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Anand Sahib - 24th Pauri

Discussion in 'Anand Sahib' started by Amarpal, Mar 3, 2005.

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  1. Amarpal

    Amarpal
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    Dear Khalsa Ji,

    Now we have reached the 24th Pauri of anand Sahib. What I understand from it, here through this post, I share with you all.

    1. siqgurU ibnw hor kcI hY bwxI ] satguroo binaa hor kachee hai banee.

    Without the Satguru, the Banee is not ripe (not fit for assimilation).

    My understanding:

    In this sentence Guru Sahib conveys a lot to me.

    Guru is the one who teaches a person. During the lifetime of our Gurus, Guru Sahibs themselves were the Gurus. In my context, Sri Guru Granth Sahib is my Guru. What the term Satguru means in my context, I have to understand.

    My mental deliberations on this issue tell me that the essence of the teachings of my Guru - Sri Guru Granth Sahib - is the Satguru for me. When I fully realise the entire essence of Sri Guru Granth Sahib, then only the Satguru is realised. When the essence has been realised, the Guru leaves and ‘The Sat’ remains.

    With this understanding, I approach to learn the meaning of sentence under study.

    It is clear. Guru Sahib tells me that the Banee is not ripe for assimilation unless it’s essence, the truth, the learning is fully understood and realised in one’s own being. Till I reach that stage, the Banee is Kachee.

    Just see the sentence, it is a combination of word, which has a literal meaning. That is how it will look to any new comer. When we live with it and look for the meaning contained in it, a different picture starts emerging. The sentence ceases to be just a text; it becomes a realisable learning. When I reach this stage of true understanding, the Banee becomes Pakky for me.

    Here you see the way Guru Sahib has conveyed his message. Guru Sahib has used an analogy.

    The Banee was, is and will always remain the same, but transformation is taking place in me. From the literal meaning, I am going beyond, I am realising the deeper meaning. In fact, maturity is dawning on me, the Banee was always there as it is and so it will be. Changes are taking place in me, in my understanding of it, and not in the Banee. Guru Sahib who knew the relative nature of this world has used this element to convey the message to me.

    Till I remain spiritually immature the same Banee remains Kachee (not ripe) for me. When I become spiritually mature, the same Banee becomes Pakky (ripe) for me. This maturity brings with it a new way of looking at the Banee. This is the stage at which the essence, the truth, the element of learning contained in Banee can be realised.

    Banee remains as it is. It is my spiritual evolution, my maturity, my understanding of it, that makes it Kachee or otherwise.

    Wah-e-Guru

    2. bwxI q kcI siqgurU bwJhu hor kcI bwxI ] banee ta kachee satguroo baajhahu hor kachee banee.

    With kachee (not ripe, not fit for assimilation) banee, Satguru is missed, and more kachee banee is created.

    My understanding:

    Guru Sahib cautions me here. Guru Sahib tells me that if my understanding is deficient, then I will miss the essence, the truth, the learning, and the element of ‘Sat’ that is in Banee. This less than complete understanding of the Banee will make me further inadequate to truly understand the Banee.

    In other words, Guru Sahib tells me that I should not ignore the feedbacks that result from every incremental learning. If the feedback is in positive direction resulting from correct understanding, I will evolve; if it is negative direction resulting from inadequate understanding I will degenerate.

    This way Guru Sahib tells me that I should never think that I have realised the Banee. There is always deeper meaning to it. Fresh learning should lead me to review my past spiritual base. This base should be always kept refreshed. This way I should keep renewing myself till the ultimate is realised. After all this is what is meant by spiritual evolution.

    The question that comes to my mind is how do I check if my understanding is correct? How do I evaluate my learning from the Banee?

    The answer comes from my past understanding, which gives me the criterion with respect to which I can validate what I have learnt.

    All the creation has come from the ‘Ek’ (One) i.e. ‘The Sat’. All the dualities that exist in this world are manifestation of this ‘Ek’. I have to move in the direction of this ‘Ek’ i.e. ‘The Sat’. If my learning, which I incorporate into my being is leading me in the direction of this ‘Ek’, i.e. leading me to dissolve the dualities, then they are likely to be correct. If it is creating dualities, it is definitely wrong.

