Cutting My Hair?

[skeptik]

I am looking for some advice but I wont ask any particular question for which an answer I expect you to provide. Please have a read and give me your thoughts, I dont mind what you say, but I encourage you to share them without hesitating.

Firstly I will tell you a little about myself and my problems. When I was a teenager I became caught up in all this religious fervour and committed myself for a life of righteous living. It is something I scarcely share the same enthusiasm for these days. Then I had decided, quite passionately, that I wanted to be a "proper" sikh, with all that entailed. I plunged myself heart first into the mystical world of Sikhi. As one can imagine, the romanticism did not last long and now I am left at cross-roads.

Unashamedly like every single human being to have ever lived, I had been looking for a "fix" for my life. And i thought religion was the way to do it. Well religion can give you many things - it can give your life meaning, it can give you friendship, community - it can even give you happiness and euphoria. All these things I attained in various degrees through my religious experiences.

But (personal) religion never improved my character, it did not make me stronger or give me any useful wisdom. It did not add to the moral framework I had adopted from my parents, nor did it solve any of my problems. In fact it only added to them because to a dreamer like me, so-called enlightment is only a prescription for greater dreaminess - going further away from reality - and becoming skeptical of, and growing distant from, worldy affairs.

In fact what I had needed all along was not greater solitude - I needed far less. I needed to immerse myself in the real world and be more worldy. I have done this now, and seen how it has given my life meaning. I have a purpose now: to earn an honest living - to provide for my family - to become successful in my career. To be in contact with many people and actively socialise with many others. Further to achieve these ends does not require me to be particularly religious, nor do i think it is even a requirement at all.

Religion, now, is actually in my way from achieving those things. When i walk into an interview, I am immediately conscious of looking strange with my beard. You try to cut a clean professional image - but it doesnt help to have all that facial hair. I have brothers who are clean shaven and they look so crisp and fresh, and I simply do not. I actually havent got much of a problem with my self image - but i am aware that others might, and that itself is the problem.

Further my experience with girls is such that I am aware that few of them are willing to consider a kesh-dhari for a mate. It is usually an unsaid thing, and only one of these girls has been obnoxious enough to admit it forthright, but it is evident that it a turnoff to most girls - sikh girls included. I am nearing marriage and I realise my options have been limited greatly already.

This shouldnt be a problem. There are singhs out there who manage to lead rich fulfilled lives despite all the discrimination. I applaud them and once aspired to be such a person. But my situation is unique. I can imagine another sikh in my place dealing with others with humour, confidence and comfort. I simply cannot do this - and if try - well it is too obvious that i am trying and it becomes awkward for not only myself, but to the other person.

I have a cousin who has a great personality and trims his beard despite wearing a turban. I think he made the right decision. He still gets to be a singh but doesnt have the rest of the problems that I have. He is lucky and I think he got it right, while i got it wrong. I realise I have just outlined a standard problem with no expectation of a novel solution, but that is it - please share your thoughts.

 

[dalsingh]

Whatever else, I admire your frank honesty and the fact you've stuck to it so far.

Just some thoughts: Your obviously very intelligent and articulate. I think maybe you are going through that phase that many guys experience where you are a tad bit unsure of yourself.

You may find that this phase will end pretty quickly. In regard to the work based social contact you talked about....

Just relax, don't try to be over friendly and don't isolate yourself either. From my experience working in a predominantly white environment I found that some people will find any reason to make you feel bad or alienated. Even if you didn't have a pagh dhara, it could as easily be your skin colour. You have to just focus on your job and not make the mistake of tying your whole life around it. When you leave the office (or whatever) make something nice to go home to and forget it all. Singh, whether you have a turban and beard or not, believe you me at all work places their will be those who, for whatever reason, just take a dislike to you and bring their negative bull in your vicinity. Avoid them as much as you can. Similarly, there will be those that are open minded and get on with you.

Just find your "centre", find your confidence and it should shine through. Plus I know a good few turbanned guys with beautiful girlfriends/wives so you know, it isn't like your future is set in stone. Confidence Singh, without arrogance. Girls love confidence and intelligence. You've got the latter, now just find your feet and develop the former. And remember we all go through things that knock our confidence now and then, learning to build yourself up after these things is what will give you real character and strength. You'll be cool.

Just thank Waheguru you weren't born a dumbo! lol

 

[badmash]

Well, what an unusually honest post. That is something one does not see everyday.

