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Anand Sahib - what does Guru Amar Das mean by 'Gurdwara'

Discussion in 'Gurmat Vichaar' started by Ishna, Dec 12, 2011.

  1. Ishna

    Ishna
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    Reading Anand Sahib tonight and pondered on the following:

    ਜਿਉ ਤੂ ਚਲਾਇਹਿ ਤਿਵ ਚਲਹ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਹੋਰੁ ਕਿਆ ਜਾਣਾ ਗੁਣ ਤੇਰੇ
    जिउ तू चलाइहि तिव चलह सुआमी होरु किआ जाणा गुण तेरे ॥
    Ji▫o ṯū cẖalā▫ihi ṯiv cẖalah su▫āmī hor ki▫ā jāṇā guṇ ṯere.
    As You make me walk, so do I walk, O my Lord and Master; what else do I know of Your Glorious Virtues?

    ਜਿਵ ਤੂ ਚਲਾਇਹਿ ਤਿਵੈ ਚਲਹ ਜਿਨਾ ਮਾਰਗਿ ਪਾਵਹੇ
    जिव तू चलाइहि तिवै चलह जिना मारगि पावहे ॥
    Jiv ṯū cẖalā▫ihi ṯivai cẖalah jinā mārag pāvhe.
    As You cause them to walk, they walk - You have placed them on the Path.

    ਕਰਿ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਜਿਨ ਨਾਮਿ ਲਾਇਹਿ ਸਿ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਸਦਾ ਧਿਆਵਹੇ
    करि किरपा जिन नामि लाइहि सि हरि हरि सदा धिआवहे ॥
    Kar kirpā jin nām lā▫ihi sė har har saḏā ḏẖi▫āvhe.
    In Your Mercy, You attach them to the Naam; they meditate forever on the Lord, Har, Har.

    ਜਿਸ ਨੋ ਕਥਾ ਸੁਣਾਇਹਿ ਆਪਣੀ ਸਿ ਗੁਰਦੁਆਰੈ ਸੁਖੁ ਪਾਵਹੇ
    जिस नो कथा सुणाइहि आपणी सि गुरदुआरै सुखु पावहे ॥
    Jis no kathā suṇā▫ihi āpṇī sė gurḏu▫ārai sukẖ pāvhe.
    Those whom You cause to listen to Your sermon, find peace in the Gurdwara, the Guru's Gate.

    ਕਹੈ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਸਚੇ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਜਿਉ ਭਾਵੈ ਤਿਵੈ ਚਲਾਵਹੇ ॥੧੫॥
    कहै नानकु सचे साहिब जिउ भावै तिवै चलावहे ॥१५॥
    Kahai Nānak sacẖe sāhib ji▫o bẖāvai ṯivai cẖalāvahe. ||15||
    Says Guru Nanak, O my True Lord and Master, you make us walk according to Your Will. ||15||

    If Sikh places of worship were called dharamsalas until Guru Arjun Dev Ji, what is Guru Amar Das Ji talking about when he mentions the Gurdwara?

    Is it actually that inner place of contemplation where one meets the Guru?

    Or is it something else?

    :sippingcoffee:
     