    The logic behind this criterion is clear. The spiritual aim of the birth in human form is to merge with ‘The Sat’. As the dualities dissolve for me, my being tends to move towards ‘Ek’ i.e. ‘The Sat’. When the ‘Sat’ of my Guru, which is the essence of my Guru i.e. the teachings of my Guru (Sri Guru Granth Sahib) are fully realised in my being, in a way, it means that ‘Satguru’ is in me. At this stage all the worldly dualities will stand dissolved and, then the ultimate limit comes. The last remaining duality is dissolved i.e. my being gets dissolved into ‘The Sat’. This is where the ultimate is realised. This is ‘Samadhi’.

    This way Guru Sahib tells me that I have to evolve a lot. At no stage my Ahamkara should appear and have control over me. After all, Gyan Vilas (being proud of one’s knowledge, showing it off and enjoying doing so) is an element of Ahamkara. Humility should be natural to me; it should originate from the depths of my heart and soul.

    Wah-e-Guru.

    3. khdy kcy suxdy kcy kcˆØI AwiK vKwxI ] kahday kachay sunday kachay kacheeN aakh vakhaanee.


    They speak, listen, do and lecture the false understanding.


    My understanding:

    Guru Sahib tells me what happens when the individuals understanding of the Banee is inadequate. The inadequate understanding and its propagation create falsehood and results in differences and dualities.

    I can make out Guru Sahib has in mind. He knows what has been the condition of the major religion of our land? How the spirituality has evaporated from the society he lived in? Base on partial understanding of what is taught by the religion, the society has split into castes, sub castes and sub-sub-caste and so on. The religion, which was supposed to be one, has split into different beliefs (mat), Sampradayas, sects and Varnas.

    Guru Sahib is not leaving things to chance. Guru Sahib is making it explicit for me to understand this fact of social dynamics.

    4. hir hir inq krih rsnw kihAw kCU n jwxI ] har har nit karahi rasnaa kahi-aa kachhoo na jaanee.

    The individual recite ‘Har’ ‘Har’ (the appellation for the God) every day, speaks about the joy of it, but does not understand it.

    My understanding:

    Guru Sahib instructs me on the futility of ritualistic Jaap. Guru Sahib tells me that praising ‘The Sat’ and mechanically doing Jaap every day is meaning less unless one has understood the spiritual meaning in it.

    Guru Sahib this way cautions be about the pitfall.

    5. icqu ijn kw ihir lieAw mwieAw bolin pey rvwxI ] chit jin kaa hir la-i-aa maa-i-aa bolan pa-ay ravaanee.


    The person, whose consciousness is seduced by Maya, is the one who speaks of the ritualistic practices as the way.

    My understanding:

    Guru Sahib in a very forthright way tells me that rituals are not the way for spiritual evolution. People who are under the spell of Maya and cannot see the truth suggest this way. During the lifetime of our Guru Sahibs, a large section of the population of this land followed the ritualistic way for spiritual ends.

    This again is a very prudent caution from my Guru Sahib to protect me from any pitfall.

    6. khY nwnku siqgurU bwJhu hor kcI bwxI ]24] kahai naanak satguroo baajhahu hor kachee banee. ||24||

    Says Nanak, without Satguru any Banee is Kachee (not ripe i.e. not fit for assimilation).

    My understanding:

    Guru Sahib says that without true understanding the Banee becomes false and ceases to be fit for assimilation in one’s being.

    Wah-e-Guru.

    With this I close my post on 24th Pauri of Anand Sahib. Please keep in mind my understanding is in my own context where the Guru for me is Sri Guru Granth Sahib.

    With love and respect for all.



    Amarpal Singh
     
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  3. Archived_member2

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    Satsriakal to all and Amarpal Singh Ji!
    You translated

    1. siqgurU ibnw hor kcI hY bwxI ] satguroo binaa hor kachee hai banee.

    Without the Satguru, the Banee is not ripe (not fit for assimilation).

    May I ask why the word 'hor' is translated as comma (,) here.

    Humbly

    Balbir Singh
     
  4. Amarpal

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    Re: Anand Sahib: 24th Pauri: My understanding

    Dear Balbir Singh Ji,

    Thank you very much for asking the question.



