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Are Creator and Creation the Same in Sikhism?

Discussion in 'Sikh Sikhi Sikhism' started by K.Venugopal, Mar 16, 2009.

  1. K.Venugopal

    K.Venugopal
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    A Sikh on another forum said that according to Sikhism, the creator and his creation is one. I wanted to verify what he said and googled. That was when I came across your forum. I have now become a member and my first question is whether it is true that Sikhism believes that the creator and His creation is one.
     
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  3. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    Re: Introducing Myself

    K.Venugopal1 JI

    First of all may I welcome you to SPN. I did the same as you. Googled a subject and navigated to the forum, and never left.

    To your question: The notion that the Creator and Creation are one means that there is no duality. The Creator is in His Creation; all that is created is permeated with the presence and immanence of the Creator.

    Here is where sometimes we can get confused. To say that Creator and Creation are one does NOT mean that they are equal or equivalent or "the same thing." Why? Because the Creator is also greater than Creation. He is beyond everything. The metaphor that is found in Gurbani to express this is "the fish is in the ocean; the ocean is in the fish." The ocean is much greater than the fish.

    We have god-consciousness. We have god-centered hearts. Waheguru, is within each and everyone and searches each and every heart. But I am not the creator, Kartar Purakh Akaal. And Akaal is greater than I am.

    The essence of this is the need to move toward union with divine consciousness; not to become Akaal Himself.
     
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  4. vsgrewal48895

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    Creation & Creator in Sikhism

    Creation is a process, which is unfolding according to the Absolute Divine Principle (God). It is of utmost importance to have a correct intellectual conception by the individual of the “Supreme Creator”, otherwise illogical and erroneous conception are capable of misleading and keeping in dark people who otherwise by their intuitions would be on the right track. The Universe itself is unfolding out of its own essence beyond the reach of our limited senses. Creation or the rule of existence is under one Divine Higher Power. It is a process, which applies to every thing seen (ਸਰਗੁਣੁ) and some thing in terms of Itself, cannot be defined or seen (ਨਿਰਗੁਣ). The visual manifestation in Mother Nature is the attributes (ਸਰਗੁਣੁ) of that Principle. It is One, and unity, which determines every thing, comes before every thing, and is the law of every thing.

    He, who sees the Eternal existing alike in imperishable and perishable things, sees indeed. So God is every where, in every atom of the visible and invisible Cosmos as a Power of evolution and involution as expressed by Guru Arjan in Raag Gauri and Farid Slokes and Kabir in Raag Parbhati;

    ਸੂਖਮ ਅਸਥੂਲ ਸਗਲ ਭਗਵਾਨ ॥

    Sūkẖam asthūl sagal bẖagvān.

    God exists in all subtle and gross matter (ਨਿਰਗੁਣ & ਸਰਗੁਣ).
    -----Guru Arjan, Thiti Raag Gauri, AGGS, Page, 299-17

    ਫਰੀਦਾ ਖਾਲਕੁ ਖਲਕ ਮਹਿ ਖਲਕ ਵਸੈ ਰਬ ਮਾਹਿ ॥

    Farīḏā kẖālak kẖalak meh kẖalak vasai rab māhi.

    Farid, the Creator is in the Creation, and the Creation abides in God.
    -----Guru Arjan, Sloke Farid, AGGS, Page, 1381-17

    ਲੋਗਾ ਭਰਮਿ ਨ ਭੂਲਹੁ ਭਾਈ ॥ ਖਾਲਿਕੁ ਖਲਕ ਖਲਕ ਮਹਿ ਖਾਲਿਕੁ ਪੂਰਿ ਰਹਿਓ ਸ੍ਰਬ ਠਾਂਈ ॥
    Logā bẖaram na bẖūlahu bẖā¬ī. Kẖālik kẖalak kẖalak meh kẖālik pūr rahi¬o sarab ṯẖāʼn¬ī.