I think you should do what you think is best. Cliche, yes, but true also. To what degree you feel the kes and appearance effect you, that is something only you can say. I do not keep hair, nor ever have. If you feel that it is something you would try without, no one really can stop you nor should they, as most sikhs have cut their hair. Obviously, appearance in the west, is most important. Many people will make a negative judgement based upon pagdri and all, let us be honest. Usually out of ignorance, sometimes just stupidity, or both plus bigotry.

As for girls and wives, well, let me blunt. There is always India. And at least many of those women know how to cook well and know the language better and traditions better. Now mind you, many in the west do too, and many in India also do not, but your chances are obviously better back "home". But honestly, if one's interest is in Sikhi, appearance and culture is still accepted back in India.

So, good luck to you! Be well. Do not dwell on any problem too long, nor be too negative. I wish you good luck and good fortune.

 

[badmash]

You have probably read, but I post for those interested in a successful, young sikh:

SikhNet News Archive - Meet the chic sikh: article first published 08/15/2006

 

[badmash]

And

SikhNet News Archive - House of Waris: article first published 01/10/2007

 

[badmash]

and

http://www.sikhnet.com/Sikhnet/news.nsf/NewsArchive/B0FEC32992671A428725725D0064F309!OpenDocument

 

[spnadmin]

Well, skeptik, here goes! A woman's perspective. For the moment, consider that hair is not the issue. That the issue is weight, or complexion, or a slight speech impediment. Yes, there will always be women who will turn away, even intelligent women who should "know better". Appearance is the first layer of reality in any encounter, and in every culture there is an "ideal appearance" that most of us don't possess. And many people don't go beyond appearance, especially in the West. To be merely "average looking" is a curse, and if you are average looking, you are expected to compensate by having a "great personality."

What is that all about? You don't really want to get caught up in all of that! It is a waste of time and energy.

If you hole up inside of yourself, you won't meet anyone, let alone someone to spend a lifetime with. If you work on developing "that great personality" you will end up emotionally exhausted and at odds with yourself. That is not where the Guru wants you to be.

Be yourself and follow your own path. Check periodically to see if you are on the right path. You will know because at the end of the day you won't feel drained and lonely. Of course, make sure that your path doesn't somehow have signs all about that say "No women allowed."

It doesn't hurt to explore: Sikh speed-dating, matrimonials, India, etc., but a better bet would be to find some solid and caring brothers who are looking for a great husband for a fine sister.

You will attract someone who wants to walk with you because she enjoys your energy, your desire to share your energy; and in her eyes you, and your hair, will be her crowning glory. No one else will even come close.

 

[kds1980]

dear skeptik

i belong to a middle class family.i have a relative who is turbanned.he is a {censored}.his i.q is low.he don't do anything but even he got married.i simply
don't understand why successful sikhs like you are worried about marriage.
in india a lot of sikhs will happily marry their daughter to you.why to go for girls which are just looking for appearance.do you think they will raise good families.even if you got your hair cut don't go for these types of girls.

 

[MKAUR1981]

WJKK WJKF

Skeptic
You need to stop worrying about what others think and as Dal Singh said be confident in yourself. We are sometimes are our own worse critics. We don't know what others are thinking, but read to much into the situation. I'm sure you've heard of the saying "Don't judge a book by it's cover", but we all do it. However so long as you are happy within yourself, it doesn't matter what others think.

As for marriage…..(I was thinking of posting a new thread about arranged marriage, people experiences and what people put down as their requirements.)
However, it seems that marriage itself has become a complete joke. I know you feel that being kesh-dhari is limiting your options, but I will like to share with you that my cousin (who is 33yo and clean-shaven) has been looking for a suitable girl since he was 28yo and the reasons I hear: she's overweight, too career-minded (not traditional), or too pendoo (list could go on and on). Also there have been plenty of times where he has been rejected for one reason or another, one of them being that he lives in an extended family and plans to do so after marriage. I sometimes wonder if these are not reasons but excuses because people do not want to get married. Like Badmash said "you could always go to India", but marriage is not something to be taken lightly. It's not about finding a wife who will accept you and your hair, it's about finding a soul-mate. One who will accept you for who you are and who will work with you in your bad times and good. So what I'm basically trying to say is please don't feel that your hair is limiting your options. Maybe as aad0002 suggested, try other avenues as well to meet women.

You may think your cousin has got it right, but maybe secretly he is wishing he could be like you. I know I look at Sikh girls with their dastaar and question myself why am I struggling to keep my hair. Please think back to why you kept your kesh other than the religious side of it. You mentioned that you become a "proper Sikh" but I'm not sure whether you are an Amritdhari. Hair is important part of Sikhism, but if it is really making you unhappy and you feel it is a restricting you (and make sure they are reasons not excuses) then what would be the implications/problems for you to cut your hair and/or trim your beard. It was your choice in the start and your choice now.

