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Can we ever achieve predictability?

Discussion in 'Interfaith Dialogues' started by thecoopes, Aug 9, 2005.

  1. thecoopes

    thecoopes
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    Dear friends what do you think?

    For this illustration we need to make many assertions. (Everything in the rooms are exactly the same.)

    1. Two pure white rooms of exactly the same dimensions.
    2. Each has a balloon of exactly the same dimensions and in every detail the same.
    3. Each balloon is inflated to exactly the same pressure and filled with exactly the same amount of red paint that is its self exactly the same in every detail.
    4. Each balloon is suspended on a piece of string that is the same length and in every detail the same, and suspended in the same position.
    5. Each balloon is burst in exactly the same spot at exactly the same time.

    Question? Will the pattern of paint spatter in these identical rooms be exactly the same in every microscopic detail?

    If not why not?
     
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  3. Lee

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    Hello,

    The answer is a resounding no. Although everything may be the same, unless we know for sure the inner workings of 'fluid dynamics' then it is really impossible to say. However it is true that at every moment and in every place from a purly scientific view, things are always changing.

    An example, Unless the two identical rooms occupy the same place in space/time(impossible) then at the very least the amount of, rate of, and differant types of cosmic radiation hitting and passing throught those rooms and all within are going to be very differant. That is one reason why I feel justified in saying no.

    Another, fluctuations in gravity, another air resistance/friction, another, what is happing on a quantum scale, all of this without even taking into account how Gods presance in all things may or may not effect things.

    It may be an iteresting experiment though, and the very little I do know abut fluid dynamics, leads me to see that the motion of fluid is depentent on any number of influences, any numbre of which we have little or no control over.

    Cheers,

    Lee.
     
  4. thecoopes

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    Hi Lee, what if everything was the same, i.e. time and space etc.
    I personally don't think the two events would create identical patterns ever.
    This then must beg the question why? I though haven't got a clue.

    And if in this nothing can be predictable then how can we answer the great metaphysical questions????

    Best wishes:roll:

    John
     
  5. GushK

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    If we're talking about the exact same time/space then I'm thinking that it would HAVE to exactly the same...
    otherwise, theoetically that means, if you could go back in time and witness the balloon being burst over and over (without affecting the situation yourself) the burst would be different every single time...

    goin really scientific, the only way I can see to explain same space/time and different patterns would be the theory of parallel universes, but this inherently implies differences (however subtle) between each situation.
     
  6. Lee

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    Hey John,

    I understand what your saying, I don't nesacirly agree though that nothing can be predictable. I was talking just the other day to someone somewhere about chaos, and how even chaos has to follow it's own set of rules. I gave as an example weather patterns. Which on the surface are rather chaotic in nature, but we know it is all about what happens in the upper atmosphre, and how hot or cold the sea is, and myriad other things.

    I believe rather it is our lack of knowledge of these rules that prompts people to think of predictivness. Our lack of understanding of the big picture, and the conectivness of things.

    Heh as for answering the big metaphysical questions, again, I belive that we need to look to the relevant areas of knowledge to answer these questions.

    The areas I mean are religion, and the arts. It is my belife that religoin and science are not as many people belive mutuly incombatibe, but rather two sides of the same coin.
    I mean of course that scince can asnwer the how, but religion can answer the why. As to the arts, what do you think your self? Do you think as I do that when it comes to artistic persuits it works on a differant level of our brains?

    For example, in the written art form, it is easyer to get a message across using sybolisim, similies, metaphor etc.. than it is to just say what you mean. When you listen to a piece of music, do you feel what everybody else feels, or is your experiance of it touched by your own perceptions, and life experiances? When you view a picture, or watch a film, would you say that what you understand about it or get out of it is the same for everybody else?

    So to summerise, if we want answers to the metaphysical questions, we have to apply a differant area of thought than pure logical thought.

    Cheers,

    Lee.
     
  7. thecoopes

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    Dear Lee and Gushk, thanks for taking the time to reply, the more I contemplate this subject the blacker my thoughts become. You perhaps can shine some light into this blackness.

    I feel everything around us is just random chance that can never repeat itself, for example back to our pot of paint and a firecracker. If we were to throw a firecracker in a paint pot the resulting random pattern could never be repeated by the same manner, we may think wow look at that pattern, but it is quite simply random. So to with our existence, you and I sitting at this moment in time with the rest of humanity around us could never be repeated.
    For example the average male produces billions of sperm and the female is thought to have around 300,000 eggs at puberty, just think of the astronomical variations possible from just those two people with egg sperm combinations! Then look at the same thing in the light of mans existence on earth and the number of people to multiply those variations by!!!!!!!!!

