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Chautha Paur or Separate Baptism for outcastes

Discussion in 'Hard Talk' started by vijaydeep Singh, Jul 31, 2007.

  1. vijaydeep Singh

    vijaydeep Singh
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    Gurfateh

    for last 6 months or so das was a bit depressed by some observations das saw in Nihungs of the Punjab.

    Namly Budhadal and Bidhi Chandiya Taruna Dal both domnated by jatts.

    Das was to go for baptism at Delhi by Nihungs on 26.01.2007. But Baba Balbeer Singh Ji did not bring the Bata or bowl so were told to go to Damdama Sahib on 17 Feb 2007.

    on both the dates das was acompaned by Dr Khalsa and Gurpreet2006 our members.

    When das reached Head quaeter of Budhdal.The scribe asked for the caste of three of us.

    Das was last to be asked.Due to Hindu name of Father scribe told Delhi Jathedar who was with us to ask the caste of Das.

    Das derogotry replied that he is a teli.(They wrote in thier book ramdasia).

    anyway during baptism we were told that told otherwise that your mother is Mata Sahib Devan,Father Guru Gobind Singh Ji,birth place Kesgarh Sahib.All are brothers.All have not to talk of por and rich.All will not use further surname but all will have single surname called sodi.

    But when we were taken out.We were told that Harijans and Ramdasias should sit on the one side and Jamindars on other.

    Das was twice asked by the person who was baptising to go and sit with Jamindar.Das told him that das is teli and will sit with Harijans only.One bowl opf left over amrit was perhaps sent to us but not bowl from us went to jamindars.

    Once this was over.We went to take back our belongings.

    Dr Khalsa our moderator protested to Jathedar of Delhi,who assured as once Baba Nidder Singh Ji assured to das that after some time this thing will be put to an end.

    Das any way again asked 2nd in command of Budhadal.about ever can Mazhabis be included with Zamindars.

    He Asked das about 4 Varnas.Das told him.

    Das was shocked when he told that They are Chandals(Mazhabis and Ramdasias) and Guru only united four Varnas so they are out caste.

    at that time das never pondered over such things so it was shock for him.

    A story was also told that Guru allowed out castes to take bath only on one bank of Amritsar Sahib so they are termed Chautha Paur.

    As das has traits of obbesive complusive disroders from that day das was and still is heel bent to overcome this trouble.

    What all happened next and how das partialy succeded for some and more further to voercome this will be told when das gets more time.

    till then das wants more inputs and prayer for the cruasade das is on to end this thing for ever.

    Gurfateh

    Das's meeting with various missionaries,Akali leaders,Panj Piaras of Delhi and Jamdar Sahib of Hajur Sahib and lastly with Rashtriya Sikh Sangat will also be mentioned.

    Most probbaly with day or two as das is busy with some simalr offline work other then dessertation work.
     
    #1 vijaydeep Singh, Jul 31, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 31, 2007
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  3. spnadmin

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    This is really interesting and I hope more people will respond. It merits discussion.
     
  4. dalsingh

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    It was actually sad to read that. Blew my entire conception of Nihungs into the air. The difference between Singhs and Hindus is becoming small.
     
  5. spnadmin

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    Sadly, I have read this about Nihangs before. This thread spurred me on last night, after getting home from work, to do some intensive research on the workings of caste in India today. There is a lot of painful stuff going on out there. A lot from the past hanging onto people. It follows them around the globe, and there is no escape. Although caste "does not exist" officially, it does it work in ways that are subtle. A subtle barrier is just as hard to overcome because in theory they "do not exist"

    Should we start a discussion about this and use some of the materials that I have read to focus the start of a thread? But then -- who is going to take it the wrong way, get worked up, etc.? Make things worse?

    It does not seem to matter if an outcaste is highly educated, from a reasonably established family, generous and kind, concerned about humanity, a hard worker, a devout believer -- you still can't drink from the same cup, sit in the same part of the room (in real time and in metaphor). I understand why these things persist. But have a tolerant attitude? ......No. Vijaydeep did a good thing here by bringing it to light.
     
