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Gurbani (14-53)
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Gurbani (151-185)
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ਰਾਗੁ ਆਸਾ | Raag Aasaa
Gurbani (347-348)
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ਰਾਗੁ ਗੂਜਰੀ | Raag Goojaree
Gurbani (489-503)
Ashtpadiyan (503-508)
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Vaar Gujari (517-526)
ਰਾਗੁ ਦੇਵਗੰਧਾਰੀ | Raag Dayv-Gandhaaree
Gurbani (527-536)
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Gurbani (537-556)
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ਰਾਗੁ ਵਡਹੰਸ | Raag Wadhans
Gurbani (557-564)
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Ghoriaan (575-578)
Alaahaniiaa (578-582)
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ਰਾਗੁ ਸੋਰਠਿ | Raag Sorath
Gurbani (595-634)
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Gurbani (660-685)
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ਰਾਗੁ ਜੈਤਸਰੀ | Raag Jaitsree
Gurbani (696-703)
Chhant (703-705)
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ਰਾਗੁ ਟੋਡੀ | Raag Todee
ਰਾਗੁ ਬੈਰਾੜੀ | Raag Bairaaree
ਰਾਗੁ ਤਿਲੰਗ | Raag Tilang
Gurbani (721-727)
Bhagat Bani (727)
ਰਾਗੁ ਸੂਹੀ | Raag Suhi
Gurbani (728-750)
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ਰਾਗੁ ਬਿਲਾਵਲੁ | Raag Bilaaval
Gurbani (795-831)
Ashtpadiyan (831-838)
Thitteen (838-840)
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Chhant (843-848)
Vaar Bilaaval (849-855)
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ਰਾਗੁ ਗੋਂਡ | Raag Gond
Gurbani (859-869)
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ਰਾਗੁ ਰਾਮਕਲੀ | Raag Ramkalee
Ashtpadiyan (902-916)
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ਰਾਗੁ ਨਟ ਨਾਰਾਇਨ | Raag Nat Narayan
Gurbani (975-980)
Ashtpadiyan (980-983)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਾਲੀ ਗਉੜਾ | Raag Maalee Gauraa
Gurbani (984-988)
Bhagat Bani (988)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਾਰੂ | Raag Maaroo
Gurbani (889-1008)
Ashtpadiyan (1008-1014)
Kaafee (1014-1016)
Ashtpadiyan (1016-1019)
Anjulian (1019-1020)
Solhe (1020-1033)
Dakhni (1033-1043)
ਰਾਗੁ ਤੁਖਾਰੀ | Raag Tukhaari
Bara Maha (1107-1110)
Chhant (1110-1117)
ਰਾਗੁ ਕੇਦਾਰਾ | Raag Kedara
Gurbani (1118-1123)
Bhagat Bani (1123-1124)
ਰਾਗੁ ਭੈਰਉ | Raag Bhairo
Gurbani (1125-1152)
Partaal (1153)
Ashtpadiyan (1153-1167)
ਰਾਗੁ ਬਸੰਤੁ | Raag Basant
Gurbani (1168-1187)
Ashtpadiyan (1187-1193)
Vaar Basant (1193-1196)
ਰਾਗੁ ਸਾਰਗ | Raag Saarag
Gurbani (1197-1200)
Partaal (1200-1231)
Ashtpadiyan (1232-1236)
Chhant (1236-1237)
Vaar Saarang (1237-1253)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਲਾਰ | Raag Malaar
Gurbani (1254-1293)
Partaal (1265-1273)
Ashtpadiyan (1273-1278)
Chhant (1278)
Vaar Malaar (1278-91)
Bhagat Bani (1292-93)
ਰਾਗੁ ਕਾਨੜਾ | Raag Kaanraa
Gurbani (1294-96)
Partaal (1296-1318)
Ashtpadiyan (1308-1312)
Chhant (1312)
Vaar Kaanraa
Bhagat Bani (1318)
ਰਾਗੁ ਕਲਿਆਨ | Raag Kalyaan
Gurbani (1319-23)
Ashtpadiyan (1323-26)
ਰਾਗੁ ਪ੍ਰਭਾਤੀ | Raag Prabhaatee
Gurbani (1327-1341)
Ashtpadiyan (1342-51)
ਰਾਗੁ ਜੈਜਾਵੰਤੀ | Raag Jaijaiwanti
Gurbani (1352-53)
Salok | Gatha | Phunahe | Chaubole | Swayiye
Sehskritee Mahala 1
Sehskritee Mahala 5
Gaathaa Mahala 5
Phunhay Mahala 5
Chaubolae Mahala 5
Shaloks Bhagat Kabir
Shaloks Sheikh Farid
Swaiyyae Mahala 5
Swaiyyae in Praise of Gurus
Shaloks in Addition To Vaars
Shalok Ninth Mehl
Mundavanee Mehl 5
ਰਾਗ ਮਾਲਾ, Raag Maalaa
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Hard Talk
Action Against Those Honoring Ragi Likely
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<blockquote data-quote="arshi" data-source="post: 121606" data-attributes="member: 9479"><p><strong><span style="color: #001f4b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">Tejwant Singh ji</span></span></strong></p><p> </p><p><strong><FONT color=#001f4b><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">Gurfateh<?"urn:<img src="http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/ /></FONT></FONT></B></P><P> </P><P><B><FONT color=#001f4b><FONT face=Verdana>It’s the weekend again and I have had time to read your post and think more clearly than I would do during the hectic weekdays. My response is purely a general expression of my views and how I feel presently about certain things and in no way aimed at hurting anyone’s feelings – least of all yours. So please take my comments in that spirit.</FONT></FONT></B></P><P><B><FONT color=#001f4b><FONT face=Verdana></FONT></FONT></B></P><P><I><FONT color=#001f4b><FONT face=Verdana>You wrote: </FONT></FONT></I><B><I><FONT color=blue><FONT face=Verdana>Arshi ji,Gurbani has taught me to give the benefit of the doubt to others rather than doubting their actions. I will just leave it to that what I have put in <B>bold</B> above.</FONT></FONT></I></B></P><P> </P><P><B><FONT color=#001f4b><FONT face=Verdana>This discussion has gone on much longer than I expected. I am beginning to lose the thread of what we are debating here as I agree with a lot of what you are saying. It appears the main point of contention is the authenticity of the Ram Rai story. Let me try and take each point you have made in the latest post. My attempt will be only to clarify my position and not to criticise of anyone in particular. </FONT></FONT></B></P><P><B><FONT color=#001f4b><FONT face=Verdana></FONT></FONT></B></P><P><B><FONT color=#001f4b><FONT face=Verdana>In response to my earlier comment: <B>“I, too, am dedicated to Gurbani, through and through, and Guru Granth Sahib Ji is the Eternal Light I look towards to guide me on my spiritual journey.”</B></FONT></FONT></B><FONT color=#001f4b><FONT face=Verdana></FONT></FONT></P><P> </P><P><FONT color=#001f4b><FONT face=Verdana></FONT></FONT></P><P><I><FONT color=#001f4b><FONT face=Verdana>You responded: </FONT></FONT></I><B><I><FONT color=blue><FONT face=Verdana>I am glad to know that , however under the same token you also claimed in another post that you are a said," alt="" class="fr-fic fr-dii fr-draggable " style="" /></span></strong><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></I></B></span></span></p><p> <span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: #001f4b"><strong>First of all let me clarify the meaning of the term ‘sakhi’ as I understand it. "sakhi" is normally taken to mean an "historical account". The term does have a broader meaning, as stories contained in janam sakhis, many of them questionable. Some of these are considered <em>mangharan</em>t – made up stories as they are passed on like folklores second, third hand etc. Then there are those we refer to as parables. Sometimes these are told to explain some of the mythological names mentioned in Gurbani but these must not distract us from the true essence of Gurbani in the way we must use it to run our day to day life. I am referring only to those sakhis which enhance our UNDERSTANDING OF GURBANI. </strong></span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><strong><span style="color: #001f4b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">Guru Granth Sahib Ji mentions many names from the past, e.g. Brhama, Vishnu, Sudamaa, Krishen, Ajamal. Ganika – the full meaning of the verse (tuk) in Gurbani becomes clearer if we know a little bit more of the characters mentioned. They often allow us to understand the negative traits which inflict humans and the awareness of these gives an opportunity to appreciate the teachings of Gurbani and how we may apply these to eradicate or marginalise these negative traits. This approach does not take anything away from Gurbani – it enhances our understanding. Then there are parables with ‘morality’ conclusions – I posted a handful under the Sakhis section and these were well received. In response to one - <strong>CONMEN: TWISTING THE TRUTH - Narayanjot ji wrote: </strong>“Please write more! I am a hopeless fan of morality stories told this way.” SO AM I.</span></span></strong></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><strong><span style="color: #001f4b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">When I wrote: <em>"<strong>True, I am a sucker for Sakhis but only as long as they deliver a message, a moral in line with Gurmat." </strong></em><strong>I did so in thesame spirit to which Narayanjot ji alluded in her post. In fact her comments were actually at the back of mind when I wrote being a sucker for morality sakhis. I admire Narayanjot ji’s style of communicating and am not ashamed to even borrow some of her phrases and I did point out one such phrase to her which I liked. </strong></span></span></strong></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><strong><span style="color: #001f4b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">Aman ji also appreciated a Sakhi with a moral: FOUR THIEVES AND THE SIMPLETON and this is what he wrote: </span></span></strong></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><strong><em><span style="color: #001f4b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">"Arshi ji, your parable truly sums up the present state of Sikhs... nobody could have summed up the situation better..." <?xml:namespace prefix = v ns = "urn::vml" /><v:shapetype id=_x0000_t75 stroked="f" filled="f" path="m@4@5l@4@11@9@11@9@5xe" o<img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite7" alt=":p" title="Stick