 

[spnadmin]

Skeptic

Here is a link to an interesting article about Sikh speed-dating. There are groups that conduct speed-dating services in Europe and the US. And often people will travel to the US for a speed-dating session in NY. It isn't kooky at all. I know someone who did this, became engaged, married and had twins in less than 2 years.

The web site for SIKHNET always has updates on Sikh speed-dating also.

Here is the link

SikhNet News Archive - Sleepless in Manhattan: article first published 03/01/2007

 

[skeptik]

i wrote a long post but i dont think i want to share all of that personal stuff on the internet. so i've deleted it just now. Having written it has sorted out things nicely. I will concentrate my efforts on working and developing my social skills. I will also think about trimming my beard and moustache to make it easier in dealing with other people. I will continue to wear a turban and I think maybe when i am older, successful and awesome, I will start growing it again. I do not think i am worthy of the saroop and I think that is what troubles me the most - i feel like a fraud. I have all these high expectations of myself and I should concentrate on them. When i achieve some of those goals, and hopefully attract and marry a nice girl, i will reconsider my commitment to Sikhi. Until then, I do not wish to set myself back any more than is necessary. The task ahead of me is already difficult - i do no wish to make it impossibly difficult. Many thanks for the posts, i appreciate it.

 

[JtotheAtothe...]

The sikh society today has made it a taboo to cut one's hair. We often forget the focus on compassion brought forth by the Gurus. We forget that a man (and woman) with or without hair is still a person who must not be treated as if they are outsiders. The image of the sikh has become so reinforced and concrete that any deviation is spoken of with disdain.

My answer to your dilemna is that you must ask yourself the question with complete honesty. You have evaluate yourself and judge wehter you would rather have people immediately identify on the lines of a religion, incongruent with your philosophy, or would you rather face their scorn and hold fast to your belief.

You must realize that the decision to cut your hair is one which requires great fortitude as you will shed an major portion of your identity; it compares to a decision to return into a battlefield on which the opposing sides are firing at each other while a friend lies wounded amidst them. You will fling yourself into the danger zone in order save another's life. I know this analogy is far-fetched but I only aim to show the gravity of the decision to cut one's hair in our society.

Oh, aside from the social commentary - I have also slowly cast off my religious wares and found myself a much better person than I ever was. So, no, religion is not at all necessary for improving oneself. To change oneself, one needs courage and judicious self-analysis.:roll:

 

[Harjas Kaur Khalsa]

Your Unique Identity as a Sikh - Google Video

YouTube - Priceless - Being a Sikh by Sat Bir Singh (Age 24)

In Sikhi, there is radical self-acceptance of the human form as Waheguru Ji made you. In manmukh society, there is radical self-rejection and manipulation of appearance in order to win approval from people who don't even care who you are. Or to be seductive and enticing in some vain hope at winning affection, again from people who want you to change yourself. They are not accepting you. They pressure for a particular image of you.

Only in Gursikhi is there courage to love yourself as you truly are without cutting, trimming, dyeing, shaving, piercing, tatooing, and otherwise altering your form to hide something from yourself. In Sikhi when we age, we age gracefully, without hiding it. In Sikhi, when we are interested in somebody we don't paint make-up on to wear a mask or trim and things to try to manipulate a certain look. But you are right, it's a courageous journey not to look like everyone else in the world, but to wear the face God gave you. And it's even more amazing to wear it with divine dignity. Besides Sikhs are the handsomest people in the world.

~peace on your journey

 

[S|kH]

I have to totally agree with the OP.

I believe I've started to enter the same crossroads. I looked for a void to fill my life, and religion sought it. In this process, I detracted from worldly matters, and it still plays a huge effect on me.

I'm slowly learning to be more involved with the world around me and the resources it brings to achieve my success. This is making me a better person overall.

As far as cutting kesh is concerned with me, I've had the same thoughts, but I doubt I ever will. I dont even believe in God, but keep kesh, because I feel its a part of me, it identifies me. (See, I still have this some-what rebellious attitude towards worldly goods...rest of society promotes clean-shaven, i promote a beard)

I don't even claim to be Sikh anymore. I've definetly left that chapter behind me. It created a good sense of community, but one that I know will give up on you the first instant you express doubt. I get a much better community from my family and friends, they stick it through, no matter what I tell them.

