the message needs no applause whereas the messenger lives for them.

We "applaud" by saying fateh or jaikara. It has to do with cultural norms.

Gyani ji

Please forgive my ignorance if anything I say is naive or ridiculous. I understand that we can think of the progression of the jyot instead of the individual by speaking of Nanak I through Nanak X. However the numbers in the Granth Sahib raags are attached to the mehls, mehaala, mhlw not the Nanak.

There may be technical reason for this that has to do with Indian musicology. I don't know. But I have heard kathas when the giani would say "Guruji is speaking in the house of Guru Amar Das." So you would know you were in the mehl 3. This makes it seem much cozier and personal than a prison would be. A part of Gurbani is enclosed within the house of a particular Guru. That Guru is speaking at that point in Guruji.

And then Guru Arjan ji set it up so that you can progress from house to house. You hear the 1rst Guru, then the 2nd Guru, and so forth. The progression from house to house within the total structure of the Granth Sahib ji then reminds you that the light passes from one house to the next house, by and from one Guru to the next Guru.

That is how I always think of it. Let me know if it makes any sense.

Actually, that number theory makes sense. They could have simply called themselves by their names but chose to use numbers to deindividualize themselves.
Individualization is found mostly in western culture. In eastern culture it would be disrespect. So it would show humility to give yourself a number. It would also show humility annd deindividualization to write under the name Nanak.

Aad ji x 10^99, Mehl 1 is Guru Nanak, Mehl 2 is Guru Angad, etc... So they ARE using numbers to identify themselves. Notice its not Mehl Guru Nanak, Mehl Angad, etc. Its not Angad's house, its House # 2.

 

[spnadmin]

Bhagat ji

What is Aad ji x 10^99?