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Controversy Surrounding Prof Darshan Singh Ji

Discussion in 'Hard Talk' started by Admin Singh, Nov 14, 2009.

  1. Admin Singh

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    THE FACTS

    Professor Darshan Singh, a former Jathedar of The Akal Takht, has for several decades dazzled Sikhs around the world with his inspiring kirtan and erudite discourses on gurbani.

    He has also been quite courageous, forthright and outspoken about the anti-Sikh and anti-Sikhi goings-on in India and Punjab since 1984.

    Through the last two decades, his integrity has been attacked by a handful over and over again. Through time, the allegations have been found to be wild and baseless.

    The most recent one is over his views on the Dasam Granth. He is now being accused of making derogatory remarks about Guru Gobind Singh!
     
    QUESTIONS TO PONDER -


    To those who have known him these past few decades through his kirtan and discourse, do you think it is reasonable to believe, or at all feasible, that Prof. Darshan Singh would make derogatory remarks about Guru Gobind Singh or say anything which could in anyway be designed to be hurtful to his memory?


    - Why has he been the focal point of repeated and relentless attacks?

    - Even if we disagree with his views on any subject, is it right for any of us to attack him personally and accuse him of being an "enemy of Sikhi"?


    - How should the community deal with such allegations against its highly respected Elders?



    http://www.sikhchic.com
     
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  3. ranghi29

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    Re: Prof Darshan Singh Ji Ragi

    Prof. Darshan Singh was myfavorite ragi...until i heard his views on Dasam Granth.. He believes that Dasam patshia's Bachitar Nattak and many of other banis of dasam guru are not written by Guru Ji himself... He is really good ragi but i don't think he's bigger Gyani than Sant Jarnail Singh Khalsa Bhindranwale.. Sant Muskeen Singh.. Sant Baba Ishar Singh ji.. Bhai Balbir Singh.. Sant Baba Thakur Singh ji ... And Biggest gyani of them all BRHAM GYANI BABA DEEP SINGH JI... who all have not only read Dasam Granth but also studied it word by word.. all know the meaning of every word... Sant Jarnail SIngh ji khalsa aloso said that if you don't believe in Dasam Granth bani and its you are nothing but a "NASTAK" ATHEIST... in my eyes he is nothing but an athiest..
     
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  4. Admin Singh

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    Re: Prof Darshan Singh Ji Ragi

    Elsewhere on Internet, there are some interesting debates going on this topic...

    Conversation about this article on sikhchic.com

    1: Sanmeet Kaur (Brampton, Ontario, Canada), November 11, 2009, 11:39 AM.

    A Sikh is answerable to his Guru. However, most of us who are quick to malign don't actually know what is it exactly we are protesting against. Prof. Sahib is a public figure and does not shy away from controversy to make his point. We must admit we still have a lot to gain and learn from him. And that is the point of Sikhi - to learn. Even if one disagrees with his opinion or the manner in which he makes it, to accuse any Sikh of being an enemy of Sikhi is shameful and indecent in itself. Clearly, those who do so do not see the Guru Granth Sahib as their 'partakh' Guru. The Roundtable forum seems to me an ideal way to find out how the lay Sikh, one without any political agenda, feels about this.

    2: Bicky Singh (Ontario, Canada), November 11, 2009, 12:29 PM.

    I have actually seen Prof. Darshan Singh at a Gurdwara recently where he did discuss the validity of the Dasam Granth. The example that he provided seemed to support his contention that historically, there has been an injection of extraneous materials into the Dasam Granth, some of which is totally inconsistent with Sikhi. I have seen the latest extract from a video which is being used to criticize him, and from the expression on Prof. Darshan Singh's face, and what he is saying, it appears that all he is doing is giving another example of the wrong type of material that has found its way into the Dasam Granth, and not presenting it as someting he agrees with! If his giving such an example of an offensive text is to be taken as hurtful in itself, or an insult to the memory of the Guru, why didn't anyone in the sangat step up and confront him at that time? No one did, because they had heard his entire discourse and knew what he was saying! We need to see the context in which anythig is being presented. I don't think that Prof. Darshan Singh made any derogatory remarks against any of our Gurus in either of the examples that are being bandied about. I think we need to have some open discussion and open minds to see what angle the presenter is coming from. There does seem to be a lack of understanding within the community to see things from another's viewpoint.

    3: Chintan Singh (San Jose, California, U.S.A.), November 11, 2009, 1:23 PM.

    I have only heard Prof. Darshan Singh's excellent kirtan and gurbani discourses, and do not know of his feelings on 1984, etc. I believe anyone who makes a point and has strong opinions about a subject matter in our community is repeatedly and relentlessly attacked whether it is Hew McLeod, Dr. I.J. Singh, etc. I believe we as a community lack the maturity to accept people's points as their own views on the subject and respectfully agree to disagree with their views. I cannot imagine Prof. Darshan Singh making any wrong remarks about Guru Gobind Singh or being an enemy of Sihi. If anyone was to listen to his CD, "Sikhi de Pehchan", one would know how passionate he is about Sikhi, even if one were to disagree with any of the thoughts presented in that CD. Again, we as a community have a tendency to jump to conclusions without fully analyzing and understanding the individuals comments. It's the same situation about the matter of Chairs in Sikh Studies. Simply, because some don't agree with some of the things Hew McLeod wrote about Sikhism, they have decided to oppose the very idea of having Sikh Studies offered in universities. In my opinion, the community (perhaps the Akal Takht or a regional body that can adequately represent the diaspora community) needs to create a forum where such matters can be heard, analyzed and discussed without allegations and personal attacks. This Round Table can serve as that forum. It would be informative to hi critics to first know what Prof. Darshan Singh has in fact said about the Dasam Granth, for example, before condemnng him.

