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Confused...

Discussion in 'Sikh Youth' started by Harman Singh, Jun 12, 2006.

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  1. Harman Singh

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    Well I know this is my first post here, but I was hoping to get some feedback on some issues. As strong as my faith in sikhi was growing up, I am finding it hard to maintain the same level of devotion to god through strictly faith. I've been through a lot in my life at the young age of 22, and have faced death many times, the latest leaving my facial bones and skull being literally broken almost everywhere. After this last encounter with death I thought my faith would be stronger than ever since i walked away with minor scarring and a couple of facial plate installations... but it isn't. I am currently in medical school (well not as of right now but returning in September) and throughout my life i have kept my hair and cut it 3 times, I feel this urge to discover sikhi but I can't come to terms with myself logically or scientificaly of this being "god" that sits back and watches us dance on stage and lets such cruelty go unpunished in our lives and than cares to judge us on our actions. I've read a lot of theories and the closest I can come to correlating sikhi to scientific proven data is: God is a being of energy that runs through all life, however is not conscious. To be forward I have not meditated in 3 years, and I drink heavily, my character is good but I have my share of bad habits and history. I feel this urge to learn and discover truth but the more i read sicentific theories and papers, the harder i find it to believe in a higher being that can let 200 000 ppl die in tsunami's, let evil men control the masses, stand back without intervention or direct solid evidence of his existence adn than judge us for a cycle of reincarnation. I knwo my post is all over the place but I'm on the verge of breaking here, my mind is split into two right now, the only thing keeping me to believe in this higher being, is when i did do simran it was a unique feeling of clairity, and this constant feeling of destiny. I have had this feeling that I am obligated to do something, a divine work of sort and everything around me is hinting at it and trying to guide me in the right path, but than there is so much driving me away... sorry if this post made no sense, I just needed to vent and get some of this down.
     
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  3. Anoop

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    Sat sri akal Harman singh ji,

    From what i have read about your life, you dont have to worry. There is no such thing as bad or good in life. It depends if it makes you feel bad, but if you dont feel bad about it then dont worry. We are here on earth to learn things. Do you find sikhism hard? Remember, your faith in god is personal!!! It could be different then others, god lives in you, infact we are all part of the supreme concious god. wE JUST HAVE TO FEEL IT AND FIND IT WITH LOVE. Sometimes it can be hard to follow something that you know will get you somewhere but then again, it might not be suitable for you. Sometimes it will be hard to keep up with everything in sikhism, because there is not enough time for anything, as this world is a modern world. But you can still carry on the best of your ability to reach to god. We are all different, and have different feelings towards god. 'God is personal', its in your heart. Meditation is the best way to carry on.
    There is nothing bad in life, call it crime, death or what ever. Why is it that we always want god to stop everything, why dont we see everything being perfect, that is because we want to survive, we want survival, well everyone has some debts with thier soul and other souls have other missions in this earthly world.

    If everything was just good in life, then how will our soul make progress? Ofcourse there will be problems that we humans cannot face, but sometimes it could be time for others who have died to go back to god, god does this for reasons, there are souls who are working in the spiritual world this moment, everything is NATURAL!, we have to look at it closley!!

    What ever happens dont regret in life, and ofcourse it wont matter, stress etc hapens and its natural so dont worry.

    Just have faith in god in ur heart, listen to shabad, you need to love god in order to get love back. There is nothing wrong in life.

    Well goodluck, and dont worry about anything, as this adventure is just the beginning of the truth. Whatever happens we will alaways be united with god.
     
  4. max314

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    Hey, man, hope you're doing good at the moment.

    You said:

    "I've read a lot of theories and the closest I can come to correlating sikhi to scientific proven data is: God is a being of energy that runs through all life, however is not conscious."

    According the Mool Mantra:


    "There is but one God. He is all that is.
    He is the Creator of all things and He is all-pervasive.
    He is without fear and without emnity.
    He is timeless, unborn and self-existent.
    He is the Enlightener
    And can be realised by his grace alone.
    He was ni the beginning; He was in all ages.
    The True One is, was - O Nanak - and shall forever be."