As for as where I'll go? I've never been so motivated to achieve success in school as I do now, simply because prior to this, I would make myself so detached from worldly goods that I could go live in a tree and be happy (think: hippie). But now? I'm going to law school, and there is nothing stopping me. I have less and less time that I wish to dedicate to thinking about mindless issues that play no effect on me.

Seriously, why pray when I could be studying that will actually give me a degree that I can utilize to save people? Why detach from worldly goods, when I can use it to my benefit to achieve things far greater for humanity than a sadhu ever could?

When I was young, I was a rebel to White America. My friends used to say I was the triple threat -- dressed ghetto, had a beard, intelligent immigrant. I loved it, because I was so detached from anything worldly, anything society pitted at me. I would focus on bigger issues.

It's over time, I've realized those issues didn't fill the void I had in me all along. I just wanted to make a difference in society, which included showing people that they do not need to be mindless robots to the media and culture. To save people dying in places I barely heard of. A Law degree gives me the edge on a political floor and the court room to some-what achieve those goals in a realistic manner. Now, I know some will say well, you can still do that and do Sikhi with it, both can go hand in hand. And I say, whats the point? Maybe later in my life, but why waste my time now doing both, when only one will give me the gain I seek for.

As for me, I'm focusing all my energy on that, and no longer on these ridiculous issues made by the Sikh community, or frivilous arguments on God's nature.

But yeah, something in me keeps my kesh. I do not know what. But I highly doubt I will lose it, ever. I really don't know why. It's just the way it is, and I've come to accept it.

 

[RGNY]

not to influence your decision, but just as an observation.

i believe times are changing. organizations like Sikhcoalition.org are doing there part to make sure that turban/kesh are known as religious items and not 'fashion'. i recently signed my name and badge number to a petition to allow NYPD officers who are Sikhs to wear turban/beard.

also, i had very long hair and beard when i got my first professional job (as a mental health counselor). today, more and more agencies are more interested in your speech and conduct rather than your appearance.

while i am only a student of Sikhi, i find beard and turban to be very dignified, and i think if you wear it as such, an employer will notice this as well.

as far as marriage, the majority of my female friends do not consider a man without a beard 'a man'. there is someone for everyone.

 

[Harjas Kaur Khalsa]

But now? I'm going to law school, and there is nothing stopping me. I have less and less time that I wish to dedicate to thinking about mindless issues that play no effect on me.

Seriously, why pray when I could be studying that will actually give me a degree that I can utilize to save people? Why detach from worldly goods, when I can use it to my benefit to achieve things far greater for humanity than a sadhu ever could?

Well Sikhism as a religion teaches to be a householder, not a renunciant, and to give to charity so as to support people in need. So except for sanatan non-Panthic sects with Sikh name like Nirmala or Udasis, Sikhism doesn't support being a sadhu anyway.

Why pray? Well that's up to you. I worked as a nurse for 17 years and can honestly tell you people suffer and die every day of the week. That law degree won't be much help when someone you love is diagnosed with metastatic cancer. Some people think religion is about mindless issues until something cracks the comfortable illusion of life, like disfigurement, illness and death. Then all of a sudden, those mindless issues are front and center. Even the atheist will break down and pray for the life of his daughter.

I don't even claim to be Sikh anymore. I've definetly left that chapter behind me. It created a good sense of community, but one that I know will give up on you the first instant you express doubt. I get a much better community from my family and friends, they stick it through, no matter what I tell them.

The only one who will truly be there for you is Guru. Even friends and family can't help you. Your spiritual journey belongs to you and no sangat can be the perfect embodiment of Guruji's kirpa. Were you trying to be a blessing to these people in your sangat? Maybe they are suffering some needs too, like financial burdens, divorce, illness, etc. People are people. Maybe they weren't up to hearing all your doubts and disbelief. Nobody owes it to you to be your ideal community. To be part of a community, you have to be your part as blessing, being a giver and not just a taker.

rwm n jphu kvn miq lwgy ] (792-7, sUhI, Bgq kbIr jI)
raam na japahu kavan mat laagay.

mir jieby kau ikAw krhu ABwgy ]1] rhwau ] (792-8, sUhI, Bgq kbIr jI)
mar ja-ibay ka-o ki-aa karahu abhaagay. ||1|| rahaa-o.

duK suK kir kY kutMbu jIvwieAw ] (792-8, sUhI, Bgq kbIr jI)
dukh sukh kar kai kutamb jeevaa-i-aa.

mrqI bwr ieksr duKu pwieAw ]2] (792-8, sUhI, Bgq kbIr jI)
martee baar iksar dukh paa-i-aa. ||2||

kMT ghn qb krn pukwrw ] (792-9, sUhI, Bgq kbIr jI)
kanth gahan tab karan pukaaraa.