    O people, O Siblings of Destiny, do not wander deluded by doubt. The Creation is in the Creator, and the Creator is in the Creation, totally pervading and permeating all places.
    -----Kabir, Raag Parbhati Bhibhas, AGGS, Page 1350-1

    ਬਨ ਮਹਿ ਪੇਖਿਓ ਤ੍ਰਿਣ ਮਹਿ ਪੇਖਿਓ ਗ੍ਰਿਹਿ ਪੇਖਿਓ ਉਦਾਸਾਏ ॥ ਦੰਡਧਾਰ ਜਟਧਾਰੈ ਪੇਖਿਓ ਵਰਤ ਨੇਮ ਤੀਰਥਾਏ ॥ ਸੰਤਸੰਗਿ ਪੇਖਿਓ ਮਨ ਮਾਏਂ ॥ ਊਭ ਪਇਆਲ ਸਰਬ ਮਹਿ ਪੂਰਨ ਰਸਿ ਮੰਗਲ ਗੁਣ ਗਾਏ ॥ ਜੋਗ ਭੇਖ ਸੰਨਿਆਸੈ ਪੇਖਿਓ ਜਤਿ ਜੰਗਮ ਕਾਪੜਾਏ ॥ ਤਪੀ ਤਪੀਸੁਰ ਮੁਨਿ ਮਹਿ ਪੇਖਿਓ ਨਟ ਨਾਟਿਕ ਨਿਰਤਾਏ ॥ ਚਹੁ ਮਹਿ ਪੇਖਿਓ ਖਟ ਮਹਿ ਪੇਖਿਓ ਦਸ ਅਸਟੀ ਸਿੰਮ੍ਰਿਤਾਏ ॥ ਸਭ ਮਿਲਿ ਏਕੋ ਏਕੁ ਵਖਾਨਹਿ ਤਉ ਕਿਸ ਤੇ ਕਹਉ ਦੁਰਾਏ ॥ ਅਗਹ ਅਗਹ ਬੇਅੰਤ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਨਹ ਕੀਮ ਕੀਮ ਕੀਮਾਏ ॥ ਜਨ ਨਾਨਕ ਤਿਨ ਕੈ ਬਲਿ ਬਲਿ ਜਾਈਐ ਜਿਹ ਘਟਿ ਪਰਗਟੀਆਏ ॥

    Ban mėh pekẖi▫o ṯariṇ mėh pekẖi▫o garihi pekẖi▫o uḏāsā▫e. Ḏandḏẖār jatḏẖārai pekẖi▫o varaṯ nem ṯīrthā▫e. Saṯsang pekẖi▫o man mā▫eʼn. Ūbẖ pa▫i▫āl sarab mėh pūran ras mangal guṇ gā▫e. Jog bẖekẖ sanni▫āsai pekẖi▫o jaṯ jangam kāpṛā▫e. Ŧapī ṯapīsur mun mėh pekẖi▫o nat nātik nirṯā▫e. Cẖahu mėh pekẖi▫o kẖat mėh pekẖi▫o ḏas astī simmriṯā▫e. Sabẖ mil eko ek vakẖānėh ṯa▫o kis ṯe kaha▫o ḏurā▫e. Agah agah be▫anṯ su▫āmī nah kīm kīm kīmā▫e. Jan Nānak ṯin kai bal bal jā▫ī▫ai jih gẖat pargatī▫ā▫e.

    I have seen Akal Purkh in the woods, in the fields, in the household, and in renunciation. I have seen It as a Yogi carrying His staff, with matted hair, fasting, making vows, and visiting sacred shrines of pilgrimage. I have seen It in the Society of the Saints, within my own mind, in the sky, in the nether regions of the underworld, pervading and permeating in everything. With love and joy, I sing Its Glorious Praises. I have seen It among the hermits, the ascetics, the celibates, the wandering hermits and the wearers of patched coats. I have seen It among the men of severe self-discipline, the silent sages, the actors, dramas and dances. I have seen It in the four Vedas, in the six Shaastras, in the eighteen Puraanas and the Simritees as well. All together, they declare that there is only One Akal Purkh. So tell me, from whom is It hidden? Unfathomable and Inaccessible, It is our Infinite Akal Purkh and Master; Its Value is beyond valuation. Servant Nanak is a sacrifice, a sacrifice to those, within whose heart It is revealed.
    -----Guru Arjan, Raag Bhairo, AGGS, Page, 1139
    Virinder S. Grewal
    Williamston, MI
     
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  5. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    AS is often said... ."IF you dont see GOD in ALL..you dont see GOD at ALL ". is similar.
     