    4: Ashveer Pal Singh (Berkeley, California, U.S.A.), November 11, 2009, 5:13 PM.

    Since I do not know much about Prof. Darshan Singh, I would like to address the third question. Certain groups accord certain individuals great titles: 'Bhai', 'Sant', 'Baba', 'Gurmukh', etc. As if these categories are somehow objective, when in fact often these individuals do not necessarily meet any specific criteria of spiritual achievement, but rather fit a certain set of ideals that are already promoted by a group/jatha/community. What this inevitably leads to are false claims of 'real' or 'pure' Sikh knowledge that further fractures the community, on personal frolics based on caste, class and level of understanding, rather than actual scriptural/theological grounds.

    5: Raj (Canada), November 11, 2009, 5:33 PM.

    Give me a break. I can't imagine Professor Sahib making such remarks about Guru Sahib. He has dedicated his life to spreading the word of the Gurus. I'm just going to give you an example here. In 1984, after the attack on The Darbar Sahib, most of th Sikh leadership went into hiding, including the Badals. Prof. Darshan Singh was not afraid of speaking openly against Indira and his psychophant, Zail Singh. In his kirtan at Bangla Sahib, while singing the shabad "Jabe ban agyo tabe ros jagyo", he referred to Zail Singh as "Indira da chamcha" and Indira as "Zalim". This is when every Hindu organization was singing praises of Indira. I have a recording of that discourse. This man has a lots of guts and is not afraid to openly challenge any misconceptions. The question of the Dasam Granth is long overdue and has been pushed under the rug by the S.G.P.C. for too long. When was the last time the S.G.P.C. or the Akalis addressed anything to its concluson? Anyway, there has never been any attempt to bring in theologians, linguists, historians or any other experts from different position to go over this issue. An ordinary person may be well intentioned, but lacks the scruitiny of a scholar. This issue is for scholars, not babas or local, self-proclaimed gyanis, for that matter. There's enough material in the Dasam Granth that begs closer scrutiny. If it doesn't align with gurbani and the lives and teachings of the Gurus, then someone has to explain it's merit to the ordinary folks and why it shouldn't be filed away as merely being of historical curiousity and no more.

    6: Gurjender Singh (Maryland, U.S.A.), November 11, 2009, 7:25 PM.

    I like the style of Prof. Darshan Singh's kirtan, as he gives all the examples from Guru Granth, including when he refers to the 1984 attack and massacres. Because of his wisdom and spirtuality, he was appointed to be Jathedar of the Akal Takht. He refused to bow down to the S.G.P.C., and he quit the post when it became impossible for him to function independently. He is one of a very few gyanis who know Guru Granth by heart. We should respect his knowledge and teachings instead of criticizing him. I have listened to his kirtan from Takht Sri Hazur Sahib Sahib on the 400th anniversary of the investiture of Guru Granth. He clearly mentioned that Guru Gobind Singh gave the gur-gaddi to only Guru Granth, and not to any other granth, including the Dasam Granth. One cannot equate the Dasam Granth with the Guru Granth Sahib. But we should also respect the Dasam Granth. This is our bad luck that the Sikh leadership does not recognize the real value of a person like Prof. Darshan Singh. I think the time has come for the community to ensure a full recording of all his dscourses on DVD to be used for TV broadcast or home viewing and take advantage of his extensive knowledge and wisdom.

    7: Gopal Singh (Sweden), November 12, 2009, 4:55 AM.

    Here are some more facts that need to be considered: 1) Prof. Darshan Singh had been doing kirtan from the same compositions which he is now criticising. 2) He is hobnobbing with those groups who publicly deplore even the Jaap Sahib. 3) He now takes every opportunity to discuss Dasam Granth in the sangat and rake up unnecessary controversy. And controversy beckons controversy. 4) He publically congratulated the Gurdwara of Finland which changed the first pauree of the Ardaas. So the question to be asked is why would he now criticise the banees for which he once had high respect? All the examples of his contribution in the pre- and post- 1984 eras is connected to his kirtan based on the compositions from the Dasam Bani. So the question which should also be asked is this: Should people's beliefs in gurbani be connected with other mortals' assumptions? When he believed in the Dasam Bani, his supporters believed in it too. Now when he criticises it, the sangat listens to him.

    8: Mehtab Kaur (New Delhi, India), November 12, 2009, 9:27 AM.

    The allegations listed by S. Gopal Singh are excellent examples of how half-truths and innuendo are used by those who go after the likes of Prof. Darshan Singh. Let me address each of them, using the same number scheme he uses: 1) Prof. Sahib often does kirtan from the verses in the Dasam Granth ... but from the passages that are clearly ascribed by scholars to Guru Gobind Singh, and those that are consistent with Sikhi. His criticism is not directed against all of the contents of the Dasam Granth, only to the passages that have been interjected by outside and vested interests. And the thrust of his objection is for the Dasam Granth being given any status of a Guru or scripture. 2) Hobnobbing with groups? By writing for or speaking to those who disagree with you - like the readers of sikhchic.com - are you hobnobbing with us? Does that taint you or your judgement? 'Hobnobbing' is a loaded term which by itself means nothing except mischief on the part of the one pointing the finger. 3) He has of course taken upon himself to - because no one else dares to take on the ignorant and the mischief-makers - tackle headlong those who even suggest that Dasam Granth is to be treated like scripture. He merely wants to clarify the fact that Dasam Granth IS NOT GURBANI in the sense the Guru Granth is! It is in the best interest of the community that Prof. Sahib continue this mission until the matter is laid to rest. But I'm baffled by your suggestion that he does not have the right to speak his mind ... merely because you disagree with him. THAT is the crux of the problem! 4) So, he publicly congratulated the Finland Gurdwara? He doesn't have the right to? Surely, you too have the right to publically criticize the same Gurdwara and Prof. Darshan Singh as well. As long as you stay within the norms of proper behaviour - that is the Sikh thing to do! Finally, all I have to say is: it's not what one person thinks or says, or how much others disagree with him; it is how we express ourselves within the boundaries of civilized - call it 'Sikh", if you will - behaviour!