    It appears to me random and totally unpredictable events are shaping our lives with no purpose, for instance take any event in history and change the outcome, like musical chairs all the world players would change, if those that died in history had been those that lived and visa versa, What then?

    I asked this question some time ago, I would like to get someone else’s view as to whether I’m cracking up?

    If we assume that as the second hand sweeps around the clock face, everything in front of the hand is the future and everything behind the hand is the past so that only that which is at the tip is the present, then how big is the present?

    As we can divide time in to nanoseconds so that a literal second becomes equivalent to around 30years, then the principle of the second hand remains the same and our present moment in time is just 1 nanosecond, which is as near to nothing as possible, divide this almost nothing by infinity. Then do we exist?

    Is it all just meaningless random chances in a non-existing blip? :8-:)
     
  8. Lee

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    Hey Johh,

    I'm going to take your points one at a time, and lets see whether we see light or dark huh!

    John Said:

    <<I feel everything around us is just random chance that can never repeat itself, for example back to our pot of paint and a firecracker. If we were to throw a firecracker in a paint pot the resulting random pattern could never be repeated by the same manner, we may think wow look at that pattern, but it is quite simply random.>>

    It only seems random beacuse as I have said, we are not in posetion of all of the facts. Remember when you where a child, and all of the knowledge you had then? More importantly all of the extra knowledge you have now.
    I have two children aged 8 and 11, when I talk to them I know no matter how much they ask there are things that I cannot explain to them yet, they do not yet have the capacity to understand certian things. This is purley because their brains are not yet fully functional.

    Heh not that I'm saying that yours isn't also, but only that you and I and the rest of us, cannot know everything. Tyr talking to somebody you know is very knowledgable about something you know nothing about, and see how much you can actualy comprehend. This is beacuse until you are taught the fundementals, or basics of this knowledge your capacity to understand is limited.

    John said:

    <<For example the average male produces billions of sperm and the female is thought to have around 300,000 eggs at puberty, just think of the astronomical variations possible from just those two people with egg sperm combinations! Then look at the same thing in the light of mans existence on earth and the number of people to multiply those variations by!!!!!!!!!>>

    It puzzles me a bit John how you see this as random? Do we not have a say in who we marry, how many children we have, what vocation we take, where we live? The whole realm of biology also is not random, there are difinitive rules that govern the workings of the body. Rather than see randomness in all of this I can see the masterplan of a master builder.

    John said;

    <<It appears to me random and totally unpredictable events are shaping our lives with no purpose, for instance take any event in history and change the outcome, like musical chairs all the world players would change, if those that died in history had been those that lived and visa versa, What then?>>

    Heh this is one of those question that I just can't answer. However if say Hitler won the war, and we where all German citizens, then by now would the cruelty of the 3rd riech still be prevalant, or would human morality forced a change? I think the latter is more probable. It then becomes a question of ethics.

    John said:

    <<I asked this question some time ago, I would like to get someone else’s view as to whether I’m cracking up?>>

    Heh John, I don't think you have to worry overmuch on that score, I know a lot of people who umm err lets say have mental health issues. In my experiance, it is the ones who are not worried, or who do not question their sanity that are the greatest at risk.

    I myself have undergone, and still do periods of intense mental anguish and headfuckedness(for want of a more apt phrase) this is quite normal, it may indicate some stress or deppression, but it also efflicts those of us that are want to think deeply on certian issuse. As I have already said, the trick to combat this is to not take to much notice of logical thought process, for that way lies contridiction upon condtridiction. Heh yeah I know it sounds quite mad to suggest to combat madness one should not think logicaly, but *shrug* it does work.

    John said:

    <<If we assume that as the second hand sweeps around the clock face, everything in front of the hand is the future and everything behind the hand is the past so that only that which is at the tip is the present, then how big is the present?

    As we can divide time in to nanoseconds so that a literal second becomes equivalent to around 30years, then the principle of the second hand remains the same and our present moment in time is just 1 nanosecond, which is as near to nothing as possible, divide this almost nothing by infinity. Then do we exist?

    Is it all just meaningless random chances in a non-existing blip?>>

    Yeah this is a perfect way to test my point about logical thought. You say this beacuse logicaly this is what seems to be true, I'll not deny that.

    However think of it in this way instead and see where it leads you:

    Time can be divided into the past the present and the future, but by it's very nature time is an ever changing force. What was just then, is not the same as...NOW! and what was in the future is.. NOW! the present.

    So in human terms what is time to us, what does it mean? Not a lot as it turns out, it is nowt more than another measurement. Instead of lenght, or mass, or whatever it measures decay.