Out Tongue :p" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":p" />referrelative="t" o:spt="75" coordsize="21600,21600"><v:stroke joinstyle="miter"></v:stroke><v:formulas><v:f eqn="if lineDrawn pixelLineWidth 0"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @0 1 0"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum 0 0 @1"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @2 1 2"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelWidth"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelHeight"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @0 0 1"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @6 1 2"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelWidth"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @8 21600 0"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelHeight"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @10 21600 0"></v:f></v:formulas><v<img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite7" alt=":p" title="Stick Out Tongue :p" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":p" />ath o:connecttype="rect" gradientshapeok="t" o:extrusionok="f"></v<img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite7" alt=":p" title="Stick Out Tongue :p" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":p" />ath><o:lock aspectratio="t" v:ext="edit"></o:lock></v:shapetype><v:shape style="WIDTH: 24.75pt; HEIGHT: 18.75pt" id=_x0000_i1025 alt="" type="#_x0000_t75"><v:imagedata src="file:///C:\DOCUME~1\RAJ\LOCALS~1\Temp\msohtml1\01\clip_image001.gif" o:href="http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/images/smilies/NOTWORTH.GIF"></v:imagedata></v:shape></span></span></em></strong></span></span></p><p> <span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: #001f4b"><strong>Where these are used to understand or to explain the teachings of SGGS, I see no harm in them but the paramount source, scripture, Guru, Guide and guiding light <u>is</u> SGGS.</strong></span></span></span></span></p><p> <span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><em><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">You wrote:<strong> SGGS is a stand alone tool box. it needs no Sakhis to justify anything in it and secondly how Guru Har Rai not being forgiving but being a punisher- as you believe in the Sakhi, <strong>delivers a message, a moral in line with Gurmat. </strong>It seems quite contradictory to the behaviour of one who has attained sehaj.</strong></span></span></em></span></span></p><p> <span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><strong><span style="color: #001f4b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">I prefer to use the term incident here as ‘sakhi’ (as explained above) often has fictitious connotations. You keep on mentioning ‘sehaj’. Many non-Sikhs accuse Guru Gobind Singh Ji of lacking it (quite wrongly of course) when he lifted the sword. True Guru Har Rai Ji was tender hearted but that does not mean he would not discipline wayward individuals when he saw a serious transgression of Sikhi Sidhant. <u>If</u> the story is right then the stand he took demonstrates sehaj rather than anger. It is not easy to breakaway from one’s children and mortals like us are bound by moh (atachment) of our lived ones. I, from the top of my head, just cited two incidents as contrasting examples and you, forgive me, are taking these as conclusive and final say on the matter. I believed in both the incidents but it does not rule out that I may be wrong as I do take your point that our Gurus must not be seen or shown as angry revengeful persons which, I agree with you, they certainly were not.</span></span></strong></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><em><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">You wrote<strong><span style="color: blue">: I do not regret anything in the past because I believe in Ik Ong Kaar's hukam. The Source decided about my quest. I never have any say in it.</span></strong></span></em></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><strong><span style="color: #001f4b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">I agree and I did add that only with his blessings (gur parsad) do we tread the true path (sacha marg). It was the human in me talking when I wrote this. I did observe, I was opening out my heart to you – i.e. comments made without being on guard.</span></span></strong></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: #001f4b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">Earlier I wrote: <strong>“I often try and find time to read books by learned Sikh scholars, e.g. Bhai Gurdas ji, Bhai Vir Singh ji, Gyani Maskin ji to enhance my understanding of Gurbani and of course also <em>itihaas</em> as it often gives the background to enrich that understanding. This includes Bani of Dasam Pita (e.g. Jaap Sahib, Savaiaye)”</strong></span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><em><span style="color: #001f4b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">And you responded:</span></span></em></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><strong><em><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">Knowledge is always good and that is the meaning of being a Sikh but for anyone of us to claim what our Dasam Pita wrote is nothing but second guessing him which is not in my realm of understanding of Gurbani. The fact is that Bhai Gurdas' vaarans were not added in the SGGS by our Gurus and then we claim that our Gurus said that his vaarans are the key to understanding Gurbani as if SGGS were under lock and key. Gurbani gives us the tools for critical thinking. Believing in the above, as many do is second guessing our Gurus.Having said that Bhai Gurdas' poetry is quite interesting. Bhai Vir Singh was a great scholar and in fact a close friend of my grand father and Prof. Puran Singh was my grand dad's - Pita ji's first cousin, his Bhua's son. When he returned from ffice:smarttags" /><?xml::<img src="http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/ /><st1:country-region w:st=" alt="" class="fr-fic fr-dii fr-draggable " style="" /></st1:country-region><st1<img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite7" alt=":p" title="Stick Out Tongue :p" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":p" />lace w:st="on">Japan as a Buddhist, Pita ji, along with Bhai Vir Singh ji were instrumental in bringing him back to the Sikhi fold.</span></span></em></strong></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><strong><span style="color: #001f4b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">I did not expect the above statement to draw any comments – I do not see as having said anything unusual or unworthy of a Sikh. I personally did not mention any keys opening locks. All I wrote was that any works of a scholar which helps one in translating, interpreting and understanding Gurbani is a good thing. Now that you mention it, true there is a common belief that Bhai Gurdas Ji’s works are regarded as a key to understanding Gurbani and some say these were not included because Bhai Sahib was given to houmai (egotism) when conferred with excessive praise over his works. I do occasionally refer to his writings</span></span></strong></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: #001f4b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">Earlier I wrote - Quote:</span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><strong><span style="color: #001f4b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">I will not let politics sway me from my path unless I consider the matter is directly blocking my path towards spirituality. </span></span></strong></span></span></p><p> <span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><em><span style="color: #001f4b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">And you responded:</span></span></em></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><strong><em><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">I beg to differ with you. Politics- Miri is part and parcel of spirituality- Piri. Miri- Piri are two tracks on which the Gurmat trains runs without one or the other the train has no way to move ahead.</span></span></em></strong></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><strong><span style="color: #001f4b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">This was a personal opinion in that I would venture into <em>miri</em> only when I feel my conscious allows it – the concept of <em>miri piri</em> does not mean that one jumps headlong into every dispute without first examining the facts – this is a general statement – not a political one. But, overall I agree with what you are saying.