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Gurus Could Nanak Be the Krishna of Dwaapar Yug?

Discussion in 'History of Sikhism' started by rabjot_singh@yahoo.co.in, Oct 22, 2008.

  1. rabjot_singh@yahoo.co.in

    rabjot_singh@yahoo.co.in
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    Could the light in Lord Krishna & Guru Nanak be the same. Read the verses from granth sahib. These verses praise guru nanak as a supreme messenger of god.

    त्रेतै तै माणिओ रामु रघुवंसु कहाइओ ॥
    In the Silver Age of Traytaa Yuga, You were called Raam of the Raghu dynasty.
    दुआपुरि क्रिसन मुरारि कंसु किरतारथु कीओ ॥
    In the Brass Age of Dwaapur Yuga, You were Krishna; You killed Mur the demon and saved Kans.
    उग्रसैण कउ राजु अभै भगतह जन दीओ ॥
    You blessed Ugrasain with a kingdom, and You blessed Your humble devotees with fearlessness.
    कलिजुगि प्रमाणु नानक गुरु अंगदु अमरु कहाइओ ॥
    In the Iron Age, the Dark Age of Kali Yuga, You are known and accepted as Guru Nanak, Guru Angad and Guru Amar Das.
    It is firmly believed that the light in each sikh guru was same thats why we sometimes refer guru gobind as 10th Nanak but can it be possible that Nanak was Krishna in Dwaapar yug. Express your views on this issue.
     
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  3. Astroboy

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    ਨਾਮ ਤੇਰੇ ਕੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਲਗਾਈ (Previously namjap)
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  4. Sikh80

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    Dear Rabjot ji,

    It would be very kind of you if full 'sabad' is posted.

    Thx. and regards,
     
  5. rabjot_singh@yahoo.co.in

    rabjot_singh@yahoo.co.in
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    Dear Sikh80 Ji,

    Here is the complete shabad for you.


    सवईए महले पहिले के १
    Swaiyas In Praise Of The First Mehl:

    सतिगुर प्रसादि ॥
    One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:

    इक मनि पुरखु धिआइ बरदाता ॥
    Meditate single-mindedly on the Primal Lord God, the Bestower of blessings.

    संत सहारु सदा बिखिआता ॥
    He is the Helper and Support of the Saints, manifest forever.

    तासु चरन ले रिदै बसावउ ॥
    Grasp His Feet and enshrine them in your heart.

    तउ परम गुरू नानक गुन गावउ ॥१॥
    Then, let us sing the Glorious Praises of the most exalted Guru Nanak. ||1||

    गावउ गुन परम गुरू सुख सागर दुरत निवारण सबद सरे ॥
    I sing the Glorious Praises of the most exalted Guru Nanak, the Ocean of peace, the Eradicator of sins, the sacred pool of the Shabad, the Word of God.

    गावहि गंभीर धीर मति सागर जोगी जंगम धिआनु धरे ॥
    The beings of deep and profound understanding, oceans of wisdom, sing of Him; the Yogis and wandering hermits meditate on Him.

    गावहि इंद्रादि भगत प्रहिलादिक आतम रसु जिनि जाणिओ ॥
    Indra and devotees like Prahlaad, who know the joy of the soul, sing of Him.

    कबि कल सुजसु गावउ गुर नानक राजु जोगु जिनि माणिओ ॥२॥
    KAL the poet sings the Sublime Praises of Guru Nanak, who enjoys mastery of Raja Yoga, the Yoga of meditation and success. ||2||

    गावहि जनकादि जुगति जोगेसुर हरि रस पूरन सरब कला ॥
    King Janak and the great Yogic heroes of the Lord's Way, sing the Praises of the All-powerful Primal Being, filled with the sublime essence of the Lord.

    गावहि सनकादि साध सिधादिक मुनि जन गावहि अछल छला ॥
    Sanak and Brahma's sons, the Saadhus and Siddhas, the silent sages and humble servants of the Lord sing the Praises of Guru Nanak, who cannot be deceived by the great deceiver.

    गावै गुण धोमु अटल मंडलवै भगति भाइ रसु जाणिओ ॥
    Dhoma the seer and Dhroo, whose realm is unmoving, sing the Glorious Praises of Guru Nanak, who knows the ecstasy of loving devotional worship.

    कबि कल सुजसु गावउ गुर नानक राजु जोगु जिनि माणिओ ॥३॥
    KAL the poet sings the Sublime Praises of Guru Nanak, who enjoys mastery of Raja Yoga. ||3||

    गावहि कपिलादि आदि जोगेसुर अपर्मपर अवतार वरो ॥
    Kapila and the other Yogis sing of Guru Nanak. He is the Avataar, the Incarnation of the Infinite Lord.

    गावै जमदगनि परसरामेसुर कर कुठारु रघु तेजु हरिओ ॥
    Parasraam the son of Jamdagan, whose axe and powers were taken away by Raghuvira, sing of Him.

    उधौ अक्रूरु बिदरु गुण गावै सरबातमु जिनि जाणिओ ॥
    Udho, Akrur and Bidur sing the Glorious Praises of Guru Nanak, who knows the Lord, the Soul of All.

    कबि कल सुजसु गावउगुर नानक राजु जोगु जिनि माणिओ ॥४॥
    KAL the poet sings the Sublime Praises of Guru Nanak, who enjoys mastery of Raja Yoga. ||4||

    Page 1390
    गावहि गुण बरन चारि खट दरसन ब्रहमादिक सिमरंथि गुना ॥
    The four castes and the six Shaastras sing His Glorious Praises; Brahma and the others contemplate His Virtues.

    गावै गुण सेसु सहस जिहबा रस आदि अंति लिव लागि धुना ॥
    The thousand-tongued serpent king sings His Praises with delight, remaining lovingly attached to Him.

    गावै गुण महादेउ बैरागी जिनि धिआन निरंतरि जाणिओ ॥
    Shiva, detached and beyond desire, sings the Glorious Praises of Guru Nanak, who knows the Lord's endless meditation.

