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Can Guru Sahib change our 'bhaag' (destiny/fortune) or we have to live with it ? is it fixed

Discussion in 'Sikh Sikhi Sikhism' started by Seeker2013, Oct 8, 2015.

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  1. Seeker2013

    Seeker2013 India
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    I was seeking some solution for a personal life issue from Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji and the shabad that came had the line

    ਸੋਰਠਿ ਮਹਲਾ ੩ ॥
    सोरठि महला ३ ॥
    Soraṯẖ mėhlā 3.
    Sorat'h, Third Mehl:

    ਸੋ ਸਿਖੁ ਸਖਾ ਬੰਧਪੁ ਹੈ ਭਾਈ ਜਿ ਗੁਰ ਕੇ ਭਾਣੇ ਵਿਚਿ ਆਵੈ ॥
    सो सिखु सखा बंधपु है भाई जि गुर के भाणे विचि आवै ॥
    So sikẖ sakẖā banḏẖap hai bẖā▫ī jė gur ke bẖāṇe vicẖ āvai.
    He alone is a Sikh, a friend, a relative and a sibling, who walks in the Way of the Guru's Will.

    ਆਪਣੈ ਭਾਣੈ ਜੋ ਚਲੈ ਭਾਈ ਵਿਛੁੜਿ ਚੋਟਾ ਖਾਵੈ ॥
    आपणै भाणै जो चलै भाई विछुड़ि चोटा खावै ॥
    Āpṇai bẖāṇai jo cẖalai bẖā▫ī vicẖẖuṛ cẖotā kẖāvai.
    One who walks according to his own will, O Siblings of Destiny, suffers separation from the Lord, and shall be punished.

    ਬਿਨੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਸੁਖੁ ਕਦੇ ਨ ਪਾਵੈ ਭਾਈ ਫਿਰਿ ਫਿਰਿ ਪਛੋਤਾਵੈ ॥੧॥
    बिनु सतिगुर सुखु कदे न पावै भाई फिरि फिरि पछोतावै ॥१॥
    Bin saṯgur sukẖ kaḏe na pāvai bẖā▫ī fir fir pacẖẖoṯāvai. ||1||
    Without the True Guru, peace is never obtained, O Siblings of Destiny; again and again, he regrets and repents. ||1||

    ਹਰਿ ਕੇ ਦਾਸ ਸੁਹੇਲੇ ਭਾਈ ॥
    हरि के दास सुहेले भाई ॥
    Har ke ḏās suhele bẖā▫ī.
    The Lord's slaves are happy, O Siblings of Destiny.

    ਜਨਮ ਜਨਮ ਕੇ ਕਿਲਬਿਖ ਦੁਖ ਕਾਟੇ ਆਪੇ ਮੇਲਿ ਮਿਲਾਈ ॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
    जनम जनम के किलबिख दुख काटे आपे मेलि मिलाई ॥ रहाउ ॥
    Janam janam ke kilbikẖ ḏukẖ kāte āpe mel milāī. Rahāo.
    The sins and sorrows of countless lifetimes are eradicated; the Lord Himself unites them in His Union. ||Pause||

    ਇਹੁ ਕੁਟੰਬੁ ਸਭੁ ਜੀਅ ਕੇ ਬੰਧਨ ਭਾਈ ਭਰਮਿ ਭੁਲਾ ਸੈਂਸਾਰਾ ॥
    इहु कुट्मबु सभु जीअ के बंधन भाई भरमि भुला सैंसारा ॥
    Ih kutamb sabẖ jīa ke banḏẖan bẖāī bẖaram bẖulā saiʼnsārā.
    All of these relatives are like chains upon the soul, O Siblings of Destiny; the world is deluded by doubt.

    ਬਿਨੁ ਗੁਰ ਬੰਧਨ ਟੂਟਹਿ ਨਾਹੀ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਮੋਖ ਦੁਆਰਾ ॥
    बिनु गुर बंधन टूटहि नाही गुरमुखि मोख दुआरा ॥
    Bin gur banḏẖan tūtėh nāhī gurmukẖ mokẖ ḏuārā.
    Without the Guru, the chains cannot be broken; the Gurmukhs find the door of salvation.