</span></span></strong></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: #001f4b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">Earlier I wrote - quote:</span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><strong><span style="color: #001f4b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">Faith is, to a greater extent a personal matter, and the trouble with organised ‘religion’ is that it sometimes sucks people in to act against their nature and their inner voice</span></span></strong></span></span></p><p> <span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><em><span style="color: #001f4b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">And you responded:</span></span></em></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><strong><em><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">Please forgive my bluntness but Sikhi is not a faith but a way of life for me. Faith makes people blind. Sikhi helps us open our inner eyes. Sikhi is not a religion either. Organised religions demand external impositions where as Sikhi breeds internal manifestation.</span></span></em></strong></span></span></p><p> <span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><strong><span style="color: #001f4b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">Tejwant ji, you can be as blunt as you like – I do not mind a bit as you also confer immense praise on some of my writings. It works both ways, I suppose. I will not accuse you of lacking sehaj either – quite to the contrary it is me who is not always in control of my feelings and I am still coming to terms with the Five Thieves. Faith is what we believe in are the values which we adopt to live our life. Let us not split hair on the use of terminology – ‘substance over terminology’ is the correct approach in my opinion.</span></span></strong></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: #001f4b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">Earlier I wrote- Quote:</span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><strong><span style="color: #001f4b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">I only quoted two examples from the top of my head and have no reason to question the action of the both the Gurus under the circumstances. Interestingly, <strong>IJ Singh ji</strong> has also quoted one of the incidents in his article (Tribal justice and excommunication). </span></span></strong></span></span></p><p> <span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><em><span style="color: #001f4b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">You responded;</span></span></em></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><strong><em><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">“Guru Har Rai shunned his own son Ram Rai because he had changed a line of gurbani in deference to Emperor Aurangzeb. Guru Har Rai shunned his own son Ram Rai because he had changed a line of gurbani in deference to Emperor Aurangzeb.”</span></span></em></strong></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><strong><em><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">I am sorry to say but it gives the impression that y</span></span></em></strong><strong><em><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">ou did not read the reasoning given in my missive about the Sakhi and also you missed the whole point what Dr.</span></span></em></strong><strong><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"> I.J. Singh is trying to make. </span></span></strong></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><strong><em><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">Dr. I.J. Singh is a good friend of mine and we interact via emails and telephone calls quite often. I sent him our interaction about the Sakhi and asked him the same. If you PM me your email address, I can send you my email to him and also ask him if I can divulge anything from his because he did mention that he agrees with me and the two Sakhis were not part of the original draft. </span></span></em></strong></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><strong><span style="color: #001f4b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">I was very impressed with Dr IJ Singh’s article and I said so in that thread. My only point was to confirm the popularity of that incident which is well documented in many writings. For example, Satbir Singh ji gives a long account of it in his volume on the Seventh Nanak ‘Nirbhau Nirvair’. Whether one believes in it or not is a different matter and that I had also quoted it in the same spirit, i.e. as an illustration of how each incident should be judged on its merits. One can quite easily take another illustration that suit one’s belief. The two events came to my mind when posting – however you have every right to agree or disagree.</span></span></strong></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><strong><span style="color: #001f4b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">I think a discussion on an open forum can sometimes veer off course and wrong impressions taken as others on the forum may intervene and complicate the issues. This is why I do not post often on the form – in fact most of my posts are in response to your queries and frankly – no disrespect to you – I would like to put some restraint on these and concentrate on researching and understanding Gurbani – I have said this before and am perhaps labouring on the thought. It will be a pleasure to send you a PM with my email ID. </span></span></strong></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><em><span style="color: #001f4b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">You wrote </span></span></em><strong><em><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">I was a bit surprised when you caught the moment and were quick to mention about Ram Rai's Sakhi whereas his wonderful essay is the blue print on Miri. I have posted my response on Sikhchic.com regarding this.</span></span></em></strong></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><strong><span style="color: #001f4b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">I have already commended the article under that thread – please also see my comments above. </span></span></strong><strong><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">I am glad to note that Dr IJ Singh is a personal friend of yours – you are blessed with good company and also distinguished pedigree going back to the times of Bhai Vir Singh ji. I come from a rather humble background but my father was a true exponent of the three pillars of Naam, japo, kirat karo and wand shako. He worked like any kirati and performed nishkam kitan, in his spare time, for nearly 70 years based on classical ragas. My father-in-law also earned his living from honest kirat but devoted his whole life to the study of SGGS and knew it virtually by heart. He was ‘feared’ by learned scholars and <em>Granthees </em>visiting <st1:country-region w:st="on">Kenya</st1:country-region> and later <st1<img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite7" alt=":p" title="Stick Out Tongue :p" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":p" />lace w:st="on"><st1:country-region w:st="on">UK</st1:country-region>. I was able to learn a little from them but should have done more but it was not to be as we are all governed by His Ordnance.</span></strong></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><em><span style="color: #001f4b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">Earlier I wrote - Quote: </span></span></em><strong><span style="color: #001f4b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">Yes ten Gurus and a single <em>jyot</em> but each showed unique characteristics of its own to give us a complete and rounded picture of life and how to live it. Otherwise what was the need of the successors?</span></span></strong></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><em><span style="color: #001f4b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">You responded:</span></span></em><strong><em><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">I agree with you but each characteristic does not mean contradiction of Gurmat ideals but the compliment and evolution of them with time that only happened in Sikhi which is the pragmatic way of life and did not stop in time unlike other religions who offered nothing but dogmas which stopped in that time zone. No dogmatic religion needs any successors. The fight,hatred, disdain and the division between Sunnis and Shias is the proof of that.</span></span></em></strong></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><strong><span style="color: #001f4b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">Whether there is a contradiction of ideas is not for me to decide. True, we can have a personal <em>drishtikon</em> of viewing things and sometimes our logic may be faulted but it is only human to err. With time and Guru’s blessings I hope to move on from any such ‘hang ups’ due to a defect in the way I think. I am only at the nursery level of my spiritual quest. Guru is <em>sarab kala samrath</em> and can never be faulted. </span></span></strong></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: #001f4b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">Earlier I wrote - Quote: <strong>I guess that the Seventh Nanak applied more exacting standards in the case of his son as others may see it as nepotism, if he didn’t. In the case of Guru Amar Das, Baba Dattoo ji was the son of the second Guru whom he had served for many years. Perhaps Guru Ji took into account Dattoo Ji’s disappointment in not getting the Gorged which he felt was rightfully (his viewpoint) his. </strong></span></span></span></span></p><p> <span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><em><span style="color: #001f4b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">You responded:</span></span></em></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><strong><em><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">Your above statement confirms that you are a sucker for Sakhis whether they compliment Gurmat ideals or not.