    कबि कल सुजसु गावउ गुर नानक राजु जोगु जिनि माणिओ ॥५॥
    KAL the poet sings the Sublime Praises of Guru Nanak, who enjoys mastery of Raja Yoga. ||5||

    राजु जोगु माणिओ बसिओ निरवैरु रिदंतरि ॥
    He mastered Raja Yoga, and enjoys sovereignty over both worlds; the Lord, beyond hate and revenge, is enshrined within His Heart.

    स्रिसटि सगल उधरी नामि ले तरिओ निरंतरि ॥
    The whole world is saved, and carried across, chanting the Naam, the Name of the Lord.

    गुण गावहि सनकादि आदि जनकादि जुगह लगि ॥
    Sanak and Janak and the others sing His Praises, age after age.

    धंनि धंनि गुरु धंनि जनमु सकयथु भलौ जगि ॥
    Blessed, blessed, blessed and fruitful is the sublime birth of the Guru into the world.

    पाताल पुरी जैकार धुनि कबि जन कल वखाणिओ ॥
    Even in the nether regions, His Victory is celebrated; so says KAL the poet.

    हरि नाम रसिक नानक गुर राजु जोगु तै माणिओ ॥६॥
    You are blessed with the Nectar of the Lord's Name, O Guru Nanak; You have mastered Raja Yoga, and enjoy sovereignty over both worlds. ||6||

    सतजुगि तै माणिओ छलिओ बलि बावन भाइओ ॥
    In the Golden Age of Sat Yuga, You were pleased to deceive Baal the king, in the form of a dwarf.

    त्रेतै तै माणिओ रामु रघुवंसु कहाइओ ॥
    In the Silver Age of Traytaa Yuga, You were called Raam of the Raghu dynasty.

    दुआपुरि क्रिसन मुरारि कंसु किरतारथु कीओ ॥
    In the Brass Age of Dwaapur Yuga, You were Krishna; You killed Mur the demon and saved Kans.

    उग्रसैण कउ राजु अभै भगतह जन दीओ ॥
    You blessed Ugrasain with a kingdom, and You blessed Your humble devotees with fearlessness.

    कलिजुगि प्रमाणु नानक गुरु अंगदु अमरु कहाइओ ॥
    In the Iron Age, the Dark Age of Kali Yuga, You are known and accepted as Guru Nanak, Guru Angad and Guru Amar Das.

    स्री गुरू राजु अबिचलु अटलु आदि पुरखि फुरमाइओ ॥७॥
    The sovereign rule of the Great Guru is unchanging and permanent, according the Command of the Primal Lord God. ||7||

    गुण गावै रविदासु भगतु जैदेव त्रिलोचन ॥
    His Glorious Praises are sung by the devotees Ravi Daas, Jai Dayv and Trilochan.

    नामा भगतु कबीरु सदा गावहि सम लोचन ॥
    The devotees Naam Dayv and Kabeer praise Him continually, knowing Him to be even-eyed.

    भगतु बेणि गुण रवै सहजि आतम रंगु माणै ॥
    The devotee Baynee sings His Praises; He intuitively enjoys the ecstasy of the soul.

    जोग धिआनि गुर गिआनि बिना प्रभ अवरु न जाणै ॥
    He is the Master of Yoga and meditation, and the spiritual wisdom of the Guru; He knows none other except God.

    सुखदेउ परीख्यतु गुण रवै गोतम रिखि जसु गाइओ ॥
    Sukh Dayv and Preekhyat sing His Praises, and Gautam the rishi sings His Praise.

    कबि कल सुजसु नानक गुर नित नवतनु जगि छाइओ ॥८॥
    Says KAL the poet, the ever-fresh praises of Guru Nanak are spread throughout the world. ||8||

    गुण गावहि पायालि भगत नागादि भुयंगम ॥
    In the nether worlds, His Praises are sung by the devotees like Shaysh-naag in serpent form.

    महादेउ गुण रवै सदा जोगी जति जंगम ॥
    Shiva, the Yogis and the wandering hermits sing His Praises forever.

    गुण गावै मुनि ब्यासु जिनि बेद ब्याकरण बीचारिअ ॥
    Vyaas the silent sage, who studied the Vedas and its grammar, sings His Praise.

    ब्रहमा गुण उचरै जिनि हुकमि सभ स्रिसटि सवारीअ ॥
    His Praises are sung by Brahma, who created the entire universe by God's Command.

    ब्रहमंड खंड पूरन ब्रहमु गुण निरगुण सम जाणिओ ॥
    God fills the galaxies and realms of the universe; He is known to be the same, manifest and unmanifest.

    जपु कल सुजसु नानक गुर सहजु जोगु जिनि माणिओ ॥९॥
    KAL chants the Sublime Praises of Guru Nanak, who enjoys mastery of Yoga. ||9||

    गुण गावहि नव नाथ धंनि गुरु साचि समाइओ ॥
    The nine masters of Yoga sing His Praises; blessed is the Guru, who is merged into the True Lord.

    मांधाता गुण रवै जेन चक्रवै कहाइओ ॥
    Maandhaataa, who called himself ruler of all the world, sings His Praises.

    गुण गावै बलि राउ सपत पातालि बसंतौ ॥
    Bal the king, dwelling in the seventh underworld, sings His Praises.

    भरथरि गुण उचरै सदा गुर संगि रहंतौ ॥
    Bhart'har, abiding forever with Gorakh, his guru, sings His Praises.

    दूरबा परूरउ अंगरै गुर नानक जसु गाइओ ॥
    Doorbaasaa, King Puro and Angra sing the Praises of Guru Nanak.

    कबि कल सुजसु नानक गुर घटि घटि सहजि समाइओ ॥१०॥
    Says KAL the poet, the Sublime Praises of Guru Nanak intuitively permeate each and every heart. ||10||
     
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  6. spnadmin

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  7. Randip Singh

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    This business was explained to me years ago, as well with the raindrop analogy. If you imagine God being that Ocean, and our Guru's and other holy people like Krishna as rain drops falling into that ocean, they become merged and intertwined with the ocean and yet they are not the same ocean. In the sense they are all rain drops, all made of water but every raindrop is different. In this sense Krishna and Guru Nanak are different!
     
