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Core Gurmat Philosophy & Self Made Scholars

Discussion in 'Hard Talk' started by dalbirk, Jun 11, 2008.

  1. dalbirk

    dalbirk
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    Dear Raj Khalsa Ji ,
    WJKK WJKF
    Very humbly not taking anysides , just as a ordinary layman , I request u to pose these questions to M/S Inder Singh Ghagga , Gurbaksh Singh Kala Afghana & all their GANG MEMBERS on SSI , Canada :
    1 . What is their stand on Sikh Ardas ?
    2. What is their stand on Sikh Rehat Maryada ?
    3. What is their stand on Amrit Maryada ie Khande Bate Di Pahul ?
    4. What is their stand on Nitnem Banis ?
    5 What is their stand on a Sikh required to get up at Ambrocial hours ? ie Amrit Vela
    6. What is their stand on Naam Simran & Daily requirement for a Sikh to recite Nitnem Banis ?
    7. What is their stand on FIVE KAKAARS ?
    8.What is their stand on Guru Granth Sahib Ji as the Eternal Guru of the Sikhs ?
    9. What is their stand on the translations of Guru Granth Sahib Ji by Prof Sahib Singh Ji , Bhai Vir Singh Ji ?
    10. What is their stand on the supremacy of Akal Takhat Sahib ?
    These SELF MADE SCHOLARS have struck at the very roots of Sikhism in guise of their ' TAT GURMAT PHILOSOPHY ' , hell bent on destroying the very little the Sikh Panth is already having & promote ATHEISM in name of TAT GURMAT. The so called Tat Gurmat SELF MADE SCHOLARS find that the easiest way to fame is to destroy somebody 's reputation & scandaleous disclosures & nothing themselves have to show by way of their own achievements . What achievement Mr Ghagga has to show as compared to Giani Sant Singh Maskeen Ji other than writing scandalous books & literature , that he has these guts to blemish the name of a Renowned Scholar who has prached Sikhism amongst a lot of Non - Sikhs ?
     
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  3. vijaydeep Singh

    vijaydeep Singh
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    Re: Gyani Sant Singh Ji Maskeen

    Gurfateh

    Das use to ahve request for them and was a rather follower of them Dear Bro dalbirk.

    But das saw a strange thing that they were the person who at one point of the time wanted that there voice should be heard.They wanted an antagonism to AKJ or DDT for what they call jingoism and non intellectualism.

    When Das and some other Sikhs pointed out thier weakness.They them selves showed jingoism and fundmentalism and what we call Bhandi Prachar in Pujabi.This proved that they are bankrupt intellectully.(Haqeem Tarsem Singh Ji,Surjit Singh Ji missioanry etc.)

    Then das went back to his memoray lane.It was duirng 1996-97.Last two years of Hindu life of Das.In First year of collage for graduation in Delhi University.Das has met Dr Raina and read Dr Jahur Siddioque.When das found fualt in them,they restored to abuses and jingoism instead of replying the sensible way.They were communists.


    Das was told by Medai head of RSS that while denouincing them,Leftist will try to take over the Sikh faith as they have done with Arya Samaj in south Haryana(swami agnivesh) and with Rama Krishna Mission(West Bengal).Das still did not agree and counter fired the RSS,s intention to install guru Granth Sahib Ji in Temples and BJP MP's organisnfg a Dance show in which dance was done based upon Gurbani(From Guru Granth Sahib Ji) and they told that Guru's were Krsihna worshipper(it was a Kathak like dance dedicated to Krishna).So das did not go by them.

    But after reading the book Sabh Dusht Jakh Mara by Kanwar Ajit Singh and article by Mr GS Lamba das started to work in that direction and found some truth.Das will make those things online soon.

    But not all missionaries are leftists or non belivers but as we say that sangat or company of these good guys slowly errodes the faith from them.Das any way feels pain when a Sikh slow is misguided to be a Asikh.

    As Chaupayee Sahib talks of saving Sikh and killing Asikh within ourself in prayer to destroyer attribute of Akal.We have to pray to Akal for them.Rest is will of Akal.We are outsefl fake/myth only Truth is Akal.
     