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    #1 Ishna, Dec 12, 2011
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2011
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  3. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    Dharamsaal...was the BEFORE..GURU-KAAL....when GURU Nank ji sahib started the GURU-SIKH relationship as the WAY of GURMATT..WAY to meet the CREATOR....Dharamsaal was a place of worship....a COMMON PLACE where ALL were accepted..( UNLIKE the Mandir/Mosque which were for specific and even the mandirs were for special CASTES ONLY...)....
    GURU NANAK JI sahib began the Daily KIRTAN/KATHA/VICHAAR of SHABAD....this was continued by Guru Angad Ji sahib...and by the time of Guru Amardass Ji...this began to be established form of worship...the GURU-SIKH norm...GURU-DWAAR..the GATE through which the SIKH needs to pass in order to begin his journey towrads the CREATOR. This is what Guru Amardass Ji means.
    BUT TODAY..in the present context..the GURU-DWAAR is NOT a place to..."journey towards the Creator.."...its more of a DESERTED Railway Station...where people come to socilaise, show their faces in return of others having shown THEIR Faces at their programmes...have a fun day..eat parsaad, langgar, etc, pack some for the late night supper back home...the "TRAINS" dont run naymore..pictures of long past famous "engines" are on the walls, the ragis sing..and everyone waits for the bells to toll and DISMISS..until we meet again...we have even RENAMED the GURUDWAAR from GATE to GURUGHAR..HOUSE of the GURU....where the Guru lives....and where its not "nice" to lie..steal..cheat..etc etc (for MOST not all )..BUT once OFF the premises of the Gurus house and (out of His sight) its ok to drink and be merry, chew on drumsticks and beefburgers, womanise, steal, cheat..whatever...The MANDIR is the Hosue of the IDOL..the GURUGHAR is the house of the GURU....same thing...the GURU is installed in His Hosue..sits there..waiting for us to matha tek..and depart...is it nay wonder so few SIKHS are getting anywhere...except hang around the station....
     
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  4. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
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    So surely the best Gurudwara is in our heads, where Guruji is there sitting all the time

    Gyaniji, the way you often talk about Gurudwaras makes them sound like the last place where a Sikh could find the Creator.

    I have some questions on the matter

    My defination of a Sikh, is a person who wishes to tune themself to the frequency of the Creator in a manner as set out in the SRM. To merely follow the rules of the SRM without the desire of being in tune strikes me as slightly pointless, but I suppose no more pointless than buying a Jeep and using it solely to drive to work and back, I wonder out of the many many Sikhs in the world, how many are interested in this 'being in tune'?

    Of those that are interested, how many will stop a fellow Sikh and check his actions if they are Vedic, ritualistic or social Sikhi? or is it easier to stay silent, for the record, I stay silent, I have been shouted down too many times, and being 'mona' does not do much for a mans credibility...

    Who are worse, those that behave as they are at Gurudwara, watching the clock, commenting on langar, having a fun day out and socialising, or those that make a special effort to be 'good' in front of Guruji, and then go back to being themselves as soon as they get in the car to go home?

    and now the million dollar question, is it just me, or does anyone else get the impression that those who frequent the deras and babas seem to have much more of a desire for this connection, albeit they are tuning into someone elses Walkie Talkie rather than the radio, but they seem better 'sikhs' than the ones you may find in your local provincial Gurudwara who see it as a chore, I wonder what can be done to remedy this?
     
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  5. Tejwant Singh

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    Harry ji,

    Guru Fateh.

    Exactly.

    Once we open our Mann's door towards the Guru, then we become the walking, talking, sleeping, working, doing Seva etc. etc. Gurdwaras. In other words there are about 25 million Gurdwaras walking on this Earth but sadly many of them have their doors padlocked. An ignorant like me can not even able to knock at the door to find someone inside who can share the Gurparsad with me.

    Tejwant Singh
     
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  6. Tejwant Singh

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    Ishna ji,

    Guru Fateh.

    You write:

    Dharamsalas were never the places of worship per se but the places for interaction with anyone and everyone. Guru Nanak started Sikhi with pragmatism in mind to get rid of the dogmas and the mechanical rituals. That is why many used to come to him to challenge his thought process and he welcomed all, from any hue,creed, faith, class or castes.

