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Action Against Those Honoring Ragi Likely

Discussion in 'Hard Talk' started by spnadmin, Feb 4, 2010.

  1. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    ] Action against those honouring Ragi likely


    http://epaper. hindustantimes. com/ArticleText. aspx?article= 04_02_2010_ 002_010&kword=&mode=1


    Akal Takht Jathedar Gurbachan Singh on Wednesday hinted at summoning certain Panthic leaders on the charge of honouring the excommunicated Prof Darshan Singh Ragi at a congregation in Chandigarh on Tuesday.
    Speaking to HT, Giani Gurbachan Singh said he was collecting details on what happened at the event, adding action would certainly be taken on receiving a formal complaint in this regard.

    In a hukamnama (edict) issued recently, five Sikh high priests had ordained the Sikh community to sever all relations with Ragi as he had been excommunicated from the Sikh Panth on the charge of blasphemy.

    The clergy had also warned of stringent action against those who did not follow the edict and established any contact with Ragi.

    However, disregarding the edict, several leaders of splinter Akali factions and hardliners, besides some "intellectuals", not only shared food with Ragi but also honoured him.

    Among those who attended the function were Haryana Sikh Gurdwara Parbandhak Committee (ad hoc) leader Didar Singh Nalvi, Justice Ajit Singh Bains (retd), Giani Jagtar Singh, advocate Navkiran Singh, Satnam Singh Paonta Sahib of the Dal Khalsa, Jaswant Singh Mann, Prof Gurdarshan Singh Dhillon, retired IAS officer Gurtej Singh, and Rajinder Singh of the Shiromani Khalsa Panchayat.
     
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  3. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    My thoughts.

    Should any of us be surprised that this particular group has been identifed as targets for Round 2?

    If the jathedars continue in this way a schism won't be necessary. It won't even be worth talking about, or thinking about.
     
  4. arshi

    arshi United Kingdom
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    Sadh Sangat Jio

    <?"urn:<img src=" />
    Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh


    This is what we were afraid of – the Division of the mainstream Panth – just because of ego, be it of one person or a group of persons. If the cream of the Panth, current Jathedars and ex-Jathedar(s) cannot resolve their differences what chance do others – lesser mortals – have.


    No doubt there are a lot of individuals on both sides (the <I>tammasha</I> crowd) of the argument giving fire to the issue which can be resolved amicably, but only if there is will and if we have true respect of the Living Light Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, which we claim to have!!!


    No one person or a group of persons is above the Panth. Someone has to swallow his ego. May sanity prevail in the end! Let us all pray.


    Humbly

    Rajinder Singh ‘Arshi’
     
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    #3 arshi, Feb 4, 2010
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  5. kee_jaana_mein_kaun

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  6. Lee

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    I think schizm is inevitable, it has happend in all religons, and I'm supprised that it has taken this long for the signs to meterialise.
     
    #5 Lee, Feb 4, 2010
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  7. arshi

    arshi United Kingdom
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    <TABLE style="BORDER-TOP-WIDTH: 0px" class=tborder border=0 cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=1 width="100%" align=center><TBODY><TR title="Post 119872" vAlign=top><TD class=alt1>


    </TD></TR><TR><TD class=thead colSpan=2></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

    Lee Ji
    <?"urn:<img src=" />
    I have been a Sikh for a very long time and cannot be resigned to, with due respect, a <I>fete accompli</I> conclusion as easily as you seem to have accepted. I think the main problem is that of ego and dominance and both sides are locked in this situation because of external forces and people with vested interests spurring both sides to prolong the stalemate and create unrest in the Panth.