    The line in English, which follows the Gurmukhi text in my post, is not the literal translation, but it is the meaning as understood by me.



    I have not missed the word ‘hor’ in my mental deliberations to understand what Guru Sahib is telling me. It is taken into account in what I have written in 'My understanding' that followed the sentence from Sri Guru Granth Sahib. Though it is not explicit there.



    My mental deliberations on it i.e. the word 'hor', I share with you here.



    The word 'hor' literally means more, additional, it also means other.



    First I take the word 'hor' to mean 'other’ and discuss it here.



    As I understand my Guru Sahibs, they were positive thinkers. They explained to us what 'The Sat' meant to them. They did not indulge in criticising what others have said. Where something was deep rooted among the masses, which was not desirable, they explained it to the masses and persuaded them to move away from those practices or concepts. They recognised pluralities of ways.



    With this perception in me about my Guru Sahibs, it was not possible for me to accept that my Guru Sahib will any time say that 'other Banee are Kachee. That too in such a sweeping way.



    This is the reason why I did not take this meaning (other) for the word 'hor'.



    I accepted the word 'hor' to mean additional or more.



    With this meaning for the word hor, the first sentence of this Pauri conveys that without learning the essence of the teachings of the Banee (Satguru), acquiring more of it, the banee will remain kachee. The same meaning is conveyed in what I had posted. To me this meaning apples to first banee i.e. starting from zero or the additional (hor) Banee. As a result I did not feel the need to elaborate on this word ‘hor’.



    In other words I am saying that whether I elaborate or not on the word ‘hor’ used in the first sentence of the Banee, my understanding remains the same.


    However, in case I write a book in future, I will include the elaboration of the word 'hor' in it.

    Once again I thank you for your post.


    With love and respect for all.



    Amarpal Singh
     
  5. Archived_member2

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    Re: Anand Sahib: 24th Pauri: My understanding

    Satsriakal to all and Amarpal Singh Ji!
    Guru Ji sang anand Sahib in ecstasy. Dhur ki Banee through our Guru became elevated Banee in melodious sounds. Each word of the verse builds the continuous flow of Truth.

    I am surprised to read your arguments and this statement "As a result I did not feel the need to elaborate on this word 'hor'."

    In my view, this post has many contradictions.

    You wrote "As I understand my Guru Sahibs, they were positive thinkers. They explained to us what 'The Sat' meant to them."
    Firstly our Gurus never tried to explain others what 'The Sat' meant to them.
    They just lived it and sang it.
    Secondly they realized Truth in all. Explaining Truth, which meant to them alone, indicates the incomplete Truth.

    Then you wrote "They did not indulge in criticising what others have said."
    May I ask what is that all what they sang about Manmukh, Maya, Duality etc.?
    Also all, which sounds as critique to many, is in reality the flow of Truth that realized as God's Will through our Gurus.
    Surely they criticized but as God's Hukum.

    Your next sentence is "Where something was deep rooted among the masses, which was not desirable, they explained it to the masses and persuaded them to move away from those practices or concepts."
    Our Gurus never persuaded anyone to move away from any practices or concepts. Please provide one such statement from Gurbani. I will be thankful.
    Our Gurus only suggested doing NAM Simran and they knew that all Mayan practices will dissolve with that.
    Our Gurus never tried to teach either moral science.
    Inner moral (Dharma) in an individual germinates naturally by Simran.

    Just after this you wrote "They recognised pluralities of ways."
    Well, when our Gurus recognized Truth in pluralities of ways, why they should have persuaded people to move away from those.

    You explained further that "without learning the essence of the teachings of the Banee (Satguru), acquiring more of it, the banee will remain kachee."
    Sat Guru here, in my view, does not mean 'learning the essence of the teachings of the Banee', as you wrote.

    --------------------------

    Please ponder over these references.

    Gurbani says "har jee-o saachaa saachee banee sabad milaavaa ho-ee." SGGS page 32
    God is Truth true Banee occurs by converging with Shabad.

    Also "sach banee sach sabad hai jaa sach Dharay pi-aar." SGGS page 33
    True Banee is True Shabad where Truth bears Love.

