Compilation Of Dasam Granth By Kuldip Singh

[harbansj24]

Tejwant ji,

For the time being I can only humbly repeat what I had replied to Gyaniji for the time being. This is copied and pasted below. I also repeat what I have said t o Narayanjot ji that I am only indulging in "Chota mukh, badi bath" So kindly forgive me:

This is all alright. But are we all of sudden going to tell the Sikh Panth that Guru Gobind Singh ji did not compose anything at all?
Ok, if we are convinced that Guru Gobind Singh ji did write or caused to be written the 3 Nitnem Banis and not anything else can we not say that with conviction? And strongly refute claim that just because these Banis belong to Bachitter Natak, so the entire Natak is to assumed as authentic. And can this not be done cleanly without casting personal aspirations on persons saying such incorrect things? We must understand that by casting such aspirations we are only destroying our creditability and ability to debate cleanly. If the opposite side chooses to argue in such a manner that is their problem. We need not copy that.

We must also try and develop clarity on what exactly Guru Gobind Singh ji want us to do at the time of administering Amrit to Panj Piaras. We cannot try to end a edifice which held for so long without having an alternate ready and say with conviction: " Yes this it is!" Each side cannot be saying to the other all the time where is the evidence and when it comes it comes to its turn say that " Guru Gobind Singh jis work does not call for evidence!

Otherwise both sides who claim to respect the Tenth Master the maximum will not be doing any justice to Him or to the Panth at all.

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Harbans Ji,

Its not chhota mukh badee baat..its your humility...and I respect that wholeheartedly.
All that everyone involved is asking is that the Akal Takhat and the sgpc and others get together a Sodhak Comittee and do a thorough study of all the matter and give a decision that is binding on all. After all TODAY we have much better and more qualified persons than the "sodhak comittee" of early 20 th century that created the present Bachitar Natak Granth in its present form.
This problem has been festering for past ten years..yet the Authorities that are responsible are just sitting on it and watching the fun..WHY ?? is for anyone to guess. My guess is that they are not in favour of getting this controversy resolved as that leads to a stronger Guru Khalsa Panth which then threatens their own posts.The Staus Quo serves their interests well..hence no action except lip service.So while the NERO Jathedars play their Vaajas and Fiddles the ROME that is the Panth burns !! And DERAS proliferate which in turn is GOOD NEWS for their POLITICAL MASTERS.
Thus SIKHS must get PROACTIVE..and get EDUCATED. Firts priority is the SGGS..each Sikh should get a Copy of the Gurur Garnth darpan by Sahib Singh, Teekas by Bhai Vir Singh, harbans Singh, Manmohan Singh and study the SGGS so that he/she is fully conversnat with GURBANI..and then he/she can state opinions form a point of STRENGTH of GURBANI. Presently 95% of Sikhs havent a clue as to what is inside SGGS...99.99% havent a clue as to what is Bachittar Natak...BUT acting like SHEEP following whatever "shepherd" they see..they Bay like wolves..baring their teeth to anyone that opposes them..Their "shepherds" are actually Wolves in sheeps clothing..leading
them to the slaughter..

Every SIKH worth his salt should be advocating first and foremost the SGGS as the One and Only GURU..ALL OTHER BOOKS must take second spot..OUTSIDE the Gurus darbaar. INSIDE only the GURBANI of SGGS takes PRIME SPOT.

 

[spnadmin]

Yes Narayanjot ji, we can blame Britishers for that. But now we will have to figure out pretty fast what exactly Dasam Pita wanted Sikhs to do when he administered Khande Pahul da Amrit for the first time to Panj Piaras. We cannot demolish an edifice ( I am going far beyond my pygmy intellect) and not have an alternate in place.

harbhansj24 If you had a pygmy intellect, this discussion would have been over in 2 minutes because no one else would be paying attention. So apparently you have stirred some serious thought and a pygmy intellect can't do that. There are banis' that most agree are by the Dasam Pita, though some do not. I wouldn't worry about the destruction of that "edifice" of I think you mean Khande Pahul da Amrit (I am not sure if that is the edifice you are referring to). There is a simple and clean way to decide about the pannas that are actually not in dispute. Are the words there consistent with the ideas of Adi Granth. For example, is there anything in Jap Sahib that contradicts Adi Granth? Not in the estimation of most. It is possible to compare, contrast, decide and still understand that the texts that were bundled together as Bachitar Natak and later, much later called, Dasam Granth may not belong together. That is the one simple claim that is being put forward. That is it.