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  6. vsgrewal48895

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    You are correct Giani Ji.

    ਏਕ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨੰ ਸਰਬ ਦੇਵਾ ਦੇਵ ਦੇਵਾ ਤ ਆਤਮਾ ॥ਆਤਮਾ ਬਾਸੁਦੇਵਸ੍ਯ੍ਯਿ ਜੇ ਕੋ ਜਾਣੈ ਭੇਉ ॥ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਤਾ ਕਾ ਦਾਸੁ ਹੈ ਸੋਈ ਨਿਰੰਜਨ ਦੇਉ ॥
    Ėk krisanʼn sarab ḏėvā ḏėv ḏėvā ṯa āṯmā. Āṯmā bāsḏėvsi­y jė ko jāṇai bẖė­o. Nānak ṯā kā ḏās hai so­ī niranjan ḏė­o.
    The Supreme Akal Purkh is God for all gods, beings and their Self. This Self is all pervasive, should one realize this secret. Nanak is slave of one with this realization; in whom is manifest the immaculate God. -----Guru Angad, Raag Asa, AGGS, Page, 469-15

    Thanks.
    Virinder
     
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  7. Ozarks

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    I believe that Sikhism has basically a panentheistic approach to theology. In that while all in Creation is contained within the Creator the Creator is grater than the sum of the parts. People are kind of like that. You are bones, blood, skin and so forth. However you are much more than that. If you were to die all of your parts would still be there, but what made them "more" would be gone. But while you are defined in part by your parts, so to is the Creator defined by the Creation. If the Creation was never created the Creator would loose all definition.
     
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  8. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    Ozarks

    On this I agree - In that while all in Creation is contained within the Creator the Creator is grater than the sum of the parts.

    Creation exists in time and space. Akaal is beyond time and place,. Akaal is also Kartar Purakh who is the Doer of Everything and who is beyond time and space. It then stands that Akaal is in His Creation and is also beyond Creation, beyond time and space.
     
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  9. harbansj24

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    Yes Ozarks ji. But his creation also does not define HIM completely. Man too can never acquire capability to define HIM completely (or even its near about). Even hypothetically, if we assume he does acquire it then that will be the end of mankind's present form!
     
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  10. AjitFlora

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    Hello All,
    Regarding the matter about the Creator and Creation being one,hope this analogy helps.

    The Dance exist only because of Dancer.The dance in itself has no independent existence without dancer but it comes into existence with the dancer.As the dancer moves his/her body in which ever way, the dance happens.
    You cannot separate the dance from dancer rather you come to know about the dancer through his/her dance and dance is because of dancer.Yet even when the dancer is dancing, the dancer didn't lose his/her identity. He/She is ever present even while dance is happening but once He/She stops dancing, the dance no longer happens but the dancer remains.
    Therefore, we can say that, Creator is in the Creation but as the same time it transcend the creation as well.Simultaneously. Just as we know that the dance is happening because of dancer and cannot separate dance and dancer but at the same time we cannot say that once the dance happens the dancer no longer remains. Rather the dancer is before creation, in the creation as well would remain after is as well.

    We can say Universe is God but we cannot say God is Universe as God transcend it as well.
    Being immanent in his creation is his Saguna form, with attributes and transcending the creation is his Nirgun form, without attributes.
     