  8. Sikh80

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    Dear Rabjot Ji,

    Thanks for posting the sabad. It is from Bhatts Bani and Bhattts Bani is approved bani. Thus whatever is stated should be taken as correct; taking it as the intention of Gurus sahib that they wanted to convey this to their sikhs.This is my opinion.

    Regards


     
    #7 Sikh80, Oct 25, 2008
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2008
  9. vijaydeep Singh

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    Gurfateh

    Respected Brthren,

    Well "In all there is light,that(God) is that light,with that's glory all is enlightened."

    It is from Arti under Dhanasari Mahal Pahla(holy verse of God unto First Master).

    So there is one soul in all creation.That soul is creator.So be it Bhai Rabjot Singh,Be is insect like vijaydeep,be it Osama,be it bush,be it First Master,Be it Lord Krishna,be it Lord Jesus ,Be it Prophet Mohamad(SWAS).

    In all does Akal exists so no differance between Lord Krishana or First Master.

    Akal Bless.
     
  10. rabjot_singh@yahoo.co.in

    rabjot_singh@yahoo.co.in
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    Dear aad ji,

    Consider this information. You might find it insighful.

    Coming of Nanak Predicted in Vedas

    Perhaps more than any Prophet in history Nanak's coming on Earth was predicted profusely with remarkable accuracy as recorded in some detail below. This has resulted after long and arduous research into the ancient doctrines many dating thousands of years before his actual birth. These are numerically listed below for ease of reference, not necessarily in chronological order. The Vedas and Puranas in which these direct references have been found recorded, are known to be amongst the oldest chronicles in the world. These references are as under:

    1. In the Hindu epic the RIG VEDA
    (i) In Mandala 7, Ush 5, Mantra 5 and Chapter 6
    "Bee chakram prithoi aishai ta khestraaeh Vishnu mansai das sayaan
    throvaah so asaya keeryo janaas oeroo khashatra so janama
    chakaar (8)"

    meaning
    "when in the world the sinful ways will be on the rise and noble behavior will vanish, as the disappearance of the moon when on its wane on the darkest night, there will appear Vishnu as a prominent Prophet from the Keshatra Clan and will manifest in consecutive form through 10 Prophets to bring back the ways of virtue to the ailing world."
    (ii) In the same Vedas, in another part even in the name NANAK and the clan he belongs to is recorded thus -
    "Sri Nanak gureng vareng saklaath heythoo. Heitha samasth jagathaa va veithee kaetheng"
    meaning
    "For the preaching of religious ways and the earning of good karma, there will manifest Guru NANAK from the clan of the Veithees"
    (iii) At another position in the same Vedas is entered under Mandala 1 Soothak 5 and in the 7th Mantra thus -
    "Eeth eethei Vishnu reinn chakramei threihaa nathathei patham"
    meaning
    "The Prophet in the Kali Yuga will manifest three attributes. As an Avtar propounding Truth, as a Householder establishing family life and at the same time be a Raja Yogi"

    2. The YUJAR VEDA
    As in the RIG VEDA quoted above, in the YUJAR VEDA also the Prophet in the Kali Yuga will manifest three main characteristics thus -
    "Vishnu bee chakrageih treithaa neikthei patham samudhseiaa paaeh
    serei swahaa"

    meaning
    "Vishnu will appear again, manifesting three main characteristics, Avtarhood, Householder family life and be a Rajah Yogi as well"
    Although in the above two quotations the name of Nanak does not directly appear, reference to being a householder family man, would point to him because he was among the first few Avtars (prophets) who was married and begetting children.
    Incidentally in Hindu mythology, VISHNU is the primordial Godhead Prophet, who incarnates on Earth taking many differing forms and the ensuing names thereto.

    3. In the BHAVEKHATH PURANA
    "BHAVEKHATH" means "future foretelling". There are numerous places in this famous Hindu epic where the advent of Guru NANAK is directly alluded to. These instances are listed hereunder -
    (i)
    "Theraa bhaareng thereshtwah keli krethem maha krethyaa. Aeveng vaee
    tharam parchaariang bhavekhthee thaa kalau. Thatha vei
    loka rakheiaartheng maleishana naas heithwei paschmeitlheng subh
    theisay vath wensei chei Nanaka naam nach rekhiang brahem
    geaanaik manas bhavekhet kaloe skunth thatar verth kaleaah har (35)."

    meaning
    "In the Kali Yuga when goodness in the world is deteriorating there
    will appear a Prophet from the Beithi clan named NANAK
    who from birth will be endowed with extra-ordinary spiritual power.
    He will preach on the nobility of life and the eradication of
    the sinful ways"

    (ii) In another portion of this book the following short cogent quotation supplies further pertinent information on the advent of Nanak
    "Guru thaa Brahma, Guru raa Vishnu, Guru raa dev maheshra saakhyaar
    Parbrehem Thasmei NANAK nameh"

    meaning
    "The Guru of the prophets, Brahma, Vishnu and Shiv ji is God
    almighty himself. This very Creator will manifest itself as a human,
    in the form of one whose name will be NANAK

    Note the clarity and explicitness in which the coming of Nanak is predicted.
    (iii) Further down in this book is recorded the following detailed assertiveness about Nanak and the type of mission and work he shall perform. It appears to emanate from the Godhead itself.
    "The Kali Yuga shall dawn on Earth with radical manifestation of destruction of Karma and Dharma to such an extent that every situation shall be colored by sinful activities. At that distressful moment, the Creator shall send down a spiritual luminary in the form of NANAK from the Khatria clan. He will spread the message of NAAM, the Holy life Force, by introducing the primacy of meditation and thus washing clean the sinful ways by the waters of love."
    Note the beautiful and comprehensive description of the happening.
    (iv) There is yet another quotation from this same Bhavekhath Purana indicative of Nanak and the 9 prophets that consecutively followed his lineage : -
    "When in the world there is the deterioration of noble Dharma, then Vishnu will reincarnate through 10 Prophethoods and will preach on the universal and omnipotent value of NAAM. (the Holy Life Force)"