    9: Gurinder Singh (Stockton, California, U.S.A.), November 12, 2009, 10:18 AM.

    Prof. Darshan Singh ji has been singing Dasam Granth Bani all his life. Suddenly, it appears, he has become critical of some of the passages. Why?

    10: Gopal Singh (Sweden), November 12, 2009, 11:20 AM.

    I have recordings of Prof. Darshan Singh doing kirtan from Krishnavtar, Ramavtar, even Charitropakhyan and Chandi Charittar - all passages from the Dasam Granth. And now he criticizes these verses. Also, giving a lecture in a function organized by those who openly reject the Jaap Sahib and endorsing their views is, in my view, 'hobnobbing'. Similarly, a Gurdwara that has changed the Ardas is, in my view, anti-Panthic.

    11: Mehtab Kaur (New Delhi, India), November 12, 2009, 1:58 PM.

    In answer to the posts of S. Gurinder Singh and S. Gopal Singh: I believe Prof. Darshan Singh ji jumped into the fray when, post-1984, some mischievous elements - egged on by Hindu fundamentalists and other vested interests - began raising controversies within the Sikh community. One of these new issues was the bizarre suggestion that the Dasam Granth should be equated with the Guru Granth Sahib, and in some cases, some people even insisted on having prakash of it beside the Guru Granth Sahib as Guru. It is this silliness that got Prof. Sahib to raise his voice against the mischief and clear the air. He is not against the Dasam Granth per se: all he is saying is that it is not gurbani, certainly it is not scripture, and portions of it are apocryphal. Leading Sikh scholars agree with him. His critics are not scholars - just busy-bodies who have taken it upon themselves to become loud-mouths, without any claim to spiritual wisdom or knowledge. [For me, the issue is easier to resolve when I see the towering spiritual figure of Prof. Darshan Singh on one side, and a handful of rude, unmannered voices going berserk over an issue which not the most important one facing our community today!] Please, please don't jump into the dialogue or make up your minds without sifting through the obfuscations and looking at the real goings-on. Most of the critics are misled by the misinformation being thus circulated. But the energy, the passion, in tearing down this extraordinary man seems to be coming from a handful of people who have no real interest in the status of the Guru Granth, but to keep the community off balance by entagling it in peripheral issues. One way of keeping such people in check is by taking such issues calmly - high emotions don't get anybody anywhere. And Sikhi is not, and never is, threatened. It's those who don't rely on gurbani and get sucked into "chaturta" that unwittingly become pawns of the mischief-makers, and give them traction. Let's all beware ...

    12: Tejwant Singh (Nevada, U.S.A.), November 12, 2009, 1:58 PM.

    A Sikh's duty is to learn, to unlearn and to relearn, and Prof. Sahib, who resigned as the Jathedar of Akal Takht (most of the others have been sacked) because of Sikhi principles is not ashamed of letting the Khalsa Panth know that he is a true Sikh by doing just that. He also showed everyone that he does not shy away from changing his mind when gurmat wisdom demands it. Sikhi has a universal message and our visionary Gurus knew how to share that with all humanity. All other religions stopped in time except Sikhi because they are based on subjective truths whereas Sikhi is based on the objective Reality. The first pauri of japji shows us that. Our visionary Gurus did not want our thought processes to stop in the past but to evolve with the evolution of humanity. This is more the reason in my opinion for them not to add prose passages to this beautiful visionary poetry - the road map of humanity - which they could have easily done in The Guru Granth. Gurbani is like a prism. Each one of us sees it from our own angle and the more we delve into gurbani, with time, the better we are exposed to different angles of the same prism which make our understanding of the same shabad deeper and wider through contemplation and perseverance. This is the reason that our understanding of gurbani will grow with our own evolution. The only stamp it has on it is the stamp of TIMELESSNESS. So, the other side of the coin would be: BRAVO! to Prof. Darshan Singh ji who we all know spoke against the attack on Harmandar Sahib and also about the holocaust that took place in 1984 more than anyone else did. He held Kirtan Darbars during that time explaining gurbani in the same context. Once he came to realize with his own spiritual evolution about the passages in the Dasam Granth that are mistakenly attributed by many to our Dasam Pita, he put his reputation on line and spoke out about it, knowing quite well that attacks from all sides would be hurled at him ... which are still going on ceaselessly. Many who have not even read the Dasam Granth are ready to stone Prof. Sahib merely because they see others are doing it. It is the sheep following the sheep. Shall we call these people Sikhs or ignorant ones who are not willing to learn on their own but put their trust on some second/ third/ fourth hand information? So, I admire people like Prof. Sahib who we all know from his life did nothing but serve the Panth and is fearless in sharing his learning and insight. Isn't this the reason that we Sikhs serve the NIRBHAU, NIRVAIR Ik OanKaar?