    Without True Shabad, which is received from Sat Guru, all spoken, heard or described is 'Kachee Banee'. It intensifies further without Sat Guru.

    This is the 24th Pauri of Anand Sahib.

    Humbly


    Balbir Singh
     
  6. Amarpal

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    Re: Anand Sahib: 24th Pauri: My understanding

    Dear Balbir Singh Ji,



    Answering your post takes long time and I get logged out from the site again and again. At least this time I will answer to the questions you have raised and ask you some for me to learn.



    i) Guru Ji sang Anand Sahib in ecstasy.



    I have no way to find out in what state my Guru Sahib was. I can only say from his words that Guru Sahib was in an elated state.



    Here I wish to learn from you what does the word ‘ecstasy’ means in the context of spirituality. How can one know that she or he is in that stage? I admit I have not reached that state.


    ii) I am surprised to read your arguments and this statement "As a result I did not feel the need to elaborate on this word 'hor'."




    Yes it is so. I am not doing things mechanically. If a word does not change my understanding I do not spend time on it. There is nothing to be surprised about. That is my way.

    iii) Firstly our Gurus never tried to explain others what 'The Sat' meant to them.
    They just lived it and sang it.




    I hold the opinion that in the ‘Mool Mantra’ this explanation is given.



    iv) May I ask what is that all what they sang about Manmukh, Maya, Duality etc.?



    I have not come across the word Manmukh in any other scripture of the land except Gurbani. Other terms by themselves do not mean criticism. Explaining the process (Maya) and the falseness (Dualities) that they lead one into is not a criticism, this is the way positive thinkers, which our Guru Sahibs were do. I do not take them to be criticism. This is my opinion.



    v) Secondly they realized Truth in all.


    I think there is an element of learning for me in the statement you have made. What does it mean?

    vi) Where something was deep rooted among the masses, which was not desirable, they explained it to the masses and persuaded them to move away from those practices or concepts.




    Yes, through proper explanation they persuaded other to give up those practices or concept. They never asked them to leave their faith. They only asked them to get rid of any falsehood that might have crept in.



    vii) They recognised pluralities of ways



    Yes, this is evident from the fact that they never asked any one to change her or his religion.



    With this I close.



    With love and respect for all.



    Amarpal Singh
     
  7. Neutral Singh

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    Re: Anand Sahib: 24th Pauri: My understanding

    ** Off-Topic **

    Please accept my humble apologies, Amarpal Ji. We are in the process of introducing a new facility for memebrs, which will allow you to periodically save your precious work as "work in process draft", and then you will be able to save your work from time to time until your think the draft is ready for posting. Hopefully, this facility should up today itself. I will keep you updated. Thanks for the feedback.

    Best Regards
     
  8. Amarpal

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    Re: Anand Sahib: 24th Pauri: My understanding

    Dear Aman Ji,

    Thank you very much. You as taking care of us so well. May God bless you and keep you in 'Chardian Kalan'.

    With love and respect for all.

    Amarpal Singh
     
  9. kaur-1

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    Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru ji Ki Fateh,

    Amarpal Singh ji, So what you are saying is for a beginner ,like myself for e.g., all guru ki bani is kachee.

    So how and what should I do to fully assimilate it.?

    Is one of the method to "JAAP" (ie to contemplate and meditate) on gurbani everyday as stated after Mool mantar?
     
  10. Amarpal

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    Dear Khalsa Ji,

    I hold the opinion that one should do 'Jaap' in reflective frame of mind. Rest is Gurparsadi, 'The Sat' takes one forward.

    With love and respect for all.

