Welcome to SPN

Register and Join the most happening forum of Sikh community & intellectuals from around the world.

Sign Up Now!

An Evil God

Discussion in 'Interfaith Dialogues' started by Sinister, Apr 19, 2009.

Tags:
  1. Sinister

    Sinister
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    May 4, 2006
    Messages:
    907
    Likes Received:
    394
    The Riddle of Epicurus

    Is god willing to prevent evil but not able
    then he is not omnipotent.

    Is he able but not willing
    then he is malevolent.

    Is god both able and willing
    then whence cometh evil?

    Is he neither able nor willing
    then why call him god?

    Epicurus 341 - 270 bce
     
    • Like Like x 2
  2. Loading...

    Similar Threads Forum Date
    Controversial God's Almightyness Versus Evil Hard Talk May 5, 2012
    Is God Evil? Ramblings of an Insomniac Sikh Sikhi Sikhism Jul 22, 2011
    1984 Institutionalizing Evil History of Sikhism Jun 3, 2016
    Movies Ashdoc's movie review---Deliver us from evil Theatre, Movies & Cinema Sep 29, 2014
    Opinion Is Autocomplete Evil? Some Women Take A Hard Look at Google ! Breaking News Nov 7, 2013

  3. lalihayer

    lalihayer
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2007
    Messages:
    137
    Likes Received:
    103
    He is the Lord, creator of so called good and evil (good and evil are relative, not absolute). He got it figured out since first action in universe until last one (if any). Why would he want to stop any evil (not evil for Him,but us mortals.)?
    Epicurus paradox is for Abrahamic God only, God described (or tried because He cannot be described fully) by Gurbani is beyond this logic.
     
  4. pk70

    pk70
    Expand Collapse
    Writer SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2008
    Messages:
    1,582
    Likes Received:
    627
    Sinister Ji, nice to see something from you, here are my comments, like them or not

    The Riddle of Epicurus

    Is god willing to prevent evil but not able
    then he is not omnipotent.
    All is God’s show, good or bad, why would he stop it to please this writer

    Is he able but not willing
    then he is malevolent.
    Any one call Him whatever one wishes, He is everywhere, tomorrow they will ask him to control earthquakes, then storms then this and that

    Is god both able and willing
    then whence cometh evil?
    It depends how it is looked at, law of change surpasses everything damn thing

    Is he neither able nor willing

    then why call him god?
    Call Him God or not He is not interested in it, the fact remains, an umbrella cannot stop the rain:):ice:


     
  5. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
    Expand Collapse
    Sawa lakh se EK larraoan
    Mentor Writer SPNer Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2004
    Messages:
    7,623
    Likes Received:
    14,188

    ABSOLUTELY !! Tu Sultan kahon hon meean teri kavan wadayee !!
     
  6. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
    Expand Collapse
    1947-2014 (Archived)
    SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2004
    Messages:
    14,551
    Likes Received:
    19,200
    He is both able and willing but loves his creation so much that he gives it the opportunity to make conscious the decision to choose Truth. These questions -- from philosophy class -- are answered by Sikhi -- we just have to refresh our memories. :}8-:
     
  7. bindi

    bindi
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2005
    Messages:
    11
    Likes Received:
    2
    I love the riddle of Epicurus.
    Another riddle of God is this:- Is God really Omnipotent - that is can he really do anything? If God can do anything, can he die? If he can, then why say he is omnipotent? If he can't then he is also not omnipotent. Either way God loses. Ha, ha, ha, ha.....
    Bindi:}{}{}:
     
    • Like Like x 2
  8. Amarpal

    Amarpal
    Expand Collapse
    Mentor Writer SPNer Contributor

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2004
    Messages:
    591
    Likes Received:
    364
    Dear Khalsa Ji,

    Many scripture pass the responsibility on to God to do things for them. God has equiped humans will all the mental faculties, sense organs and the organs for action that they need for evolved life. It is for the individuals to make use of them properly.

    As I understand, God is 'One' there is no duality in it - there is no Good or Bad.

    God does not do things for us, we alone have to do. God is not our servant.

    With love and respect for all.