</span></span></em></strong></span></span></p><p> <span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><strong><span style="color: #001f4b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">Tejwant ji, I must confess this comment took me aback a bit. I have already clarified the point above, in great detail, i.e. a distinction between actual historical events and parables. Even if a parable gives an insight into understanding some aspect of life it cannot be a bad thing. For someone to say, he wishes to learn from others, even from a simpleton like me, and then make such comments puzzles me. But, I am not offended as I do believe you are a better Sikh than me and know more than me – I am only a lowly person full of faults and burn in the fire of duality. I can only pray: </span></span></strong></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><em><span style="color: #339966"><span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">Man's sins are as immeasurable as the water that fills the seas and the oceans.</span></span></em></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><em><span style="color: #339966"><span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">O Lord take mercy upon our souls and extend a little pity to keep this mankind (laden with sins) afloat; for without Thy Grace, which can keep stones afloat, it will for sure drown. </span></span></em></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><em><span style="color: #339966"><span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">Man's soul burns in the fire of ignorance and sin; his innerself is being shredded by unseen scissors of worldly desires and vain pursuits,</span></span></em></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><em><span style="color: #339966"><span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">Pray Nanak that man may come to terms with the Lord's Order so that he may <strong>forever live blissfully. (</strong></span></span></em><strong><em><span style="color: #339966"><span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">gao<u>rh</u>ee chay<u>t</u>ee mehlaa 1 . </span></span></em></strong><strong><em><span style="color: #339966"><span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">SGGS156 - my humble</span></span></em></strong><em><span style="color: #339966"><span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'"> <strong>translation)</strong></span></span></em></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: #001f4b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">Earlier I wrote - Quote: </span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><strong><span style="color: #001f4b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">Interfering with Gurbani is a very grave offence and that too of a Guru other than Baba Dattoo’s father. Would he have taken a more lenient attitude if Baba Ram Rai had misquoted Guru Har Rai Ji? I do not know! Whether a course of action is right or wrong also depends on the times and circumstances ruling then. Hundreds of years later we may come to a different and even wrong deduction.</span></span></strong></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><em><span style="color: #001f4b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">You responded: </span></span></em><strong><em><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">Again, this is nothing but a speculation and a blind belief in something which has nothing to do with Sikhi.</span></span></em></strong></span></span></p><p> <span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><strong><span style="color: #001f4b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">‘Blind belief’! What I am saying is pure common sense and does not require any depth of understanding of any scripture to appreciate that but you have a right to your opinion and I to mine. Let us end it that. The current events prove how people are unable to interpret events and Gurbani correctly and allow themselves to be drawn into the whirlpool of what they claim to be logic. As long as something suits their logic or purpose is considered correct and everything else is false!! Self interest seems to override Truth these days. I am afraid there is a tendency that many do not check out the facts on the touchstone of Gurbani but do so on the touchstone of politics and self- interest (this is a general comment and not aimed at you).</span></span></strong></span></span></p><p> <span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: #001f4b"><em>You wrote: </em></span></span><strong><em><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">The best example is our modern day Ardaas which we blindly believe in and recite all the times. Did our Gurus use this Ardaas?For me this is the true distortion of Gurbani and we do it several times a day. There are some threads on this forum on which this is discussed in details.</span></span></em></strong></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><strong><span style="color: #001f4b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">I agree Ardas not said from the heart is of course futile. But is there a deeper meaning in what you are saying here – i.e. the contents of the Sikh Ardas? </span></span></strong></span></span></p><p> <span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: #001f4b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">Earlier I wrote - Quote:</span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><strong><span style="color: #001f4b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">It is ironic to note, if it serves my memory right, that about 25 years ago, I heard from a source quite close to Prof Darshan Singh ji at the time that he had shunned his own brother living in UK for anti-gurmat activity. They may have reunited since then.</span></span></strong></span></span></p><p> <span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><em><span style="color: #001f4b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">Your response: </span></span></em><strong><em><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">It is interesting to notice that you are comparing the Sakhi of our Gurus with the life of Prof. Sahib. I have no idea what kind of Gurmat ideal it is based on or what Gurmat lesson does it serve. Feuds in the family are very common. Even if I had known about any feud in any famous person's life, it is not my right to talk about it. It does not serve any purpose.</span></span></em></strong></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><strong><span style="color: #001f4b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">I agree. I was a bit reluctant and thought a lot about it –may be it was wrong to do so – in which case I apologise. When a figure becomes so public that it affects the future of a whole Panth then that person’s personal life events may give us some guidance on the issues. I had only praise for professor sahib at the time I heard it. I was <u>commending</u> him on how strong he was (and perhaps still is) in his beliefs and ideals. The matter in question was not a family feud, as we normally see. His <em>roas</em> (grievance - for the want of a better word) was, as I understood it, on the basis of Gurmat. Ever since I have admired him a lot but I am yet to make up my mind on his current stand. When I wrote that I had nothing but praise for him – but no more of this.</span></span></strong></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: #001f4b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">Earlier I wrote - Quote: <strong>An incident is often quoted by ragis and kathavachak that once Guru Gobind Singh Ji instructed a Sikh to slap another for mispronouncing bani, thereby also distorting its meaning. I for one do not feel Guru Ji would have given any such instructions where the Sikh in question (a mere learner) <strong>mispronounced the word</strong> <strong>in innocence</strong>. <strong>Contrast this with Ram Rai</strong> <strong>who deliberately interfered with Gurbani </strong>for personal gain and acceptance at the mogul’s court. Some Sikhs view such an act even graver than killing someone. In the latter case one life is lost but in the former changing the contents, of what we consider the Ultimate and Eternal Guru, would distress millions of lives.