kih kbIr Awgy qy n sMm@wrw ]3]1] (792-9, sUhI, Bgq kbIr jI)
kahi kabeer aagay tay na samHaaraa. ||3||1||
------------------------------------------------------
You have not meditated on the Lord; what thoughts are you attached to?
What preparations are you making for your death, O unfortunate one? ||1||Pause||
Through pain and pleasure, you have taken care of your family.
But at the time of death, you shall have to endure the agony all alone. ||2||
When you are seized by the neck, then you shall cry out.
Says Kabeer, why didn't you remember the Lord before this? ||3||1||

I just wanted to make a difference in society, which included showing people that they do not need to be mindless robots to the media and culture. To save people dying in places I barely heard of. A Law degree gives me the edge on a political floor and the court room to some-what achieve those goals in a realistic manner. Now, I know some will say well, you can still do that and do Sikhi with it, both can go hand in hand. And I say, whats the point? Maybe later in my life, but why waste my time now doing both, when only one will give me the gain I seek for.

As for me, I'm focusing all my energy on that, and no longer on these ridiculous issues made by the Sikh community, or frivilous arguments on God's nature.

Obviously Sikhi is bigger than debates on a forum. Some things are frivolous. And some things are insidious and contentious. Just wait until you are examining the nuances of particular phraseology and sentence structure to determine whether an actual business offer was made and constitutes a contract. It's ironic you say this because Law is the most frivolous and ridiculous system ever devised to complicate the most simple things. You're going to work like a dog and totally struggle to keep your ideals in the legal profession. The system is not designed to reward Justice. Law is a business as corrupted as any other.

I applaud your desire to work for human rights and wish you biggest success. Because right now, especially with the Iraq war, human rights violations as a political agenda are front and center. It's definitely something to fight for and defend. As for your spiritual journey, you have to just live what you believe like everyone else. What can anyone say about your choices? They are yours. You may be disheartened one day to look at yourself in the mirror, and see a balding, middle-aged bureaucrat making a living with no thought whatsoever about human rights. Without a Guru, it's very difficult even to be good, and not be swayed by the illusions of maya.

I would recommend you volunteer to cheer up sick and dying kids and their families in a local hospital. The reason is, you will find that you have to dig very deep to find a way to give any kind of comfort. They don't care about politics in Darfur. They don't care about legal and political superstars. They don't even care about nationally recognized physicians. They are looking for something beyond suffering. That's where the frivlously marvelous beauty of religion can shine. Just to hold someone's hand, to pray for them when they're dying makes a more lasting impression on people. You don't know how many times in the middle of the night distraught families beg us to call a chaplain, a priest, a rabbi, anyone who would be willing to come give some comfort, some prayer, some counsel. And you don't know how many times, there is no one who comes at all. You don't have to go far away or get a degree to help hurting people. The whole world is hurting. To be a small blessing is not hard. What people often want is to be seen as important. But that's not the same thing. There comes a time when prayer is the only medicine you can give. And it's more important than being important. To pray for someone is to show them love when they need it most.

 

[S|kH]

Well Sikhism as a religion teaches to be a householder, not a renunciant, and to give to charity so as to support people in need. So except for sanatan non-Panthic sects with Sikh name like Nirmala or Udasis, Sikhism doesn't support being a sadhu anyway.

I didn't mean Sadhu literally, I meant it in the modern society way...as what your implying, but yet distant enough from modern trends to not care. Complicated meaning, I know.

Why pray? Well that's up to you. I worked as a nurse for 17 years and can honestly tell you people suffer and die every day of the week. That law degree won't be much help when someone you love is diagnosed with metastatic cancer. Some people think religion is about mindless issues until something cracks the comfortable illusion of life, like disfigurement, illness and death. Then all of a sudden, those mindless issues are front and center. Even the atheist will break down and pray for the life of his daughter.

I don't see the connection to praying and watching people suffer. Your claiming the law degree won't help me when someone has cancer, and your right, but I fail to see how praying will?
You say even the "atheist" prays when his child has cancer. There's usually two general outcomes when you, or a loved one get cancer, they either become super-religious, or become super-atheist. I have seen both happen, and I respect both equally. I've seen Amritdhari fathers give up after their child died at the age of 6. That does not mean I respect them less. And yes, I know of stories of how mothers watched their children die infront of them but never gave up their Sikhi. This is no longer that day and age, we have more evidence in front of the religious believer that should instill doubt in him/her. (See : Test of Faith topic). We have far more evidence now that one should be agnostic, than we ever did before, so its not nearly the same circumstance, and its futile to call that Amritdhari father who gave up, "weak" and recite the story of our motherly ancestors.