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Harbans Ji,
You give too little respect to the "Edifice" if you think it can collapse just like that due to a book. The Ediifice is Akal Purakh KI Fauj...his very own Khalsa...and it has roots going deep into Pataal...the Mughals failed, the Britsh failed and the Independent Indian Govt has also failed...the tree may have lost a few (even more) of its branches...but as long as its roots remain firmly rooted in SGGS..nothing can shake it.
The Difference between SGGS and the "edifice" is that the Khalsa is SUBSERVIENT to SGGS which reigns SUPREME. Khalsa Rehit is changeable accordingly..BUT nothing in SGGS can be changed. That is the Real BEAUTY and Genius in this arrangement...One THING remains CONSTANT..Akal Purakh..His SHABAD..the SGGS...the other can change accordingly. That is also WHY the Gurus took special pains and care to WRITE down the SGGS in their own direct SUPERVISION...and left the Khalsa Rehit to be written by followers...Guru Gobind Singh nJi didnt write a single word about what happeend/shoudl be done etc about vasakhi 1699 as that is under the KHALSA Prerogrative...and the KHALSA did make use of its powers to write the SRM in 1945..and cna do so again and again..as the centuries pass...ALL Chnages must pass the LITMUS TEST of the One CONSTANT..Gurbani of Gurshabad in SGGS. There is the "nuclear Clock" against which all the worlds clocks are checked...that is SGGS..the Khalsas Nuclear Clock.

The REAL TRAITOR is one who raises doubts about SGGS...its Banis..its bhagats..its Bhatts..its farids and its Ravidasses...because he is trying to demolish the REAL EDIFICE..the AKAL TAKHAT of the CREATOR...the SGGS.:advocate:

 

[harbansj24]

Khalsa Rehit is changeable accordingly..BUT nothing in SGGS can be changed. That is the Real BEAUTY and Genius in this arrangement...One THING remains CONSTANT..Akal Purakh..His SHABAD..the SGGS...the other can change accordingly. That is also WHY the Gurus took special pains and care to WRITE down the SGGS in their own direct SUPERVISION...and left the Khalsa Rehit to be written by followers...Guru Gobind Singh nJi didnt write a single word about what happeend/shoudl be done etc about vasakhi 1699 as that is under the KHALSA Prerogrative...and the KHALSA did make use of its powers to write the SRM in 1945..and cna do so again and again..as the centuries pass...ALL Chnages must pass the LITMUS TEST of the One CONSTANT..Gurbani of Gurshabad in SGGS. There is the "nuclear Clock" against which all the worlds clocks are checked...that is SGGS..the Khalsas Nuclear Clock.

Thank you Gyani ji. This definitely is food for thought. I will definitely ponder over it.

 

[harbansj24]

Yes Narayanjot ji. It does concern me and I think millions of Sikhs, if the faith and belief in Amrit is put on question. Millions of Sikhs have been inspired by it. Dasam pita had made eagles out of sparrows put the sort of determination in his Sikhs that exhibited unbelievable superhuman valour in absolutely ordinary human beings. There could be many impostors but by and large it did a lot to enhance a Sikhs faith in Simran and SGGS. The Stirring Shabads associated with Amrit sanchar also played a significant role. Unfortunately these are being questioned by many today.

You are absolutely right none of the nitnem Banis contradict each other and even supposing they were not composed or even caused to have been composed by Dasam Pita, I feel they should be continued as they only enhance our belief in SGGS.