    I am sure if Professor Ji (whom I respect a lot) was alone in this he would have by now climbed up the stairs to Akal Takht (and climbed down the ego ladder) and the whole matter would have be resolved by now. But there are protagonists who do not want this to happen and are hell bent on dividing the Khalsa Panth. Some breakaways are inevitable, I admit, due to ambitions of Gurudom such as the Nirankaris and Radha Soamis – good riddance I would say. However, when the division of the mainstream Khalsa Panth is concerned we must take matters much more seriously and do everything possible to avoid it. We must not let the interests of one man or a group of men jeopardize the interests of the whole Nation. Humility is the mainstay of the House of Nanak and those who preach it as a means of earning a living must be seen to practice it as well. If I felt I was putting the Unity of the Panth at risk, I would do every thing within my means to redress the situation, even if it meant humiliation and dishonour for me. Real Sikhs have sacrificed their lives for the good and the survival of the Nation, but here we are witnessing individuals doing all they can to keep their egos intact. In my later years of life I find all this extremely distressing to the point of even justified anger at times. All the pride in being a Sikh with which I have grown up with is being eroded way by the current thought process of the modernizers and the wannabe Sikhs. It is so very depressing.

    Rajinder Singh ‘Arshi’
     
    #6 arshi, Feb 5, 2010
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  8. Lee

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    Arshi ji,

    I feel for you my freind, i'm a relativly new Sikh, a white none Punjabi too boot and so my views are bound to be reflective of both this and the culture that I have grown up in, as are we all effeted.

    Your words only show me that what I say has more truth to it though I'm afraid. Your words show me that for each Sikh that thinks like you there are bound to be others that think otherwise. Our history shows us what happens when religous aderhents of the same faith start to disagree with accepted dogma, schizim is inevitable.

    Sir Please realise that I say all of this not because I am uncareing, but because when we look back on our history this particular story has always ended in the same way. Unless mankind undergoes a rapid paradigim shift then I feel Sikhi will also schizm.

    You say:

    'In my later years of life I find all this extremely distressing to the point of even justified anger at times.'

    It is such words that aid my thoughts in this matter. Imagine, and I do not belive it is hard to do so, that if you feel 'justified anger' then it is not impossible for Sikhs who feel contray to you to feel the same.

    What happens when two religous factions of the same faith, who both feel justified in their stance, and also start to feel 'justifabley angry'. This is actualy a dangerous position for a Sikh to be in, as we know Guru ji tells us that when all else has failed then it is rght to pick up the sword. This coupled with 'justified anger' can only lead to Sikh upon Sikh vioence.

    Yes sir, I agree, there will be many Sikhs out there who will indeed 'take matters much more seriously and do everything possible to avoid it.' Alas there will also be the same on the other side.

    There will be trouble, there may be violence, but Sikhi, like every other 'path' that has schizemed will survive.

    I'm so sorry Arshi ji, I am resigned, but I think to deny the possibilty of this is rather like the preverbiable ostrich.

     
    #7 Lee, Feb 5, 2010
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  9. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    In the present context..Firts it was Gurbaksh Singh Kala Afghana...his books were "banned" (nothing happeend becasue the Internet is not controlled by the priests/badal/sgpc)..he was then "excommunicated" (to reinforce the SIN aspect of reading his banned books..something which doesnt affect many since SIN in Gurmatt is not accepted this way...so his books continue to be printed..downloaded..read. ..sold widely )
    Next was the Media - in the picture..Rozana Spokesman..which initially as a Monthly magazine began to speak of the many ills of derawaad, saadhs, bogus holy men, etc etc in Sikhi...and when its readership increased to allow it to become a DAILY..the Danger Bells tolled for Badal/sgpc/saadh/derawaad nexus...the Priests first called for a BAN (making it a sin for good sikhs to read - over time this has become a bone stuck in their throats becasue the Freedom of the Press and various other Acts are being used by the newspaper management to sue the priests in Indian Courts - this FEAR made them RECANT that they NEVER actually Banned the "NEWSPAPER'..only its EDITOR Joginder Singh !! a turnaround or U-turn in any word ) Next badal moved to deny any Govt adverts to the newspaper...and then the SAADHS under ashitosh broke and damaged its offices all over Punjab trying to force its closure...NOTHING WORKED..due to the Loyal READERS...the Rozana Spokesman has not only BEATEN its RIVAL from jalandhar (pro badal who also had a HUKMNAMAH issued agianst it by Jathedar ranjit Singh..BUT Lo and Behold in THAT CASE..Badal GOT the JATHEDAR REMOVED !!!..and the "excommunication"..never got off the ground !!!) Daily the Jalandhar rival tries to run down the Rozana spokesman...and daily RS publishes pictures of Jathedars READING the RS (when as Good Sikhs they shouldnt even be seen within a mile of it..he he he ??) SO there are "good sikhs..and "Good Sikhs....?? and Bad Sikhs ??