    4. In DHIGVAJEH PURANA
    "During the reign of the 8 Muslim rulers, Vishnu will incarnate in 10 human forms and after them will appear a (Mona) SILENT Guru (meaning the SGGS, the Sikh Scripture) who will only respond where the response is solicited."
    The word SILENT is of great importance - it refers to the Sikh Scriptural Book (SGGS). This is the first time in the history of Religion that a Sacred Book was elevated to the status of a Prophet. Unlike a Prophet in body form with the inherent capacity to make utterances, a Book has to be categorized as being basically 'Silent'. This is indeed a startling revelation, pinpointing the coming into the world of a (mona) Silent Guru, thousands of years before the actual occurrence.
    The eight Muslim Rulers were 1. - Sultan Lodhi, 2. - Babar, 3. - Humanyuh, 4. - Akbar, 5 - Jehangir, 6 - Shah Jahan, 7 - Aurangzeb, 8 - Bahadur Shah, These precisely were the Rulers in India during the period in which the 10th Sikh Guru came into being. This further emphasizes the authenticity of the revelation and the happening.

    5. Through PATANJALI the great Indian (Hindu) Sage
    Patanjali, one of the top Indian Yogis of old, came 2180 years before Guru Nanak. In his Ashram while lecturing on the Prophets of the Kali Yuga, the Iron Age, he singled out Guru Nanak as the one who will be outstanding. When asked what will be his prime mantra, He replied. -
    "Wahyanti karyanti jathputi athak etwaha brahamadeya, teisah Gur et WAHEGURU"
    meaning
    "He will use a unique single syllable mantra which has not been utilized before at any Age or Era. This will be WAHEGURU."
    Waheguru mantra, which means "Lord of Wonderment" has since been popularised by Guru Nanak and all the nine other Sikh Gurus that followed him.

    6. In VISHNU PURANA
    In the VISHNU PURANA there is recorded an interesting dialogue between VISHNU and a famous Rishi UMBREEK. Vishnu is said to have informed Umbreek that he will once again take birth in the Kali Yuga. The Rishi then enquired when about will that be and what will be your name then? Vishnu replied that this will happen when the Kali Yuga has proceeded for 4500 years and that I will take birth in the Shatri Sooraj Bansi clan, when I will be named, NANAK.
    In this same Purana it is further recorded: -
    "Sri Nanak santang saageaami
    Sri asech, sri asech, sri asech, sri asech"

    meaning
    "Sri NANAK will once again appear in the world in a variety of incarnations; this is for sure, this is for sure, this is for sure."
    Computing the date of Guru Nanak's birth from the above mentioned figure that took place when the Kali Yuga had proceeded for 4550 years, reckoning the total durations of Kali Yuga now to be about 5090 old. It is to be noted that this figure of 4550 is pretty close to the 4500 years predicted by VISHNU JI above. Incidentally, the clan in which Guru Nanak was born was also known as a Shatri Sooraj Bansi indicated above.
    CONCLUSION
    From the above it is evident that Guru Nanak must have had the largest number of premonitional references to his coming compared to the advent of the other Prophets in all the various Ages and Epochs. Therefore the Prophet Guru Nanak's advent into the world is indeed of millennial significance to even the coming future times.
    The word NANAK is a combination of two Sanskrit terms. 'Na" and 'Anak'. The meaning attached to these words is "Not-but-One". The message conveyed by the Guru's name and the education imparted by him through the Sacred Scriptual verses, usually commence with the words "Ik Oengkar". This phrase too means Non-but-One. One God only.
     
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  11. rabjot_singh@yahoo.co.in

    rabjot_singh@yahoo.co.in
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    Dear Sikh80 ji,

    Yes thats true whatever is written in Granth sahib whether the bani of Nanak or ravidaas we have to accept that banis as the words of lord.
     
  12. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    Respected rabjot_singh@yahoo.com.in ji

    You possess an amazing amount of information about the incarnations of Krishna, not to mention a remarkable grasp of Sanskrit. I am always interested in careful and incremental documentation. Mostly, I am here to moderate the thread and keep the discussion going.

    My awe for your intellect at the same time is tempered by my basic tendency to focus on the voice of our Gurus as heard in the shabad and the shabad as given by our Gurus. Maybe that doesn't make sense -- however, my attachment to Sikhism is very simple, maybe simple-minded. Guru Nanak's Bani was sacred to me before I had read any of this, and would continue to be sacred had I not read any of this. If Guru Nanak had been the son of a shoemaker it would change nothing. Forgive this idiot and moorath.

    Satnamji
     
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  13. rabjot_singh@yahoo.co.in

    rabjot_singh@yahoo.co.in
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    Dear aadji,

    You seems to possess a great analytical mind. I hope its not too personal and i can ask you that -

    1) What religion you were originally from?
    2) What has been the cause of attraction towards sikhism or teachings of nanak?
     
  14. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    Vijaydeep ji, I tend to accept your focus. And in so many words,

    ਤੁਧੁ ਆਪੇ ਆਪੁ ਉਪਾਇਆ ॥
    thudhh aapae aap oupaaeiaa ||
    You Yourself created the Universe;


    ਦੂਜਾ ਖੇਲੁ ਕਰਿ ਦਿਖਲਾਇਆ ॥
    dhoojaa khael kar dhikhalaaeiaa ||
    You created the play of duality, and staged it.


    ਸਭੁ ਸਚੋ ਸਚੁ ਵਰਤਦਾ ਜਿਸੁ ਭਾਵੈ ਤਿਸੈ ਬੁਝਾਇ ਜੀਉ ॥੨੦॥
    sabh sacho sach varathadhaa jis bhaavai thisai bujhaae jeeo ||20||
    The Truest of the True is pervading everywhere; He instructs those with whom He is pleased. ||20||


    ਗੁਰ ਪਰਸਾਦੀ ਪਾਇਆ ॥
    gur parasaadhee paaeiaa ||
    By Guru's Grace, I have found God.


