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Being Naamdhari is Sikhi

Discussion in 'Interfaith Dialogues' started by Josh martin, Jul 8, 2009.

  1. Josh martin

    Josh martin
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    My rules are simple: One post at a time to keep 1v1 debate/talk instead of 10 different discussions in all different directions. If will attempt to each question. If someone already posted before you, wait for me to reply so we stay on the same boat(repeating wut I said above).

    Premises is simple enough "Being naamdhari is sikhi" try to be in ballpark of this discussion. Idea is to provide better understanding of our own religion culture for ones who are interested. All questions are welcome. :happy:

    Folllowing is quote from sikh namdhari.

    Being Naamdhari is Sikhi. I am using his quote instead of my own text for a reason. :cool:

    Fellow Sikh Brothers and Sisters,

    Sat-Sri Akaal

    I have refrained from contributing my humble opinions on this site for a good few months after members started to get abusive..
    Under such circumstances it begins to get difficult to retain ones composure and answer with objectivity.

    From the comments one reads on these forums it becomes clear that most, if not all, members are prejudiced against Namdhari Sikhs. There are so many lies written about Namdharis that one wonders at the capacity of ignorance and hatred in people who profess themselves to be 'Sikhs' (seekers of God?).

    I will try to counter some of the myths being spread about Namdharis. It is up to the individual to do their own research to discover what is true and what isn't before launching into hate filled assaults.

    Firstly, let's get one fact straight:

    SIKHI and SIKHISM are distinctly different.

    Gurus and Sikhs existed long before the coming of Satguru Nanak Devji.
    Satguru Nanak Devji did not create a seperate religion (ism). His mission was to rid us of the impurities of our thoughts and to sit together as brothers before each other and before our Creator.

    He being the Enlightened Soul, Superior Being, was capable through His words and Deeds to deliver that message to those who were ready to recieve it, no matter what their previous religious convictions. Those who wanted to accept His message revered Him as their Guru. The message was not new; only it needed renewing. Like today, men were at each others throats, trying to impose their own doctrines on those whose were different to their own.
    If the weaker ones resisted they were put to the sword. Is that the hidden message I hear on these forums, I wonder?

    Satguru is a title given to God Personality. (SARGUN)

    Akal Purakh permeates the Universe as NIRGUN.

    When NIRGUN chooses to become SARGUN: SATGUR walks this planet and all others to reveal His existance to His Creation.

    Thus, according to the verses of Aad and Dasam Gurus' Granth Sahibs, the Formless (who is incomprehensible to mankind) takes the form of Man.

    How we interpret the Holy scriptures seems to me to be dependant on which denomination we belong to! Most of the subscribers to these websites belong to the section of Sikhs who would rather wash over the Shabads that describe God thus. Nearly all would not even read the Dasam Granth wherein Satguru Gobind Singhji narrates the deeds of the various Avtaars of Akaal Purakh. Modern day 'Sikhism' has evolved to encompass western thought and doctrine which is repulsed by the very idea of one individual having supernatural powers, unless, of course, he/she happens to be a Superhero from Marvel.

    I have yet to understand where in the vastness of Sikh history the first 10 Satgurus ordained their followers to stop regarding Them as Satguru and follow the 'Shabad Guru'. Everyone who wants to tell me about 'Shabad Guru' points to the now famous verse in Sidh Gost:
    'Sabad Guru, Surat Dhun Chela..'.

    THE MEANING OF THIS LINE IS NOT WHAT IT IS MADE OUT TO BE.
    WITHIN ALL OF THE GURBANI THE TWO WORDS SHABAD AND GURU APPEAR IN THE CONTEXT OF 'SABAD GURU KA', SABAD GUR, GUR SABAD OR GURMANTR. NOWHERE CAN ITS MEANING BE TAKEN TO MEAN THAT THE SABAD IS GURU.

    THE CONTEXT IS ALWAYS: GURU'S SHABAD.

