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Islam As a Sikh: Am I Infidel or Kaffir for Islam

Discussion in 'Interfaith Dialogues' started by Ambarsaria, Jan 28, 2011.

  1. Ambarsaria

    Ambarsaria Canada
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    I submit the following in blunt fashion but not out of total ignorance. I want to be corrected if I state something wrong as for me these are nagging questions perhaps in many Sikhs minds. Before partition in 1947, Sikhs and Muslims lived very well together in Punjab. Culturally they were so close to each other.


    However things seem to be keep getting worse by evil design or other things that I don’t know enough about.


    So please bear with me and help or comment if you can. It may clarify mis-conceptions if these exist or raise awareness for interfaith dialog for the better. I rather live with bitter truth(s) than bliss of ignorance.

    Rest of the post as clearly as I know how in generally layman’s language.
    ____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

    The Arabic word Kaffir (literally the one who "covers", usually translated as "disbeliever" ) is the Muslim term commonly translated into English as infidel.

    • Kaffir and Infidels , in the Islamic doctrinal sense, the term refers to a person who does not recognize the one God Allah(1)

    • Sikhs believe in Allah but different understanding however it is one God!
    • atheists, e.g. Buddhists, communists, declared atheist societies like China
    • polytheists, e.g. Hindus
    • The following moved from Good to bad category based on later revelations of Muhammad
    • religions such as Christianity, Judaism - who are seen as "People of the Book (Ahl-e-kitab)"
    • Not Kaffir and Infidels

    • Muslims
    • Allah (1)

    • Islam

    • You only get to Allah after death
    • Allah punishes and reward
      • Allah only possible through Muhammad

    • Hell for being bad
    • Hell for not taking the Muhammad directed path
    • Hell for not following the Quran

    • Allah only possible through Muhammad
        • Heaven for following Muhammad’s directions
        • Heaven for following the Quran
        • Rewards in heaven for dealing with Kafirs and Infidels

    • Sikhism

    • Sikhism helps you discover God everywhere and in everything
    • Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji provides nourishment for discovery of God
    • No directions from a God’s messenger
    • No promise of hell or heaven

    • Generally, you sow, so shall you reap
    • All good and bad acts are in consonant with God
    • Kaffir, like infidel, has also come to be regarded as offensive,
      • If in the name of Islam, Taliban have beheaded a Sikh where is the ground swell of indignation against it
        • It is not good enough some scholar(s) to say it is wrong
        • Where are rest of the muslims that cannot find and dispose such people to Allah’s wrath and hell

    • What is there to say that there was a full village of Sikhs in Afghanistan that Taliban would not either convert or kill all of the men, women and children
    • In the name of Islam, Sikhs arrested and charged with offenses in the Middle East and Arab World, get different justice meted out versus Muslims with same offense
    • Paranoia does not guide this but the sugar coated speeches or explanations are not acceptable
    • Community and spiritual silence in such situations is deafening
    • Why isn’t there a guidance coming from Islam Holy places like Mecca in this regard
      • Is there tacit approval or one life does not count in Islam!

    I know in any community not everyone is either the same good/bad but it will be great if some insights are provided.

    Thank you.
     
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    #1 Ambarsaria, Jan 28, 2011
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2011
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  3. spnadmin

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    Ambarsaria ji

    Not a day of reading the newspapers goes by when these very questions do not trouble me. And I am often at a loss to know whether my reactions, thoughts, words and deeds are coming from a moral place when I am horrified and even angered by blasphemy laws that put members of religious minorities in Pakistan on trial for their lives, when Sikh citizens of Pakistan live in fear and are kidnapped or beheaded, when Coptic churches are bombed in Egypt, when insurgent groups think it is OK to car bomb innocents in a Moscow airport, when a 14 year old pregnant girl is condemned to be stoned in Nigeria, when havoc and ruin visits Mumbai because splinter groups want to teach someone a lesson, when when when when...

    We may just be waking to the reality that the vast majority of muslims do not buy into ideas of democracy, have uniquely islamic definitions of justice, and are looking at the world through a different lens.