</strong></span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><em><span style="color: #001f4b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">Your response: </span></span></em><strong><em><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">Once again you are showing how Sakhis and these kinds of stories are important for you. For me they do not serve any purpose. Understanding Gurbani is our only goal. Rest is all meaningless to me. </span></span></em></strong></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><strong><span style="color: #001f4b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">I agree, Gurbani above everything - but we may need other ‘tools’ - to use your term – to translate, interpret and understand Gurbani. This may also include learning from others including learned Sikhs like you, the much maligned (by some) Ragis, katha vachaks and those who call themselves Brahmgyanis – mine is a ‘means to an end’ approach. One’s research may even stretch to reading scriptures of other faiths (as you do) including mythological tales to give insight into Gurbani as such mythological names are mentioned in the SGGS. <u>I personally do not have a tendency to go beyond the Sikh scriptures</u> <u>and incidents from its history including the two I quoted.</u> Occasionally though, I may visit a Hindu or an Islamic site or a book to understand the meaning of a term. Many Sikh authors have written about how Sikhism is a distinct path and that we are not Hindus as many would wish us to be. Dr. Surinder Singh Kohli, a well known and respected author, in his book Ethics of Sikhism goes to great lengths explaining how Guru Nanak rejected most of the contents of the Vedas but drew some parallels in the Upnishads which relate more closely to the Sikh philosophy. Reading such matter urges one to learn more about the terms used in Hindu and Islamic scriptures.</span></span></strong></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><strong><span style="color: #001f4b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">Guru Granth sahib does not preclude one to learn from other sources as long as these sources are in kepping with Gurmat. That is why our Gurus incorporated the Bani of other saints in SGGS.</span></span></strong></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><strong><span style="color: #001f4b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">May I hastily add that I am not attached to any group or movement and neither am I a disciple of any Baba or Brahmgyani and do not even regularly visit a Gurdwara. I am a simple person who derives his living by a small consultancy, training chartered accountants and in my spare time, whenever the opportunity offers, perform <em>nishkaam</em> kirtan mostly at functions of family and friends. I have also recorded Gurbani which can be downloaded from my website. I am not entirely satisfied with my rendering and have a long way to go. Singing Gurbani is my first love and writing articles is certainly not my forte but I am mere novice at both. </span></span></strong></span></span></p><p> <span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><strong><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: black">When I said that I was a ‘sucker’ for Sakhis, it was made in a light hearted way (sorry, I am repeating myself). The underlying point was that if a Sakhi gives a good warm feeling - ‘feel good factor’ – it drives one to explore further and extract more from the richness of the treasure contained in SGGS. It is a means to an end (as I keep saying) and would not allow anything to detract me from the path of Sikhi – which is the belief in One and only One Lord and my only Satguru is SGGS. I cannot put it any clearer than that. I, too, distinguish between far-fetched incidents and those which are in line with Sikhi and Gurmat. The two, incidents I quoted were to ILLUSTRATE CONTRASTING SITUATIONS, even if you take one in a hypothetical manner. You appear to latch on the Ram Rai incident and ignore the main point of judging each case according to its merits – you may, of course, instead take more contemporary incidents to demonstrate the same point. </span></span></strong></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><strong><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: black">Finally, the last thing I want to do is to hurt your feelings – if I do so inadvertently may I seek your forgiveness, in advance, with folded hands. My intial comments weer made in all innocence and in good faith without any political colouring and they should be taken as such without making an issue of it. I hope that the above would conclude this discussion which I think has gone far too long and move to some other interesting issue.</span></span></strong></span></span></p><p> <span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><strong><span style="color: #001f4b"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">Warm regards</span></span></strong></span></span></p><p> <span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><strong><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: #001f4b">Rajinder Singh ‘Arshi’ </span></span></strong></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="arshi, post: 121606, member: 9479"] [B][COLOR=#001f4b][FONT=Verdana]Tejwant Singh ji[/FONT][/COLOR][/B] [B]<FONT color=#001f4b>[FONT=Verdana]Gurfateh<?"urn:[IMG]http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/ /></FONT></FONT></B></P><P> </P><P><B><FONT color=#001f4b><FONT face=Verdana>It’s the weekend again and I have had time to read your post and think more clearly than I would do during the hectic weekdays. My response is purely a general expression of my views and how I feel presently about certain things and in no way aimed at hurting anyone’s feelings – least of all yours. So please take my comments in that spirit.</FONT></FONT></B></P><P><B><FONT color=#001f4b><FONT face=Verdana></FONT></FONT></B></P><P><I><FONT color=#001f4b><FONT face=Verdana>You wrote: </FONT></FONT></I><B><I><FONT color=blue><FONT face=Verdana>Arshi ji,Gurbani has taught me to give the benefit of the doubt to others rather than doubting their actions. I will just leave it to that what I have put in <B>bold</B> above.</FONT></FONT></I></B></P><P> </P><P><B><FONT color=#001f4b><FONT face=Verdana>This discussion has gone on much longer than I expected. I am beginning to lose the thread of what we are debating here as I agree with a lot of what you are saying. It appears the main point of contention is the authenticity of the Ram Rai story. Let me try and take each point you have made in the latest post. My attempt will be only to clarify my position and not to criticise of anyone in particular. </FONT></FONT></B></P><P><B><FONT color=#001f4b><FONT face=Verdana></FONT></FONT></B></P><P><B><FONT color=#001f4b><FONT face=Verdana>In response to my earlier comment: <B>“I, too, am dedicated to Gurbani, through and through, and Guru Granth Sahib Ji is the Eternal Light I look towards to guide me on my spiritual journey.”</B></FONT></FONT></B><FONT color=#001f4b><FONT face=Verdana></FONT></FONT></P><P> </P><P><FONT color=#001f4b><FONT face=Verdana></FONT></FONT></P><P><I><FONT color=#001f4b><FONT face=Verdana>You responded: </FONT></FONT></I><B><I><FONT color=blue><FONT face=Verdana>I am glad to know that , however under the same token you also claimed in another post that you are a said,[/IMG][/FONT][/B][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana]</I></B>[/FONT] [FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][COLOR=#001f4b][B]First of all let me clarify the meaning of the term ‘sakhi’ as I understand it. "sakhi" is normally taken to mean an "historical account". The term does have a broader meaning, as stories contained in janam sakhis, many of them questionable. Some of these are considered [I]mangharan[/I]t – made up stories as they are passed on like folklores second, third hand etc. Then there are those we refer to as parables. Sometimes these are told to explain some of the mythological names mentioned in Gurbani but these must not distract us from the true essence of Gurbani in the way we must use it to run our day to day life. I am referring only to those sakhis which enhance our UNDERSTANDING OF GURBANI. [/B][/COLOR][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana][COLOR=#001f4b][B][/B][/COLOR][/FONT] [B][COLOR=#001f4b][FONT=Verdana]Guru Granth Sahib Ji mentions many names from the past, e.g. Brhama, Vishnu, Sudamaa, Krishen, Ajamal. Ganika – the full meaning of the verse (tuk) in Gurbani becomes clearer if we know a little bit more of the characters mentioned. They often allow us to understand the negative traits which inflict humans and the awareness of these gives an opportunity to appreciate the teachings of Gurbani and how we may apply these to eradicate or marginalise these negative traits. This approach does not take anything away from Gurbani – it enhances our understanding. Then there are parables with ‘morality’ conclusions – I posted a handful under the Sakhis section and these were well received. In response to one - [B]CONMEN: TWISTING THE TRUTH - Narayanjot ji wrote: [/B]“Please write more! I am a hopeless fan of morality stories told this way.” SO AM I.