    Amarpal Singh
     
  9. msv

    msv
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    May 20, 2006
    Messages:
    6
    Likes Received:
    3
    :argue:
    Do you know bindi means "a dot" in other words nothing. Nothing can not talk about absolute. God is not about good or evil, it is we humans who look at things through our own reasoning. Every thing has two sides e g a coin has head and tail without two sides it can not be used as a coin. beauty comes with ugliness youth comes with old age victory comes with loss. Actions and reactions are equal and opponent that is the law of physics. God is not intresred in good or evil HE just plays his game. How you take it is up to you.
     
  10. vsgrewal48895

    vsgrewal48895
    Expand Collapse
    Writer SPNer

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2009
    Messages:
    651
    Likes Received:
    662
    Dear All,


    The Primal Good is good (God), pure and simple, not by virtue of connection with some thing else, because there is nothing else above it. All things are below It, and receive good from It. It is further more an agent, whose action is intellect (The Higher Self), life, and every thing in which there is life and intelligence. It should not be supposed that evil/bad is opposite to the Primal Good, because there is no intermediary between them. The Primal Good has no opposite. Good either does not exist, or if it does exist, it has no opposite what so ever. But it is impossible for the Good not to exist, because it is the cause of causes and Creator of all things, through the generosity thereof.

    ਕਰਣ ਕਾਰਣ ਸਮਰਥੁ ਅਪਾਰਾ ॥

    Karaṇ kāraṇ samrath apārā.

    You are the Cause of causes, Almighty Infinite Akal Purkh.-----Guru Nanak, Raag Maru, AGGS, Page, 1035-7

    ਹਾਹਾ ਹੋਤਹੋਇ ਨਹੀ ਜਾਨਾ॥ਜਬ ਹੀ ਹੋਇ ਤਬਹਿਮਨੁ ਮਾਨਾ ॥ਹੈ ਤਉ ਸਹੀ ਲਖੈਜਉ ਕੋਈ ॥ਤਬ ਓਹੀ ਉਹੁ ਏਹੁਨ ਹੋਈ ॥


    Hāhā hoṯ ho­ė nahī jānā, Jab hī ho­ė ṯabeh man mānā, Hai ṯa­o sahī lakẖai ja­o ko­ī, Ŧab ohī uho ėhu na ho­ī.


    HAHA: God exists, but also is not known to exist. When God is known to exist, then the mind is pleased and appeased. Of course the God exists, if one could only understand It. Then, alone It exists, and not this mortal being.-----Kabir, Gauri Bawan Akhari, AGGS, Page, 342-16 & 17

    First creation is the primordial matter, then the intellect, then the conscience, then the nature and body. When the human body is immersed in the desires, he does not ascend rapidly, but if one is unattached to these things, and has taken to intellect then natural disposition cannot entice any one.

    Finally Primal Good is the Creator and secondary good is what It has created-the intellect/ਬਿਬੇਕਬੁੱਧੀ. The tertiary good is the conscience by its arrangement of winding in the body, so the good is the conscience which makes the individual to decide between right or wrong. The intellect became all things only because its Creator does not have any attributes and not resemble anything what so ever, because all things come from It, but is present every where but unattached (ਅਲਿਪਾਰੀ/ਅਲਪਨਾ/ਅਲਿਪਤੁ/ਅਲੇਪ). The true One is the creator of the things, but It is not remote or separate from them. It is with them as if It were not with them. Its togetherness is evident only with those things that have the power to know It. It is this intellect that does not need to know another knowledge, because It is pure ultimate knowledge, comprehending all knowledge as well as the cause of sciences. The action is intellect, life, and Higher Self, and every thing in which there is life and intelligence.

    The One is great, greater than all things, not in terms of mass, but in terms of power (ਕਲਾ). Thus when we say infinite (ਅਪਾਰਾ) we do not mean in terms of mass or number but power. And that is because It is above all possible imagination, existing by virtue of Its own essence (ਸੈਭੰ)

    Some one asked Socrates, What is God the Exalted like?

    Socrates answered, “Hidden but not concealed, evident but not visible”.