    SATGURUJI HAVE FROM TIME TO TIME USED POETIC LICENCE TO OMIT OR ADD WORDS.

    I ask you this: IF GURU NANAKDEVJI'S OBJECTIVE WAS TO ENJOIN HIS FOLLOWERS TO 'SHABAD GURU' WHY OH WHY DID HE CONTINUE THE LINEAGE OF HUMAN GURUS WITH GURU ANGAD DEVJI? Quotes only from the Gurbani, please.

    WHY DO THE BHATS STATE CATEGORICALLY WITHIN THE GURBANI THAT IT IS THIS LINEAGE OF HUMAN GURUS, AS ORDAINED BY: ".. AADH PURAKH.." THAT WILL SEE OUT THIS AGE OF KALYUG? see: Sveyae Mahalae Pehilae Ke [pages 1389-90]

    WHEN DID THE HOLY VERSES OF THE GURBANI (WHICH IS ETERNAL TRUTH) BECOME WRONG AND THE MODERN CONCEPT OF GURU BECOME TRUE?


    NAMDHARI Sikhs, AS COMMANDED BY THEIR SATGURU BELIEVE IN HIM AS DESCRIBED BY ALL THE VERSES IN AADH AND DASAM GURUJIS' GRANTH SAHIBS.

    THERE ARE NO WRITTEN COMMANDS BY ANY OF OUR GURUS ANYWHERE WHERE THEY COMMAND THEIR Sikhs TO ABSTAIN FROM FOLLOWING A HUMAN GURU OR THAT THEY WERE GOING TO DISCONTINUE THE LINEAGE OF HUMAN GURUS.

    NAMDHARIS DO NOT BELIEVE ANY WRITINGS BY ORDINARY HUMANS AS GURUS' COMMAND. THEY ONLY BELIEVE IN THE WRITINGS OF OUR TRUE GURUS STARTING FROM SATGURU Nanak DEVJI.

    All of the evidence presented to verify that Guru Gobind Singhji eliminated the lineage of Human Gurus is written by ordinary men.

    The Holy Granths say different. Guru Gobind Singhji in any of His own writings does not propogate the idea of Panth guru or Granth Guru. Hence why champions of this idea would not want you to read His writings in the Dasam Granth.

    In His opening verse of Chaubis Avtaar He writes:

    '...Jab, Jab hott arist apaara, tab, tab Dhe dharat Avtaara...'

    This is Guru Gobind Singhji's teaching of God's doctrine. Modern champions of the same Guruji would tell us that God does not take Avtaars!

    They will mistakenly repeat Gurujis earlier verses in which He extols the virtues of the Nirgun form of God. So what do our champs do? They ignore the Sargun teachings and adopt the Nirgun. Question their motives for doing so.

    Nirgun is unobtainable; Sargun is required for Humans to become one with Nirgun. That is why in the Mool Manthr, after singing the euologies of Nirgun, Satgur Nanak Deviji ends with ..'Gur Parsad'. Such a God is attained through the Grace of His own manifestation as Guru. A Guru is proactive. A Guru will correct a misdeed. A Guru will hold your hand when you are unstable. Not, hypothetically by us concoting an idea or image in our minds, but in real time and life as a living, breathing entity. AND MOST IMPORTANT OF ALL:
    Source:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=14966 (Being Naamdhari is Sikhi)

    A SATGUR ADMINISTERS THE Amrit: NAAM

    IF YOU RECIEVE NAAM FROM SOMEONE WHO WEARS THE 5 SHASTER DURING AN Amrit SANCHAR BUT HAS NO CONNECTION WITH HIS CREATOR OUTSIDE OF THE GURDWARA; WHO WILL TAKE NO RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOUR SOUL AFTER YOUR DEMISE, HOW CAN YOUR RECITATION OF THAT NAAM BRING YOU SALVATION?
    Source:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=14966 (Being Naamdhari is Sikhi)

    ONLY BY RECEIVING NAAM FROM, OR THROUGH THE ORDER OF, ONE WHO IS IMMERSED IN NAAM HIMSELF 24 HOURS A DAY WITH EACH BREATH, WHO LEADS BY EXAMPLE HOW TO LIVE A LIFE THAT IS COLOURED BY NAAM CAN WE HOPE TO ACHIEVE SALVATION FROM THE CYCLE OF 840,000.