    ਕਰਮ ਕਰਹਿ ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦੁ ਨ ਪਛਾਣਹਿ ਮਰਿ ਜਨਮਹਿ ਵਾਰੋ ਵਾਰਾ ॥੨॥
    करम करहि गुर सबदु न पछाणहि मरि जनमहि वारो वारा ॥२॥
    Karam karahi gur sabaḏ na pacẖẖāṇėh mar janmėh vāro vārā. ||2||
    One who performs rituals without realizing the Word of the Guru's Shabad, shall die and be reborn, again and again. ||2||

    ਹਉ ਮੇਰਾ ਜਗੁ ਪਲਚਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਭਾਈ ਕੋਇ ਨ ਕਿਸ ਹੀ ਕੇਰਾ ॥
    हउ मेरा जगु पलचि रहिआ भाई कोइ न किस ही केरा ॥
    Ha▫o merā jag palacẖ rahiā bẖāī koe na kis hī kerā.
    The world is entangled in egotism and possessiveness, O Siblings of Destiny, but no one belongs to anyone else.

    ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਮਹਲੁ ਪਾਇਨਿ ਗੁਣ ਗਾਵਨਿ ਨਿਜ ਘਰਿ ਹੋਇ ਬਸੇਰਾ ॥
    गुरमुखि महलु पाइनि गुण गावनि निज घरि होइ बसेरा ॥
    Gurmukẖ mahal pāin guṇ gāvan nij gẖar hoe baserā.
    The Gurmukhs attain the Mansion of the Lord's Presence, singing the Glories of the Lord; they dwell in the home of their own inner being.

    ਐਥੈ ਬੂਝੈ ਸੁ ਆਪੁ ਪਛਾਣੈ ਹਰਿ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਹੈ ਤਿਸੁ ਕੇਰਾ ॥੩॥
    ऐथै बूझै सु आपु पछाणै हरि प्रभु है तिसु केरा ॥३॥
    Aithai būjẖai so āp pacẖẖāṇai har parabẖ hai ṯis kerā. ||3||
    One who understands here, realizes himself; the Lord God belongs to him. ||3||

    ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਸਦਾ ਦਇਆਲੁ ਹੈ ਭਾਈ ਵਿਣੁ ਭਾਗਾ ਕਿਆ ਪਾਈਐ ॥
    सतिगुरू सदा दइआलु है भाई विणु भागा किआ पाईऐ ॥
    Saṯgurū saḏā ḏaiāl hai bẖāī viṇ bẖāgā kiā pāīai.
    The True Guru is forever merciful, O Siblings of Destiny; without good destiny, what can anyone obtain?


    ਏਕ ਨਦਰਿ ਕਰਿ ਵੇਖੈ ਸਭ ਊਪਰਿ ਜੇਹਾ ਭਾਉ ਤੇਹਾ ਫਲੁ ਪਾਈਐ ॥
    एक नदरि करि वेखै सभ ऊपरि जेहा भाउ तेहा फलु पाईऐ ॥
    Ėk naḏar kar vekẖai sabẖ ūpar jehā bẖāo ṯehā fal pāīai.
    He looks alike upon all with His Glance of Grace, but people receive the fruits of their rewards according to their love for the Lord.

    ਨਾਨਕ ਨਾਮੁ ਵਸੈ ਮਨ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਵਿਚਹੁ ਆਪੁ ਗਵਾਈਐ ॥੪॥੬॥
    नानक नामु वसै मन अंतरि विचहु आपु गवाईऐ ॥४॥६॥
    Nānak nām vasai man anṯar vicẖahu āp gavāīai. ||4||6||
    O Nanak, when the Naam, the Name of the Lord, comes to dwell within the mind, then self-conceit is eradicated from within. ||4||6||

    http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=KeertanPage&K=602&L=5&id=26291

    So can guru change ਭਾਗ / destiny ? or is it something that even guru can't / won't change ?
    is it something that we just have to live with ? is "bhaag" something fixed that we just have to live with ?
     