 

[spnadmin]

harbhansj24 ji

Good that we agree on the banis. As for disagreement in general -- here is something to think about -- I heard it said by a tribal leader in South America in a TV documentary many years ago.

Without questions there is closure. And closure is ignorance.Let there always be questions between brother and brother. To me that means that we have to share our disagreements in order to fully comprehend the other person. Closing down the diversity does not contribute to learning. Forgive me now for being a little too much the "preacher."

 

[harbansj24]

Yes Narayanjot ji, I agree that questions must be asked. But asking properly framed and agenda less questions and questions whose only motivation is to add value, must be one of the most difficult tasks. But questions which which are divisive and destructive and serve no other purpose are best avoided.

Yes destruction also is sometimes constructive but only if the existing structure is dangerous and must quickly be put out of harm's way.

In my opinion, Khande Pahul da Amrit has not yet reached that stage.

I do hope, I have framed my expression properly so that it is understood with the right intent

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Khandey Battee dee Pahul is in no danger - simply because there is no replacement for this.
Guru Gobind Singh Ji brought to a completion the Divine Hukm under which Guru Nanak Ji came to this world at Vasakhi 1699 and Ordained the PANJ to spread the Khalsa..the Akal Purakh Ki fauj..under the Tabiah..command of SGGS as the Sole GURU. The Khalsa is of the Akal Purakh, the Tkahat of SGGS is of the same Akal Purakh and the two complement each other - as long as there is One..there will always be the Other..BOTH are the two sides of the Same COIN..Royal Coinage of Akal Purakh.
People with vested interests in the destruction of BOTH - Khalsa and SGGS are the real traitors because they "play" BOTH sides..on one hand they say SGGS is flawed..it has this bani and that bani which is not right..it should be "edited"...bhagat banis removed, blah blah..and then they say that the Khalsa is in danger IF certain books are not accepted on par with SGGS..Phaul is under attack, nitnem is under attack etc blah blah blah...when in FACT its all a Bare faced LIE. IF ALL SIKHS never compromise and shift away from SGGS as their One and ONLY SOLE GURU on the Throne of Akal..Akal Takhat..there can be no way for these traitors to play us out. Since the time of Guru NANAK Ji, the traitors have been trying their level best to TAKE US AWAY FROM GURBANI....by writing "Kachi false Banis under Name of nanak" to FOOL SIKHS..Guru Amardass ji WARNED US about this chaal..trickery...and it got so bad by the time of Guru Arjun ji that Guru Ji compiled the POTHI SAHIB to AUTHENTICATE the ORIGINAL NANAK CHHAAP GURBANI in such a way as to make the Enemy FAIL....and Fail he did. The MUNDAWNNI SEAL placed by Guru Arjun Ji has sealed the SGGS so Water TIGHT that no adulteration was possible, no changes..no way to BREAK the sanctity of SGGS. The Traitors thn shifted strategy..they decided to cast DOUBTS on the contents of SGGS..Bhagat bani, Bhatt swaiyahs, etc..and also to doubt whether Guru Gobind Singh Ji really passed on GURGADEE to SGGS. Thus the Namdharees, the Radha Soamis etc etc came out in the open to attack the Guru ship of SGGS...and other traitors have continued to attack this GURUSHIP in more COVERT WAYS...by PROMOTING SHREEKS of SGGS..raising Competitors.. PRETENDERS to the THRONE to stake their claim as Bani of Guru gobind Singh Ji. They IGNORE that Guru Gobind Singh Ji Himself made the decision to NOT include any of his writings in SGGS, or place his writings on par with SGGS..and PRETEND to make those decisions on Guru Jis BEHALF. The Guru Khalsa Panth will NOT let these traitors, pretenders succeed in their nefarious plans..they have FAILED since 1469..and they will FAIL again and again.:welcome:

 

[ballym]