    Guru Granth Sahib
    Japji, p.1


    There is nothing there that suggests a 'conscious' entity. In fact, the Mool Mantra removes God from pretty much every human construct: form, name, emotion, agenda and existence.

    Emotion, it would seem, is a human construct. It's a biochemical reaction within the body. They are essentially just survival instincts. 'Fear', for example, is necessary to avert dangerous situations. 'Love' exists in two forms: between a man and a woman, and between a community. The former is a necessity for procreation, and the latter is a derivation of the 'survival by numbers'. It is also important to remember that organisms are programmed to spend their lives avoiding death; the one thing that is the only guarantee in life. As such, believing that there is a 'life beyond life' or an entity beyond death is like a mental sedative to ease the pain that all organisms feel when confronted with death.

    What Guru Nanak did was to say that every part of the cosmos is both the alpha and the omega. "Ek Onkar", the concept that the entire universe is ONE. As such, 'life' and 'death', 'love' and 'fear', 'faith' and 'destiny' are wys for the limited human mind to describe and quantify the phenomena it experiences from an undefinable and infinite cosmos.

    But just because these things are human constructs, does that make them irrelevent?

    Well, no.

    The thing is that we may not be sure that these emotions are 'real' in an objective sense, but what we do know is that they 'matter'. If we don't believe in these 'delusions' for the time that we are on Earth, it is possible for us to fall into the Nietzschean nihilistic void. Which tends to lead to insanity.

    What Guru Nanak did was to take that 'void' and turn it into the Ultimate Truth, and to ensure that people would life a Virtuous Life while we are here.

    Hehe...isn't it funny? Suddenly, issues like 'hair' and 'robes' start to seem so inconsequential :}{}{}:

    Personally, I think that Guru Nanak had it figured. I also happen to think that many people who think that they are doing as Guru Nanak said...are actually not. They think that by "reading Bani a lot", that they are - by default - coming closer to some indescript 'salvation'. I don't think so.

    But that's me.

    "One may read for years and for years,
    And spend every month of every year in reading only;
    And thus read all one's life,
    Right up to one's last breath.
    Of all things, a contemplative life
    Is really what matters
    ;
    All else is the fret and fever of egoistic minds."


    Guru Granth Sahib
    Asa, p.467
     
  5. Harman Singh

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    Wow, thanks Max. That did help a lot. I have a lot amartari, pro revolutionist, very insightful friends, and they tell me the same in a sense. They say read the bani all you want it wont help you with what i seek, but meditation is key if im going to start again anywhere. I guess I have to start soon. But very insightful post, thanks.
     
  6. drkhalsa

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    I would like you elaborate more on this .


    As for gurbani I would like to share what my current understanding says:

    Gurbani reading/ reciting is used by different people in different way and also it changes as you progress further in lifeand spirtuality ,the types I have observed are :

    >Read Gurbani as kind of religious / holy duty and it make them feel secure and really helpful for maintaing sound psychological health
    > Some read Gurbani to draw direction in their life which mostly consitutes the moral laws, relation , diets , and all these issue whicj we usually disscus here on forums
    >Some read gurbani strong ideation of achieving something worthwhile whether it is materialistic or spirtual and it includes Salvation
    >and Some read/Sing gurbani as act of Praise , fulfilment , ecstacy and it could be compared to roller coaster ride which one just take for sake of ejoyment you get nothing to conclude , nothing to learn , nothing to discuss but just enjoy the ride!

    But still the important thing is that it is not the person who decided that how he will approach gurbani but the Akal only decided this.



    Jatinder Singh
     
  7. max314

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    My pleasure :wink:

    What specifically would you like me to elaborate on? I think I was pretty clear, but do let me know what it is that needs elaboration.
     
  8. drkhalsa

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    Thnks!

    If You think it is pretty clear then I dont think any further elaboration is going to help me

    Jatinder Singh
     
  9. max314

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    Not a problem - thanks for reading :thumbup:
     
  10. simpy

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    Respected Max314 Ji,

    i been looking at the translations of Mool Mantra you been referring to, seems like you missed meaning of "SatNaam" and "JAP" altogether. It seems like you are translating it from "Ek Omkar.... to Bhi Sach", but no refference of Satnaam and jap there in your translations. Am i missing something or you are just ignoring that or it is just a copy/paste mistake.