    SUCH ARE THE INSTRUCTIONS GIVEN TO US IN THE HOLY GRANTH SAHIBS WHICH WE ALL READ.


    So now I ask you:

    How is this belief harmful to Sikhi? How are the adherants to this belief not Sikhs?

    Guru Ram Singhji did by preaching and deed what no man can do and everything that Gurus had done before Him. How could those who came into contact with Him not call Him Guru? How can we, who have recieved the love and grace of Guru Jagjit Singhji not call Him Guru? Any more than those who came into Guru Nanakdevji's fold were compelled through His love to call Him their Master! Guru Ram Singhji taught nothing new, He merely, like Guru Nanakdevji, renewed a truth about love and freedom that mankind had forgotten.

    All of you on these sites who profess to be followers of that wonderous Gurudom of Guru Nanakdevji: give up your bigotries, give up Sikhism and embrase SIKHI. Set yourselves on a path of learning rather than teaching, for we are the students, the Sikhs of our great Master: The SATGURU.

    Sat Sri Akaal
     
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  3. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    josh ji

    This is an admin note:

    Many are sympathetic to your request to stay focused one topic at a time in a forum thread. Unfortunately a single forum member cannot establish the rules for discussion for all the other members. As long as forum guidelines are not violated, at SPN, we are light-handed in our moderation.

    Abusiveness in the form of hostilities directed against individual discussants in a thread will be noted, and infractions or even deletions imposed according to the judgment of thread moderators or admin.

    When discussions go off topic new threads are frequently opened and those who digress are warned.

    Since you have listed a number of issues related to the thread title, it is IMHO a foregone conclusion that there will be many parallel discussions as the thread evolves. These parallel discussions would not be digressions in every instance. Because you have introduced a complex topic in a complex way.

    You will also meet forum members who do not see the thread topic in black and white. Rather they will probably disagree with the premise that Namdharis are practicing Sikhi and Sikhism. Yet they will also express the opinion that Namdharis played a crucial role during the independence struggle and that they have a sincere devotion to Guru Nanak.

    Other than that, no promises can be made. The topic is interesting. And I hope that interesting discussion and debate ensues.

    :welcome: Narayanjot Kaur
     
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  4. Josh martin

    Josh martin
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    I would also request your opinion/view on the topic "being namdhari is sikh".

    Thx for explaining the technicalities
     
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  5. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    Josh ji

    I am honored and will give my opinion later in the day. At this moment I am looking at all the new threads, responding when I can because the response is short, and moving on to the next thread.


    Always on the lookout for forum issues :}8-:.

    Your comments deserve more than a quick and flip response. So I hope you will forgive me and give me some time.
     
  6. Josh martin

    Josh martin
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    It does take less muscles to smile than frown:)
     
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  7. Tejwant Singh

    Tejwant Singh United States
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    Josh Martin ji,

    Guru Fateh.

    Before I respond to your queries, can you please share with us if you are born a Namdhari or a convert. The reason I asked you that is because of your name as your user ID.

    Thanks

    Tejwant Singh
     
  8. Josh martin

    Josh martin
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    Born sikh, not namdhari or convert. Also, not my real name.
     
  9. Tejwant Singh

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    One wonders why! But anyway, can you please explain the difference between a Sikh and a Naamdhari with the help of Gurbani from SGGS our ONLY GURU?

    Thanks

    Tejwant Singh
     
  10. Josh martin

    Josh martin
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    [qoute]the difference between a Sikh and a Naamdhari with the help of Gurbani from SGGS our ONLY GURU?[/quote]

    Premises of this topic is "being naamdhari is sikhi". The auther, sikh naamdhari, who seems to have gone through pains to write something close to his heart, has dedicted his entire post to your very question.
     