    You are not going to get simple answers to your questions because history surpasses what you will find in Islamic law- hadith - that advises one deal harshly with infidels and describes exactly how to do it. Centuries have passed, a way of thinking persists. Economic factors, corrupt governments, post colonial fears of manipulation by major political players, cultural norms, and models of education make this even more complex. So why don't rational people in Islam speak out? They do. We just don't have easy access to their writing. Sometimes they are deprived of having a voice. Or like Rushdi they have to live with police guards, Or they are simply afraid. Why don't Sufis speak out? Right now they are on the hit list, and this is not the first time in history either. It is very complicated.
     
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  4. Gyani Jarnail Singh

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    Those who speak out do get KILLED..like what happened to the Governor Punjab in Lahore weeks ago...its not an easy decision to speak out...one must put ones life on the line..and how many are prepared to do that..VERY VERY VERY FEW !!
     
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  5. kds1980

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    It is myth that Sikhs and muslims lived very well before partition.I use to hear lots of stories
    from my late grandmother about her native village in Pakistan.She told me Sikhs don't use to eat from the hands of muslims anything even on the occassion of weddings raw material was sent to Sikhs home so they can themselves cook.On the other hand muslims did not allow Sikhs to Eat Jhatka meat .they say if you want to eat meat then eat halal.She also use to tell me how some men use to bring a live chicken or jhatka meat from nearby village and try to cook it with telling everybody to close the door.She also told me once a muslim entered their home who has humurous nature when they were cooking meat and said "sardar ji aaj meat bana hai" and everybody in the home was denying it
    Also the sound of kirtan should not had been loud as muslims may object that.So Sikhs were living with muslims only on their terms though my grandmother also told me that the same villagers helped her father and family during partition riots and informed him that rioters are coming so just move out
     
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  6. spnadmin

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    Ambarsaria ji

    These are the kinds of issues I referred to earlier. No easy answers. Just the short list too.

     
  7. Ambarsaria

    Ambarsaria Canada
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    May be I will end up answering my own post completely at a later time.

    Hidus, Sikhs and Sufis and moderate muslims (not with evil suppressed) perhaps need to thank every morning the establishment of Khalsa in 1699 and onwards.

    Perhaps none of these or us will be around in quantities if at all.

    However what has probably fuelled the growth of fanaticism and picking up where they left off with the Sikhs in 1708, is the temporary supply of Petro dollars. Once these drop off the fanaticism will start to decline.

    Over our generation, the next generation or the generation after the tables might turn quite drastically for the sponsors of the madness (that is how it feels sometimes).

    Where is Banda Singh Bahadar, Hari Singh Nalwa and others when you want and need them?

    There will be some of :angryyoungsingh: , some of :angryyoungkaur:, some of swordfight, some of :swordfight-kudiyan:before there is at the end some of peacesignkaur, some of peacesignand finally some of kaurhugand some of mundahug.

    Sat Sri Akal.

    PS: I don't know the history of interfaith dialog at SPN and am pretty sure none will be forthcoming from a genuine Islam follower any time soon. Might as well enjoy some music,
    YouTube - IKALLA SARDAAR (GARY HOTHI) BEST PUNJABI SONG
    YouTube - Son Of A Sarda
     
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  8. Tejwant Singh

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    Ambarsaria ji,

    Guru Fateh.

    I like your user's name which shows you are from Amritsar.:)

    Now to answer to your question:
    As a Sikh: Am I Infidel or Kaffir for Islam?

    Allow me to give my 2 cent worth. For a Muslim, anyone who is NOT a Muslim is an infidel and Kaffir and should face death. There are many verses in Quran that state this quite bluntly. The similar things are also mentioned in the Old Testament which the Jews and the Christians adhere to. Christian crusades were based on the Biblical teachings and many atrocities committed by the Christians in the past were justified by them as religious. Christian missionaries distributed smallpox laden blankets to the Native Americans.

    Christianity has mellowed down a bit around the world except in the US and many Christians do not take the teachings of the Bible literally.

    As Islam came into existence 700 years later than Christianity, let's hope it does not take this long for Islam to come around and discard the violence propagated in its holy book.

    We, as Sikhs are very fortunate in this sense. If we follow the teachings of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only Guru, then we will be able to eradicate the talibanisation of Sikhi which is happening in certain Sikh circles.