[/FONT][/COLOR][/B] [B][COLOR=#001f4b][FONT=Verdana][/FONT][/COLOR][/B] [B][COLOR=#001f4b][FONT=Verdana]When I wrote: [I]"[B]True, I am a sucker for Sakhis but only as long as they deliver a message, a moral in line with Gurmat." [/B][/I][B]I did so in thesame spirit to which Narayanjot ji alluded in her post. In fact her comments were actually at the back of mind when I wrote being a sucker for morality sakhis. I admire Narayanjot ji’s style of communicating and am not ashamed to even borrow some of her phrases and I did point out one such phrase to her which I liked. [/B][/FONT][/COLOR][/B] [B][COLOR=#001f4b][FONT=Verdana]Aman ji also appreciated a Sakhi with a moral: FOUR THIEVES AND THE SIMPLETON and this is what he wrote: [/FONT][/COLOR][/B] [B][COLOR=#001f4b][FONT=Verdana][/FONT][/COLOR][/B] [COLOR=#001f4b][FONT=Verdana][/FONT][/COLOR] [B][I][COLOR=#001f4b][FONT=Verdana]"Arshi ji, your parable truly sums up the present state of Sikhs... nobody could have summed up the situation better..." <?xml:namespace prefix = v ns = "urn::vml" /><v:shapetype id=_x0000_t75 stroked="f" filled="f" path="m@4@5l@4@11@9@11@9@5xe" o:preferrelative="t" o:spt="75" coordsize="21600,21600"><v:stroke joinstyle="miter"></v:stroke><v:formulas><v:f eqn="if lineDrawn pixelLineWidth 0"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @0 1 0"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum 0 0 @1"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @2 1 2"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelWidth"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelHeight"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @0 0 1"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @6 1 2"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelWidth"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @8 21600 0"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelHeight"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @10 21600 0"></v:f></v:formulas><v:path o:connecttype="rect" gradientshapeok="t" o:extrusionok="f"></v:path><o:lock aspectratio="t" v:ext="edit"></o:lock></v:shapetype><v:shape style="WIDTH: 24.75pt; HEIGHT: 18.75pt" id=_x0000_i1025 alt="" type="#_x0000_t75"><v:imagedata src="file:///C:\DOCUME~1\RAJ\LOCALS~1\Temp\msohtml1\01\clip_image001.gif" o:href="http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/images/smilies/NOTWORTH.GIF"></v:imagedata></v:shape>[/FONT][/COLOR][/I][/B] [FONT=Verdana][COLOR=#001f4b][B]Where these are used to understand or to explain the teachings of SGGS, I see no harm in them but the paramount source, scripture, Guru, Guide and guiding light [U]is[/U] SGGS.[/B][/COLOR][/FONT] [I][COLOR=blue][FONT=Verdana]You wrote:[B] SGGS is a stand alone tool box. it needs no Sakhis to justify anything in it and secondly how Guru Har Rai not being forgiving but being a punisher- as you believe in the Sakhi, [B]delivers a message, a moral in line with Gurmat. [/B]It seems quite contradictory to the behaviour of one who has attained sehaj.[/B][/FONT][/COLOR][/I] [B][COLOR=#001f4b][FONT=Verdana]I prefer to use the term incident here as ‘sakhi’ (as explained above) often has fictitious connotations. You keep on mentioning ‘sehaj’. Many non-Sikhs accuse Guru Gobind Singh Ji of lacking it (quite wrongly of course) when he lifted the sword. True Guru Har Rai Ji was tender hearted but that does not mean he would not discipline wayward individuals when he saw a serious transgression of Sikhi Sidhant. [U]If[/U] the story is right then the stand he took demonstrates sehaj rather than anger. It is not easy to breakaway from one’s children and mortals like us are bound by moh (atachment) of our lived ones. I, from the top of my head, just cited two incidents as contrasting examples and you, forgive me, are taking these as conclusive and final say on the matter. I believed in both the incidents but it does not rule out that I may be wrong as I do take your point that our Gurus must not be seen or shown as angry revengeful persons which, I agree with you, they certainly were not.[/FONT][/COLOR][/B] [B][COLOR=#001f4b][FONT=Verdana][/FONT][/COLOR][/B] [I][FONT=Verdana]You wrote[B][COLOR=blue]: I do not regret anything in the past because I believe in Ik Ong Kaar's hukam. The Source decided about my quest. I never have any say in it.[/COLOR][/B][/FONT][/I] [I][FONT=Verdana][B][COLOR=blue][/COLOR][/B][/FONT][/I] [B][COLOR=#001f4b][FONT=Verdana]I agree and I did add that only with his blessings (gur parsad) do we tread the true path (sacha marg). It was the human in me talking when I wrote this. I did observe, I was opening out my heart to you – i.e. comments made without being on guard.[/FONT][/COLOR][/B] [B][COLOR=#001f4b][FONT=Verdana][/FONT][/COLOR][/B] [COLOR=#001f4b][FONT=Verdana]Earlier I wrote: [B]“I often try and find time to read books by learned Sikh scholars, e.g. Bhai Gurdas ji, Bhai Vir Singh ji, Gyani Maskin ji to enhance my understanding of Gurbani and of course also [I]itihaas[/I] as it often gives the background to enrich that understanding. This includes Bani of Dasam Pita (e.g. Jaap Sahib, Savaiaye)”[/B][/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=#001f4b][FONT=Verdana][/FONT][/COLOR] [I][COLOR=#001f4b][FONT=Verdana]And you responded:[/FONT][/COLOR][/I] [I][COLOR=#001f4b][FONT=Verdana][/FONT][/COLOR][/I] [B][I][COLOR=blue][FONT=Verdana]Knowledge is always good and that is the meaning of being a Sikh but for anyone of us to claim what our Dasam Pita wrote is nothing but second guessing him which is not in my realm of understanding of Gurbani. The fact is that Bhai Gurdas' vaarans were not added in the SGGS by our Gurus and then we claim that our Gurus said that his vaarans are the key to understanding Gurbani as if SGGS were under lock and key. Gurbani gives us the tools for critical thinking. Believing in the above, as many do is second guessing our Gurus.Having said that Bhai Gurdas' poetry is quite interesting. Bhai Vir Singh was a great scholar and in fact a close friend of my grand father and Prof. Puran Singh was my grand dad's - Pita ji's first cousin, his Bhua's son. When he returned from ffice:smarttags" /><?xml::[IMG]http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/ /><st1:country-region w:st=[/IMG]</st1:country-region><st1:place w:st="on">Japan as a Buddhist, Pita ji, along with Bhai Vir Singh ji were instrumental in bringing him back to the Sikhi fold.[/FONT][/COLOR][/I][/B] [B][I][COLOR=blue][FONT=Verdana][/FONT][/COLOR][/I][/B] [B][COLOR=#001f4b][FONT=Verdana]I did not expect the above statement to draw any comments – I do not see as having said anything unusual or unworthy of a Sikh. I personally did not mention any keys opening locks. All I wrote was that any works of a scholar which helps one in translating, interpreting and understanding Gurbani is a good thing. Now that you mention it, true there is a common belief that Bhai Gurdas Ji’s works are regarded as a key to understanding Gurbani and some say these were not included because Bhai Sahib was given to houmai (egotism) when conferred with excessive praise over his works. I do occasionally refer to his writings[/FONT][/COLOR][/B] [B][COLOR=#001f4b][FONT=Verdana][/FONT][/COLOR][/B] [COLOR=#001f4b][FONT=Verdana]Earlier I wrote - Quote:[/FONT][/COLOR] [B][COLOR=#001f4b][FONT=Verdana]I will not let politics sway me from my path unless I consider the matter is directly blocking my path towards spirituality. [/FONT][/COLOR][/B] [COLOR=#001f4b][FONT=Verdana][/FONT][/COLOR] [I][COLOR=#001f4b][FONT=Verdana]And you responded:[/FONT][/COLOR][/I] [B][I][COLOR=blue][FONT=Verdana]I beg to differ with you. Politics- Miri is part and parcel of spirituality- Piri. Miri- Piri are two tracks on which the Gurmat trains runs without one or the other the train has no way to move ahead.[/FONT][/COLOR][/I][/B] [B][COLOR=#001f4b][FONT=Verdana]This was a personal opinion in that I would venture into [I]miri[/I] only when I feel my conscious allows it – the concept of [I]miri piri[/I] does not mean that one jumps headlong into every dispute without first examining the facts – this is a general statement – not a political one. But, overall I agree with what you are saying.[/FONT][/COLOR][/B] [B][COLOR=#001f4b][FONT=Verdana][/FONT][/COLOR][/B] [COLOR=#001f4b][FONT=Verdana]Earlier I wrote - quote:[/FONT][/COLOR] [B][COLOR=#001f4b][FONT=Verdana]Faith is, to a greater extent a personal matter, and the trouble with organised ‘religion’ is that it sometimes sucks people in to act against their nature and their inner voice[/FONT][/COLOR][/B] [COLOR=#001f4b][FONT=Verdana][/FONT][/COLOR] [I][COLOR=#001f4b][FONT=Verdana]And you responded:[/FONT][/COLOR][/I] [B][I][COLOR=blue][FONT=Verdana]Please forgive my bluntness but Sikhi is not a faith but a way of life for me. Faith makes people blind. Sikhi helps us open our inner eyes. Sikhi is not a religion either. Organised religions demand external impositions where as Sikhi breeds internal manifestation.[/FONT][/COLOR][/I][/B] [B][COLOR=#001f4b][FONT=Verdana]Tejwant ji, you can be as blunt as you like – I do not mind a bit as you also confer immense praise on some of my writings. It works both ways, I suppose. I will not accuse you of lacking sehaj either – quite to the contrary it is me who is not always in control of my feelings and I am still coming to terms with the Five Thieves. Faith is what we believe in are the values which we adopt to live our life. Let us not split hair on the use of terminology – ‘substance over terminology’ is the correct approach in my opinion.