    Can you please throw some light on it :confused: . Can you please refer me to the source of these translations as well. I will really appreciate your effort.


    Thanks a lot.

    Respected Veer Jatinder Singh Ji,


    You are so right about it, it is all the decision of Akal Purkh.

    As it is all Him and Him Alone:
    We cannot think apart from Him
    We cannot speak apart from Him
    We cannot see apart from Him
    We cannot hear/listen apart from Him
    We do not breathe apart from Him
    In fact nothing happens or can happen apart from Him.

    Guru Bhala Karey
     
    #9 simpy, Jun 19, 2006
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2006
  11. max314

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    I can't say I'm entirely sure what you're saying (I'm hoping you'll clarify this), but I have taken this translation from 'The Sikhs' by world-renowned writer on Indo-Sikkh affairs, Patwant Singh.
     
  12. Dimitri

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    SGGS and Dasam Granth make strong indications on what God isn't, so the public can move away form practicing blind rituals, idol worship etc.
    But what exactly is GOD. Is it an energy that caused Big Bang? Einstein spend last 30 yrs of his life working on so called "Theory of God" trying to sum up God in a mathematical equation well not so God but this whole creation or Gods work, offcourse he didn't succed.

    If in your heart you know that something is out there, The Creator, God, well don't let go. Believe in it and also when u read bani or do simran u feel great..well do more of that...just my 2 cents worth.

    dude, i feel exactly like you when it comes to talking about this kinda stuff. i feel i am crazy and make no sense (i have a feeling we are not the only one. so relax)
     
  13. simpy

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    Respected Max314 Ji,

    my question is crystal clear; i am looking for the meaning of "Satnam" and "Jap", out of this translation that you are claiming to be "Mool Mantra".

    I have this book that you are refferring to. Patwant Singh Ji is not claiming it to be Mool Mantra. He is simply refferring to Page 1(SGGS). So these are the ideas written on page 1, he is explaining Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Nanak Dev Ji's concept of "one God".

    i also saw his references from page 467(SGGS), have you checked that out. This one is also not a word to word translation of any single stanza on that page. yes it is very similar to piV piV gfI ldIAih ...

    This is what you say is Mool Mantra:
    "There is but one God. He is all that is.
    He is the Creator of all things and He is all-pervasive.
    He is without fear and without emnity.
    He is timeless, unborn and self-existent.
    He is the Enlightener
    And can be realised by his grace alone.
    He was ni the beginning; He was in all ages.
    The True One is, was - O Nanak - and shall forever be."



    This is how Mool Mantra is:
    <> siqnwmu krqw purKu inrBau inrvYru
    Akwl mUriq AjUnI sYBM gurpRswid ]

    ]jpu]
    Awid scu jugwid scu ] hY BI scu
    nwnk hosI BI scu ]1]



    Now let us associate the translations with Mool Mantra:

    <>
    There is but one God.

    siqnwmu
    NO TRANSLATION GOES WITH IT

    krqw purKu
    He is the Creator of all things


    inrBau inrvYr
    He is without fear and without emnity.

    My comments: I think it should be enmity instead of emnity.

    Akwl mUriq AjUnI sYBM

    He is timeless, unborn and self-existent.





    gurpRswid ]
    And can be realised by his grace alone.

    ]jpu]
    NO TRANSLATION GOES WITH IT

    Awid scu jugwid scu ]
    He was ni the beginning; He was in all ages.

    My comments: typo “ni” should be “in”.

    hY BI scu
    nwnk hosI BI scu ]

    The True One is, was - O Nanak - and shall forever be


    Can you please tell me what goes with the following in the translations:
    He is all that is.
    and He is all-pervasive
    He is the Enlightener



    Please do not take it as I am trying to denounce something. It is my nature that I cannot do surface sailing. When I read Bani(in any language) I try to read it correctly and in its original form.