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  11. Ozarks

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    Harbansj24 Ji,
    I completely agree. My thought on that is that without the Creation there would literally be no other way to attempt to define the Creator as the Creator would be the only thing that existed and would be without any point of reference. It is my belief that it was while in that state that the Creator came to the conclusion that his purpose was to create. And in doing so gave of the Creators "self" to allow creation to spring into being. With no exterior reference point for what that creation should be like all of Creation then reflects some portion or thought of the Creator. As such it would be the only way we can attempt to come to understand the vastness of the Creator is greater than all of the Creation and our attempts to define fall short because of those limitations. All our names for the Creator are based on what the Creator "did", "is" or "is not". If the Creator did not create then nothing would have been done and there would be no "is" or "is not" to attempt to compare to. There would just be the One (or perhaps better title the "All" ) and nothing else.
     
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    #10 Ozarks, Aug 7, 2009
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2009
  12. Tejwant Singh

    Tejwant Singh United States
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    Sadh Sangat,

    Guru Fateh.

    In think we are getting into just semantics by discussing as the title suggests and the question posed by our member K.Venugopal, "Are Creator and Creation the Same in Sikhism?".

    I would like to ask him the basis of his question. ( I am presuming that the poster is a male,please forgive me if I am wrong).

    1.What kind of answers is he looking for?
    2.What does he think about his own question? Does he have an opinion?
    3.How would his opinion change if someone said, no, they are not and gave his/her reasons whatever they may be?

    By this question, in my opinion, we are trying to become the anthropologists on the outside without knowing which sites to dig in order to find the nuggets, where as if one opens SGGS randomly on any page, our ONLY GURU urges us to dig within where the true treasures lie.

    Our ONLY GURU gives us all the tools to become the anthropologists of the selves. Only by digging within, we will be able to discover ourselves and share the goodness which has been lying inside all of us like some dormant amber and is only re-lit with Shabad Guru.

    And once it is re-lit, the glow on the face of the creation is the proof that The Creator and the creation have become one and the same.

    Tejwant Singh
     
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  13. spnadmin

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    Ajit Flora ji

    What a beautiful thing to say: The Dance exist only because of Dancer. :wah::wah::wah:
     
  14. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    surajcap ji

    I have just removed your previous post out of this thread. It is a post full of links that are not connected to the main topic of the thread. It is important to explain the relevance of a link and give a short synopsis when you post a link -- otherwise the message you are sending is lost.

    Also most of those links were not connected to the main topic of the thread. It would be a good idea for you to try to apply those links by opening up discussions about each of them.

    If you need help doing this we will be glad to show you how to do it.
    Narayanjot Kaur
     
  15. danielle k

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    I'm interested in exploring this concept of duality. By that do we mean that we should go beyond "is" and "is not"? Beyond Self and Other?

    Would appreciate your thoughts!
     
  16. Tejwant Singh

    Tejwant Singh United States
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    Danielle ji,

    Guru Fateh.

    First of all, welcome to the forum which helps all of us open our minds. It has helped me for sure.

    Could you please elaborate in your own words what you mean by "is " and "is not". You may quote Gurbani for help if you like but I would urge you to express the verses in your own words and what message you get from them to put your point across.

    Hope to learn from you.


    Thanks and regards

    Tejwant Singh
     
  17. simpy

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    Panna# 1350

    khaalik khalak khalak meh khaalik poor rehio srab thaanee ..........
     
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  18. spnadmin

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    I think we need the entire shabad ji

    ਪ੍ਰਭਾਤੀ ॥
    prabhaathee ||
    Prabhaatee:

    ਅਵਲਿ ਅਲਹ ਨੂਰੁ ਉਪਾਇਆ ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਕੇ ਸਭ ਬੰਦੇ ॥
    aval aleh noor oupaaeiaa kudharath kae sabh bandhae ||
    First, Allah created the Light; then, by His Creative Power, He made all mortal beings.