    Regards

    Tejwant Singh
     
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  9. Ambarsaria

    Ambarsaria Canada
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    Tejwant Singh ji thank you.

    Tejwant Singh ji I am from Amritsar, the heaven that it used to be way back.

    I understand your post just have one comments,
    "If we follow the teachings of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only Guru, then we will be able to eradicate the talibanisation of Sikhi which is happening in certain Sikh circles."

    I understand if you mean by talibanisation of sikhi to be the following then I agree,

    • Non-spiritual, Babey, shabey, more focussed on garb and rituals than the teachings of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji and our Gurus
    However if I understand that you mean by talibanisation of sikhi to be the following then I dis-agree,

    • Give the Taliban another neck, hand, foot or things like that in the name of peace, Gandhi's other cheek positioning or thinking they will suddenly become good or wait for the goodness of their heart.
    What I believe that is needed is make people aware and ensure that not even a single Sikh is lost and forgotten if any misfortune happens. If USA got hold of the guy who decapitated Daniel Pearl so can we,

      • Indian Government should contact Pakistan and Afghanistan and where ever this happens to a sikh and declare that Indian select Sikh commandos or others reserve the right to bring such garbage people to quick justice by whichever means
      • In the end these crooks who operate in the name of Islam (while the majority of their population out of so called fear stays silent) need to be held accountable
        • Not that I like President Bush particularly I liked one of his political lines,
          • We will bring these crooks to justice one day
    I am new to the forum at spn and heard and read good posts from yourself. Thank you.

    Sat Sri Akal.
     
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  10. Tejwant Singh

    Tejwant Singh United States
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    Ambarsaria ji,

    Guru Fateh.

    Thanks for your kind words. I am just a seeker like anyone else in this forum. Nothing more.

    You write:

    Yes, I mean the above and I would also like to add that by talibanisation of Sikhi, I also mean some Sikh groups who have become anti Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only Guru and pro what they call Dasam Granth. They want the prakash of both in the Gurdwaras. There are many threads here where the above is discussed at length from all possible angles. If you have time, I would urge you to go through them and share your thoughts with us.

    There is a saying in English: "If you offer the other "cheek", it means you want to be spanked again".:)

    By Taliban, I do not mean the Muslims only. 1984 holocaust on Sikhs was committed by the Hindu Talibans.

    Non-recognition of Sikhi as a religion in the Indian constitution is the invention of the same Taliban. One can also add anand Karaj in the same.

    I do not know if the above is true or not. Khalid Sheikh Mohammed did admit to the killing of Daniel Pearl but let's not forget that he was water boarded many times. One can say anything during this time and many confessions are coerced out of people through torture. We should not forget that 6 other people had also admitted to the same crime and I have no idea if they have been tried or still waiting for their trial.

    It is interesting to notice how torture and the fear of death works on people, especially on the Muslims who welcome death and are eager to meet their 72 virgins in Heaven.

    This is very unlike Sikhi. History is the witness how Sikhs were tortured, how Sikh girls and boys were decapitated for a price. The martyrdom of our 5th and 9th Guru and later on by brave Sikhs like Bhai Taru Singh, Bhai Mani Singh and many more show us that water boarding could have been a piece of cake for them. Thanks to them, and their following the Gurmat ideals, Sikhi is alive and well.

    Today, during the opening bell of Dow Jones, I was pleased to see a Sikh with a turban in the group who opened the stock market.
    I think, our first priority should be to eradicate Talibans in India, first by getting full justice against the criminals who committed the holocaust in 1984 and get the well deserved help to the widows and the orphans of those atrocities. Along with that we need to have the amendment of the Indian constitution for the things mentioned above.

    Once this is done, then the road to do other things to save the Sikhs in Pakistan, Afghanistan will be paved.

    Regards

    Tejwant Singh
     
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  11. Ambarsaria

    Ambarsaria Canada
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    Tejwant Singh ji I am all good with your response.

    You also touched on a chord or thought that I had but have not acted on.