    “Truth is His Name” and “Embrace His Meditation” these are two very important facts mentioned in Bani over and over again. And being an inseparable part of Mool Mantra, I am trying to find these in the English version of Mool Mantra posted by yourself. Different people put these facts in different ways, but at least these facts are there in some form, e.g. Khushwant Singh has done the translations of JapJi Sahib in English.
    “There is One God.
    He is the supreme truth.
    He, The Creator,
    Is without fear and without hate.
    He, The Omnipresent
    Pervades the universe.
    He is not born,
    Nor does He die to be born again.
    By his grace shalt thou worship Him.
    Before time itself
    There was the Truth.
    When time began to run its course
    He was the truth.
    Even now, He is the truth
    And
    Evermore shall truth prevail.
    (NANAK)
    These lines are know as the Mool Mantra the Basic Belief.”


    I have a lot of versions of translations of Gurbani. In everyone of them in Mool Mantra both facts "TRUTH" and "JAP" is explained very well. Even by those who claim it to be only from "Ek-Omkaar" to "Gurprasaad".


    Thanks for your time and consideration.

    Guru Bhala Karey

    Respected Veer Harman Singh Ji,

    i know i have taken this thread towards a discussion on the meaning of Mool Mantra, please forgive me if it causes any inconvenience.


    Guru Bhala Karey
     
    #12 simpy, Jun 20, 2006
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2006
  14. max314

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    Surinder:

    Translations are never easy. Harder still is the attempt to translate poetry. Customs, habits, humour and - sometimes - entire concepts that are so clearly communicable or poetically cohesive in one language have no worthy equivalent in another. Being a student and enthusiast of modern poetry, I am very familiar with this.

    "satnäm" is often literally translated as "True Name" ("sat" meaning "truth" and "näm" meaning "name"). But the poetic impact of the word "satnam" is almost impossible to give true justice to in the English language.

    "Supreme Truth"? Maybe...

    "Ultimate Truth"? Perhaps...

    Of course, the use of the term "näm" can be interpreted as meaning that God has a name. A human name. It goes without saying that God exists within no such constructs. So what actually is "näm"? It is a concept that is expressed with a word that can only hint at an intuitive understanding. This is why the Granth is written in poetics and in metaphoric prose and not as a science journal. Like any art or poetry, it is a physical representation of something that can never truly be physically represented. It's the meaning 'behind the lines' that counts. One line on its own doesn't give it true justice. The entire shabbad is more 'truthful', and truer still is an appreciation of the text in its original language (by "original language", I'm referring to the culture, customs and a subliminal socio-political awareness that simply is not the same in today's times).

    The term "jap" faces a similar dilemma. Literally translated, it means "speak". It has also been translated as meaning "recite" or "meditate". This is less ambiguous than the concept of "näm", but the issue of translating it into a phrase that is poetically palpable in English still exists. I mean, the best I can come up with is "all together now...!" :{-:)

    I think that Patwant Singh's omission of these terms in their element results in their implied presence throughout the passage in general. When trying to garner poetic impact in a different language and in an attempt to communicate certain implicit sensibilities, it was probably necessary to omit such terms in order to allow the translated passage to speak for itself instead of weighing it down with the burdens of ambiguity that a word-for-word translation with minimal emotional resonance would have put upon it.

    But that's not to worry anyone about anything. The words remain in their original form within the Granth, and alternative translations exist. Whether we consider it to be the true Mool Mantra or a summation of its properties of God is irrelevant. What matters is the fact that the founding tennets upon which the entire Granth is still faithfully represented.
     
  15. simpy

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    Respected Max314 Ji,


    With God’s grace we all have our own concepts developed about reading Bani.


    My views about Mool Mantra:

    This verse is not mere poetry. Calling it mere poetry is like disrespecting something so invaluable. For me it is that pure message that sprung out from Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Nanak Dev Ji's lips (like nectar/Amrit) and this can make anybody pure (khalas).
    This is the basis of Sikhism. This is the first composition uttered by Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Nanak Dev Ji upon enlightenment. Entire theology of Sikhism is encapsulated in this one phrase. So this must be understood entirely, though it is the most difficult composition.