    ਤਿਥੈ ਮਾਇਆ ਮੋਹੁ ਚੁਕਾਇਆ ॥
    thithhai maaeiaa mohu chukaaeiaa ||
    By His Grace, I have shed emotional attachment to Maya.


    ਕਿਰਪਾ ਕਰਿ ਕੈ ਆਪਣੀ ਆਪੇ ਲਏ ਸਮਾਇ ਜੀਉ ॥੨੧॥
    kirapaa kar kai aapanee aapae leae samaae jeeo ||21||
    Showering His Mercy, He has blended me into Himself. ||21||


    ਗੋਪੀ ਨੈ ਗੋਆਲੀਆ ॥
    gopee nai goaaleeaa ||
    You are the Gopis, the milk-maids of Krishna; You are the sacred river Jamunaa; You are Krishna, the herdsman.


    ਤੁਧੁ ਆਪੇ ਗੋਇ ਉਠਾਲੀਆ ॥
    thudhh aapae goe outhaaleeaa ||
    You Yourself support the world.


    ਹੁਕਮੀ ਭਾਂਡੇ ਸਾਜਿਆ ਤੂੰ ਆਪੇ ਭੰਨਿ ਸਵਾਰਿ ਜੀਉ ॥੨੨॥
    hukamee bhaanddae saajiaa thoon aapae bhann savaar jeeo ||22||
    By Your Command, human beings are fashioned. You Yourself embellish them, and then again destroy them. ||22||


    ਜਿਨ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਸਿਉ ਚਿਤੁ ਲਾਇਆ ॥
    jin sathigur sio chith laaeiaa ||
    Those who have focused their consciousness on the True Guru


    ਤਿਨੀ ਦੂਜਾ ਭਾਉ ਚੁਕਾਇਆ ॥
    thinee dhoojaa bhaao chukaaeiaa ||
    have rid themselves of the love of duality.


    ਨਿਰਮਲ ਜੋਤਿ ਤਿਨ ਪ੍ਰਾਣੀਆ ਓਇ ਚਲੇ ਜਨਮੁ ਸਵਾਰਿ ਜੀਉ ॥੨੩॥
    niramal joth thin praaneeaa oue chalae janam savaar jeeo ||23||
    The light of those mortal beings is immaculate. They depart after redeeming their lives. ||23||


    ਤੇਰੀਆ ਸਦਾ ਸਦਾ ਚੰਗਿਆਈਆ ॥ਮੈ ਰਾਤਿ ਦਿਹੈ ਵਡਿਆਈਆਂ ॥
    thaereeaa sadhaa sadhaa changiaaeeaa || mai raath dhihai vaddiaaeeaaan ||
    Forever and ever, night and day, I praise the Greatness of Your Goodness.


    ਅਣਮੰਗਿਆ ਦਾਨੁ ਦੇਵਣਾ ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਸਚੁ ਸਮਾਲਿ ਜੀਉ ॥੨੪॥੧॥
    anamangiaa dhaan dhaevanaa kahu naanak sach samaal jeeo ||24||1||
    You bestow Your Gifts, even if we do not ask for them. Says Nanak, contemplate the True Lord. ||24||1||

    Guru Nanak in SriRaag
    Ang 73

    The praise of the first 5 Gurus by the Bhats for example, Kal on Ang 1390 and Nal on Ang 1399) rose up from their belief in devotion, their bhakti, to One, All Pervading Lord. Their sawaaye are eulogies to these Gurus. Guru Arjan Dev included their Bani in the Adi Granth by way of recognizing that they, the bhats or bhagats if one prefers, shared with the Gurus the contemplation of the truth of this all pervading Divine Lord and the truth of His Name. So I place my focus on this. One can stray by testing the truth of Sri Guru Granth in stressing the divine lineaage of Guru Nanak. Again, forgive me. This must sound harsh.
     
  15. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    Veer ji

    You can send me a pm. Not too personal.
     
  16. rabjot_singh@yahoo.co.in

    rabjot_singh@yahoo.co.in
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    Dear Vijaydeepsingh ji,

    I do agree with you that the same light is present in everyone. Everyone does have the potential to be great but only few reach those heights of oneness with god. That candle is there but whosoever lights that candle becomes enlightened like Nanak , buddha, krishna, etc

    It's a matter of realizing that supreme power within you. There are many who remain caught in the web of birth and death and never escape it unless they find a true guru.

    So you have to understand that conditions are there for most of the people but some become men of god while others a true representation of satan.

    So there is a huge difference in having that light and realizing that light. That makes a world of difference.
     
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  17. vijaydeep Singh

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    Gurfateh

    A few words on Holy Puranas and Holy Vedas among other old Holy Texts.

    Unlike us where we have standardised vErsion of Shri Guru Granth Sahib,Shri Dasham Granth Sahib,Bhai Gurdas Ji Varan among others.We do not have such things in Older Text mentioned above.
     
  18. Sikh80

    Sikh80
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    The lines and tuks that have been taken by Rabjot singh ji are correct as these have been taken from Granth sahib. This is from the bani of Bhats who have stated things in the eulogy of the Gurus. To what extent we should take the eulogizer, in literal fashion should be governed by the opinion of scholars and interpretors who have devoted their lives in interpreting things for us. If we start presuming things that may have chances of making the interpretation that does not go well with the sikh philosophy, we run the risk of going against the accepted position. While holding the things stated in the Granth sahib to be ‘Lord’s word’ we should not lose sight of the perspective in which these have been stated.

    It shall be worthwhile to note that Gurus have never stated themselves to be the incaranation of Vishnu and nor is it the stated position in Sikhism. Sikhism even does not, for reasons, accept the Vedas that are stated to have contained the God’s word as well. Sikhism also does not accept any teachings of Gita that is the sum total of Vedas so far as the soul and Brahm are concerned. Gita is stated to be pronounced by Lord Krishna. If Guru Ji were Krishna they would not have rejected the philosophy contained in Vedas or Gita as one word of God cannot be contradicted by the same divine entity.[personal views]

    It is the devotion and love of ‘Kal’ the Bhatt who had stated these things in eulogy and love for the Gurus in own language. I do take the things in this perspective.