    Conclusion;

    “There is something above the substance of the firmament, nothing is greater than It, and there is no way to quantify or measure It. It is beyond change in any manner or mode. There is no limit to Its power. Therefore It performs Its acts outside time, and space being by nature effective and thus always in action, with out Its action effecting It. Nothing comes from It in a state of potential, rather, things come from It in action, while Its potential always pervades the universe.” “By the arrangement of things, their connectedness, their control, and their order, we know that their Maker is One.”

    Cordially,

    Virinder S. Grewal
     
    • Like Like x 2
  11. Sinister

    Sinister
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    May 4, 2006
    Messages:
    907
    Likes Received:
    394
    maybe god is suffering from Dissociative Identity Disorder...explains alot doesnt it? :{;o: :D

    also helps solve the riddle
    tee hee
     
    • Like Like x 2
  12. bindi

    bindi
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2005
    Messages:
    11
    Likes Received:
    2
    Bindi also means the "tikka" - i.e the mark of the third eye. That is the ability to see what other fools cannot. And here is another riddle I like:-

    Is God really Almighty? How do we test this? Simple. Consider if God can create a stone so heavy even He cannot lift it. Can the Almighty do it? If Yes, then he is not Almighty. If No he is still not Almighty.

    Ha, ha, ha.....:happy:
     
  13. bindi

    bindi
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2005
    Messages:
    11
    Likes Received:
    2
    Bindi also means "tikka" - the mark of the third eye - the ability to see what other fools cannot. The ability to go beyond the superficial religious learning of some who enjoy bragging like they know something.
     
  14. vsgrewal48895

    vsgrewal48895
    Expand Collapse
    Writer SPNer

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2009
    Messages:
    651
    Likes Received:
    662
    Dear Bindi Ji,

    IMHO Theological God is rather an elusive conception and it becomes difficult in discussing this question, to know what one is discussing? It is an Absolute Principle and It applies to every thing (Sargun) and some thing in terms of itself cannot be defined (Nirgun). One must set aside personal prejudices or bias and keep an open mind to understand the Principle. God and spirit are both out side the limitations of time and space. Prejudiced individuals see only what fits those prejudices.

    Q. Do you believe in God?

    A. It depends what you mean by the term.

    One must keep an open mind and be receptive despite what issues arise?

    The absolute Principle (God) is not a, thing, sound or vibration, not divisible, not diluted or augmented, has no partner or complement, has no form or qualities. It is One and unity, determines every thing, comes before every thing, and is the law of every thing being blind but Its justice is evenhanded. The ancient pagan Greek philosopher Plato said that the highest power was the Good Itself, that transcendent principle by whose light we could tell the difference between good and bad, right and wrong, appropriate and inappropriate.

    The Eternal is the source of everlasting life, power, and wisdom through its manifestations in the world. Some call him hypothetical personal Creator-- to whom they petition—for the fulfillment of personal questionable desires. This Eternal power teaches that right action is the truest supplication for the benefit desired. Aristotle said that there is something above the substance of the firmament, nothing is greater than It and there is no way to quantify or measure It. It is beyond change in any manner or mode. There is no limit to Its power. Therefore It performs Its acts outside of time, being by nature effective and thus always in action, with out Its actions affecting It. Nothing comes from It in a state of potential, rather things come from It in action, while Its potential always pervades the universe. The present age is learning to apply scientific method to find that truth about the Eternal Wisdom.

    There is no absolute scientific proof of the presence of The Absolute Principle or the Infinite God; henceforth the It’s subtle essence cannot be obtained by any one. Religion and science will always clash due to perceived insults to the research and rationality by fundamentalists and non progressive individuals. Spirituality was the domain of the faith but lately science has developed with close alignment. Science ends, when reason fails and then spirituality takes over. God cannot be completely contained with in nature and therefore God’s existence is out side the science’s ability to weigh in. Scientists are not blind believers but make a critical analysis of the evidence, quite opposite to the religious approach based on blind faith and belief. On the other hand because something is vastly improbable, we need a God to explain it. Since we are profoundly ignorant about certain things we need to work on them like understanding the physiology of conscience to reduce human suffering of pain and depression.

