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Sufism Bawa Muhaiyaddeen

Discussion in 'Interfaith Dialogues' started by namjiwankaur, Sep 24, 2012.

  1. namjiwankaur

    namjiwankaur
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    I thought it would be good to have a thread dedicated to the teachings of Bawa Muhaiyaddeen. He was considered a saint by Sufis, Muslims, Hindus, Christians and others. I posted a quote in another thread a little while ago and I would like to start this thread by posting it here:

    "You are a Christian because you believe in Jesus, and you are a Jew because you believe in all the prophets including Moses. You are a Muslim because you believe in Muhammad as a prophet, and you are a Sufi because you believe in the universal teaching of God's love. You are really none of those, but you are all of those because you believe in God. And once you believe in God, there is no religion. Once you divide yourself off with religions, you are separated from your fellowman." M.R. Muhaiyaddeen


    Something I recently discovered about Sikhism is Nanak Jot (the Light of the Guru Nanak which also exists in all the other gurus and in the Guru Granth Sahib

    In Sufism, there is the teaching about Nur Muhammad. It basically means that there was One Light shared by all the Prophets.

    I know that Islam claims that Muhammad pbuh is the final messenger of God, but I interpret it to mean he is the last prophet of the Abrahamic traditions. It seems clear that the Abrahamic message ended with Muhammad.

    I sometimes think that the Dharmic religions have their own Light Source. It would be made of Buddha, the Sikh Gurus, Jain avatars, etc..

    In the end, even if there is a Dharmic Light Source and a Abrahamic Light Source (along with the possibility of other Light Sources for shamans/indigenous religions/Native Americans)...even these only appear to be separated by maya and are truly One Light Source going back to the Divine Light that they come from. It is as if God gave a different language to the various religions knowing there are different times and places and types of people. Whether it is Jews worshiping the Divine in a synagogue or Muslims worshiping in a synagogue or Sikhs in a Gurdwara or Native Americans in a ceremony, it is ultimately One Religion taught by a "multilingual" God.

    Responses? I'm looking forward to hearing them.

    peacesign
     
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  3. namjiwankaur

    namjiwankaur
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    Sat Nam _/|\_

    What did Bawa ji teach about Muhammad being the last messenger. The quote below come from an article at the Bawa Muhaiyaddeen Fellowship website.

    http://www.bmf.org/m/wisdom/prophet-muhammad.html

    Questioner: If Muhammad (Sal.) is the last prophet, are we to expect no more?

    Bawa Muhaiyaddeen: No more. There will be no other prophet after Muhammad (Sal.). So if another prophet comes, it will have to be a prophet that has already been here. They say that a prophet who left this world will come back again, and the world accepts that. All four religions say that, but only when we believe in God will any prophets come to us. We have sent God away, we have asked Him to go away. Why should prophets come to a place where God will not come? We do not have the qualities or actions of God. We do not have trust or faith in God. We do not have the compassion of God. We do not have the fervor of firm determination and certitude in God.

    Such a state does not exist in this kingdom of animals, this kingdom where one life kills another life. Here we find only arrogance. Here we find the religions of Hinduism, Zoroastrianism, Christianity, and Islam (Zabur, Jabrat, Injıl, and Furqan). We travel from the north, south, east, and west along these four main roads or their many offshoots, saying: I am Catholic. I am Protestant. I am a Muslim. I am a Jehovah’s witness. I am Shiite. I am a Sufi. I am Hanifi. I am Hanbali. I am Maliki.


    --Bawa Muhaiyaddeen

    What are your thoughts on this?
     
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  4. Rory

    Rory
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    I like the sound of this man!

    Bang-on target Namji, I've been thinking this myself for a long time! I'm still on the fence as to whether this belief is compatible with the Abrahamic religions or not but I'm very interested to hear more. I am sure Vouthon-ji will contribute greatly to this thread when he gets a chance, it seems like his kind of thread.

    It's sad that this is how things are but it's good that we have the ability to realize it and then the ability to step away from the labels of sects (and on that note, the labels of caste, race, class, gender..) Completely in line with the teachings of Sikhism.