    I again take the recourse of the interpretation of Dr. Sahib Singh ji and again express my utter failure to translate them into English. My sincere apologies for this.


    ਦੁਆਪੁਰਿ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਮੁਰਾਰਿ ਕੰਸੁ ਕਿਰਤਾਰਥੁ ਕੀਓ ॥ ਉਗ੍ਰਸੈਣ ਕਉ ਰਾਜੁ ਅਭੈ ਭਗਤਹ ਜਨ ਦੀਓ ॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 1390}
    pd ArQ:- duAwpuir—duAwpur (jug) ivc [ murwir—(mur-Air) mur (dYNq) dw vYrI [ ikrqwrQu—sPl, mukq [ augRsYx—mQurw dw rwjw, kMs dw ipqw; kMs ies ƒ q^q qoN lwh ky rwjw bx bYTw sI; sRI ik®Sn jI ny kMs ƒ mwr ky muV augRsYx ƒ rwj dy id`qw sI [ ABY—ABY-pd, inrBYqw [ Bgqh jn—BgqW ƒ [
    ArQ:- (hy gurU nwnk!) duAwpur jug ivc ik®Sn murwr BI (qUM hI sYN), qUM hI kMs ƒ (mwr ky) mukq kIqw sI (qUM hI) augRsYx ƒ (mQurw dw) rwj Aqy Awpxy Bgq jnW ƒ inrBYqw b^SI sI (Bwv, hy gurU nwnk! myry vwsqy qW qUM hI hYN sRI ik®Sn) [
    ਕਲਿਜੁਗਿ ਪ੍ਰਮਾਣੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰੁ ਅੰਗਦੁ ਅਮਰੁ ਕਹਾਇਓ ॥ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਰਾਜੁ ਅਬਿਚਲੁ ਅਟਲੁ ਆਦਿ ਪੁਰਖਿ ਫੁਰਮਾਇਓ ॥੭॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 1390}
    pd ArQ:- kiljuig—kljug ivc [ pRmwxu—pRmwixk, mMinAw-prmMinAw hoieAw, smrQw vwlw [ nwnk—hy (gurU) nwnk! sRI gurU rwju—sRI gurU (nwnk dyv jI) dw rwj [ Aibclu—nWh ih`lx vwlw, p`kw, iQr [ Awid puriK—Awid purK ny, Akwl purK ny [
    ArQ:- hy gurU nwnk! kljug ivc (BI qUM hI) smrQw vwlw hYN, (qUM hI Awpxy Awp ƒ) gurU AMgd qy gurU Amrdws AKvwieAw hY [ (ieh qW) Akwl purK ny (hI) hukm dy r`iKAw hY ik sRI gurU (nwnk dyv jI) dw rwj sdw-iQr qy At`l hY [7[


    One should feel free to have one’s views. These are my views and may not be reliable for any reference. One may kindly take the informed decision as I do not intend to make it controversial nor enter into any sort of controversy in this sensitive issue.

    Note: I am a Sikh by Birth and did not have any other religion earlier.
    E & O E
    To The Moderators
     
  19. Astroboy

    Astroboy Malaysia
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    ਨਾਮ ਤੇਰੇ ਕੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਲਗਾਈ (Previously namjap)
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    For that matter Raagmala is also part of SGGS. But what is Raagmala, it is a string of raags and their categories in which they belong. One has to understand this in its own fashion. Still it is our Guru.

    Guru Ji says,

    ਅਕਲਿ ਏਹ ਆਖੀਐ ਅਕਲਿ ਗਵਾਈਐ ਬਾਦਿ
    अकलि एह न आखीऐ अकलि गवाईऐ बादि ॥
    Akal eh na ākẖī▫ai akal gavā▫ī▫ai bāḏ.
    Wisdom which leads to arguments is not called wisdom.

    ਅਕਲੀ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਸੇਵੀਐ ਅਕਲੀ ਪਾਈਐ ਮਾਨੁ
    अकली साहिबु सेवीऐ अकली पाईऐ मानु ॥
    Aklī sāhib sevī▫ai aklī pā▫ī▫ai mān.
    Wisdom leads us to serve our Lord and Master; through wisdom, honor is obtained.

    ਅਕਲੀ ਪੜ੍ਹ੍ਹਿ ਕੈ ਬੁਝੀਐ ਅਕਲੀ ਕੀਚੈ ਦਾਨੁ
    अकली पड़्हि कै बुझीऐ अकली कीचै दानु ॥
    Aklī paṛĥ kai bujẖī▫ai aklī kīcẖai ḏān.
    Wisdom does not come by reading textbooks; wisdom inspires us to give in charity.

    ਨਾਨਕੁ ਆਖੈ ਰਾਹੁ ਏਹੁ ਹੋਰਿ ਗਲਾਂ ਸੈਤਾਨੁ ॥੧॥
    नानकु आखै राहु एहु होरि गलां सैतानु ॥१॥
    Nānak ākẖai rāhu ehu hor galāʼn saiṯān. ||1||
    Says Nanak, this is the Path; other things lead to Satan. ||1||
     
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    #18 Astroboy, Oct 27, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 5, 2016
  20. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    Hmmm!
     
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    #19 spnadmin, Oct 28, 2008
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  21. Sikh80

    Sikh80
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    Given below is an Article taken from other thread 'Bhat bani- A view point. It should be an interesting read.

    Bhatt-Bani in the Holy Granth Sahib

    Dr. Wazir Singh*

    * Professor of Philosophy and Religion (Retd.) Address: 11/71 Punjabi Bagh West, New Delhi 110 026.