  6. drkhalsa

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    I would just add something thing

    Just like Dalsingh and aad0002

    Thjis experience itself gave me too many sleepless nights as it is not expected thinmg that you might expect to happen

    In my experience It was just like shock and going numb type of feeling as I always thought Nihungs to beetr off when it comes to practice religion in its original form but In this world you never know whats going to happen next!

    Anyways among Sikh institutes CAste problem is limited to very few peoples and I think Nihungs now are on the top of the list as fore runner or may be champion of this nonesense




    Jatinder Singh
     
  7. vijaydeep Singh

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    Gurfateh

    By mercy of Akal das is hell bent of finish this thing off.

    anyway as we move firther das came accross how things are done at other places.


    Das with a weak after becoming Nihung went to Gurudwara Sis Ganj Sahib Baptism ceromoony.

    There das saw that people were to so much ritual that das thought that Nihungs thought insulted him but did not make his life so miserable like telling to let kirpan be with das while he took bath.Puting one wet Kachhehra and one dry in one each legs in order to replce after bath.

    Das was told to not to eat meat.Reasons were mnay
    1.Akal Takhat has doubts on it(as if Sikh Rahit Maryada published by it is obsolate).
    2.In shop vender can give you Halal(we could have killed ourselves or eaten pork.

    Das was asked had he underwent baptism beofre das told about weak before from Nihungs and told the Caste System .He was asked did you do any misconduct das said no.Das was told to leave as no need for das's re baptism.

    Das went any over there for let some more freinds and brethern be converted to Gurmat.

    As they were from all lower caste or outcaste.Keeping das in thier place das understood that Baptism as per Delhi SGPC would be a something very unoffordable for poor people as they can not afford such ritualistic code and that also not in Sikh code of contduct.


    Anyway next das went to Sachkhand Hajur Sahib.There when das asked the Jamadar of Takaht Bhai Inder Jeet Singh Ji that is caste is asked here at this Takaht.

    He was Angry with das and told him that how can a Sikh be having a caste(in Bihar Takaht Patna Sahib has one bowl for all,but caste is there and baptism is full of ritualistic life in future,this happened after Britishers placed Nirmala type people in there replacing people like Hajuri Sikhs(whose code is simple and non ritualistics like Nihungs but no caste in them like Kanad,Assami and Northern(From Paonta Sahib to Mashhad in Iran) Sikhs).

    So das was again asked if das has done any misconduct.Das told no but he was told that on each day at 11 o cloack baptism is done.

    Das saw it.It was same as of Nihungs but no one was asked of their caste.Das thought as if that day he has become Nihungs(all dals of Nihungs do issue licnce of membership to anyone baptised from Hajur Sahib).

    Das did not undergo baptism them but he was alloed to see that baptism done in public(non Sikhs are not allowed at that time).

    Das came to know that Christians can undergo baptism there but some reluctance with Muslims but das was able to convince the person he was taliing too after the short time.(Final decision from Jathedar is yet to come bu is more to be in positive direction bit so far no Muslim has been there to ask for baptism,if someone comes then only decision will be taken what das thinks so talk was more in theoratical way).

    Das met DP Singh Ji (supritendant)and we did talk of expanding the mission of Hajur Sahib in other parts of the India. Locals were more at per with das as they looked very much like das as Bihari and Deccanis are both dark skinned Sikhs.Das also knew Deccani Urdu and Telgu and was at home with Marathas.
    das also saw Farsi speaking Sikhs there.House of Tenth Master is going to have many nationaies intothem.

    Second visit there, was a success.

    Then what happened with Das's meeting with Sikh Missioarnies and how they motivatred das and how das with devotioan and holy text was able to move a bit of rigid mind of Nihungs will be posted soon along with present status at Budhadal.
     