    God is a sum of forces of physical nature higher than the real Self. The Higher Self is far higher than ordinary conception of God, which is limited by the imperfections of mind that imagines and fathoms It. When man’s nature becomes so sublimated that he can rise beyond thought to a higher and fuller state of consciousness and becomes enlightened with the Divine knowledge, it is then that he may stultify the nature of that “Higher Power”.
    God cannot be defined because It applies to every thing and can not be measured, Atula, Atolak (ਅਤੁਲ, ਅਤੋਲਕ.). The words such as Agochar Ached (ਅਛੇਦ), Agaadh (ਅਗਾਧ), Adisatt/Alakh(ਅਦਿਸਟ/ਅਲਖ),Agocher (ਅਗੋਚਰ), Agum (ਅਗਮੁ), Ajooni (ਆਜੋਨੀ/ਅਜੋਨੀ),Akal Moorat (ਅਕਾਲ ਮੂਰਤ),Akhut (ਅਖੁਟ), Alipaari/Alpana-(ਅਲਪਾਰੀ/ਅਲਪਨਾ),Anaath (ਅਨਾਥ), Apaah (ਅਪਾਹ), Alpat (ਅਲਿਪਤੁ/ਅਲੇਪ), Apaar (ਅਪਾਰ),Aprasa (ਅਪਰਸ),Athaha (ਅਥਾਹ), Itthrha (ਇਠੜਾ),Karta Purkh (ਕਰਤਾ ਪੁਰਖ), Nirbhau (ਨਿਰਭਉ),Nirvair (ਨਿਰਵੈਰ), Niranjan (ਨਿਰੰਜਨ), Nirankar (ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰ), and Saibhung (ਸੈਭੰ) have been used in Gurbani to express Its Unfathomable nature. Those who fathom It cannot behold God and those who behold God do not fathom It. God is incomprehensible and cannot be anthropomorphized since It is Infinite and hence cannot be squeezed into a finite human body.

    Cordially,

    Virinder
     
  15. BhagatSingh

    BhagatSingh Canada
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer sikhiart.com

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2006
    Messages:
    2,912
    Likes Received:
    1,640
    In SGGS it says God is everything. If God is everything he must be nothing as well.
    Also Sargun-Nirgun, all attributes no attributes concept, tells use God can be anything... even nothing.
    So if God is nothing why do we care?
     
  16. BhagatSingh

    BhagatSingh Canada
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer sikhiart.com

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2006
    Messages:
    2,912
    Likes Received:
    1,640
    We will never know Sinister ji. but your comment is just as valid as anyone who claims that a God exists in the first place.
     
  17. Admin Singh

    Admin Singh
    Expand Collapse
    Admin SPNer

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2004
    Messages:
    5,973
    Likes Received:
    5,043
    Clarification: Please refer to post #10 in this thread. :)
     
  18. BhagatSingh

    BhagatSingh Canada
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer sikhiart.com

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2006
    Messages:
    2,912
    Likes Received:
    1,640
    haha thanks Aman Singh ji.:D ... I think I should get some rest...:eek:
     
  19. BhagatSingh

    BhagatSingh Canada
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer sikhiart.com

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2006
    Messages:
    2,912
    Likes Received:
    1,640
    bindi ji
    I was once stuck with that question in my head for weeks! Then I thought that we only ask that question because we live in a universe where tehre is such a thing as logical!
    Surely there must be other types of universes out there that don't function based on logic. We live in a 3D world but maybe some universes contain other dimensions and such. they may contain things that may never make sense to us.
    Like that question implies one to use logic but one thing I have learned is that when it God to comes to God... the more you think, the more it fails to make any sense. You think you know something but the more you know about God and less you know about God. ;)
    This is why SGGS simply says you cannot define God. And Guru Sahibs simply state that even if they had thousands of mouths, scripts and ink.They still would not be able to put God in words. I think this implies that everyone should be free to believe in any kind of God they wish even is this God is non-existent.
     
  20. akal_jsingh

    akal_jsingh
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2007
    Messages:
    7
    Likes Received:
    7
    Hi...

    Death is relative.

    God is everything. How can He be relative to something... ?
     
  21. akal_jsingh

    akal_jsingh
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2007
    Messages:
    7
    Likes Received:
    7
    Evil cometh thru God Himself.....
     

Share This Page