    Time is the measurment of the rate of decay of physical matter and energy, but it is only valid for phyiscal things. Do you belive in spirit? What is spirit? How can we measure it, it is not energy, it is not matter, does it reside in our human bodies, some would call the soul by the name spirit Heh myself amongst them.

    So of course yes spirit also resides in the human body, but if spirit cannot be touched by time, then what is time to us? In a very real sense it is nothing. You are correct when you ask do we really exsist. Yeah we do, but this exsistance, the one where I can phyiscal type these words, and you can phyiscaly read them, is not the reality of the creation, only that which is outside of time is real, because it cannot decay, so never dies.

    Heh now here is the clever bit John.

    ik-oNkaar sat naam kartaa purakh nirbha-o nirvair akaal moorat ajoonee saibhaN gur parsaad.


    One Universal Creator God. The Name Is Truth. Creative Being Personified. No Fear. No Hatred. Image Of The Undying, Beyond Birth, Self-Existent. By Guru's Grace



    jap.


    Chant And Meditate:


    aad sach jugaad sach.


    True In The Primal Beginning. True Throughout The Ages.


    hai bhee sach naanak hosee bhee sach.


    True Here And Now. O Nanak, Forever And Ever True.


    So we can see that the only truth, and therefore the only thing we have to ever worry about is God.


    Anyhoo John I hope this helps.

    Cheers,

    Lee.



     
  9. drkhalsa

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    Dear John
    I can say this thing other way around
    when you tals about hand of clock you are assuming or conceptualising that every thing in front of it is future and every thing at back of it is past there is nothing real in it it is just the concept of human mind
    while practically and actually onlyy the present exist in reality and past and future is jsut concept our mind has devised to keep track of thing that we want to remember and plan as such future and past never eisted only and only present moment exist and it is always present it never passes

    well it may seems wierd to you but this is how i think about time actually it is tol of mind and does not exist .may be i am finding it difficult to explain


    Jatinder Singh
     
  10. thecoopes

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    Dear friends, you are all helping me so much.

    I remember hearing a question many years ago about time it goes like this.

    “Do things wear out because time exists?
    Or does time exist because things wear out?”

    They claimed it was the latter, as time is only a perception.

    I have a great difficulty in seeing time as anything other than linear.


    Regards

    John
     
  11. Lee

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    Hey John,

    I'd just like to point out that in the scientific realms, time and space is not divided, infact many would call it by the moniker space time.

    Thinking about it realy all things phyical(made of matter) and this includes enegies such as eletromagnetic, gravity, and the strong and weak nuclear energies, are all under the rules of time. As I have said before it is but a measure of decay in phyiscal things.

    So in answer to the question that you once heard I would claim that it is the former. Time and space are conected, are we going to agree that space is a perception?

    I would concede that how we view time may not be wholely correct, but then I am an advocate of the idea that the way in which we percive our phyisical World could also not be the correct one(based as it is on our 5 senses).

    So in essance you are right, the function of time(as we presantly understand it) is linear, heh but remember the creator is outside of time.

    Cheers,

    Lee.
     
  12. GushK

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    In relation to the above post, I just had a thought....

    Since God, and presumably our souls exist outside of time, who's to say that our past lives are in, what we consider as, the past.

    Could we come back at any point along the space-time continuum?
     
  13. Lee

    Lee
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    Umm that is a very interesting idea, and would certianly help to clear up the little niggle of new births vs number of souls.

    Heh think of that, I die not realiseing Guru Ji this time around, so I actualy come back 100 years ago?

    Ahh just one more way in which we cannot truely understand God unless we become Gurmuhk.

    Cheers,

    Lee.
     
  14. Hukum Kaur

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    A fractile is a never ending spiral of the same repeated patern. People can program them on computers as an art form. What if a microscopic part of one of the repeted paterns was somehow changed. Then the next one would be repeating the change, and so forth. The change could increase theirfore changing the fractile entirely and spinning the pattern out of control...and their is your two ballons of paint. Microscopic differences we can not see nor conceiv alter the end result= the spiral big enough to see. We can not see the first peace of the fractile. Any thing is possible, faith the size of a mustard seed can move mountains.
    I remeber as a child explaining to my mom that the two copies of the same picture were not THE SAME PICTURE, because one was in my left hand and the other was in my right.
    I also remember not being aible to grasp the concept of a pound of feathers being the same weight as a pound of bricks...A brick is heavyer than a feather, was all I could say, as I imagined a huge bag of each on two scales.
    Our minds are the fractles and their will always be a deeper and deeper layer for us to understand...I never think I am going crazy when I dive too deep for my perception, however, insanity is the attempt to understand His Greatness.
     

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