    Regards

    Tejwant Singh
     
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  7. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    Tejwant Ji..thanks for the explanation. If I may add...a "Dharamsaal" was the Indian verison of the American MOTEL....with some "dharama" thrown in ..instead of the cold CASH/credit Card thingy at the Motel !! A DS was a place a weary outstation traveller could get a decent bed and bedding..maybe even a meal...in the Village it was a common place to hold "ceremonies"....like Janj House/marriage ceremony, important meetings of villagers etc etc. Essentially a sort of Village Hall meeting place cum everything else...Today some villages still have the DHARAMSAAL ( NON SECTARIAN) but most functions are now held in SCHOOL buildings and the traditions of Janj etc have dwindled as almost no janj arrives days earlier as before...and travellers prefer to stay in better paid accomodation anyway...(When BADAL goes on Village Visits called Sangat darshan..he commandeers the entire SCHOOL which is then remodelled into security rooms, fully airconditioned rooms, meeting rooms etc while the poor school kids are left to study under the trees !! a Fine example of A-DHARAMSAAL behaviour !!)

    When Guru nanak Ji came on the scene, it was His dream that there should be a GHAR GHAR ANDER DHARAMSAAL.....EACH SIKH HOUSEHOLD should be transformed into a real "Dharamsaal" where a traveller could get a warm welcome, a bed and bedding, a nice hot meal..and all the comforts a SIKH could provide as SEWA. Essentially that EACH SIKH Household should PRACTISE GURMATT on a Daily a nd continous basis. This is why a SIKH is encouraged to WAAND CHHAKO...we are supposed to stand at our doorway and ANNOUNCE..GURU ka Langgar Tyaar hai..Lorrwaand chhako ji...Food is ready..any needy person is most welcome to share with us !! BUT this is hardly the norm today becasue we keep Large breed Rottewillers at the gate to "eat" the needy !! As Sikhs got wealthier..the Dogs got larger and the gates got HIGHER.

    Gurbani mentions that HE resides...inside US...and the place to look for is WITHIN...Farid Ji says LOOK UNDER YOR COLLAR GIREEBAAN meh dekh....and THIS HUMAN BODY is indeed the REAL HARMANDIR that Guru Amardass Ji mentions..Harmandir meaning ABODE of the CREATOR...so He really is resident inside US..all we need to do is LOOK WITHIN...

    Harry Ji...it doesnt matter to me that you are mona...you have a good grasp of what the Guur really intends us to grasp..so write away....judgement is up to HIM...who knows what tomorrow holds...a Mona today may be a Amona tomorrow..lol ( Forgive me for adapting Punjabi Grammar to English...in Punjabi Grammar attaching an A to a word makes the meaning OPPOSITE to what it means originally....so Amona means keshadharee !! Attaching KU also makes the meaning chnage..a SANT caught with his chola down ( UP really ) would be a KUsant !! Share the Gurparsaad as always...
     
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  8. Ambarsaria

    Ambarsaria Canada
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    Tejwant Singh ji I challenge you to name even one such at spn
    lollollollol lol
    mundahugmundahugmundahugmundahugmundahug

    Just a crude joke, I am little tired!

    Sat Sri Akal.

    PS: Please don't name. Everyone offers what they want to, who knows anyone's reasons not to!
     
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  9. Harry Haller

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    Gyaniji,

    Many thanks for your validation, I view being mona in the same way I view a lion without a good shaggy mane, the only difference is a lion is blessed with knowing how to be a lion, whereas I have to study and practice. I have every confidence I will once again feel the flakes of fixo on my chest, and the smell of starch from my head, but this time round it will be a pleasure and a blessing, not an inconvenience
     
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  10. japjisahib04

    japjisahib04 Kuwait
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    Some time I wonder why Guru sahib has entered 'veda' this pankti in Guru Granth Sahib, 'veda mai naam uttam' SGGS.919. Were Guru Ram dass follower of Veds when enough gurbani by Guru Nanak and Angat ji had already been written? To whom Guru sahib is referring this pankti in anand Sahib? Are they referring this pankti to themselves or to the followers of Vedas? It is very famous among followers of Vedas to repeat Ram Ram then why Guru Sahib is reminding them.
    Best regards
    Mohinder Singh Sahni
     