    13: Natalee Singh (Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada), November 12, 2009, 3:17 PM.

    Without being familiar with Prof. Darshan Singh's work, my only comment would be: what part of "Guru maanyo Granth" is it that people don't understand? Didn't Guru Gobind Singh leave a clear and unequivocal edict that the Guru Granth Sahib was the one and only true Guru after his departure from this world ... bravo to anyone who furthers this message!

    14: Gurmeet Kaur (Atlanta, Georgia, U.S.A.), November 12, 2009, 5:01 PM.

    There are three reasons why Prof. Darshan Singh has been subject to repeated and relentless attacks. 1) He is the most popular Sikh parcharak alive today. It is not easy to be famous and influential. Fame invites jealousy, rivalry and spite, no matter how noble one's own intentions are. Ironically, as much as the Guru asks us to rid our ego, it appears that some of us nurse large doses of it. 2) He has most boldly challenged the authenticity of "Dasam Granth" as consisting solely of Guru Gobind Singh's compositions. In view of some attempts to declare it scripture, I am glad someone in his position had the knowledge and courage to do challenge them. It makes me really nervous when I hear the news of installations of the Dasam Granth at par with the Guru Granth Sahib at some gurdwaras, including a few in the west. Despite the many controversies that have suddenly appeared in the Panth in recent years, at least we all agreed on "One and only One Guru" - Guru Granth. It completely blows my mind when I hear that the only glue that binds the Panth together is under attack by this act of bestowing the same status to the Dasam Granth, and the majority of the nation is sitting quietly like dumb sheep. 3) We have not learnt how to disagree, and yet be civil to each other. What has been done to Gurbaksh Singh Kala Afghana? Protests, insults, threats, ex-communication, boycotts - the poor old man has been confined to his little apartment by people who still need to learn how to behave like true Sikhs. All for putting forward his views based on years and years of research? I am quoting Dr.I.J. Singh here when he says "We as a community have to learn to disagree without being disagreeable". I would say, ignore the allegations! Use your own heads. If Prof. Darshan Singh inspires you to be a good Sikh, learn from him, show him your support so others too can be inspired by him. Eventually, there is a need to focus on issues, not personalities. Prof. Darshan Singh will one day pass on, like each one of those who are attacking him. Energy should be spent on the issue of the Dasam Granth so it does not split the panth right down the middle. Because that is exactly what our detractors want us to do!

    15: R. Singh (Surrey, British Columbia, Canada), November 12, 2009, 6:16 PM.

    There are 10 articles about the Dasam Granth on SikhSpectrum.com Quarterly, January 2009 issue - Symposium on the Authorship of the Dasam Granth.

    16: Himmat Singh (Melbourne, Australia), November 12, 2009, 6:24 PM.

    Here lies the problem: if you review the conversation above, not one of the opponents of Prof. Darshan Singh's position talk about why the Dasam Granth should be given an elevated status, or argue the authenticity of the questionable passages, etc., etc. All they cite is personal invective against Prof. Sahib - "He used to sing the verses, now why does he oppose them?" "Why does he approve of such-and-such people?" "Why does he hobnob with so-and-so?" etc., etc. The problem is obvious - the issue is not the Dasam Granth. It is some personal stuff against Prof. Sahib. I suspect his detractors have brought (or been sent) baggage from the petty politicians in India. And the community is forced to live through these shenanigans, while the goofy village-style politics rages in some people's minds. I just don't understand why these fellows come to the West?

    17: Baljit Kaur (San Diego, California, U.S.A.), November 12, 2009, 6:36 PM.

    Everytime I hear, or speak to, someone who has a bone to pick with Prof. Darshan Singh, all I see is arrogance ... and an absence of logic. Sadly, there have been no exceptions. It is as if they think the Gurus had asked them specifically to nurture "mat neevin, man uccha"! If they'd only try the virtue of silence for a bit ... and listen to some of Prof. Darshan Singh's discourses, they might learn something ... and spare us their convolutions. Lord, bless them, please!

    18: Irvinder Singh Babra (Brantford, Ontario, Canada), November 12, 2009, 10:18 PM.

    If we can bring Prof. Darshan Singh down, a widely respected Elder, then which one of our heroes is free from such attacks. He has spent all his life in the service of Sikhi, and now we condemn him for his authority, his simplicity and his spirituality. Our holy Guru Granth Sahib has 1430 sacred pages, and I am pretty sure that there are not even 1430 Sikhs who understand it the way he does. If the controversy on the Dasam Granth is raging, then it's not the making of Professor Sahib. Sikhs worldwide must stop the assembly or binding of Dasam Granth and Guru Granth Sahib into one holy book. It's sacrilege of the highest order. Guru Gobind Singh had never allowed that in 1699 at Anandpur Sahib. On the other hand, it's astonishing to know why such a renowned and learned Raagi is now branded as one of the most controversial and disgraced Sikhs today? I have read very heinous remarks against him, and it's very painful to see Sikhi at such a juncture today. Is it the fault of Prof. Darshan Singh or have we all had contributed one or the way in our ignorant consciousness. I don't know and would love to be enlightened on it. Remember, the Sikhs remain one of the most generous, kind and foremost people within humanity today. Just stop condemning each other and start celebrating Sikhi now.

    19: Ravinder Singh Taneja (Westerville, Ohio, U.S.A.), November 13, 2009, 8:54 AM.