    The editorial pattern of Guru Granth Sahib is the gift of the illustrious Guru Arjun Dev. The current volume of the Granth (total pages 1430) follows in the main the editorial scheme set by the Fifth Guru, with addition of Guru Tegh Bahadur’s Bani-compositions including his verses in Raag Jaijavanti. The first recension popularly known as the Adi-Granth comprised three broad divisions: (a) the liturgical section with prayers of daily routine; (b) the musical section that is by far the largest part (1340 pages of the present edition); (c) the miscellaneous part of compositions which are not set to Raag measures but dwell on various poetical metres. The contributors of the Granth include six Gurus, 15 Bhagats, 12 Bards (Bhatts) plus one Dum, a couple of associates of the Gurus, making a total of 36 authors.
    Place of Bhatt Bani

    The verses composed by eleven Bhatts in the Swayya metre are to be found in the Miscellaneous division of the Granth, which starts with Sahaskriti Saloks, followed by Gatha, Phunhas, Chaubolas and Saloks of Bhagat Kabir and Shiekh Farid. These are followed by Guru Arjun’s 20 Swayyas and 123 Swayyas by the Bhatts. After these, Saloks left over from the Vars are placed including 57 Saloks of the Ninth Guru, followed by Mundavani and another Salok by Guru Arjun Dev. The Granth ends with Raagmala that bears no one’s name as its author. One Bhatt, viz, Balwand, together with his associate Satta the Dum, composed Ramkali Var, which praises the first Five Gurus as also refers to Mata Khivi, consort of Guru Angad, by name. This and a few other historical allusions are available in the Bhatt verses.

    The Number of Bhatts

    How many Bhatts composed panegyrics glorifying the Gurus? Scholars are not in agreement about their count. Some believe they were 17, while others hold them to be eleven. The names of the Bhatts are not explicitly stated at the head of their respective hymns, unlike the case of Bhagat Bani. But the internal evidence of the verses and their styles, as also the numerical figures point to the count eleven. Some of the names do appear in the verses, for instance Bhika, Kirat, Jalap, Mathura and Haribans. Bhatt Kalsahar mentions his own name in several verses, but sometimes he calls himself ‘Kal’ and ‘Tal’. At least in six verses in reference to Guru Ram Das, the word ‘Kalchare’ also signifies Kalsahar. In addition to these 11 Bhatts, the author of Ramkali Var ‘Balwand’ (in association with Satta) is also considered to be a Bhatt-poet.

    Activities of the Bhatts

    It is well known that the Bhatts used to keep records of their contemporary events and their Bhatt-Vahis are believed to be quite reliable in this respect. Their descendants are still active at several centres of pilgrim interest. Many of the Bhatts were poets who roamed about the country and instantly composed verses and hymns, impressing the audience. A group of Bhatts, possibly headed by Kalsahar, visited Goindval, as indicated by Nalh in one of his verses. The visit occurred during the pontificate of Guru Arjun, around 1581-82. Before this, the Bhatts were in search of some true saint, as is evident in one of Bhikha’s verses, which expressly states that for one whole year the group moved from place to place but did not find any spiritual guide to their satisfaction. Bhikha confirms this in his praise of Guru Amar Das.

    Their Vaishnav Faith

    The Bhatts belonged to Brahmin community and were followers of the Vaishnav faith. They held Sri Ram and Sri Krishna as Divine incarnates, and on meeting the Gurus in Punjab, believed that Guru Nanak and his four successor Gurus were Ram and Krishna reborn. Bhatt Kalsahar says, during Satyuga it was Guru Nanak who overpowered Bali; in the Treta-age, Nanak was Ram of the Raghu clan; in Dupar Nanak was in the form of Krishna who delivered Kans. And in the Kali-yuga “You are called Nanak, Angad and Amar Das”. He adds: “Your praises are sung by Ravidas, Jaidev and Trilochan. Also by Kabir, Namdev and Beni, in addition to innumerable Yogis, Jangams, Vyas and Brahma. Guru Nanak placed his hand on the forehead of Bhai Lehna who became Guru Angad.

    Swayya: Their Favourite Metre

    The Bhatt-Bani as recorded in Guru Granth Sahib, is in the poetic metre ‘Swayya’. It is a non-Raag measure and has its own variations of style. At least three chhand-metres are mentioned in the Swayyas: Radd (in Nalh’s praise of Guru Ram Das, 5th swayya); Jholna (Nalh’s 13th swayya); and Sortha (in Kalsahar’s praise of Guru Arjun). The numerical arrangements of Swayyas is indicative of the authorship of particular verses and also of the change of style in a swayya. As for the names of Bhatts, interesting rhyme in pronunciation is noted, for instance Kal (Kalsahar), Salh, Bhalh, Nalh, Balh. Other names that do not fall in this category are Jalap, Kirat, Bhikha, Gayand, Mathura and Haribans. All of them, however, make use of the Swayya metre for their verses.

    Language and style

    The language of Bhatt-Bani is a mixture, deriving its vocabulary from Sanskrit and employing Bhagat-Bani diction. The Bhatts used to sing odes (Vars) to brave fighters and eventually developed a specific lingo known as Bhattashri. Some of their verses recorded in Guru Granth Sahib are easy to follow by the Punjabi readership, but a large number of Swayyas are not that easy. Bhatt poets often indulge in exaggeration and use of glittering phraseology in their verses. Quite often two Bhatts follow each other in the same style. While entering their poetry in the Adi-Granth, the rules of Gurbani grammar and word-endings were applied, in order to bring the verses in line with the rest of Bani compositions. Some of the Swayyas clearly indicate that their authors were familiar with the Gurus’ and Bhagats’ phrases and vocabulary. Bhatt Gyand’s repeated use of ‘Waheguru’ in his verses is proof of the popularity of the term in the Bhatt period.