  4. dalbirk

    dalbirk
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    Re: Gyani Sant Singh Ji Maskeen

    Dear Veer Vijaydeep Singh Ji ,
    WJKK WJKF
    What I feel personally ( I may be wrong also ) that the ever increasing no of TAT GURMAT PRACHARKS ie ATHEISTS is giving rise to some other problems also . This is encouraging each & everybody to jump on to this bandwagon making it ultimately free for all , in case this side wins ( there is certainly possibility of this also now that they have collected under the banner of Spokesman News Paper ) the Sikh Ideology & Principles will be greatly compromised like they were done during the rein of Udasis & Mahants . As such the younger generation of Sikhs & Wannabe Sikhs will be following something else in the garb of Sikhism , which will be damaging to overall survival & prosperity of Sikhism . So along with RSS these SELF MADE SCHOLARS ( Atheists funded by Communists & Congress ) should also be kept at an arm's length by all Sikh Sangat . I personally am looking forward to ur revelations . By the way I'm a great fan of Sikh Missionary College , Ludhiana . I find them very strict on principles , knowledgable & clear in vision as reagrds Gurbani & its principles . What is ur opinion ?
     
  5. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    Re: Gyani Sant Singh Ji Maskeen

    dalbirk ji

    The clear way in which you express a very cohesive message is entirely admirable. But you leave me with some questions. These questions pertain to the issue of how "scholars" are deemed or recognized as "scholars" within Sikhism. Rather than lay out a tedious list of possible answers to my own questions -- too boring, I would rather ask you.

    How does someone attain the status of scholar in Sikhism? How does one judge the quality of scholarship of that person? When has someone crossed the line and becomes an atheist or communist disguised as a scholar? The last question I put forward, because scholars can from time to time advance some radical arguments and not be atheists or scholars, but rather independent thinkers.

    Thank you for sharing your views.
     
  6. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    WITHOUT THE CLEAR PARAMETRES..... one man's scholar may be another's AGYANI/moorakh/andha/unparrh etc.
    Some scholars are modern educated academicians with university degrees/phds/books - to the Derawadees these are all communists/atheists/blah blah
    to the followers of such scholars..people like sant so and so are unparrh/half baked/jingle bells singing saints and certainly not the "Brahmgyanis" their followers claim them to be..blah blah blah..
    So AAd Jio..the parametres etc have to be set out and your mail requires such to be clearcut...

    Gyani jarnail Singh
     
  7. pk70

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    Re: Gyani Sant Singh Ji Maskeen

    Raju1987 ji

    It is great pleasure to hear that Maskeen helped you to understand Gurbani or Sikhi. Your answer to MKM's question is lame. Late Maskeen ji was habitual of quoting Urdu poets, that didnt translate all his lectures into a language for those who couldn't understand otherwise. For example if I speak in English then quote Urdu poem, will those people understand me more who do not understand English? Answer is no.
    No Gurmat teacher should ever use Urdu/Hindi/punjabi etc poetry to convey Guru message, it is not needed. I heard about him but could not sit more than ten minutes to continue his long thread of words which were hardly related to Guru Vaak. Bhai Paminder Singh ji may explain more right way but who knows him because he doesn't use tactic as used by later.Tactics influence people than simple explanation. Have you heard about OSHO? A master of words, brilliant man who read and grasped and got imprinted in his memory. He would weave around words, quote from the world religions and philosophies but any one with clear mind would hardly sit and listen to his games of words. Sorry if others think otherwise and good luck
     