The only one who will truly be there for you is Guru. Even friends and family can't help you. Your spiritual journey belongs to you and no sangat can be the perfect embodiment of Guruji's kirpa. Were you trying to be a blessing to these people in your sangat? Maybe they are suffering some needs too, like financial burdens, divorce, illness, etc. People are people. Maybe they weren't up to hearing all your doubts and disbelief. Nobody owes it to you to be your ideal community. To be part of a community, you have to be your part as blessing, being a giver and not just a taker.

My guru will be there for me? I fail to see that also. How can you prove my guru will be there for me? Isn't he an entity that can not be proven, isn't it in the mind? My mind will be there for me. Whether I make it strong enough to last it through the thick and the thin has no relevance if a super-being exists, or watches over me. Family is a measurable entity, so we KNOW it will be there for us. It is assured. It's all psychological. You may need the Guru to be there for you, but it depends on personality. This is a whole another debate.

Obviously Sikhi is bigger than debates on a forum. Some things are frivolous. And some things are insidious and contentious. Just wait until you are examining the nuances of particular phraseology and sentence structure to determine whether an actual business offer was made and constitutes a contract. It's ironic you say this because Law is the most frivolous and ridiculous system ever devised to complicate the most simple things. You're going to work like a dog and totally struggle to keep your ideals in the legal profession. The system is not designed to reward Justice. Law is a business as corrupted as any other.

In this, you are very much right. This will most likely be the case.

I applaud your desire to work for human rights and wish you biggest success. Because right now, especially with the Iraq war, human rights violations as a political agenda are front and center. It's definitely something to fight for and defend. As for your spiritual journey, you have to just live what you believe like everyone else. What can anyone say about your choices? They are yours. You may be disheartened one day to look at yourself in the mirror, and see a balding, middle-aged bureaucrat making a living with no thought whatsoever about human rights. Without a Guru, it's very difficult even to be good, and not be swayed by the illusions of maya.

You are right in your sentences, except for the last comment. Without the guru its very difficult to be good? to be swayed by maya? From my topics and tone, you can clearly identify me as an atheist. Yet, I am far less swayed by maya than even 95% of religious believers. As far as being good, I'd consider myself a good person, but thats all relative and not measurable.

I would recommend you volunteer to cheer up sick and dying kids and their families in a local hospital. The reason is, you will find that you have to dig very deep to find a way to give any kind of comfort. They don't care about politics in Darfur. They don't care about legal and political superstars. They don't even care about nationally recognized physicians. They are looking for something beyond suffering. That's where the frivlously marvelous beauty of religion can shine. Just to hold someone's hand, to pray for them when they're dying makes a more lasting impression on people. You don't know how many times in the middle of the night distraught families beg us to call a chaplain, a priest, a rabbi, anyone who would be willing to come give some comfort, some prayer, some counsel. And you don't know how many times, there is no one who comes at all. You don't have to go far away or get a degree to help hurting people. The whole world is hurting. To be a small blessing is not hard. What people often want is to be seen as important. But that's not the same thing. There comes a time when prayer is the only medicine you can give. And it's more important than being important. To pray for someone is to show them love when they need it most.

I have volunteered at a hospital, and I went the opposite route as to what you are saying. So much suffering that makes absolutely no sense that religions identify as a "karma" and other nonsense. "Previous life". I never had the guts to tell a 3 year old kid that he is suffering from cancer because of something he did in his past life.
And, as for the latter of your paragraph, I think we as humans are intelligent enough now, to realize that we only utilize God and praying to calm us down, and its all in the mind, all psychological. Hence, we should be able to overcome it. Its about accepting death. Praying does nothing, but give a temporary solution. I dont need to pray for that, we've overcome that phase of human existance. We have to realize its dumb luck, there is nothing we can do in certain situations. Praying isn't going to save anyone. If it calms you down, then by all means do it. But, I would much rather have my favorite music or tv show on. In essence, I'm using it as the same tool you use praying on the death bed.

 

[JtotheAtothe...]

I disagree with Harjas Kaur Khalsa on issue of reversion to religion under circumstances of difigurement, disease, death. (funny how they all start with d's).

I think it is a matter of perspective on life wether a human will choose religion in such circumstances. It is a choice of hope when said human, under the bad of our world, chooses religion. They seek some kind of consolance on their suffering and seek to renew their life. I admit I have never faced these bad circumstances in their horrific degrees, never personally; I have only held witness to such events. And as far as I can tell, the invalid aspires to hope of better days. Hope can come from many aspects of life such as love or religion.