    When i look at it, it seems like all the rest of the Bani is an effort to explain which is contained within this one phrase.


    Even literal translations of the words “Mool Mantra” mean the Main chant or Root verse.

    So i believe that all that is said in this verse must be mentioned without omitting anything, especially the main essence “Satnaam” and “Jap”.

    Each and every word has a very very deep meaning, for instance:


    Ekomkaar- It denotes that One and only One God manifests (Himself) ceaselessly throughout (His) creation in all diverse forms (so that it can be known by (His) creation….). One and Only One primordial sound, (which continues when everything else ceases). One Ocean with many waves. I can go on and on over this one word alone.


    In my opinion this one verse, if understood and FOLLOWED (LIVED) can tap into an eternal reservoir of power (that can enable anyone to overcome any issues and all worldly problems. All weaknesses can be overcome, physical and mental healing can be done, financial independence can be achieved, spiritual awakening can be achieved, prosperity beyond the wildest dreams can be manifested, and what not).




    i do not think i can leave a single word out of it, if i want to understand the entire concept. This philosophy of oneness of God is not easy to understand.



    Again that is just me; one tiny little spec in the infinite.

    Guru Bhala Karey
     
  16. max314

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    "Mere poetry"? That sounds like a disrespect to "poetry" :D

    In the words of man, the poetic form that man had constructed, and designed specifically for man to read, this is poetry. And there is nothing "mere" about poetry. It is an art form that has allowed the greatest thinkers and philosophers of our society to express that which is almost impossible to express. Believe me, there is no disrespect in calling it poetry. Especially since that is exactly what it is.

    Indeed. I have said in the past that every shabbad that succeeds the Mool Mantra is a re-itteration of this philosophy with respect to a specifically-selected subject.

    Yes, yes, very much so. It is the core from which Gurbani and the cosmic concept itself is spawned.

    Okay.



    I should hope so, too.

    Yes.

    But delusory experiences can also be reached by using illicit substances :}{}{}: The important thing in terms of how God relates to our Earthly lives is to understand how to balance the two realms. After all, kirt karo is given the utmost priority.

    Actually, it is. Which is the beauty of Nanak's philosphy.

    There is no difference, my sister, between the spec and the infinite :wink:
     
  17. simpy

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    Respected Max314 Ji,


    We are talking about ultimate peace here my dear. That can only be achieved with Sacha Naam Simran/Meditation on God/………




    You have been talking about kirt karo being the priority. Have you ever thought that this is in the direct contradiction of what you been saying in your posts under the thread ”Lying” and some other.

    Again i am not trying to denonce anybody. We are all learning.

    Kirt Karo is one of the golden rules (also stated as three pillars) for every Sikh; derived from teachings of Gurbani. Some people claim that these rules are a summary of Guru Nanak’s teachings.

    What “KIRT KARO” is “Sachi kirt karo”, again people have dropped “Sachi” off of it for their own convenience and are limiting the meaning of it. Anyways what it means is: TO BE HONEST IN EVERY THOUGHT, WORD AND DEED. This includes all what you do (no exceptions). You must have heard people say-MANN DE SIKH BANO.

    And in my opinion this advice is universally applicable. That is why we say that Sikhi is not just a religion, IT IS A WAY OF LIFE.


    Why Sachi kirt is important and is chosen to be one of the golden rules; because it leads us to the perfect alignment of our BODY, MIND AND SOUL.

    {If you remember from the support of your arguments from that thread “Lying”, you were literally saying that to save someone’s life if you have to lie, it is OK.

    My dear, First of all when we start thinking that it is us who are doing everything, as per say saving someone’s life; It is pure ego. It means that we do not trust God, instead we are totally enslaved by the ego. And in any case when we say something else and truth is something else, we are loosing our touch with the Ultimate.}


    A sikh is supposed to be honest in all his/her dealings and has to practice truthfulness at all the time. His/her lips should be saying what his/her heart knows.


    Just an effort to clarify "KIRT KARO".


    Guru Bhala Karey.
     

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