    Thanks to sikhchic.com for launching this Roundtable. From the response so far, one can be quite sure that this will be a popular forum. That Prof. Darshan Singh evokes strong reactions is pretty obvious. Gurmeet Kaur and Tejwant Singh (above) make some very valid observations: we need to stick to the issues and resist the impulse to attack individuals, to learn to disagree without being disagreeable. Actually, a good discussion always opens up new avenues, new possibilities and new insights. It offers growth - but only if we can see beyond the fog of our personal biases.

    20: Gurjender Singh (Maryland, U.S.A.), November 13, 2009, 11:17 AM.

    After reading all the comments by various Sikhs about Prof. Darshan Singh ji, I would like to say a few further words. I believe that after the compilation of Guru Granth, some Sikhs requested Guru ji for an explanation in great detail. Then Guru ji said that if He provided a word-for-word explanation, then Sikhs would not discuss the Gurbani and without discussion they would not understand. Therefore, please start with respect for others who do this. If Sikhs start following even some of teachings in Guru Granth Sahib, we would not be in this situation that we are currently in. Think honestly, there are very few raagis can do kirtan with proper and enlightened discourse accompanying it. Please respect others. I remember very well Gyani Sant Singh ji Maskin, another great scholar, who was given the Panth Ratan Award after his death. He should have been honoured while he was alive! Now, all the TV channels are suddenly busy broadcasting his lectures. When are we going to give Prof. Darshan Singh the honour due to him, instead of ...?

    21: I.J. Singh (New York, U.S.A.), November 13, 2009, 5:35 PM.

    I have followed some of the criticism of Prof. Darshan Singh. Many say: "He was the Jathedar of the Akaal Takht and has been a public presence doing katha/kirtan for umpteen years. Why is it that he never criticized the "Dasam Granth" then. Why now? There must be some ulterior motive or at least some great profit to be made." I wonder about that kind of reasoning. I look at myself - a man who hardly ever read or thought about a single line of gurbani for half his life, but now I do with great delight and some insight. If I were to follow the reasoning of the critics then I must remain true to my ignorance all my life and would have no right to learn, change and evolve. The important thing is not that he didn't comment before but now that he does, how do we analyze his reasoning and process. We, too, must show some room to grow - for him and for us both. Either he makes sense or he does not. That is important, not what he said or did not say 20 years ago. In my view he makes immense sense - and I am no acolyte.

    22: Gurdeep Singh (Sacramento, California, U.S.A.), November 13, 2009, 7:56 PM.

    Professor Darshan Singh ji has said something about the Dasam Granth which doesn't even exist within its pages. That should be the focus of discussion.
     
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  5. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    Re: Prof Darshan Singh Ji Ragi

    No. 9 and No. 22.
    No 9 is just asking why a person CANNOT CHANGE !! and forgets that a SIKH is ALWAYS CHANGING. GURMATT requires us to Learn...UN-LEARN..and RE-LEARN...
    What we DIDNT KNOW YESTERDAY......doesnt mean that when we LEARN something new TODAY..we MUST keep our head buried in the sand and keep on doing what we knew yesterday..and NOT use the newly learnt KNOWLEDGE.
    New "knowledge" keeps coming on Daily...and even Academicians, scientists..etc keep on chnaging their theories..practises. Does anyone still Believe that the EARTH is FLAT ? That the SUN Circles the Earth...???..BUT at one time everyone beleived THAT..but not NOW...
    THIS is WHY all those so called arguments that DROP NAMES..names like sirdar Kapoor Singh..Jarnail singh bhinderawallah..thakur singh etc etc...and say they all said THIS..so Ragi Drashan is WRONG...the problem is those persons are DEAD..and cannot change..while a LIVING PERSON Can change anytime...and this is exactly what Darshan Singh ji has DONE..and I applaud his COURAGE to do THAT...so he is actually a TRUE KHALSA.
    No. 22 doesnt know anything. The Anoop kaur episode is right there inisde the bachittar Natak granth...and its exactly what Darshan Singh says about it...
     
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  6. Astroboy

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  7. spnadmin

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    I have been following it. In fact, I have been making pdf copies of all the debate pages because they are excellent examples of how easy it is to spread mis-truths and half-truths via the Internet.

    Global Sikh News btw is a branch of panthic.org -- and the council of European Sikhs that is mentioned in several articles is nothing more than a group of representatives mainly from UK gurdwaras with a particular orientation, not even a balanced representation of gurdwaras in UK, and a smattering from other countries mainly Germany. So we have exaggeration there.

    Exaggeration mostly. :eek:
     
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  8. ssira

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    Dasam Granth Sahib is not new to the present day sangat. It's been here since long time from the elders and prime example Bh mani singh ji. If any change is required or something is not right it, It should come from a Brahm Giani not a teacher or preacher like Prof: Darshan Singh. If he proves that he will not cry if he is put on hot plate or cut buy a saw, I will take his words otherwise he should just do his kirtal from Sri Guru Granth Sahib as well as from Sri Dasam Granth Sahib. If he doesn’t agree with Sri Dasam Granth Sahib he should keep on doing kirtan just from Sri Guru Granth Sahib.Regarding Sri Dasam Granth Sahib, keep his mouth shut and don't heart the Sangat who totally believe in Sri Dasam Granth Sahib.
     
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  9. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    Who is the Brahm Gyani that will clear all doubts? Several who people hold as Brahm Gyani have already spoken on this issue and they have not convinced a majority of the panth.
     