  11. Tejwant Singh

    Tejwant Singh United States
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    Premises of this topic is "being naamdhari is sikhi". The auther, sikh naamdhari, who seems to have gone through pains to write something close to his heart, has dedicted his entire post to your very question.[/quote]

    Josh ji,

    Guru Fateh,

    I am sorry to say that I can only respond to your queries once I understand the difference between a Sikh and a Naamdhari based on SGGS, our Only Guru.

    What is your personal opinion? Please share with us as you said you are a Naamdhari.

    Regards

    Tejwant Singh
     
  12. Josh martin

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    I must have confused you. I am not a naamdhari. Born sikh, not convert or naamdhari.

    Sikh naamdhari is the person who wrote this article, I simply copy pasted it. When I said , the author, sikh naamdhari, seems to went through pains... I meant the real author of article; Sikh Philosophy Network - View Profile: Sikh Namdhari, article; http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/interfaith-dialogues/14966-being-naamdhari-is-sikhi.html

    I don't have any quarries. simply stated that Being namdhari is also sikhi. Later in his article, and I get a vibe you havn't read it, auther asks:

    How is this belief harmful to Sikhi? How are the adherants to this belief not Sikhs?


    I do like this quote:
    Sikhi is the journey of the indvidual, and each of us carry our own Spiritual torch and thanks to your dedication offer the light from your own torch to them like the scent of a flower which emits itself in all directions sans bais. What a great way Sikhi has taught us!
     
  13. Tejwant Singh

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    Josh ji,

    Guru Fateh.

    Yes, I have read the article. I wanted to know your opinion about the difference between a Sikh and a Naamdhari. As you have posted the essay by someone , you must have some kind of opinion as a Sikh which is based on SGGS, our ONLY GURU.

    Can you request the Naamdhari gentleman who has written this essay to come and interact here. I have a lot of questions to ask.

    As far as the quote is concerned, the one you like, I thank you for that because that is my quote.:)

    Let us interact. Please do not hesitate to express yourself as a Sikh.


    Regards

    Tejwant
     
  14. Josh martin

    Josh martin
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    My opinion: Sikh is defined by rehat, not by bieng born a sikh or converting to sikh"ism"
    I believe being a sikh has nothing to do with wether you are naamdhari, muslim, diff caste, male/female, etc
     
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  15. Tejwant Singh

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    Josh ji,

    Guru Fateh.

    I am a bit confused by your response.

    Please define rehat according to SGGS, our ONLY GURU.

    How can a Muslim be a Sikh? Please elaborate your thought on that.

    Tejwant Singh
     
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  16. Josh martin

    Josh martin
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    I like this quote from the original post
    "All of you on these sites who profess to be followers of that wonderous Gurudom of Guru Nanakdevji: give up your bigotries, give up Sikhism and embrase SIKHI. Set yourselves on a path of learning rather than teaching, for we are the students, the Sikhs of our great Master: The SATGURU."

    Rehat would be to follow Guru Ji's mat.

    Muslims-sikhs? Is sikhi limited to birth right?

    I would like to hear your opinion on same questions you asked me.

    What is the difference between naamdhari and sikh?
    How do you see rehat?.. based on SGGS, our ONLY GURU
     
  17. Huck_Finn

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    Sikhi needs no license
     
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  18. Josh martin

    Josh martin
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    Nice reply, wait wut does it mean by " no license"?
    Also what's your view on main topic? Naamdhari's are sikhs too?
     
  19. Huck_Finn

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    only the person would know if he/she is a SIKH

    no one else can tell him/her that he/she is a sikh or not.

    I hope that answers your first and second question.
     
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  20. Huck_Finn

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  21. Randip Singh

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    For me, my disagreements start here, so really no need to continue the rest.

    Best Wishes
     
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