    Amarpal Singh
     
  11. pk70

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    Sangat Jio
    Hope no one will mind my disagreement with Amarpal ji who has totally distorted the Guru Message
    !
    ( quote)My understanding:
    In this sentence Guru Sahib conveys a lot to me.
    Guru is the one who teaches a person. During the lifetime of our Gurus, Guru Sahibs themselves were the Gurus. In my context, Sri Guru Granth Sahib is my Guru. What the term Satguru means in my context, I have to understand.
    My mental deliberations on this issue tell me that the essence of the teachings of my Guru - Sri Guru Granth Sahib - is the Satguru for me. When I fully realise the entire essence of Sri Guru Granth Sahib, then only the Satguru is realised. When the essence has been realised, the Guru leaves and ‘The Sat’ remains.With this understanding, I approach to learn the meaning of sentence under study. It is clear. Guru Sahib tells me that the Banee is not ripe for assimilation unless it’s essence, the truth, the learning is fully understood and realised in one’s own being. Till I reach that stage, the Banee is Kachee. ( quote from Amarpal ji)
    Respected Amarpal ji, ripe fruit is ripe, it depends who eats it, if the person who eats it doesn’t understand the taste (and enjoy), it does not mean, fruit is not ripe. Humbly I urge you not use these words like” Kachee” for Bani of Guru.
    Just see the sentence, it is a combination of word, which has a literal meaning. That is how it will look to any new comer. When we live with it and look for the meaning contained in it, a different picture starts emerging. The sentence ceases to be just a text; it becomes a realisable learning. When I reach this stage of true understanding, the Banee becomes Pakky for me.
    Absolutely not, even without some ones understanding it is still “PAKKEE”, problem lies with the person who fails to understand it. Guru defines it very well. Sir, had you kept in mind what Guru ji says in Pouri 23, you wouldn’t have come to this imaginative conclusion.( I shall bring that too)
    Here you see the way Guru Sahib has conveyed his message. Guru Sahib has used an analogy.
    Kindly explain the analogy as per your understanding.
    The Banee was, is and will always remain the same,
    Well said. That is a fact, only change occurs in readers understanding …..
    but transformation is taking place in me. From the literal meaning, I am going beyond, I am realising the deeper meaning. In fact, maturity is dawning on me, the Banee was always there as it is and so it will be. Changes are taking place in me, in my understanding of it, and not in the Banee. Guru Sahib who knew the relative nature of this world has used this element to convey the message to me.
    You are admitting here that Bani is the same but surprisingly your understanding now seems making Bani Pakkee from Kachee that is the fall no one should take either by your illusion or other limitations.
    Till I remain spiritually immature the same Banee remains Kachee (not ripe) for me.
    No, actually Bani is the same, absolutely the same; however, your understanding is in change- process, it could be wrong but not the Bani because when you honor Bani of Guru as “ Kachee” its implication goes to judging Bani of Guru( you already admitted)
    When I become spiritually mature, the same Banee becomes Pakky (ripe) for me
    No, it was “Pakkee”, again it is only your change in your understanding that is affected.
    . This maturity brings with it a new way of looking at the Banee. This is the stage at which the essence, the truth, the element of learning contained in Banee can be realised.
    Let’s see if that is proved true. Here are your words:
    Banee remains as it is. It is my spiritual evolution, my maturity, my understanding of it, that makes it Kachee or otherwise.
    Amarpal jio, again, Bani is not in change, it cannot have opposite adjectives just because of one person’s opinion. Lets revisit it
    2. bwxI q kcI siqgurU bwJhu hor kcI bwxI ] banee ta kachee satguroo baajhahu hor kachee banee.
    With kachee (not ripe, not fit for assimilation) banee, Satguru is missed, and more kachee banee is created.
    Amarpal ji, here, there is no indication of “Guru being missed” in Guru Vaak, If “Bajhon” you use strictly as” without” then what will you do with the word” HOR”? Some one asked you about your omission of word” HOR”, this is your assumed answer to that question.

    I have not missed the word ‘hor’ in my mental deliberations to understand what Guru Sahib is telling me. It is taken into account in what I have written in 'My understanding' that followed the sentence from Sri Guru Granth Sahib. Though it is not explicit there
    .( REALLY !!!!!!)
    My mental deliberations on it i.e. the word 'hor', I share with you here.
    The word 'hor' literally means more, additional, it also means other.
    First I take the word 'hor' to mean 'other’ and discuss it here.
    As I understand my Guru Sahibs, they were positive thinkers. They explained to us what 'The Sat' meant to them. They did not indulge in criticising what others have said. Where something was deep rooted among the masses, which was not desirable, they explained it to the masses and persuaded them to move away from those practices or concepts. They recognised pluralities of ways.