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  10. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    know any Brahmgyani who will sit on a Hot Plate and get his body sawed into half...or get cut from limb to limb like Bhai Mani Singh...or walk with hsi head on his palm like Baba deep Singh Ji...YES I will beleive what THAT Brahmgyani says...not ones like the one who lied about Jarnail singh bhinderawalahs shaheedee to just remain in his post and avoid a new jathedar replacing him...UNTIL such a
    Brahmgyani@ appears..I will continue to BELIEVE IN Prof Darshan Singh as he has the Best CREDENTIALS...he knows what he is talking about without being a fake brahmgyani...
     
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  11. harbansj24

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    The question is not about being a Brahmgyani who may just one in millions. The question is about being a Sikh.

    Now if you are a Sikh and hundreds of thousands of people believe you, respect you and follow your spiritual views then as Sikh, IMHO you owe a responsibility. If you change your spiritual views overnight even for the most genuine reasons, then you do need to give detailed explanation to the Sikh Sangat. For such a changeover you have to admit that your earlier views were not correct and that you were not aware of the facts and now that new truths have come to light you are abandoning the the old beliefs and seek forgiveness of Sikh Sangat.
    But then what happens to the lakhs you have earned by singing the shabads from DG? What happens to the royalty earned from sale of tapes and cassettes containing the shabads and have they been withdrawn from the markets? These actions and questions are necessary not from any sadistic satisfaction but are necessary to maintain the credibility and sanctity of Sikhi.

    Now if what is purported to be carried by the tape is correct, then also there may be nothing wrong with it because the King can be interpreted as Dasam Pita since Bhai Nand Lal ji had called Guru ji a "Badshah" and "Shahenshah" in his verses. Where is the need to blame it on Dr. Jodh Singh's translations which he has promptly denied? He could have stood firm and said that was his understanding and he stands corrected if it was wrong.

    Another thing that troubles many Sikhs is that it plausible that nothing in the DG was written by or caused to be written by Guruji OR maybe a very small part may have been written by Guruji (We are clueless of what that part actually is). But then do we completely deny that it has been a part of of how we have evolved or a part of History and heritage?
    Can we deny that verses such as "Deh Shiva var Mohe hae...." which has been adopted by the Sikh Regiment right from its formation has not motivated thosands of Sikhs to unprecedented acts of valour?
    Leave alone some truly objectionable parts, can we not have the grace to say that though these are not Dasam Pita's compositions or compositions which have been approved by him, they now are a part of our glorious heritage and we can retain them? And for the objectionable parts can we not say that these have never been used by the Sikhs and make no sense to Sikhs and hence we have no use for them?

    And can we practice restraint as taught by our Gurus and refrain from labelling people as "Enemies of Panth" and such other terms. Can we not just be critical of the particular undesirable acts rather than wholesale condemnation of the person as such?

    Please forgive me if anything wrong has been said.
     
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  12. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    Rationality and sanity seems to be in rare commodity list among sikhs...just about "everybody" is labelling himself ( and maybe a few cohorts) as PANTHIC BODY/IES..SANGAT/S..Panthic Organsiations..etc etc. Just about everyone is an "institution"...a brahmgyani..an expert..what not. a Chauvarka (pamphlet) calls itself Panthic Newspaper..Voice of Sikh Panth...an "internet" news portal calls itself Panthic !! a Website calls itself that...and a Genuine Panthic Newspaper that publishes in the hundreds of thousands is read worldwide by even more is called anti-panthic/communist/nastikc etc etc..CHOOTH FIREH PARDHAAN VE LALO is so TRUE. LIES RULE !! and Liars are pardhaans !!Sach sunaisee sach kee bela ??? Is it time for the TRUTH ? i think it is.

    2. imho, Harbans ji is being a bit too "over the border" is asking Darshan Singh to return all royalties from Kirtan ....how sure are w e the "royalties" were due to DG or to Darshan Singhs voice ?? ability ? hw can we separate them..and why should this happen ? It is not as if that "royalties" were PUBLIC MONIES..which now should be returned as a crime has been uncovered or soemthing simialr...those monies were EARNED. The Ragi is making even MORE MONEY now that he tells the truth about DG...what happens to this money ?? should it go to some SGGS Fund ?? since its about the Supremacy of SGGS ??

    3. I garee with harbans Ji that we cna Rationalise it all and talk it out..BUT certian vested interests are not going to allow that to happen...can one not see that various FIRES are beign constantly kept flaring...one after the other..Nankshai Calendar..Ragi darshan Singh..Vienna incident..Sggs satikaar..DG...etc etc...the moment one fire looks liek dying down a slight bit..the Petrol is poured on it...right now its the TWIN Fires,,Nnaksahi Calendar/Ragi issue...to keep BADAL in POWER in the SGPC elections !!
     
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  13. veerpartapkhalsa

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  14. harbansj24

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    Thank you Gyaniji.
    Yes it may be impractical for him to pay back the exact Royalties earned by singing from DG. But the fact is that he had earned the money from singing of bani which he does not now believe in. He can symbolically gives say 1,2,3,4 or 5 lakhs to let's say Khalsa Orphanage in Amritsar or something similar.
    Nobody is going to grudge him the earnings from singing of Gurbani from SGGS since he believes in it. Nobody would have grudged him the earnings from DG also had he not publicly repudiated it. It is a question of intellectual, moral and spiritual honesty.
     