  8. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    My own take:
    1. Ardass is as presecribed in the SRM.
    2.I follow the SRM STRICTLY - incluidng the injunction on JHATKA/KUTHA Meat. AKJ/Taksalis/Nanaksari and other derawadees DONT FOLLOW the SRM and have their own Maryadas - thus they dont have any LOCUS STANDI to question others on SRM.
    3.Khandeh batte dee pahul as in SRM - 100% correct.
    4.Nitnem Banis - Follow what SRM says. and what the PANJ declared during the Pahul Ceremony and agreed to by the Abhilkahees (myself)
    5.Amrit Vela - Bhai Gurdass Ji has clarified it in his vaars. However we need not be too "fanatic" on this..any TIME we "meet" with our BELOVED is AMRITVELA..ad any time spent away from HIM is..KOORR VELA/VICHHORRA VELA and not amrit at all. Gurbani and GURMATT transcends all timeas and barriers... THUS "Amrtivela" may not be the SAME everywhere..neither may it be suitable same for all - people have to work 24 hour shifts/work in artic zone where 6 months is Day/Night etc etc. So far only ISLAMICs are fanatic about their namaaz times..cant shift even one second !!! Gurmatt is FLEXIBLE at all times.
    6. "Naam simran" is LIVING NAAM and not mere parrotting verbally. The NAAM simran MUST go along with WORKING HANDS !! Thus special sitting positions/darkened bedrooms/special bells/muisc etc etc are all karamkaand and not Gurmatt. Guur Nnak ji didnt state any such..HE FARMED/CUT GRASS/etc and worked hard in his fields....Naam simarn has to be 24/7 awake and asleep !!!
    7 Kakkars - I wear them at all times...as ordained by the Panj. However they are PRACTICAL and not Janeau like - mere symbols to me. Wearing them is a RESPONSIBILITY of a Good Khalsa...merely wearing them DOESNT MAKE a Khalsa...the KHALSA comes FIRST..kakars come LATER.
    8. SGGS is the ETERNAL GURU of Khalsa Panth. The ONE and ONLY GURU. Period. Its GURBANI has to be FOLLOWED...not paid "lip service"...empty bowing/matha teking/looking at its words as darshan etc.
    9. I read and use all translations..and have them all in my library...fareedkoti teeka. harbans singh teeks. sahib singh teeka. manmohan singh teeka, bhai veer singhs incomplete teeka, snat singh khalsa teeka, gurbachan singh tlaib teeka etc etc. Best so far is Sahib Singh teeka.
    10. AKAL TAKHAT is supreme. Its not a "building" and its not a PAID sewadaar/s sitting on it.
    Its aplace for teh Khalsa panth to sit/deliberate and pass GURMATTAS in line with the Gurbani of SGGS - the REAL TAKHAT OF AKAL today.

    Gyani jarnail Singh
     
  9. spnadmin

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    Gyani ji

    If I understand you correctly -- you are saying that

    I am asking for clear-cut paramaters:D

    And these parameters are non-existent:inca:

    :unsure:Warm regards!
     
  10. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    aad ji, yes.
    Gyani jarnail Singh
     
  11. dalbirk

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    Dear Bhai Jarnail Sintgh Ji,
    WJKK WJKF
    I personally met S. Inder Singh Ghagga at Lahore Book Shop , Ldh some four months back , I've read his books namely ' Sikhyan Da Sarvnash , Sada Bera Eon Garkia ' etc but one thing I have seen since I'm following Spokesman also simaltaneously that S. Ghagga , Kala Afghana , Ravinder Singh Pinjore , Hari Rattan Yukta , G. S. Lamba & host of their GANG MEMBERS . I find them too agressive , too FAME SEEKERS , attention cravers . Why in the world has Mr Ghagga to criticise Maskeen Ji . What Sikh Rehat Maryada principles Maskeen Ji has broken ? Quoting outside examples to make a point is indeed acceptable if it does not compromise with the Maryada & Principles , ideology . I saw an article in Spokesman some months ago that Sikh Ardass needs to be changed since it starts with ' Bhagauti ' ; ' Jaap Sahib & Sawaiyas ' Banis should be excluded from Nitnem beacuse these Banis r from Dasham Granth & hence not acceptable ; Amrit Maryada was not held in 1699 but 1698 ; Nitnem Banis were not recited at the time of Adminstration of Amrit by Guru Gobind Singh Ji ; Nitnem Path is Brahminism ( Brahmanvad ) & should be scrapped ; Bowing before Guru Granth Sahib Ji is Brahminism ( Brahmanvad ) since none of the other BOOKS of the other religions of the world r treated in this way & such Brahmin ritual as bowing before Guru Granth Sahib Ji has been influenced by Brahminism ; Akal Takhat sahib is not respectable since it is RULED by PRIESTS ( Pujaris / Jathedars ) directly controlled by Badal & no Sikh should respond to any call or edict of the Akal Takhat ; S. Joginder Singh Spokesman has started his own series of Gurbani Viakhya in his newspaper in which he has particularly made it a point to criticize PROF SAHIB SINGH JI ONLY in almost every alternate issue . My view is that associating with these guys , one is bound to get affected & ultimately some good guy will also end up contributing something which will damage the few remaining institutions & agreed philosophies , ideologies of the Panth & setting up wrong precedents for the future . I may be wrong also , my apologies for any misquote I may have made .
     