    ਏਕ ਨੂਰ ਤੇ ਸਭੁ ਜਗੁ ਉਪਜਿਆ ਕਉਨ ਭਲੇ ਕੋ ਮੰਦੇ ॥੧॥
    eaek noor thae sabh jag oupajiaa koun bhalae ko mandhae ||1||
    From the One Light, the entire universe welled up. So who is good, and who is bad? ||1||

    ਲੋਗਾ ਭਰਮਿ ਨ ਭੂਲਹੁ ਭਾਈ ॥
    logaa bharam n bhoolahu bhaaee ||
    O people, O Siblings of Destiny, do not wander deluded by doubt.

    ਖਾਲਿਕੁ ਖਲਕ ਖਲਕ ਮਹਿ ਖਾਲਿਕੁ ਪੂਰਿ ਰਹਿਓ ਸ੍ਰਬ ਠਾਂਈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
    khaalik khalak khalak mehi khaalik poor rehiou srab thaanee ||1|| rehaao ||
    The Creation is in the Creator, and the Creator is in the Creation, totally pervading and permeating all places. ||1||Pause||

    ਮਾਟੀ ਏਕ ਅਨੇਕ ਭਾਂਤਿ ਕਰਿ ਸਾਜੀ ਸਾਜਨਹਾਰੈ ॥
    maattee eaek anaek bhaanth kar saajee saajanehaarai ||
    The clay is the same, but the Fashioner has fashioned it in various ways.

    ਨਾ ਕਛੁ ਪੋਚ ਮਾਟੀ ਕੇ ਭਾਂਡੇ ਨਾ ਕਛੁ ਪੋਚ ਕੁੰਭਾਰੈ ॥੨॥
    naa kashh poch maattee kae bhaanddae naa kashh poch kunbhaarai ||2||
    There is nothing wrong with the pot of clay - there is nothing wrong with the Potter. ||2||

    ਸਭ ਮਹਿ ਸਚਾ ਏਕੋ ਸੋਈ ਤਿਸ ਕਾ ਕੀਆ ਸਭੁ ਕਛੁ ਹੋਈ ॥
    sabh mehi sachaa eaeko soee this kaa keeaa sabh kashh hoee ||
    The One True Lord abides in all; by His making, everything is made.

    ਹੁਕਮੁ ਪਛਾਨੈ ਸੁ ਏਕੋ ਜਾਨੈ ਬੰਦਾ ਕਹੀਐ ਸੋਈ ॥੩॥
    hukam pashhaanai s eaeko jaanai bandhaa keheeai soee ||3||
    Whoever realizes the Hukam of His Command, knows the One Lord. He alone is said to be the Lord's slave. ||3||

    ਅਲਹੁ ਅਲਖੁ ਨ ਜਾਈ ਲਖਿਆ ਗੁਰਿ ਗੁੜੁ ਦੀਨਾ ਮੀਠਾ ॥
    alahu alakh n jaaee lakhiaa gur gurr dheenaa meethaa ||
    The Lord Allah is Unseen; He cannot be seen. The Guru has blessed me with this sweet molasses.

    ਕਹਿ ਕਬੀਰ ਮੇਰੀ ਸੰਕਾ ਨਾਸੀ ਸਰਬ ਨਿਰੰਜਨੁ ਡੀਠਾ ॥੪॥੩॥
    kehi kabeer maeree sankaa naasee sarab niranjan ddeethaa ||4||3||
    Says Kabeer, my anxiety and fear have been taken away; I see the Immaculate Lord pervading everywhere. ||4||3|

    Seems I forgot my forum duties to remind. The shabad is from Sant Kabir ji
     
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  19. simpy

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    Beautiful... Thanks a lot Narayanjot Ji
     
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  20. Satyaban

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    I have had conversations about this many times and apparently what comes so naturally to me is not easily grasp by others. It comes down to dualism and non-dualism doesn't it and so much more springs from it like the world of opposites, love -hate, good -bad, right-wrong well I think you get the idea.
    Please Tejwant ji don't ask me to define my terms.:)

    Always peace
    Satyaban
     
  21. BhagatSingh

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    Sangat Ji
    What is the message of this shabad?
     
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