[/FONT][/COLOR][/B] [COLOR=#001f4b][FONT=Verdana]Earlier I wrote- Quote:[/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=#001f4b][FONT=Verdana][/FONT][/COLOR] [B][COLOR=#001f4b][FONT=Verdana]I only quoted two examples from the top of my head and have no reason to question the action of the both the Gurus under the circumstances. Interestingly, [B]IJ Singh ji[/B] has also quoted one of the incidents in his article (Tribal justice and excommunication). [/FONT][/COLOR][/B] [B][COLOR=#001f4b][FONT=Verdana][/FONT][/COLOR][/B] [I][COLOR=#001f4b][FONT=Verdana]You responded;[/FONT][/COLOR][/I] [B][I][COLOR=blue][FONT=Verdana]“Guru Har Rai shunned his own son Ram Rai because he had changed a line of gurbani in deference to Emperor Aurangzeb. Guru Har Rai shunned his own son Ram Rai because he had changed a line of gurbani in deference to Emperor Aurangzeb.”[/FONT][/COLOR][/I][/B] [B][COLOR=blue][FONT=Verdana][/FONT][/COLOR][/B] [B][COLOR=blue][FONT=Verdana][/FONT][/COLOR][/B] [B][COLOR=blue][FONT=Verdana][/FONT][/COLOR][/B] [B][I][COLOR=blue][FONT=Verdana]I am sorry to say but it gives the impression that y[/FONT][/COLOR][/I][/B][B][I][COLOR=blue][FONT=Verdana]ou did not read the reasoning given in my missive about the Sakhi and also you missed the whole point what Dr.[/FONT][/COLOR][/I][/B][B][COLOR=blue][FONT=Verdana] I.J. Singh is trying to make. [/FONT][/COLOR][/B] [B][I][COLOR=blue][FONT=Verdana]Dr. I.J. Singh is a good friend of mine and we interact via emails and telephone calls quite often. I sent him our interaction about the Sakhi and asked him the same. If you PM me your email address, I can send you my email to him and also ask him if I can divulge anything from his because he did mention that he agrees with me and the two Sakhis were not part of the original draft. [/FONT][/COLOR][/I][/B] [B][I][COLOR=blue][FONT=Verdana][/FONT][/COLOR][/I][/B] [B][COLOR=#001f4b][FONT=Verdana]I was very impressed with Dr IJ Singh’s article and I said so in that thread. My only point was to confirm the popularity of that incident which is well documented in many writings. For example, Satbir Singh ji gives a long account of it in his volume on the Seventh Nanak ‘Nirbhau Nirvair’. Whether one believes in it or not is a different matter and that I had also quoted it in the same spirit, i.e. as an illustration of how each incident should be judged on its merits. One can quite easily take another illustration that suit one’s belief. The two events came to my mind when posting – however you have every right to agree or disagree.[/FONT][/COLOR][/B] [B][COLOR=#001f4b][FONT=Verdana][I][/I][/FONT][/COLOR][/B] [B][COLOR=#001f4b][FONT=Verdana]I think a discussion on an open forum can sometimes veer off course and wrong impressions taken as others on the forum may intervene and complicate the issues. This is why I do not post often on the form – in fact most of my posts are in response to your queries and frankly – no disrespect to you – I would like to put some restraint on these and concentrate on researching and understanding Gurbani – I have said this before and am perhaps labouring on the thought. It will be a pleasure to send you a PM with my email ID. [/FONT][/COLOR][/B] [B][COLOR=#001f4b][FONT=Verdana][/FONT][/COLOR][/B] [I][COLOR=#001f4b][FONT=Verdana]You wrote [/FONT][/COLOR][/I][B][I][COLOR=blue][FONT=Verdana]I was a bit surprised when you caught the moment and were quick to mention about Ram Rai's Sakhi whereas his wonderful essay is the blue print on Miri. I have posted my response on Sikhchic.com regarding this.[/FONT][/COLOR][/I][/B] [B][I][COLOR=blue][FONT=Verdana][/FONT][/COLOR][/I][/B] [B][COLOR=#001f4b][FONT=Verdana]I have already commended the article under that thread – please also see my comments above. [/FONT][/COLOR][/B][B][FONT=Verdana]I am glad to note that Dr IJ Singh is a personal friend of yours – you are blessed with good company and also distinguished pedigree going back to the times of Bhai Vir Singh ji. I come from a rather humble background but my father was a true exponent of the three pillars of Naam, japo, kirat karo and wand shako. He worked like any kirati and performed nishkam kitan, in his spare time, for nearly 70 years based on classical ragas. My father-in-law also earned his living from honest kirat but devoted his whole life to the study of SGGS and knew it virtually by heart. He was ‘feared’ by learned scholars and [I]Granthees [/I]visiting <st1:country-region w:st="on">Kenya</st1:country-region> and later <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:country-region w:st="on">UK</st1:country-region>. I was able to learn a little from them but should have done more but it was not to be as we are all governed by His Ordnance.[/FONT][/B] [B][FONT=Verdana][/FONT][/B] [I][COLOR=#001f4b][FONT=Verdana]Earlier I wrote - Quote: [/FONT][/COLOR][/I][B][COLOR=#001f4b][FONT=Verdana]Yes ten Gurus and a single [I]jyot[/I] but each showed unique characteristics of its own to give us a complete and rounded picture of life and how to live it. Otherwise what was the need of the successors?[/FONT][/COLOR][/B] [B][COLOR=#001f4b][FONT=Verdana][/FONT][/COLOR][/B] [I][COLOR=#001f4b][FONT=Verdana]You responded:[/FONT][/COLOR][/I][B][I][COLOR=blue][FONT=Verdana]I agree with you but each characteristic does not mean contradiction of Gurmat ideals but the compliment and evolution of them with time that only happened in Sikhi which is the pragmatic way of life and did not stop in time unlike other religions who offered nothing but dogmas which stopped in that time zone. No dogmatic religion needs any successors. The fight,hatred, disdain and the division between Sunnis and Shias is the proof of that.[/FONT][/COLOR][/I][/B] [B][I][COLOR=blue][FONT=Verdana][/FONT][/COLOR][/I][/B] [B][COLOR=#001f4b][FONT=Verdana]Whether there is a contradiction of ideas is not for me to decide. True, we can have a personal [I]drishtikon[/I] of viewing things and sometimes our logic may be faulted but it is only human to err. With time and Guru’s blessings I hope to move on from any such ‘hang ups’ due to a defect in the way I think. I am only at the nursery level of my spiritual quest. Guru is [I]sarab kala samrath[/I] and can never be faulted. [/FONT][/COLOR][/B] [B][COLOR=#001f4b][FONT=Verdana][/FONT][/COLOR][/B] [COLOR=#001f4b][FONT=Verdana]Earlier I wrote - Quote: [B]I guess that the Seventh Nanak applied more exacting standards in the case of his son as others may see it as nepotism, if he didn’t. In the case of Guru Amar Das, Baba Dattoo ji was the son of the second Guru whom he had served for many years. Perhaps Guru Ji took into account Dattoo Ji’s disappointment in not getting the Gorged which he felt was rightfully (his viewpoint) his. [/B][/FONT][/COLOR] [B][COLOR=#001f4b][FONT=Verdana][/FONT][/COLOR][/B] [I][COLOR=#001f4b][FONT=Verdana]You responded:[/FONT][/COLOR][/I] [B][I][COLOR=blue][FONT=Verdana]Your above statement confirms that you are a sucker for Sakhis whether they compliment Gurmat ideals or not.[/FONT][/COLOR][/I][/B] [B][I][COLOR=blue][FONT=Verdana][/FONT][/COLOR][/I][/B] [B][COLOR=#001f4b][FONT=Verdana]Tejwant ji, I must confess this comment took me aback a bit. I have already clarified the point above, in great detail, i.e. a distinction between actual historical events and parables. Even if a parable gives an insight into understanding some aspect of life it cannot be a bad thing. For someone to say, he wishes to learn from others, even from a simpleton like me, and then make such comments puzzles me. But, I am not offended as I do believe you are a better Sikh than me and know more than me – I am only a lowly person full of faults and burn in the fire of duality. I can only pray: [/FONT][/COLOR][/B] [B][COLOR=#001f4b][FONT=Verdana][/FONT][/COLOR][/B] [I][COLOR=#339966][FONT=Arial Black]Man's sins are as immeasurable as the water that fills the seas and the oceans.[/FONT][/COLOR][/I] [I][COLOR=#339966][FONT=Arial Black][/FONT][/COLOR][/I] [I][COLOR=#339966][FONT=Arial Black]O Lord take mercy upon our souls and extend a little pity to keep this mankind (laden with sins) afloat; for without Thy Grace, which can keep stones afloat, it will for sure drown. [/FONT][/COLOR][/I] [I][COLOR=#339966][FONT=Arial Black][/FONT][/COLOR][/I] [I][COLOR=#339966][FONT=Arial Black]Man's soul burns in the fire of ignorance and sin; his innerself is being shredded by unseen scissors of worldly desires and vain pursuits,[/FONT][/COLOR][/I] [I][COLOR=#339966][FONT=Arial Black][/FONT][/COLOR][/I] [I][COLOR=#339966][FONT=Arial Black]Pray Nanak that man may come to terms with the Lord's Order so that he may [B]forever live blissfully. ([/B][/FONT][/COLOR][/I][B][I][COLOR=#339966][FONT=Arial Black]gao[U]rh[/U]ee chay[U]t[/U]ee mehlaa 1 . [/FONT][/COLOR][/I][/B][B][I][COLOR=#339966][FONT=Arial Black]SGGS156 - my humble[/FONT][/COLOR][/I][/B][I][COLOR=#339966][FONT=Arial Black] [B]translation)[/B][/FONT][/COLOR][/I] [I][COLOR=#339966][FONT=Arial Black][B][/B][/FONT][/COLOR][/I] [I][FONT=Arial Black][/FONT][/I] [COLOR=#001f4b][FONT=Verdana]Earlier I wrote - Quote: [/FONT][/COLOR] [B][COLOR=#001f4b][FONT=Verdana]Interfering with Gurbani is a very grave offence and that too of a Guru other than Baba Dattoo’s father. Would he have taken a more lenient attitude if Baba Ram Rai had misquoted Guru Har Rai Ji? I do not know! Whether a course of action is right or wrong also depends on the times and circumstances ruling then. Hundreds of years later we may come to a different and even wrong deduction.