    Why I have called your answer assumed one because it is imagined. Guru ji does not criticize others who are truthful at all. Let’s see how. Lets us put the Guru Vaak here.
    . siqgurU ibnw hor kcI hY bwxI ] satguroo binaa hor kachee hai banee.
    While interpreting this Guru Vaak, Amarpal ji, you cannot ignore what Guru ji has said in Pouri 23. Let us see that first.
    ਆਵਹੁ ਸਿਖ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਕੇ ਪਿਆਰਿਹੋ ਗਾਵਹੁ ਸਚੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਗਾਵਹੁ ਗੁਰੂ ਕੇਰੀ ਬਾਣੀਆ ਸਿਰਿ ਬਾਣੀ ਜਿਨ ਕਉ ਨਦਰਿ ਕਰਮੁ ਹੋਵੈ ਹਿਰਦੈ ਤਿਨਾ ਸਮਾਣੀ ਪੀਵਹੁ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਸਦਾ ਰਹਹੁ ਹਰਿ ਰੰਗਿ ਜਪਿਹੁ ਸਾਰਿਗਪਾਣੀ ਕਹੈ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਸਦਾ ਗਾਵਹੁ ਏਹ ਸਚੀ ਬਾਣੀ ੨੩
    Come ye the beloved disciples of the True Guru and sing the True hymns of the Guru.Sing ye the word of the Guru. which word is the most sublime of all the words.Gurbani enters the mind of those, on whom the Lord casts His merciful glance. Quaff thou Nectar, ever abide in God's love and reflect on God, the Earth-Sustainer. Says Nanak, ever hymn thou, this true word of the Guru.(Tr By Manmohan Singh ji)
    Which bani is “ SACHEE”? By whom? Answer is by SatGuru
    Kindly note down the words” Baneea sir Bani” ( the most sublime of all said words), EH SACHEE BANI( This true word{ of Guru})
    Guru has made clear here who’s Bani is sublime, does Guru criticize others? No, actually Guru ji clarifies in the next Pouri# 24, where you take imaginative fall. Guru ji uses the word” Satguru” instead of just using” Guru” Why? Guru ji doesn’t want the followers should get confused with Bani by others (so called Gurus who lie about Akaal). Where is criticism? Guru ji takes on only those who lie about the” Akaal”, here it is” ਕਹਦੇ ਕਚੇ ਸੁਣਦੇ ਕਚੇ .ਕਚੀ ਆਖਿ ਵਖਾਣੀ . False are the utterers, false the hearers, false the reciters and false their authors.( How could you ignore this Guru Vaak?”)
    Guru ji does not want his followers to follow those people. Is it a criticism? That is the other reason, Guru ji chooses the word” Satgurtu” for Guru.
    Now let’s talk about “Satguru” meaning in Guru’s own words where it is used in context of “Guru”
    ਸਲੋਕ ਮਃ ਘਰ ਮਹਿ ਘਰੁ ਦੇਖਾਇ ਦੇਇ ਸੋ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਸੁਜਾਣੁ He, who shows the Lord's abode within the man's mind home; He alone is the wise and True Guru.
    What Guru ji stressing is very clear. If it is a Bani of “ True Guru” as per Guru ji’s definition, it is” Pakki” but if it is by a guy who calls himself Guru but actually talks false things about “Akaal to grind his own agenda”, it is “ Kachee” That was another reason Guru ji addresses those false ones who mislead others in concept of “Akaal”( ਕਹਦੇ ਕਚੇ ਸੁਣਦੇ ਕਚੇ .ਕਚੀ ਆਖਿ ਵਖਾਣੀ . False are the utterers, false the hearers, false the reciters and false their authors.)
    Nothing is wrong to contemplate on Guru Shabad and try to decipher meaning but where Guru ji himself clears the meaning, guessing or imagining is very dangerous trend. Guru ji doesn’t criticize any one as you think or understand. Guru ji clearly expresses in Pouri 23 about whom he addresses it. So the Bani of True Guru( Now Sree Guru Granth Sahib Ji) is” Pakkee” only” Kachee” can be some one’s understanding and Bani of those who are not able to show” SATT” within and lie about HIM.

    With Regards
    G Singh
     

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