Of all these religion has survived to this day as it the basic platform of hope for humans. It gives us purpose (morals and such), it gives us assurance that we are not futile, our sufferings are not futile. The christians have their heavens and we have our karmic cycles of life.

However, this perspective is complimented by another view, in which cause need not preced effect, or better, not every cause must be justified for its effect. In this relation, humans do not need to look for a hope, really an illusion of life. One does not need consolation from God or need to blame their present dilemnas on the past or future(future being God). At its base, praying and looking to God will not help because if it really mattered one would have been at this task before. Why this pivotal moment to seek God?

Death, the greatest of all powerful forces, will get to you regardless if you become one with God or not. And if this will happen will God really matter. Considering that you are not dead, you cannot really answer this question. Neither can I; I will not pretend. But considering that you have probably been around death a plenty as a nurse, perhaps, you know it enough to say that in death, God will come to the rescue.

So will your prayers matter on your deathbed? Will the rest of the world be saved in your death? If all those people will follow you to death, then which is more important the life or the death. Obviously it is life. So why waste life on religion, when you can use this time to make the most of that which really counts, life.

Mr. Sikh guy is right, even though as lawyer he will hardly provide immediate help, he can still help those who will be crushed under our legal systems. If death and disease is all that matters in life, then I think you might have to pessimistic a view of life.

 

[Harjas Kaur Khalsa]

Death, the greatest of all powerful forces, will get to you regardless if you become one with God or not. And if this will happen will God really matter. Considering that you are not dead, you cannot really answer this question. Neither can I; I will not pretend. But considering that you have probably been around death a plenty as a nurse, perhaps, you know it enough to say that in death, God will come to the rescue.

So will your prayers matter on your deathbed? Will the rest of the world be saved in your death? If all those people will follow you to death, then which is more important the life or the death. Obviously it is life. So why waste life on religion, when you can use this time to make the most of that which really counts, life.

1. Death will come to all. The question is....are we the physical body?

There is something in physics called wave-particle duality. That posits that every element of our physicality, every atom is made of subatomic particles. And these exceedingly tiny particles have a unique property....

Not only are they measurable, discrete, objects in time and space...they are also a wave.

Now thats a radical concept. Because a particle is limited to 3-dimensional reality plus 4th dimension of time, but a wave is infinite in all directions. A wave has properties of non-locality. Meaning, as in the superluminal wave, it has extradimensional abilities not limited to time and space. The superluminal signaling is in instantaneous contact with every other particle anywhere in the universe. The superluminal wave can move between past, present, future, because time is no barrier.

If every particle of your being is also a part of a superluminal (faster than the speed of light) signaling process, there is more to your being than meets the eye. Don't overestimate your physical intelligence. In the scheme of things, if someone was standing on Mars with a telescope, your brain would appear smaller than a bacteria. It's impossible to perceive the beyondness with such a limited brain. However, every brain is being utilized by a phantom energy. That energy travels via waves and is in interconnection with higher realities. Thus, something of what mind is, can in fact be in contact/perception of beyondness. At least, the scientific theories and advanced mathematics are already in place to establish such notions have more validity than mere imagination and wishful religious thinking.

How can you prove my guru will be there for me? Isn't he an entity that can not be proven, isn't it in the mind? My mind will be there for me... It is assured. It's all psychological.

2. Is your mind a manifestation of the physical processes of your brain? Because is this were true, when the brain decays everything you are decays. Any greatness in the person is reduced to an accident of genetics doomed to extinction. Then it makes sense to ask why God doesn't come to your rescue at death. But I have a more radical paradigm for you to consider.

What if, rather than being a product of neurochemistry and physical structures, what if your mind was actually the energy that passes through the neurosynaptic receptors of the brain? What if your mind was a superluminal co-reality rooted in higher dimensional experience, but somehow trapped in these dimensions of time and space? And what if that superluminal co-reality was at the same time an interconnected wholeness unifying everything that is at a quantum level? Because my friend, this is precisely the philosophical implication of modern physics.

"Consciousness is not passive but active forcing the molecular complexes to make choices between one quantum state and another with mind inherent in every electron." -Freeman Dyson

3. Have you heard of the implicate order? It's a concept coined by the physicist David Bohm, who was a protege of Albert Einstein. The implicate order is that higher dimensional (not bound by time-space) quantum energy enfolded within every particle. And every particle is constantly moving into and out of manifestation (the explicate order). In fact, particles aren't even independant objects that are born and cease to exist. Particles aren't even actual objects. Dependant on the observer, particles are "tendancies to exist." And as Bohm explains, a particle with a certain shape and behavior moves out of the explicate order back into the implicate order only to reappear as a different particle with different characteristics...but the energy is the same.