[/FONT][/COLOR][/B] [B][COLOR=#001f4b][FONT=Verdana][/FONT][/COLOR][/B] [COLOR=#001f4b][FONT=Verdana][/FONT][/COLOR] [I][COLOR=#001f4b][FONT=Verdana]You responded: [/FONT][/COLOR][/I][B][I][COLOR=blue][FONT=Verdana]Again, this is nothing but a speculation and a blind belief in something which has nothing to do with Sikhi.[/FONT][/COLOR][/I][/B] [B][COLOR=#001f4b][FONT=Verdana]‘Blind belief’! What I am saying is pure common sense and does not require any depth of understanding of any scripture to appreciate that but you have a right to your opinion and I to mine. Let us end it that. The current events prove how people are unable to interpret events and Gurbani correctly and allow themselves to be drawn into the whirlpool of what they claim to be logic. As long as something suits their logic or purpose is considered correct and everything else is false!! Self interest seems to override Truth these days. I am afraid there is a tendency that many do not check out the facts on the touchstone of Gurbani but do so on the touchstone of politics and self- interest (this is a general comment and not aimed at you).[/FONT][/COLOR][/B] [FONT=Verdana][COLOR=#001f4b][I]You wrote: [/I][/COLOR][/FONT][B][I][COLOR=blue][FONT=Verdana]The best example is our modern day Ardaas which we blindly believe in and recite all the times. Did our Gurus use this Ardaas?For me this is the true distortion of Gurbani and we do it several times a day. There are some threads on this forum on which this is discussed in details.[/FONT][/COLOR][/I][/B] [B][I][COLOR=blue][FONT=Verdana][/FONT][/COLOR][/I][/B] [B][COLOR=#001f4b][FONT=Verdana]I agree Ardas not said from the heart is of course futile. But is there a deeper meaning in what you are saying here – i.e. the contents of the Sikh Ardas? [/FONT][/COLOR][/B] [COLOR=#001f4b][FONT=Verdana]Earlier I wrote - Quote:[/FONT][/COLOR] [B][COLOR=#001f4b][FONT=Verdana]It is ironic to note, if it serves my memory right, that about 25 years ago, I heard from a source quite close to Prof Darshan Singh ji at the time that he had shunned his own brother living in UK for anti-gurmat activity. They may have reunited since then.[/FONT][/COLOR][/B] [COLOR=#001f4b][FONT=Verdana][/FONT][/COLOR] [I][COLOR=#001f4b][FONT=Verdana]Your response: [/FONT][/COLOR][/I][B][I][COLOR=blue][FONT=Verdana]It is interesting to notice that you are comparing the Sakhi of our Gurus with the life of Prof. Sahib. I have no idea what kind of Gurmat ideal it is based on or what Gurmat lesson does it serve. Feuds in the family are very common. Even if I had known about any feud in any famous person's life, it is not my right to talk about it. It does not serve any purpose.[/FONT][/COLOR][/I][/B] [B][I][COLOR=blue][FONT=Verdana][/FONT][/COLOR][/I][/B] [B][COLOR=#001f4b][FONT=Verdana]I agree. I was a bit reluctant and thought a lot about it –may be it was wrong to do so – in which case I apologise. When a figure becomes so public that it affects the future of a whole Panth then that person’s personal life events may give us some guidance on the issues. I had only praise for professor sahib at the time I heard it. I was [U]commending[/U] him on how strong he was (and perhaps still is) in his beliefs and ideals. The matter in question was not a family feud, as we normally see. His [I]roas[/I] (grievance - for the want of a better word) was, as I understood it, on the basis of Gurmat. Ever since I have admired him a lot but I am yet to make up my mind on his current stand. When I wrote that I had nothing but praise for him – but no more of this.[/FONT][/COLOR][/B] [B][COLOR=#001f4b][FONT=Verdana][/FONT][/COLOR][/B] [COLOR=#001f4b][FONT=Verdana]Earlier I wrote - Quote: [B]An incident is often quoted by ragis and kathavachak that once Guru Gobind Singh Ji instructed a Sikh to slap another for mispronouncing bani, thereby also distorting its meaning. I for one do not feel Guru Ji would have given any such instructions where the Sikh in question (a mere learner) [B]mispronounced the word[/B] [B]in innocence[/B]. [B]Contrast this with Ram Rai[/B] [B]who deliberately interfered with Gurbani [/B]for personal gain and acceptance at the mogul’s court. Some Sikhs view such an act even graver than killing someone. In the latter case one life is lost but in the former changing the contents, of what we consider the Ultimate and Eternal Guru, would distress millions of lives.[/B][/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=#001f4b][FONT=Verdana][B][/B][/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=#001f4b][FONT=Verdana][/FONT][/COLOR] [I][COLOR=#001f4b][FONT=Verdana]Your response: [/FONT][/COLOR][/I][B][I][COLOR=blue][FONT=Verdana]Once again you are showing how Sakhis and these kinds of stories are important for you. For me they do not serve any purpose. Understanding Gurbani is our only goal. Rest is all meaningless to me. [/FONT][/COLOR][/I][/B] [B][I][COLOR=blue][FONT=Verdana][/FONT][/COLOR][/I][/B] [COLOR=#001f4b][FONT=Verdana][/FONT][/COLOR] [B][COLOR=#001f4b][FONT=Verdana]I agree, Gurbani above everything - but we may need other ‘tools’ - to use your term – to translate, interpret and understand Gurbani. This may also include learning from others including learned Sikhs like you, the much maligned (by some) Ragis, katha vachaks and those who call themselves Brahmgyanis – mine is a ‘means to an end’ approach. One’s research may even stretch to reading scriptures of other faiths (as you do) including mythological tales to give insight into Gurbani as such mythological names are mentioned in the SGGS. [U]I personally do not have a tendency to go beyond the Sikh scriptures[/U] [U]and incidents from its history including the two I quoted.[/U] Occasionally though, I may visit a Hindu or an Islamic site or a book to understand the meaning of a term. Many Sikh authors have written about how Sikhism is a distinct path and that we are not Hindus as many would wish us to be. Dr. Surinder Singh Kohli, a well known and respected author, in his book Ethics of Sikhism goes to great lengths explaining how Guru Nanak rejected most of the contents of the Vedas but drew some parallels in the Upnishads which relate more closely to the Sikh philosophy. Reading such matter urges one to learn more about the terms used in Hindu and Islamic scriptures.[/FONT][/COLOR][/B] [B][COLOR=#001f4b][FONT=Verdana][/FONT][/COLOR][/B] [B][COLOR=#001f4b][FONT=Verdana][/FONT][/COLOR][/B] [B][COLOR=#001f4b][FONT=Verdana]Guru Granth sahib does not preclude one to learn from other sources as long as these sources are in kepping with Gurmat. That is why our Gurus incorporated the Bani of other saints in SGGS.[/FONT][/COLOR][/B] [B][COLOR=#001f4b][FONT=Verdana][/FONT][/COLOR][/B] [B][COLOR=#001f4b][FONT=Verdana][/FONT][/COLOR][/B] [B][COLOR=#001f4b][FONT=Verdana]May I hastily add that I am not attached to any group or movement and neither am I a disciple of any Baba or Brahmgyani and do not even regularly visit a Gurdwara. I am a simple person who derives his living by a small consultancy, training chartered accountants and in my spare time, whenever the opportunity offers, perform [I]nishkaam[/I] kirtan mostly at functions of family and friends. I have also recorded Gurbani which can be downloaded from my website. I am not entirely satisfied with my rendering and have a long way to go. Singing Gurbani is my first love and writing articles is certainly not my forte but I am mere novice at both. [/FONT][/COLOR][/B] [B][COLOR=#001f4b][FONT=Verdana][/FONT][/COLOR][/B] [B][FONT=Verdana][COLOR=black]When I said that I was a ‘sucker’ for Sakhis, it was made in a light hearted way (sorry, I am repeating myself). The underlying point was that if a Sakhi gives a good warm feeling - ‘feel good factor’ – it drives one to explore further and extract more from the richness of the treasure contained in SGGS. It is a means to an end (as I keep saying) and would not allow anything to detract me from the path of Sikhi – which is the belief in One and only One Lord and my only Satguru is SGGS. I cannot put it any clearer than that. I, too, distinguish between far-fetched incidents and those which are in line with Sikhi and Gurmat. The two, incidents I quoted were to ILLUSTRATE CONTRASTING SITUATIONS, even if you take one in a hypothetical manner. You appear to latch on the Ram Rai incident and ignore the main point of judging each case according to its merits – you may, of course, instead take more contemporary incidents to demonstrate the same point. [/COLOR][/FONT][/B] [B][FONT=Verdana][COLOR=black][/COLOR][/FONT][/B] [B][FONT=Verdana][COLOR=black][/COLOR][/FONT][/B] [B][FONT=Verdana][COLOR=black]Finally, the last thing I want to do is to hurt your feelings – if I do so inadvertently may I seek your forgiveness, in advance, with folded hands. My intial comments weer made in all innocence and in good faith without any political colouring and they should be taken as such without making an issue of it. I hope that the above would conclude this discussion which I think has gone far too long and move to some other interesting issue.[/COLOR][/FONT][/B] [B][COLOR=#001f4b][FONT=Verdana]Warm regards[/FONT][/COLOR][/B] [B][FONT=Verdana][COLOR=#001f4b]Rajinder Singh ‘Arshi’ [/COLOR][/FONT][/B] [/FONT] [/FONT] [/QUOTE]
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