  12. vijaydeep Singh

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    Gurfateh
    what does das understands from what is given in Spokemans.

    Will be givne below but a few things first

    Genberaly the missioanry guys want to change the Maryada saying that as deradar do not follow it so we should forsake it.It is quite strange,as if we say that x is jumpimg into the ditch so should we jump.

    If Sants tell not to eat meat then our Maryada of not eating Halal is fulfilled but when Ghugga Sahih or Say one time teacher of das says that eating Halal is OK and First Master ate it at Mecca,then it is bringing a jolt to Maryada.

    If some one tells us to read 7 banis a day,5 banis of Rahit is included so we are walking an extra mile and Maryada is followed.But spkieman guys tell us to read only three for the whole day.2 less.

    So there das gives there prferances.
    1 . What is their stand on Sikh Ardas ?

    As Niranakaris and Bhasauriyas wanted.Ardas should not have Var Shri Bhagwati Ji Ki.(as for them Tenth Master wrote no bani(Same as Sant Nirankaris).They want to replace Nanak nam Chardi Kala also and some verse from Bhatt Bani they want to add at first.

    2. What is their stand on Sikh Rehat Maryada ?

    Should be changed as per Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji's interpetaion.tommorow it is possible that they may oppose keeping hairs as Brahmnical as Guru Granth Sahib Ji tells us to stay away from rituals.

    Better about keeping or not keeping hairs needs to asked by our collegue member Bhai Plamba.Verse is there Bhaven Rakho Kes...(in Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji)
    3. What is their stand on Amrit Maryada ie Khande Bate Di Pahul ?

    Das intereacted with Mr Kohli at Gurmat collage(in Mata Sundari complex).He asked das that was all the work of earier 9 Gurus was useless?Das told something about fundation and walls.He said he did not want any examples.Das anyway told him that his plea was same when das had an altercation with an office bearer of RSS over theier calling Banda Singh Bahadur as Beer Banda Bairagi.He did not reply.

    They have objection to calling it Amrit and reading 3 Banis from Tenth Master.Seeing into bowl is also not liked by them by 5 Beloved once.
    4. What is their stand on Nitnem Banis ?

    Three only
    Japuji Sahib
    anand Sahib
    Kirtan Sohila
    5 What is their stand on a Sikh required to get up at Ambrocial hours ? ie Amrit Vela

    Not for early morning

    6. What is their stand on Naam Simran & Daily requirement for a Sikh to recite Nitnem Banis ?

    Whole Guru Granth Sahib Ji are name and should be read.(das wants to ask about the words represnting male or female organs,seman,oval eggs etc. coming in Guru Granth Sahib,das knows that name r Akal in them,but will they agree?)
    7. What is their stand on FIVE KAKAARS ?

    So far OK to have but Kala Afghan did talk about Gyan Kharag ie sword of intellect.
    8.What is their stand on Guru Granth Sahib Ji as the Eternal Guru of the Sikhs ?

    Hari Rattan Yukta wrote that we shoudl not bow to them but Darabar Singh wrote that Guru did not give throne to Guru Granth Sahib Ji but Guru Panth while leaving for Sachkhand.While Gyani Surjeet Singh Ji say Guru Granth Sahib Ji above the Five Beloved.
    9. What is their stand on the translations of Guru Granth Sahib Ji by Prof Sahib Singh Ji , Bhai Vir Singh Ji ?

    Inder Singh Ji Ghugga has made a new interpetations about Garud Chade Gobind Aila..

    They are open for news and more pro matterial listic interpetaion which they term as scentific logic.
    Sitaram Yechuri a prominent leader of communists in India also wants same for Hindu texts.They have tried same for Holy Kuran.
    10. What is their stand on the supremacy of Akal Takhat Sahib ?

    There has been no Jathedar so far.till they have thier own Pujari/mukh Sevadar,they will be challeningn it,once they over take Akal Takhat Sahib,they will hystrically start to crush anyone who oppose Akal Takhat Sahib.So for Akal Takhat Sahib and SGPC,it is oppertunistic based upon who controls them.If own people ,then yes an authority else no.
     