    ਹਿੰਦੂ ਤੁਰਕ ਕੋਊ ਰਾਫਜੀ ਇਮਾਮ ਸਾਫੀ ਮਾਨਸ ਕੀ ਜਾਤਿ ਸਬੈ ਏਕੈ ਪਹਿਚਾਨਬੋ ॥
    हिंदू तुरक कोऊ राफजी इमाम साफी मानस की जाति सबै एकै पहिचानबो ॥
    Someone is Hindu and someone a Muslim, then someone is Shia, and someone a Sunni, but all the human beings, as a species, are recognized as one and the same.

    [...]

    ਦੇਹਰਾ ਮਸੀਤ ਸੋਈ ਪੂਜਾ ਔ ਨਿਵਾਜ ਓਈ ਮਾਨਸ ਸਬੈ ਏਕ ਪੈ ਅਨੇਕ ਕੋ ਭ੍ਰਮਾਉ ਹੈ ॥
    देहरा मसीत सोई पूजा औ निवाज ओई मानस सबै एक पै अनेक को भ्रमाउ है ॥
    The temple and the mosque are the same, there is no difference between a Hindu worship and Muslim prayer; all the human beings are the same, but the illusion is of various types.

    [...]

    ਅਲਹ ਅਭੇਖ ਸੋਈ ਪੁਰਾਨ ਅਉ ਕੁਰਾਨ ਓਈ ਏਕ ਹੀ ਸਰੂਪ ਸਭੈ ਏਕ ਹੀ ਬਨਾਉ ਹੈ ॥੧੬॥੮੬॥
    अलह अभेख सोई पुरान अउ कुरान ओई एक ही सरूप सभै एक ही बनाउ है ॥१६॥८६॥
    Allah of Muslims and Abhekh (Guiseless) of Hindus are the same, the Puranas of Hindus and the holy Quran of the Muslims depict the same reality; all have been created in the image of the same Lord and have the same formation. 16.86.

    [...]
    - Sri Dasam p.51
     
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  5. Kanwaljit Singh

    Kanwaljit Singh India
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    In this Universe, there is no first or last. No first or last human. No first or last stars.

    Yes Muhammad was last Prophet of Muslims. Guru Nanak was first Guru of Sikhs and Guru Granth Sahib is last Guru of Sikhs.
     
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  6. Ambarsaria

    Ambarsaria Canada
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    Namjiwankaur ji the following is logically double-speak of worst kind for me,

    It is like creating a Catch-22 statement. It goes like, you know, even if he is not last there won't be any others because world or you do not deserve to get one. So one has appeased those that may get offended and in the mean time have not said anything in contradiction while claiming to be saying so.

    In Sikhism God/creator does not come and go and neither God/creator stops creating, whether such are classified by society as brilliant, pious, thieves, scums, prophets, sages, and so on. God/creator does not work on anyone's whim in benevolence or retribution. We just need to learn the ways of the creator and creation as much as we can and live by those in consonance. That is God/creator's way and no one can copyright or monopolize it in the name of a religion, philosophy or other gimmicks.

    Regards.
     
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  7. namjiwankaur

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    Sat Nam!

    Kanwaljit ji & Ambarsaria ji


    @ Ambarsaria ji: You are entitled to your own beliefs, of course.

    Not being Sufi, you might miss some of what Bawa ji is teaching here. No catch-22.

    Bawa teaches about the Nur Muhammad (a Prophetic Light that has existed forever and that all Prophetic messages come from). He's saying that any messengers to follow Muhammad are part of this Prophetic Light.

    Sikhism teaches a similar concept and calls it Nanak Jot. This got me wondering how this Light works. Is the Nur Muhammad separate from the Nanak Jot or is it the same thing by a different name. For me, it is fascinating that Sikhism teaches a "Guru" version of Nur Muhammad.

    Again you have missed much of what Bawa was getting at. You missed the deeper message. He's not speaking literally. He's speaking the same language the gurus spoke and the gurus present similar scenarios in Sri Guru Granth Sabhib. Bawa is speaking of the 5 Desires that interfere with a union with the Divine. He speaks of an epidemic of darkness. To overcome that darkness, they have to turn toward the Light. He is saying that people have lost God & in the west we have become very secular, not that God has comes and goes!

    @ Kanwaljit ji: I agree. Bawa's teachings can never be taken only literally, there is much mysticism in them. He speaks to people who are at different levels. What a person just starting on the path hears and what a more spiritually mature person hears, are completely different. He's saying much more than Muhammad is the final messenger. He's sharing the secret of the Nur Muhammad.