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  11. Ambarsaria

    Ambarsaria Canada
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    Veer japjisahib04 ji, thanks for your post. Let us review the sabad in complete below and I have given my understanding in blue outside of quotes,

    Dirty in thought, appearance of pure

    Appearance of pure, but impure of thought are like losing life as a gamble

    Such have this major illness, death been forgotten from the mind
    Vedas contain great wisdom, not listened, wandering like lost souls
    Guru Nanak says, those who forsake truth, attached to worldly possessions, such lost so life in gambling


    Veer ji if our generation is starting to not understand Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji in context, I cannot visualize what will become of Sikhism in Centuries to come.

    Humbly submitted and all errors are mine.

    Sat Sri Akal.
     
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    #10 Ambarsaria, Dec 14, 2011
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2011
  12. Tejwant Singh

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    My 2 cent worth.

    Here Guru Sahib who was a devout Hindu till he met Guru Angad is talking to his ex- ilk and is showing them their hypocricy. After all, Hinduism was still very prevalent and many Hindu Scholars and honchos who used their power to suppress their fellow Hindus with the help of caste system divisions were being exposed by being undressed from inside out. In other words the Hindu power was being diluted by the Mughals and with the expansion of the idea-based Sikhi. The under class/caste people were challenging the power of the snakes of Hinduism

    Allow me to add my thoughts to the Shabad.

    ਜੀਅਹੁ ਮੈਲੇ ਬਾਹਰਹੁ ਨਿਰਮਲ
    जीअहु मैले बाहरहु निरमल ॥
    Jī▫ahu maile bāhrahu nirmal.
    Inwardly polluted, and outwardly pure.
    ਅੰਦਰੋਂ ਗੰਦੇ ਅਤੇ ਬਾਹਰਵਾਰੋਂ ਸ਼ੁੰਧ।
    ਜੀਅਹੁ = ਜਿੰਦ ਤੋਂ, ਮਨ ਵਿਚੋਂ।
    (ਨਿਰੇ ਬਾਹਰੋਂ ਧਾਰਮਿਕ ਦਿੱਸਦੇ ਕਰਮ ਕਰਨ ਵਾਲੇ ਬੰਦੇ) ਮਨ ਵਿਚ (ਵਿਕਾਰਾਂ ਨਾਲ) ਮੈਲੇ ਰਹਿੰਦੇ ਹਨ ਤੇ ਸਿਰਫ਼ ਵੇਖਣ ਨੂੰ ਹੀ ਪਵਿਤ੍ਰ ਜਾਪਦੇ ਹਨ।
    Appearance of the Lotus while still dwelling in the muck.

    ਬਾਹਰਹੁ ਨਿਰਮਲ ਜੀਅਹੁ ਮੈਲੇ ਤਿਨੀ ਜਨਮੁ ਜੂਐ ਹਾਰਿਆ
    बाहरहु निरमल जीअहु त मैले तिनी जनमु जूऐ हारिआ ॥
    Bāhrahu nirmal jī▫ahu ṯa maile ṯinī janam jū▫ai hāri▫ā.
    Those who are outwardly pure and yet polluted within, lose their lives in the gamble.
    ਜੋ ਬਾਹਰਵਾਰੋਂ ਪਵਿੱਤਰ ਅਤੇ ਅੰਦਰੋਂ ਪਲੀਤ ਹਨ, ਉਹ ਆਪਣੇ ਜੀਵਨ ਨੂੰ ਜੂਏ ਵਿੱਚ ਹਾਰ ਦਿੰਦੇ ਹਨ।
    ਤਿਨੀ = ਉਹਨਾਂ ਬੰਦਿਆਂ ਨੇ।
    ਤੇ, ਜੇਹੜੇ ਬੰਦੇ ਬਾਹਰੋਂ ਪਵਿਤ੍ਰ ਦਿੱਸਣ, ਉਂਞ ਮਨੋਂ ਵਿਕਾਰੀ ਹੋਣ, ਉਹਨਾਂ ਨੇ ਆਪਣਾ ਜੀਵਨਇਉਂ ਵਿਅਰਥ ਗਵਾ ਲਿਆ ਸਮਝੋ ਜਿਵੇਂ ਕੋਈ ਜੁਆਰੀਆ ਜੂਏ ਵਿਚ ਧਨ ਹਾਰ ਆਉਂਦਾ ਹੈ।
    Unless one sprouts like the Lotus from the muck, one remains the muck dweller.