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  15. spnadmin

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    veerpartapkhalsa ji

    The labeling that has been referred to in earlier posts continues when Professor Darshan Singh is discussed in the same context as Kala Afghana. In fact the mere mention of Kala Afghana in this controversy has become a knee-jerk reflex -- and it is one of the older and therefore more tried and true techniques to get a discussion going in an irrational direction.

    All over the net - since almost the beginning of this controversy -- vested interests have been calling Professor Darshan a side-kick of Kala Afghana, or a Kala Afghana supporter. In recent weeks they have added to their collection. Now they have added "atheist" and more.

    It is the kind of thing that is designed to keep emotions so high that hysteria clouds thought, and rational discussion is impossible. In fact I think that is the agenda. By keeping emotions at a hysterical level debate becomes an impossibility. In the post by harbhansj24 there are a number of calmly argued ways to avert a division over this issue -- very intelligent solutions. Truly creative and original solutions. But now emotions have become so intense that we cannot expect anyone to hear, listen and think - thanks to all of these "I- am-going-to- punch-you-below-the-belt" name-calling episodes.

    And the name-calling is all coming from the DasamGranth-er side.
     
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  16. veerpartapkhalsa

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    Narayanjot Kaur ji
    I have listened to the video posted (link posted by me previously). I will request the whole sangat to listen to it and decide themselves.
    Oh God...I cant imagine Sri Guru Gobind Singh ji can write these words. Even if these are part of stories told by someone else. Guru ji cannot include such words in any Granth or Pothy.
    I have listened to this video with open mind. Please listen to it without thinking of Kala Afgana or anyone else. Listen to it as someone is translating word by word to u from direct Dasam Granth.
    And please come back to me if u can justify this kind of wording. See If ur "Antar Atma" says yes Guru Gobind Singh ji can say or write these words.
    Thanks
    Veer
     
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  17. spnadmin

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    I will show you two examples of the kind of language I referred to in an earlier post. These kinds of emails are circulated as mass broadcasts by mailing lists. The same small cluster of individuals are at the center of distribution. Their names have been deleted to keep their privacy sacred -- though they never worried about the rights to privacy of their opponents.

    Emails like this are never sent to me by those who support Professor Darshan Singh. It is quite amazing that, all throughout Gurbani, in the bani of Guru Teg Bahadur and of Sant Fareed, we are asked to keep our anger in check. This point is missed.

    Here is the kind of language that is used. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the substance of the issues regarding Bachitar Natak.

    Example 1 (Notice that tarsem singh has been added to the hit-list, whereas previously his name was rarely mentioned.)

    "We had developed very bad opinion about role of Parmjit singh Sarna because of his promoting of ragi Darshan. It is good to see that he has sided with gursikhs. he needs to rein in his communist buddy tarsem singh who spews venom against dasam bani and spoiling his reputation. he can still make amends by kicking ragi darshan and his atheist communist missionaries
    "

    Example 2 (You can see in this one that verses are used to proclaim a militarist position, but it is a sorry thing that these textual sources are being used to declare a holy war Sikh against Sikh)

    "Time has come to take these heretics seriously as a hand ful of them are misleading sikhs by propaganda.Their language is so foul that one can see what type life they may be leading.
    certainly this is not a sikh way. ragi darshan singh has no following abroad as is written in Punjabnewsline
    by one jagmohan singh. he is blacklisted in 18 gurudwaras of Toronto area. There is open challenge to him to try to come to califiornia.

    Their lies are publicized by Spokesman. it is a propaganda war being waged on sikhs and need to be combated. Wake up Khalsa ji.You owe it to guru sahib and his bani.
    "

    Where will one find such bani as given below> No mortal can write such verses except our tenth master.

    ਖਗ ਖੰਡ ਬਿਹੰਡੰ ਖਲ ਦਲ ਖੰਡੰ ਅਤਿ ਰਣ ਮੰਡੰ ਬਰ ਬੰਡੰ ॥
    खग खंड बिहंडं खल दल खंडं अति रण मंडं बर बंडं ॥

    The sword chops well, chops the forces of fools and this mighty one bedecks and glorifies the battlefield.

    ਭੁਜ ਦੰਡ ਅਖੰਡੰ ਤੇਜ ਪ੍ਰਚੰਡੰ ਜੋਤਿ ਅਮੰਡੰ ਭਾਨ ਪ੍ਰਭੰ ॥
    भुज दंड अखंडं तेज प्रचंडं जोति अमंडं भान प्रभं ॥
    It is the unbreakable staff of the arm, it has the powerful luster and its light even bedims the radiance of the sum.

    ਸੁਖ ਸੰਤਾ ਕਰਣੰ ਦੁਰਮਤਿ ਦਰਣੰ ਕਿਲਬਿਖ ਹਰਣੰ ਅਸਿ ਸਰਣੰ ॥
    सुख संता करणं दुरमति दरणं किलबिख हरणं असि सरणं ॥
    It brings happiness to the saints, mashing the vicious ones, it is the destroyer of sins and I and under its refuge.

    ਜੈ ਜੈ ਜਗ ਕਾਰਣ ਸ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਉਬਾਰਣ ਮਮ ਪ੍ਰਤਿਪਾਰਣ ਜੈ ਤੇਗੰ ॥੨॥
    जै जै जग कारण स्रिसटि उबारण मम प्रतिपारण जै तेगं ॥२॥
    Hail, hail to the cause of the world, saviour of the universe, it is my preserver, I hail its victory. 2.

    dasam granth sahib, Bachitra natak

    There is no propaganda war being waged. The war-cries are coming from one side only. The other side is maintaining its cool!
     