    The post I have in the start of this thread could be so easily adopted towards the continuing cultural genocide and the 1984 physical genocide that occurred through Hinduism persecution of Sikhs. I have no doubt it ain't going to get any better soon either.

    For me Islam is a physical accident(s) and Hinduism is a terminal disease for Sikhism. Both need to be addressed and attended to intelligently with effectiveness of execution in thought and actions and selection of remedies as needed on an ongoing basis. Again sorry about some generalization here which I know are fraught with errors and can be easily attacked. The essence however is there without any doubt in my mind.

    I blame Mai Harinder Kaur ji for giving me some armamentanimatedkhanda1 :angryyoungsingh:. Good effort it is indeed.

    Sat Sri Akal.peacesign
     
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  12. Ambarsaria

    Ambarsaria Canada
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    Just discovered some of my answers from the below and some excerpts of Shaykh Anwar al-Awlaki writings,
    http://www.nefafoundation.org/miscellaneous/FeaturedDocs/nefaawlaki44wayssupportjihad.pdf
    http://nefafoundation.org//file/InspireAwlaki1-11.pdf

    Note: In the following "dār al-ĥarb" basically translates into land of dis-believers and/or where Muslims have a conflict at any level with locals.
    “Implications on our present day work: Every Muslim who lives in dār al-ĥarb should avoid paying any of his wealth to the disbelievers whether it be in the form of taxes, duties, or fines. If a Muslim is allowed to deceive the disbelievers to appropriate their wealth then he is also allowed to deceive them to avoid paying them his wealth.”


    “Even though it is allowed to seize the property of individuals in dār al-ĥarb, we suggest that Muslims avoid targeting citizens of countries where the public opinion is supportive of some of the Muslim causes. We therefore suggest that the following should be targeted:
    • Government owned property
    • Banks
    • Global corporations
    • Wealth belonging to disbelievers with known animosity towards Muslims”


    “In the case of the United States, both the government and private citizens should be targeted. America and Americans are the Imam’s of kufr in this day and age. The American people who vote for war mongering governments are intent

    “The situation of Muslims living today in dār al-ĥarb would be similar to the above-mentioned case. The Muslims have no Imam to seek permission from, they have no protecting force, and what they can take would be by means of theft and embezzlement. So according to the rules set by the Hanafi School, the money seized by Muslims who are in dār al-ĥarb can be appropriated in its entirety by themselves.”

    “Notice here that Imam al-Abbadi compares this booty to hunting and wood gathering. This is because wild beasts and timber in the forest are not the ‘rightful property"’of anyone. The reasoning behind comparing booty to hunting and wood gathering is because the property which exists in the hands of the disbelievers is not considered to be rightfully theirs in our Islamic shari’ah because of their disbelief and when Islam does give them the right to own it, it is an exception to the rule such as in the case of ahl al-dhimma after they pay jizyah. This is why our scholars say that Allah has called booty as ‘fai’’which means ‘to return’, so they say that the property of the disbelievers that doesn’t belong to them has ‘returned’ to the believer: its ‘rightful owner’.”

    “Therefore the Hanafi School considers that the one-fifth that is taken out from the booty and handed over to the Amir is in exchange of his protection. If this protection doesn’t exist then the individuals or group of individuals are not obligated to pay anything. So if an individual takes wealth from the disbelievers in the land of war and he does not use force but takes it by means of theft or embezzlement, it is not considered ghanīmah according to the Hanafi School. So then what is it?”

    “Second: The Muslim society today is very intolerant towards polygamy - which becomes a social necessity especially in times of war. So isn’t it unfair to deprive millions of Muslim sisters from the blessings of marriage?”
    “No woman in the time of the sahabah was left without a husband - a partner who would take care of her psychological, physical and financial needs. When Ja’far died Abu Bakr married his wife and took care of her children.”
    Wow it explains why the Sikh was beheaded and no outcry from common Muslim folk. According to some of the above it is all legit.

    It is like nothing really changed in the last 500 years.



    People be watchful and not be conned. I don't have Islamophobia but when I come across this kind of stuff (may be propaganda) I get less sure of Islamic truth and more sure of Islamic ways.


    Sat Sri Akal.
     
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    #11 Ambarsaria, Jan 30, 2011
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2011

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