Is it necessary to be Amritdhari to discuss authenticity of dasam Granth? If so, disregard whatever I say because I am ineligible.
A thorough research methodology looks at any issue with standard , systematic approach. It asks basic questions like:
Is the sampling proper? Is the result reproducible?
Likewise, Historical research must have standard questions and points for proving or disproving anything.
Has such process ever taken up apart from SGPC meeting which do not seem to be( I am not judging here) methodical. Are these meetings truely democratic in real sense.( America is a democracy... you have freedom but can you differ from your boss? if yes how many times?)
Each such research has its term of reference which must be complete and thorough so that the reasearch gives desired answers (unlike 1984 riots commissions which kept on saying that this point or that point was not in their term of reference and they did not check it!!)
As per my understanding, Dasam Guru's writings must be matched with what was happening around, what kind of direction he gave during his lifetime. What else he has written during that time.
Simply saying that He can not be questioned is not right. It is not Our Guru's Bani I am questuioning. Why is it not possible that part of it was not from His pen. Why did he not preach what he wrote?
Why did he organise important history making Khalsa Saajna in 1699 but never cautioned Sarbat Khalsa about Tiriya Charittar during that sarbat khalsa? Does the Granth Saahib say that " Beware of a bad ladies' behaviour but you must face it because you must also marry and have a grihasth( Married) Life. Does those verses teach you about married life, how to raise children, how to treat neighbours, how to identify enemy, how to check a deceiving friend which is very very important. Inmy view, more important than being beware of tiriya charittar. And my favorite line... why no other eligion thought it that important to caution people in such great details? Why not other Gurus?
After one reads through the material on this website and reasearch material elsewhere, one can say for sure that Guru ji did not compose all what ever is stated as His writings.
Look at current efforts to make Bhindranwale as 11th or some other Gurudom. After some years , it will be taken as truth if we do not act now.
BTW... sikhsangat.com also behaves in same way as Panthic.org. They do not accept ANY objction to Sri Dasam Granth.

 

[spnadmin]

ballym ji

Sometime in the later part of 2007 the SGPC requested that bickering over the Dasam Granth cease. All Sikhs were requested/required to stop discussing the authenticity of the granth. The SGPC said that it would constitute a panel of scholars to look into a systematic review/analysis. It never happened. Before then and after Professor Darshan Singh was routinely and harshly criticized for questioning the authenticity of the granth.

So far no panel has been convened. The discussions cooled down for a short time and then heated up again in 2008.

No you do not have to amritdhari to discuss the authenticity of Dasam Granth. You do not even need to be a Sikh. Scriptural scholars who have the knowledge, ability and experience to conduct such a systematic study may indeed include both Sikhs and non Sikhs. But let me end with just one unhappy thought. Those scholars of Sikh studies in India and elsewhere who have the credentials to do the job are torn to shreds on a regularl basis by Dasam Granth supporters. It is actually unparalleled behavior among scholars.

If you were an expert, but ran the risk of being declared a Guru nindak would you volunteer?

 

[ballym]

Globalsikhstudies have the kind of research I was looking for. Simple facts distorted by politicians for gain.
Why do they pass a resolution after some years and then forget about the granth for many years.
It is raised again when conditions are favorable,just to create doubts in sikhs.

 

[spnadmin]

ballym ji

My hypothesis is that they had no intention of building a consensus or support for a serious dialog or investigation. SAD and Badal had more important fish to fry. Remove the opposition. If Vendanti looks as if he is going to be stubborn, kick him out. Then line up all possible support from Sant Samaj, Nirankari, derawale babas. Celebrate with the RSS/BJP. Now the vote bank is in place, the coffers are full of cash. Take down the Nanakashai calendar next to prove that you are a party/man of your word. Show that no one can really do anything really serious to stop you. Now the time is right. Ponder and execute the excommunication against Professor Darshan Singh. It happened according to plan, the timing was right, or so they thought.

So now the entire discussion of Dasam Granth -- entirely academic. Dasam Granth never was the game. It was only the football. Forgive me.