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  18. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    Heres a sample from a person who i have always admired..for her forthright views, absolutley ravishing humour and stickiness for the TRUTH and no mincing words..a MRS A Singh from Canada...

    a student of mine sent in this via email..

    What is so controversial about discussing dasam granth? Loomba/lamba has been doing it in tandem with Virsa sadh of Mina persuasion for a long time.
    It is not Darshan Singh who concocted the story...we have heard it many a time before. If this story has annoyed them I wonder why the real hard core stuff does not annoy them ...being covered in rumalas and kept in gurdwaras and attributed to Guru Sahib supposedly using it as a teaching tool for poor innocent bhujangis being corrupted by evil women..and lauding bhang afeem usage? Braj is not foreign lingo...it is easliy understood and so is the style of writing that points to the culprits being reinstated via new "research". Why not hold an open conference to do a line by line discussion on markandeya puraan (it says so in there) or bhagvad puraan? Then they turn around and 'ban' discussing DG. We need open, line by line, public i.e presence of women and children kind of exposure. THe vitriolic baba-virsa camp followers do not want it that way, they would shut people up and serve their RSS/Hindutava masters.

    Some issues and players:
    Dasam Granth: YouTube- Dasam Granth Exposed Part 1 of 6
    YouTube- May 22, 2008 - Interview on Vision TV about Dasam Granth
    YouTube- Bibi Jugraj Kaur talks about Dasam Granth on Gurbani Program
    Main promoters:
    YouTube- Broadcast Yourself.

    Issues with translators and translations:

    Here are some examples of translations, where it is obvious that the translater is fixted on making these writings into those of Guru Gobind Singh.

    CHAUPAI

    Amidst the milk-ocean, where the Immanent Lord was seated, Brahma reached there;

    *** "kal" purukh (under time constraints) is exact opposite of Akal (Timeless) of Gurmatt.

    The Lord called Vishnu near Him and said, "You go to the earth and assume the form of Krishna incarnation.2.

    *** so the Lord is now a discernable entity, summoning folks for pow-wows?
    ....

    CHAUPAI

    The sportive plays exhibited by Krishna, have been described in the tenth (skandh);

    Gyaraan hazaar baanvae channda; Kahae dasam pur baith ananda
    i.e Eleven thousand and ninety two 'channds', coined/spoken sitting blissfully, in the 'tenth'

    But it has somehow gotten translated as:
    (There are) eleven thousand and ninety-two stanzas in respect of Krishna incarnation in the tenth skandh.4.

    *** reference to Tenth "skand"..so how is this a 'writing' of Guru Sahib??

    SECTION

    (Ath deviju ki ustatt kathann)
    It is translated as:
    Now begins the description in praise of the goddess
    When it should read:
    *** Now begins the narration of the praise of the deviji
    ....

    SWAYYA

    On receiving Thy Grace, I shall assume all the virtues;
    I shall destroy all the vices, ruminating on Thy attributes in my mind;
    O Chandi! I cannot utter a syllable from my mouth without Thy Grace;
    *** the writer is obviously a devi bhagat

    DOHRA

    O mind! Remember(bhaj/chant) the goddess Sharda of innumerable qualities;
    And if she be kind, I may compose this Granth (based on) Bhagavata.6.

    *** the translater has translated it as "based upon",,,when the line says clearly: "Rachau granth eh bhagvad, jau vai kirpa karahe" i.e This granth Bhagvad IS composed, through the auspices of/when 'via or vah... that/her/him' showered grace. We are pretty certain Bahgvad Puraan is much older than 1700.s

    *** Granth "COMPOSED, "BASED" UPON BHAGVAD" It is NOT based Upon..it IS composed. Do we need to to be Sherlock Holmes to decipher this literature? Perhaps Loomba should stop jabbering and start reading.

    ********

    This is just one little example there are glaring mistranslations. This is definite subversion effort to impose brahmanic compositions on sikhs, by assigning them to Guru Sahib. 1984 was attack on ordinary sikhs on the street, this here is an 2009 attack on the core of sikhism. There is no discussion, exposure of this perverse granth, nor any valid translation nor and attempt to understand or answer,,,only character assasinations and 'ex-communications' of those who get up to question, by theses self-appointed executioners serving this or that poltical master. Sikhs need to set up open forums to get to the truth of this..or else they will be sacrifcing baby goats and waving weapons as objects of worship in gurdwaras ruled by the vicious thugs like the patna jathedar...and AGGS will be relegated to trash heaps.

    Mrs A Singh
    Toronto, Canada
     
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  19. spnadmin

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    Please thank Mrs. A. Singh for me. You have mentoned her work before to me. She is an expert translator. For her this must seem like the most painful experience, an assault on her intellect, her heart and her soul's being.
     
  20. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    IF I could only get her to join US at SPN...our "value added" Index would JUMP 1000% instantly..thats how good she is at all things Sikhi/Gurmatt/SGGS/Youth problems/sikh culture et al.....alas she has little time to spare...and YES Translator--par excellence !!
    When Guru Ji decides...she may join us...
     
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  21. veerpartapkhalsa

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    Sangat ji
    Thanks for all the input. Can someone point me in the right direction. I need to know if above mentioned link (previously posted by me) has got the right translations (word by word) specially in part 5. If not then what and where can I find the right translations of the same? If these are the right translations then Can we even think our Guru ji has put these stazas or sentences or words in a Pothy or Granth?

    **Please note that I am only a humble sikh not affliated with anyone just a common man!!
    Thanks
    Veer
     

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