YouTube - Multiple Dimensions
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPdcWrlvshk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsRWWLH1q7U

Basically, two subatomic particles that have once interacted can instantaneously "respond to each other's motions thousands of years later when they are light-years apart." This sort of particle interconnectedness requires superluminal signaling, which is faster than the speed of light...

Bohm believes that this "hiddeness" may be reflective of a deeper dimension of reality. He maintains that space and time might actually be derived from an even deeper level of objective reality. This reality he calls the Implicate Order. Within the Implicate Order everything is connected; and, in theory, any individual element could reveal information about every other element in the universe...

Bohm refers to this ultimate level--the source of the nonmanifest--as the Subtle Nonmanifest, something akin to spirit, a mover, but still matter in the sense that it is a part of the Implicate Order. For Bohm, the Subtle Nonmanifest is an *active intelligence* beyond any of the "energies defined in thought."

Trying to describe the Subtle Nonmanifest, Bohm states that the "subtle is what is basic and the manifest is its result." Intelligence "directly transforms matter." And finally, Bohm says it straight: "there's a truth, an actuality, a being beyond what can be grasped in thought, and this is intelligence, the sacred, the holy."

http://www.bizcharts.com/stoa_del_sol/plenum/plenum_3.html

"If indeed we're right that these quantum-like phenomena, or the rules of quantum mechanics, apply all the way through to our psychological processes, to what's going on in the nervous system -- then we have an explanation perhaps, certainly we have a parallel, to the kind of experiences that people have called spiritual experiences. Because the descriptions you get with spiritual experiences seem to parallel the descriptions of quantum physics.

http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~sai/pribram.htm

Imagine the implications that there are hidden levels of higher reality involved in mysterious processes of life we dimly understand! Now, what is non-locality? Subtle perceptual manifestations of reality such as sight and sound, physical density (created by electron shells which forbid your hand from passing through a wall) all these things are local phenomenon. Our physicality passes through space-time step by step in a linear fashion. In other words, we follow the dictates of time, which moves forward. We are compelled to experience reality on a physical level as limited by distance.

Non-locality defies this logic, because it isn't bound to these dimensions. The hidden energies which enliven those processes derive from a deeper order of being and are outside the limits of time and space. Well, people can remain agnostic or atheists, but if you are a real student of science, you might find it disconcerting how many ancient texts actually come very close to describing the more bizarre theories modern physics.

"The actual order (the Implicate Order) itself has been recorded in the complex movement of electromagnetic fields, in the form of light waves. Such movement of light waves is present everywhere and in principle enfolds the entire universe of space and time in each region. This enfoldment and unfoldment takes place not only in the movement of the electromagnetic field but also in that of other fields (electronic, protonic, etc.). These fields obey quantum-mechanical laws, implying the properties of discontinuity and non-locality. The totality of the movement of enfoldment and unfoldment may go immensely beyond what has revealed itself to our observations. We call this totality by the name *holomovement.*"

Bohm believes that *the Implicate Order has to be extended into a multidimensional reality;* in other words, the holomovement endlessly enfolds and unfolds into infinite dimensionality. Within this milieu there are independent sub-totalities (such as physical elements and human entities) with relative autonomy. The layers of the Implicate Order can go deeper and deeper to the ultimately unknown. It is this "unknown and undescribable totality" that Bohm calls the holomovement. The holomovement is the "fundamental ground of all matter."

http://www.bizcharts.com/stoa_del_sol/plenum/plenum_3.html

Two variations of a Calabi-Yau Manifold: A mathematical depiction
of a 6-dimensional hyperdimensional enfolded space. According to M-theory,
if reality consists of 10 dimensions, and we experience 3 dimensions of space
plus 1 dimension of time (4), where are the missing 6 dimensions? It's believed
the missing 6 dimensions are extremely small and enfolded within the 4 perceivable
dimensions. Higher dimensional realities of light/sound are here within our very being.

 

[Lionchild]

Whether you cut your hair or not, its really not about appearence, but what you know more about the core principles. Once you learn the basics, the rest will fall into place. I made the mistake at first of trying to have a good appearence above all else, and paid the price for it. Wearing a dastaar, keeping hair, or wearing all k's is not the main aspect of sikhi, nor the main image. It has more to do about how you act towards others, and your connection with the creator.