    ਏਹ ਤਿਸਨਾ ਵਡਾ ਰੋਗੁ ਲਗਾ ਮਰਣੁ ਮਨਹੁ ਵਿਸਾਰਿਆ
    एह तिसना वडा रोगु लगा मरणु मनहु विसारिआ ॥
    Ėh ṯisnā vadā rog lagā maraṇ manhu visāri▫ā.
    They contract this terrible disease of desire, and in their minds, they forget about dying.
    ਉਨ੍ਹਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਲਾਲਚ ਦੀ ਇਹ ਭਾਰੀ ਬੀਮਾਰੀ ਚਿੰਮੜ ਜਾਂਦੀ ਹੈ ਅਤੇ ਆਪਣੇ ਚਿੱਤੋਂ ਉਹ ਮੌਤ ਨੂੰ ਭਲਾ ਦਿੱਦੇ ਹਨ।
    ਮਰਣੁ = ਮੌਤ।
    (ਉਹਨਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਅੰਦਰੋ-ਅੰਦਰ) ਮਾਇਆ ਦੀ ਤ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨਾ ਦਾ ਭਾਰਾ ਰੋਗ ਖਾਈ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ, (ਮਾਇਆ ਦੇ ਲਾਲਚ ਵਿਚ) ਮੌਤ ਨੂੰ ਉਹਨਾਂ ਭੁਲਾਇਆ ਹੁੰਦਾ ਹੈ।
    This gluttony of a pretend Lotus becomes the disease one can not get rid of, and because of this one lives for the moment. How? By pretending to be the Lotus while being the muck dweller.

    ਵੇਦਾ ਮਹਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਉਤਮੁ ਸੋ ਸੁਣਹਿ ਨਾਹੀ ਫਿਰਹਿ ਜਿਉ ਬੇਤਾਲਿਆ
    वेदा महि नामु उतमु सो सुणहि नाही फिरहि जिउ बेतालिआ ॥
    veḏā mėh nām uṯam so suṇėh nāhī firėh ji▫o beṯāli▫ā.
    In the Vedas, the ultimate objective is the Naam, the Name of the Lord; but they do not hear this, and they wander around like demons.
    ਵੇਦਾਂ ਅੰਦਰ ਨਾਮ ਪਰਮ ਸ੍ਰੇਸ਼ਟ ਵਸਤੂ ਹੈ। ਉਸ ਨੂੰ ਉਹ ਸੁਣਦੇ ਹੀ ਨਹੀਂ ਅਤੇ ਭੂਤਨਿਆਂ ਵਾਂਗੂੰ ਭਟਕਦੇ ਫਿਰਦੇ ਹਨ।
    ਬੇਤਾਲੇ = ਭੂਤਨੇ, ਤਾਲ ਤੋਂ, ਖੁੰਝੇ ਹੋਏ।
    (ਲੋਕਾਂਦੀਆਂ ਨਜ਼ਰਾਂ ਵਿਚ ਧਾਰਮਿਕ ਦਿੱਸਣ ਵਾਸਤੇ ਉਹ ਆਪਣੇ ਬਾਹਰੋਂ ਧਾਰਮਿਕ ਦਿੱਸਦੇ ਕਰਮਾਂ ਦੀਵਡਿਆਈ ਦੱਸਣ ਲਈ ਵੇਦ ਆਦਿਕ ਧਰਮ-ਪੁਸਤਕਾਂ ਵਿਚੋਂ ਹਵਾਲੇ ਦੇਂਦੇ ਹਨ, ਪਰ) ਵੇਦ ਆਦਿਕਧਰਮ-ਪੁਸਤਕਾਂ ਵਿਚ ਜੋ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦਾ ਨਾਮ ਜਪਣ ਦਾ ਉੱਤਮ ਉਪਦੇਸ਼ ਹੈ ਉਸ ਵਲ ਉਹ ਧਿਆਨ ਨਹੀਂਕਰਦੇ, ਤੇ ਭੂਤਾਂ ਵਾਂਗ ਹੀ ਜਗਤ ਵਿਚ ਵਿਚਰਦੇ ਹਨ (ਜੀਵਨ-ਤਾਲ ਤੋਂ ਖੁੰਝੇ ਰਹਿੰਦੇ ਹਨ)।
    In this verse, Guru Sahib looks straight in their eyes to undress them. These muck dwellers forgot the lessons they are supposed to learn from their holy books, Vedas which contain great wisdom. As they do not learn from them, they are not able to practice them and share them with others, hence live their lives in futility laced with pretentiousness.