    In Praise of the Gurus

    One major contribution of Bhatt-Bani is the praises showered on the first Five Gurus. Kalsahar who composed a total of 54 Swayyas, devoted 10 of these to Guru Nanak whom he calls ‘Param’ (Supreme) Guru. According to Kalsahar, Guru Nanak was bestowed with both ‘Raj’ and ‘Yog’ and as such he enjoyed Raj-Jog which characterized all the rest of Gurus as well. Kalsahar composed ten Swayyas in praise of Guru Angad Dev, who attained to his height of spirituality as ‘Jagat Guru’ through contemplation of Naam. The Bhatt insists that by having ‘Darshan’ of the Guru, all sufferings vanish. Similarly, he pays tribute to Guru Amar Das who held all spiritual powers (riddhis and siddhis) by dint of Naam Bhagti. Passing on to Guru Ram Das, the poet refers to the pool of Nectar (Amrit-sar) established by the Fourth Guru. Kalsahar regards Guru Arjun as the harbinger of ‘Janak Raj’ in the region and the treasure of knowledge that is Guru-Bani.

    The Bhatt poets who sang encomiums to Guru Amar Das included Jalap, Kirat and Bhikha. Salh and Bhalh also put down one Swayya each in praise of the Third Guru. According to Kirat, God (Narain himself) descended on the earth for the salvation of humanity. Bhatt Kirat’s Swayya in reference to Guru Ram Das is quite popular among the Sikhs (starting with Hum Avgun Bharai). Nalh too chants his devotion to Guru Ram Das in his 16 Swayyas. He prays to the Guru for protection of his ‘lajj’ (honour). Gayand composed 13 Swayyas in praise of the Fourth Guru whom he believes to be incarnate of the Divine. His ‘Wah-Wah’ phrase is popularly recited by the Sikhs. Bhatt Mathura composed seven verses each in praise of Guru Ram Das and Guru Arjun Dev. His high devotion to the Gurus impresses the readers. The Divine Essence is absorbed in the Essence, culminating in the succession of Gurus. Guru Arjun, for him, is Hari himself. Similar sentiments are voiced in the compositions of other Bhatts.


    The paeans (praises) sung by the Bhatts are to be seen collectively. All of them are one in holding the Gurus as the Ship (Bohitha or Jahaaz) for ferrying people across the Sea of mundane existence. The Gurus are as ‘Paaras’ – The Philosopher’s Stone – whose touch turns base metal into gold. Guru Amar Das, says Kalsahar, has the sign of Lotus (Barij or Kamal) in his right hand and all spiritual powers are in front of him, whereas the worldly powers sought by the folks are held in his left hand. In paying obeisance to the Gurus, peace of mind and spiritual satisfaction can be attained. No one can hope to win emancipation without the Guru’s blessing. The bard Mathura is convinced that whosoever meditates on Guru Arjun, would not be subject to transmigration. God himself has put the canopy of Grace over the head of Guru Arjun Dev.

    Historical References

    Apart from the praises of Guru Nanak and the four successor Gurus, Bhatt Bani contains a number of references to the life-history of the Gurus. Evidently, the Bhatt-poets came into close contact with the Gurus and grasped their geneology. Some of their utterances confirm what the historians and biographers in general have stated. Bhatt Nalh clearly mentions Goindval situated on the banks of river Beas, where the Bhatts met with Guru Arjun and experienced the bliss. Their verses repeatedly depict the sequence of Guru Nanak up to Guru Arjun, pinpointing the Spirit or the divine Jyoti passing on from the first Guru to the second and so on. Bhatt Salh pays tribute to Guru Amar Das ‘Son of Tej Bhan’ – And the bard Kalsahar utters the praises of Guru Ram Das ‘Son of Har Das’. He sings the glory of Guru Arjun who appeared in the ‘Home of Guru Ram Das’. Such references indicate Bhatts’ intimate knowledge of the Guru-household.

    Classical References

    The authors of Bhatt-Bani seem to be great admirers of Raja Janak whose reign of ‘Janak-Raj’ had no parallel. Kalsahar addressing Guru Ram Das says “Janak Raj becomes only to you.” Again, referring to Guru Arjun, he says Satyug-like reign of Janak Raj has now prevailed. Guru Nanak is believed to have personified in various forms during the Four Yugas, viz. Satyug, Treta, Duaparn and Kaliyug. He was ‘Ram’ and he was ‘Krishna’ of the Classical period. Bhatt Nalh seeks protection of Guru Ram Das, just as Draupadi’s honour was saved by providing endless robes to her. And Sudama of modest means was honoured by Krishna. The names of Harlot Ganika, Narad, Jasoda, Sanakas and several other angels and devils are mentioned in the verses. Even Nehaklank, Machh Kachh, Brahma, Vishnu, Indra and Shiva figure in the classical-mythological references in the Swayyas, which are composed to eulogize the Gurus.

    Significance of Bhatt-Bani

    Guru-Bani
    is the outpouring of divinely inspired spirits. Similarly Bhagat-Bani is an independent entity collected and selected by the Gurus and incorporated in the Holy Granth. But the Swayyas composed by the Bhatts are unique in the sense that they are testimony to the spiritual heights of Gurbani. The Bhatts did not belong to the family circle of the Gurus, nor were they associates of the Bhagats. They came to realize the Divine Essence present in the Gurus in person and in their sacred Word. Their recognition of the greatness of Gurus speaks eloquently in their verses and hymns.


    Bhatt-Bani has ideological affinity with Guru-Bani as well as Bhagat-Bani. All the three centre around the vision of Naam. The Bhatts share with Gurbani their faith in the efficacy of Sat-Santokh-Gyan as the vehicle of deliverance. They endorse the name ‘Waheguru’ for the godhead. Their firmly rooted faith in the immortal character of Amrit-Bani brings out their Sikh Spirit.




    The linking of Guru Nanak and other Gurus with Raja Janak, may be an off-shoot of the Bhatts’ way of looking at the historical-mythological tradition of India. They believe it was Nanak and none else who operated in the person of Ram and Krishna. This is their own unique way of expressing their sentiments. They adopted the poetic metre Swayya for paying tributes to the Gurus, even though they were quite familiar with the use of classical Raags in Gurbani. Whatever the methods and means they chose for their poetry, their dedication to the Gurus is evident and crystal clear.
     
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    #20 Sikh80, Oct 28, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 24, 2009

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