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  3. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
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    It all depends on your interpretation of Sikhism, in my view, this is written to read in its entirety, and then a gist or message appears, again from the entirety. Upon reading, my understanding is that the whole Shabad is about rejecting the rituals, belief in the afterlife and multiple lives, and to find happiness living the way of the true person, not to do such in view of a reward, but simply as it is the correct and right thing to do.

    The line you have outlined can be taken in many ways, according to http://shabdkosh.com

    ਭਾਗ can mean any of the following.
    1. part (m)
    2. fortune (m)
    3. luck (m)
    4. destiny (m)
    5. fate (m)
    6. participation (m)
    7. contribution (m)
    8. share (m)
    9. division (m)
    10. segment (m)
    11. fraction (m)
    12. portion (m)
    13. section (m)
    14. Division
    It is also interesting to note the word destiny is used twice in the translation, but ਭਾਗ appears only the once.

    As a fan of the pragmatic, No. 7 would probably be my choice, if we had a choice, which I do think we have.
     
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  4. chazSingh

    chazSingh Ireland
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    Do your Simran daily, Seva and earn truthfully and honestly.... and share...

    and anything is possible...

    but you have to understand why you are doing it...is it because you want to realize the truth behind life? if you do...Waheguru will assist and make it happen....this is bagti.

    but nonetheless....start anyway...
    when i first started my Simran seriously....the biggest reason was i had some Dukh in my life that was emotionally to overwhelming...
    where others may have imploded....i took to Guru Ji's shelter...

    my intention may have been initially for God to resolve my pain....but over time...the intention evolved into wanting to know the truth of life...the truth of me...the truth of everything...

    i guess thats why Guru ji says pain is the cure...dukh daru
     
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  5. Seeker2013

    Seeker2013 India
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    I want to talk to Guru Gobind Singh who was called "wah pragteyo mard agamda variam akela, wah wah gobind singh aape gur chela"
    I want to ask him personally whether you , O macho guru has the power and your amrit has the power to convert a gay man like me to a full macho man who is respected in society and who can live a normal grihast jeevan like every1 else

    I want to ask him "I have heard lots of praises about your amrit and how it can revive the dead. but is your amrit potent enough to turn me into what i want to become ?"
    I want to ask guru gobind singh ji but I know he's still there in guru granth sahib
    I will ask him ! with the faith that he will answer
     
  6. Seeker2013

    Seeker2013 India
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    sounds like story of bhagat dhroo .
     
  7. japjisahib04

    japjisahib04 Kuwait
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    No! Had it been so guru sahib wouldn't have said, 'ਹਰਿ ਰੰਗੀ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਪਾਇਆ ਹਰਿ ਗੋਵਿੰਦ ਹਰਿ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕੇਰਾ ॥ ਹਰਿ ਹਿਰਦੈ ਮਨਿ ਤਨਿ ਮੀਠਾ ਲਾਗਾ ਮੁਖਿ ਮਸਤਕਿ ਭਾਗੁ ਚੰਗੇਰਾ ॥੨॥ once I follow His traits I merge with my creator and as such make my life meaningful, thus it dismisses the belief of fixed destination due to previous life karma. Gurbani clearly says, 'ਸਭਨਾ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਵੁੜੀ ਕਲਾਮ ॥ everyone's destiny is written by one law and i.e. laws of nature and whosoever understand this ਏਹੁ ਲੇਖਾ ਲਿਖਿ ਜਾਣੈ ਕੋਇ ॥ his 'ਲੇਖਾ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਕੇਤਾ ਹੋਇ ॥ thought process of deficiencies culminates to virtues.
     
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  8. Ishna

    Ishna
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    The very next line in the shabad answers your question.

    ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਸਦਾ ਦਇਆਲੁ ਹੈ ਭਾਈ ਵਿਣੁ ਭਾਗਾ ਕਿਆ ਪਾਈਐ ॥
    सतिगुरू सदा दइआलु है भाई विणु भागा किआ पाईऐ ॥
    Saṯgurū saḏā ḏaiāl hai bẖāī viṇ bẖāgā kiā pāīai.
    The True Guru is forever merciful, O Siblings of Destiny; without good destiny, what can anyone obtain?

    ਏਕ ਨਦਰਿ ਕਰਿ ਵੇਖੈ ਸਭ ਊਪਰਿ ਜੇਹਾ ਭਾਉ ਤੇਹਾ ਫਲੁ ਪਾਈਐ ॥
    एक नदरि करि वेखै सभ ऊपरि जेहा भाउ तेहा फलु पाईऐ ॥
    Ėk naḏar kar vekẖai sabẖ ūpar jehā bẖāo ṯehā fal pāīai.
    He looks alike upon all with His Glance of Grace, but people receive the fruits of their rewards according to their love for the Lord.


    ਨਾਨਕ ਨਾਮੁ ਵਸੈ ਮਨ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਵਿਚਹੁ ਆਪੁ ਗਵਾਈਐ ॥੪॥੬॥
    नानक नामु वसै मन अंतरि विचहु आपु गवाईऐ ॥४॥६॥
    Nānak nām vasai man anṯar vicẖahu āp gavāīai. ||4||6||
    O Nanak, when the Naam, the Name of the Lord, comes to dwell within the mind, then self-conceit is eradicated from within. ||4||6||​
     
  9. Ishna

    Ishna
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    Cool observation, bhaji.

    "Destiny" is used twice in the translation because "ਭਾਈ" is usually translated as "siblings of destiny", although the dictionary says it means "brother".

    The shabad seems to be saying that if you continue to live without love for Ik Onkar, then that has only one outcome. But if you live with love for Ik Onkar, the outcome will be different.

    Like if you eat an unhealthy diet, then your destiny is to get fat. But if you eat sensibly, then you are more likely to be healthy.
     
  10. Shaheen

    Shaheen
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    So, nature controls a fixed (ie written) destiny not the 'True Guru'?
     
  11. japjisahib04

    japjisahib04 Kuwait
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    Gurmat philosophy is, 'ਜਿਤੁ ਦਿਹਾੜੈ ਧਨ ਵਰੀ ਸਾਹੇ ਲਏ ਲਿਖਾਇ ॥ the day manh (dhan) surrenders to 'vari' the robe of common divine intellect, my destiny is written - i.e. the initiation day of my life for a meaningful start and 'ਮਲਕੁ ਜਿ ਕੰਨੀ ਸੁਣੀਦਾ ਮੁਹੁ ਦੇਖਾਲੇ ਆਇ ॥ ਜਿੰਦੁ ਨਿਮਾਣੀ ਕਢੀਐ ਹਡਾ ਕੂ ਕੜਕਾਇ ॥ the most gracious God (bride)which I was hearing have ‘muh daikhalai’ the raidiant day has come and dropped destructive thought ever since I have wear the robe of divine intellect. And ਜਿੰਦੁ ਨਿਮਾਣੀ ਕਢੀਐ after wearing robe of divine wisdom my egoistic ਜਿੰਦੁ is now turned ਨਿਮਾਣੀ humble. And ਹਡਾ ਕੂ ਕੜਕਾਇ - the deep rooted biased mind set (within my bone) is now elevated. I got acquintance with God and have merged with Him .SGGS.1377
     
    #10 japjisahib04, Oct 12, 2015
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2015
  12. Shaheen

    Shaheen
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    So, everything is God or part of God according to SGGS?
     
  13. japjisahib04

    japjisahib04 Kuwait
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    Except the manh i.e. why gurbani question the ritual of offerings of sacrifice of animal to God as all is Him
     

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