    What you wrote resonates with all this. So I'm wondering if you can expand more on what you have written. It made me wonder if you are speaking of Jot Nanak.

    Nam Jiwan :)

     
  8. Ambarsaria

    Ambarsaria Canada
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    namjiwankaur ji I cannot relate to the following,
    Guru ji's from all inferences and writings distanced themselves from being or treated differently from anyone else around. They were teachers who encouraged finding and discovering wisdom that resides in all to be discovered or realized.

    It is fascinating where you are picking up stuff like Nanak Jot from! Perhaps you can explain and cite.

    Within Sikhism there is metaphoric use of all as one light , as dust, as matter, etc., but none of this specific to someone being the place where you go to get it or through someone to get it. In Sikhism the issue and focus is realization and not some far fangled discovery beyond ourselves but from within ourselves.

    I am simply sharing my understanding and by no means I will claim to be knowing more than others.

    Regards.
     
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  9. namjiwankaur

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    Sat Nam _/|\_

    Ambarsaria ji

    Most of the prophets of other religions also believed this. For example, Buddha taught all can reach nirvana. Muhammad commanded that Muslims not idolize him like some Christians did with Jesus. IMHO, Jesus felt himself to be a rabbi (teacher)---not God.

    The simplist explanation is here: http://sikhism.about.com/od/glossary/g/Jot-Light.htm

    Jot is Real. Maya covers it. Its not a metaphor. Read about this Light as experienced during near death experiences. Many saints have seen this Light. Many Prophets have been seen shining with this Light. The Light is everything we are. Our bodies are dust/earth. But our soul is Light. And when we die, near death experiences show that we are all beings of Light.

    You can read a little about it here: http://near-death.com/experiences/research19.html

    Of course, you have your own experiences. Maybe we need to learn to honor each others' experiences. I suspect since none of us have met God "face to face", we should try to honor how God expresses ItSelf and through our naivety, we claim that Self is somehow not Who We Are.

    So for you, this may feel very far-fetched, but God can share the God-Experience in Infinite Ways. You have your experiences; I have mine. Let's meet where we can both sit together and say, "Dear God, hear our prayer."

    A video of a woman describing her near-death experience:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2y5soNE8KU&feature=player_embedded#! kaurhug
     
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  10. Luckysingh

    Luckysingh Canada
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    Nanak Jyot is a term that can be used to describe the special illuminating jyot that all the Gurus had within them.
    It is sometimes termed this loose term to differentiate this jyot from any other.
    It is confined to the 10 Gurus and is now forever present in the Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

    It is this Jyot, that gave the message of the Guru through the 10 successive beings.

    It is the reason why, the whole Guru Granth Sahib Ji can be viewed as one complete scripture as the style and structure is the same throughout.
    If someone with no knowledge of the different Gurus were to read the entire composition, then it would be interpreted to them as if it were written by the ONE same being.

    We know this was not so and it was written over a couple of hundred years by successive Gurus. However, it is the ''Nanak jyot'' that keeps the element as if it were a message from only ONE.
    Today the completed compostion still carries that Jyot.
     
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  11. namjiwankaur

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    _/|\_ Sat Nam

    Dear Lucky ji

    Thank you for describing the Nanak Jyot so well. I know this seems to "out-of-this-world" for some, but others know it is what exists once maya is gone. A beautiful Light.

    I had visions of of Divine Light connecting all creation to the Divine Light & to each other. Essentially, I saw it is all One Light. I felt like the trees out the window were my friends. I realized they are the Divine also and therefore my kin. It was an awesome experience even though it felt like I'd been visiting with Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds. lol lol lol

    One question. I know that many of the gurus who followed Nanak referred to themselves as Nanak in parts of SGGS. Is this because of the Nanak Jot?

    Love all,
    Nam Jiwan
     
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  12. Rory

    Rory
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    Great questions, Namjiwankaur-ji.
    Your posts are thought-provoking.

    I would love an answer to this as well.
     
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  13. Navdeep88

    Navdeep88 Canada
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    Nam Jiwan Ji,

    I like your Post b/c it speaks about Diversity. People need to get over the whole, Just us & them thing, No One is any more Special than another, if we're the Same species, there's nothing in One that makes 1 more Special than another.