  8. spnadmin

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    Vijaydeep ji

    This thread has been really interesting. And you have made it interesting with your story. Amrit is a valuable topic to discuss. Non-sikhs and newbies have many questions. There is a link on YouTube showing an amrit ceremony in Espanola, New Mexico.

    Amrit Ceremony - a photoset on Flickr

    You described several different siutations in India. Perhaps some will find the Western Khalsa version of interest too.
     
  9. Huck_Finn

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    its education my dear!!!

    more you have dumb nitwits running amok and pulling strings of masses, we will only see such incidents

    where are the learned people???
     
  10. drkhalsa

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    Recent Update on the topic !

    As information provided by Vijaydeep Singh


    The new Head of Nihang Jatha Buddha Dal Jathedar Balbir Singh has conducted Joint ceremony for all the people that is Ignoring the caste they use to do in past , at Chamkaur Sahib at eve of Dushehra Festival

    It s important to note here that Balbir Singh Himself belong to Lower caste anf for this reason his opponents of higher caste has alreday mudered four of his kin and noe they openely declare that they want to Kill Balbir Singh as they cant Tolerate a Lower Caste JAthedar to lead Nihang Jatha Buddha Dal
     
  11. Archived_Member1

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    don't nihungs also do "kirpan da amrit" for women... giving amrit with only one bani and one gursikh administering it, rather than the traditional five banis and panj piyare the men get?
     
  12. vijaydeep Singh

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    Gurfateh
    A lady who is baptised(By Khande Di Pahul) by 5 Piaras any or all of them could be lady can get licence of Budha Dal ie could be accepted into Budha Dal as one of thier equal member.

    So even if they do not as yet got reformed(which hopes will be done under the able Jathedari of New Jathedar Ji) they do aknowledge lady as Panj Paiara and Amritdhari by Khande Di Pahul as Amritdhari.

    they gave excuse to das about it as from same bowl if husbahnd and wife drink then they will become Brother and sister.(as per Bijai Mukt Sakhi Dasvin,Guru did tell that for him dougheter is same as child and all is form mental motiavtion but in case some one is so much particular then Husband and wife can take baptism at differant time) so this excuse was answered long ago.So like Patna Sahib Hajur Sahib and Budhadal will will make single bowl.

    Das is mooting a proposal for all women Tarna Dal soon.

    But first the upper caste reactionaries, who are after the life of das also for his being from jat father supporting lower caste Jathedar,are to be fixed.

    Strange but true that many so called reformer of upper castes,who try to act a modern in coondeming Tenth Master's Verses are supporitng reactioanaries from upper castes.

    Das was sent to RSS by upper caste lobby to weaken Baba Balbeer Singh Ji(via remote control of BJP-Badal-Baba Balbeer Singh JI),instead they think that das has ditched them.They are right as das has worked wioth dalits in RSS also and is now flooding RSS with Dalits.

    Other group who helped das is Sikh Missiaory Collage.Strange that this collage is also under attack by reactioary forces.Akin to left and congress but in form Guru Granth Sahib Purists.

    This is a transition period.

    Weather or not Das survive but Akal's willing caste will no longer surivive in Budha Dal.Akal bless.:up:
     
  13. vijaydeep Singh

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    Gurfateh

    Das has recently been made aware that Nanak sar of Kaleran and Rumi Sant of Bhuchhon also have caste system the way it was with Nihungs.


    So they are on target.

    Das was told by another Sikh that at moga before baptism if some one could have otuched out caste(2 castes mentioned above) one was told to take bath again(weather out caste was also to be baptised or was baptised).This happened in moga Nanaksar.

    Das was told this by Granthi from Lubana ancesters and he also condemmed such Sants(Lubanas are not treated untouchable but they do oppose caste system tooth and nail).
     
  14. roopsidhu

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    its a bitter truth that unfortunatly the caste system has always existed, is existing and will exist in sikhism. We always preach against it but practise it. We always condemn it but live it.
    This is very serious problem and must be addressed.
     

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