  13. pk70

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    Dalbirk ji Vijaydeep ji and all others ,
    In Sikhi, to be wise in every act is advised, taking that as base to question, Joginder Singh Spokesman, Ghaga and others took advantages of Sikh Sangat who didn't know them well in the beginning. Any one visiting Spokesman guy used to get special treatment if he/she committed to their plan to raise money, may got be fooled. These guys are not Sikhs, they are all after money,they are agents of those who have political reasons to divide Sikhs. I call them new faces of Communists minded opportunists.( If you are a communist, go and do search on Marxism why Sikhism is your topic, there are many like this, like Pr Pritam Singh etc) Many of the questions they put on the table were not answered intellectual way, so they got some sympathy temporarily. None of their claim is beyond answerable. Our Sikh leaders are more into power and money than keeping integrity of Sikhism intact and these guys got the chance. spokesman is well known as CONGRESS backed paper.I am not guessing, I heard it all from those who once worked for this guy. We lack a true Sikh leader, otherwise these guys are going to defile Sikhism bit by bit.
     
  14. hercules_1909

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    Re: Gyani Sant Singh Ji Maskeen

    WJKK, WJKF!

    The write up by Inder S. Gagga Ji is baseless. Maskeen Ji never advocated Hinduism. He said in his lectures that the RAM quoted in SGGS means the one who dwells in everything (Rameyaa Hoya), not shri ram chander. He also advocated Sikhs towards Jap and amrit sanchaar. Still i dont know on what basis is. is this claim abt Hinduism. The fact is we cannot understand the SGGS without learning abt Hindu Scriptures, brajbhasha, sanskrit and persian. Gyani ji was also against sanyaas and supported grihastha life(is this anti gurmat or hiduism?). He also asked his listeners to get up early in the morning and dedicate life to Waheguruji by Jap of "Waheguru".

    Gyani Ji in his lectures never claimed that he is a sant or enlightened. The claim that he used brahmanic fables in his teachings, similar fables are mentioned in the SGGS. The writer seems to be truely anti hindu and this beleif is anti gurmat. Guru Sahibaan always respected all religions, despite all attrocities on Sikhs in those days by people of other religions.

    The fact that people took a lot of money for katha and kirtan was highlighted by him and it made him very feel sorry too. But i feel that if he has done so then he shld be judged in God's court, we shld simply ignore any such criticism.

    The fact abt Khajuraho temples is that all sexuality is physical and on the outer side. Hence they are called temples. they teach us to go away from kaam. If people only see the outer idols and get diverted, who is to be blamed?

    I cant comment abt the Dasam Granth Sahib Ji.

    I dont feel that we should get into dividing religions. The best fact highlighted from his lectures is that there is no difference in any religion. All religions lead to Waheguruji and are equal(is this anti gurmat?).

    The article should definitely be ignored or taken of.
     
  15. vijaydeep Singh

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    Gurfateh

    Well das is observing the simmering anger in Panth in general towards Missioanries.Hight time they come out of thier own cocoon and false propganda of thier so called ie Akhaoti victory over people they think are opposed to them.They are on the ways of Nirankaris.

    There has been various attempts by sikh missioanry Collage in past to get themsevle rid of comrades infiltrating them. Das finds that after intial success there is a setback at present.

    so thier existance is in doldrums.In Delhi das has thier numbers in finger tips and flaoting population with them also das knows.Nar Chahat Kachh aur Hai Aure Ki Aure Bhayee.

    Das yesterday gave Dr Anokh Singh Ji about 23 page leeter Anti to whole content of Shri Dasham Granth Sahib by S.Dalbeer Singh to Akal Takhat and told that das got it in may june but due to busy with other preaching realted activity could not answer the false propganda in it.

    Dr. Told das that this is work of the leftist comrade.They do not do any thing and prevent others from doing good job by making useless comments and theories.He gave the Examples of singur(MCC) and nuclear deal(CPM) in India.Had das wanted das would have replied them there and then but das did not have time due being busy with other preaching and bread earning acts.so das is getting them scanned and when ever das gets the time time das will answer that.

    We have flood of books repeating same wrong interpetations and for each book if we write another book and waste our time,it is not good for Panthic interests as we are off the work of preaching and then revert back to reform fundamentalists principles which OK.Sometime weak control makes people take undue liberty.Das anyway wish well to all.


    Akal bless them also and make them have faith in Akal.
     

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