    That being said, a Person is allowed to be Proud of where they come from & their Tradition, w/out Enforcing it on another. In fact, this is Precisely where henious Crimes come from: Intolerance. A Sheer focus on Diference that doesn't allow People to look for the unity in others.

    I've been thinking about this for a while., ever since that Wisconsin tragedy happened, & the idea that those beliefs are well & alive in the Community that I live in. Not to mention, before, events like the Holocaust. What makes them be real? & the Answer I come up w/ is, Intolerance, People so Focused on Difference that they can't Get over it. & Imo, in Order to Survive in the World, & to learn One Must make Room in their Lives for what they do not know, for Difference.
     
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  14. namjiwankaur

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    Sat Nam

    Navdeep ji

    Unity in diversity...imagine a world that actually lived by that model.

    I have noticed that I've become too opinionated. And rather than open my mind and heart to all opinions, I'm pushing my views as the "right way". I don't like that in myself and one reason I am exploring Sikhi is it teaches so much about tolerance and diversity.

    I hope I will learn this lesson about tolerance and the beauty of diversity.

    Nam Jiwan kaurhug
     
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  15. Luckysingh

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    There is absolutely Nothing ''out of this world'' about your expression and visions.
    The ''Light'' is much more significant than we actually realize!!

    I feel it is more than divine, infact it may just be the ''divine''

    The answer to your question is -
    -yes, I believe so. They used the reference Nanak throughout as he was the initiator and first to be illuminated by the jyot.
     
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  16. Luckysingh

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    Navdeepji,
    You touched on a very important note there- Tolerance.

    Tolerance is a huge part of being gurmatt.
    It is to accept and bear insult or dishonour from others.
    It is the strength of the MIND to accept both joy and pain, happiness and sad with complete Equal Mindedness.

    The lack of tolerance is the root of ALL the troubles and lack of peace in the world.
     
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  17. harmanpreet singh

    harmanpreet singh India
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    Dear Nam jivan ji ,

    may i ask what r your personel views on " Last Prophet " ?
     
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  18. namjiwankaur

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    _/|\_ Sat Nam

    Harmanpreet ji

    I think there is a Prophetic Light.

    Sufis call it Nur Muhammad. It has existed forever. As I've contemplated on this for years, Nur Muhammad seems to be the Light of the Abrahamic tradition/People of the Book/Christians, Jews and Muslims. Bawa ji teaches that any prophet who comes after Muhammad will be one who has been here before. Christians believe Christ will return. But Christ's Light, Muhammad's Light and Moses' Light are the Same Light/Nur Muhammad.

    WaheGuru has given many Prophetic Lamps to humanity. Communities gather around them to receive Light from them. Nanak Jot is the Gurus' Light. This is why the Light radiates with so much beauty from Guru Granth Sahib. It is filled with Nanak Jot.

    Blessed Be
    Nam Jiwan :)



     
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  19. Ambarsaria

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    Luckysingh ji thanks for your post. I appreciate your expression of love and respect for Guru Nanak Dev ji. I do have a commnet.
    I totally diagree with your comment about " ... first to be illuminated by the jyot". If Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji as whole is what all Guru ji and all other contributors stood for then there is no first and no last or even a need to restrict the jyot to people who contributed to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. The creator and creation is beyond anyone and beyond description in any form. Guru ji so teach us in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. So jyot is not proprietary or limited but is all pervading and in all. Manifested as our soul, our thinking, our behavior, our actions, etc.

    Just to debunk it in a pretty straightforward way, Baba Farid ji and Bhagat Kabir ji were there before Guru Nanak ji. They were not devoid of jyot having been vetted and included in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji with some of their contributions.

    We need to resist the temptation of comparing our Guru ji's and Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji with other prophets, Holy books of such believers in such religions.

    Sat Sri Akal.
     
    #18 Ambarsaria, Oct 2, 2012
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2012
  20. Luckysingh

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    I'm sorry, my reply and explanation was to the Guru Granth Sahibji and Guru Nanak Dev ji.
    Guru Nanak Dev ji starts the Granth Sahib and he is referenced throughout by all contributors.
    I am discussing this in terms of the Nanak jyot mentioned and explaining why such a term may be used.
    This was to keep the answer informative yet simple for Nam Jiwan ji.

    I apologise if it was misleading, although I do try to format in such a way as to avoid confusion.

    bhul chuk marf
    Waheguru.
     
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