    ਕਹੈ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਜਿਨ ਸਚੁ ਤਜਿਆ ਕੂੜੇ ਲਾਗੇ ਤਿਨੀ ਜਨਮੁ ਜੂਐ ਹਾਰਿਆ ੧੯॥
    कहै नानकु जिन सचु तजिआ कूड़े लागे तिनी जनमु जूऐ हारिआ ॥१९॥
    Kahai Nānak jin sacẖ ṯaji▫ā kūṛe lāge ṯinī janam jū▫ai hāri▫ā. ||19||
    Says Guru Nanak, those who forsake Truth and cling to falsehood, lose their lives in the gamble. ||19||
    ਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਆਖਦੇ ਹਨ, ਜੋ ਸੱਚ ਨੂੰ ਛੱਡ ਦਿੰਦੇ ਹਨ ਅਤੇ ਝੂਠ ਨਾਲ ਚਿੰਮੜਦੇ ਹਨ, ਉਹ ਆਪਣੇ ਜੀਵਨ ਨੂੰ ਜੂਏ ਵਿੱਚ ਹਾਰ ਦਿੰਦੇ ਹਨ।
    ਜਿਨ = ਜਿਨ੍ਹਾਂ ਨੇ ॥੧੯॥
    ਨਾਨਕਆਖਦਾ ਹੈ ਕਿ ਜਿਨ੍ਹਾਂ ਨੇ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦਾ ਨਾਮ (-ਸਿਮਰਨ) ਛੱਡਿਆ ਹੋਇਆ ਹੈ, ਤੇ ਜੋ ਮਾਇਆਦੇ ਮੋਹ ਵਿਚ ਫਸੇ ਹੋਏ ਹਨ, ਉਹਨਾਂ ਆਪਣੀ ਜੀਵਨ-ਖੇਡ ਜੂਏ ਵਿਚ ਹਾਰ ਲਈ ਸਮਝੋ ॥੧੯॥
    Guru Nanak says, only the Truth Seekers are the winners. The pretenders- the muck dwellers- are the ones who are the real losers and shall remain so.

    Regards

    Tejwant Singh
     
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    #11 Tejwant Singh, Dec 15, 2011
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2011
  13. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    Sawa lakh se EK larraoan
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    The SIKHS stand at the same crossroads vis a vis the Naam in SGGS....as the HINDUS stood vis a vis the VEDAS during Guru Kaal. TODAY the average SIKH has absolutley NO IDEA what the SGGS says or instructs - simply an object of "veneration" and device to ask the Divine favours. And since GURBANI is Divine and Universal and Timeless..these Paavan Panktees are NOW addressed to those SIKHS same as those Hindus- the GURU speaks the TRUTH..always and at all times...
     
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