    Then it is the Turn of the KIRTANIYAS...becasue the sgpc/badal/priest NEXUS felt the HEAT of the MESSAGE reaching the MASSES. In this Singh sahib Professor darshan Singh Jis VAST knolwedge of Gurbani, Sikh history and the evil designs of the Panth's Enmeies made him a DANGEROUS ENEMY...had to be removed fast...either by Hook or Crook...and Lamba provided the HOOK Category of a DISTORTED DVD..on which the priests acted in haste. Otherwise Justice demans that ALL the EVIDENCE be considered...The Rochestor Gurdwara Commitee and the SANGAT and the recorder fot eh ORIGINAL DVD pleaded to be called..BUT were IGNORED..becasue "evidence adn TRUTH' were Not important..what was important was to NEUTRALISE Drashan Singh as fast as possible..

    Next is the DELHI Gurdwara managemnt Committee sarna Tarsem Singh and others who are behind Darshan Singh....simnply becasue due to them..the Voice of darshan Singh is still active...
     
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  10. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    Thanks Gyani ji

    I guess we are looking at slow learners. Let us not forget that former Jathedar Ranjir Singh went to prison for homicide.
     
  11. Tejwant Singh

    Tejwant Singh United States
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    Re: Action Agsint Those Honoring Ragi Likely

    Gyani ji,

    Guru Fateh.

    Well said. The details of all these events are very important for us to grasp before we start mudslinging on the latest affairs and finding faults in people on both sides. It is not the people but the system created by the politicos where Gurmat does not even take the back seat but has been put in the trunk of the car.

    There is no tug of war of egos here that people need to come down from their ego ladders. It is the war between Pro DG ( the book that some claim Guru Gobind Singh ji wrote without having any proof) and Pro SGGS, our only Guru and we know who wrote what in this one.

    So, to blame both sides and urging for some political compromise and claiming that it is dividing the Panth is not only parochial but also naive in my opinion. Panth can not be divided. Its foundation is based on Gurmat ideals but as its buildings that were built with papier mache ( manmat) rather than Gurmat from the SGGS, they have just disintegrated which was expected.

    The fact of the matter is that Prof. Sahib went to the Akal Takhat and wanted an open meeting which the honchos refused. Then the Manmat based on political interests took over the reigns, hence this result which is nothing but self mockery of Sikhi by the people in power.

    What Prof. Sahib has done is to show us the facade based on Manmat of these crumbled buildings. Now it is the time for Sikhs from India and diaspora to join hands and build the Gurmat buildings of the Panth brick by brick with the help of Sikhi cement.

    This is a new beginning for us to rethink the role of Akal Takhats, Jathedars and their modus operandi which should all be based on nothing but Gurmat ideals given to us by our Gurus in SGGS, our only Guru. Only by doing in this way, we can make the Panth stronger so that RSS, Congress, BJP, Badals, Derawalas and all other people who are pro votes and hence would care less about our Panth can not mingle or interfere in the actions of the Akal Takhats which should be totally based on Gurmat.

    This will help us wash this manmat grime off with the help of the detergent given to us by our Gurus in SGGS.

    Tejwant Singh
     
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  12. arshi

    arshi United Kingdom
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    Lee JI
    <?"urn:<img src=" />
    Gurfateh
    <I></I>
    <I>
    </I>

    Let me first of all make it clear that I do not feel you are uncaring – perhaps you interpret things differently - but certainly not uncaring. I also acknowledge that you as a Sikh by conviction see matters more objectively than most Sikhs by birth. I too take an objective view in this matter and feel, in this instance, you have the wrong impression in that I am supporting one of the sides – that is not true.

    <I>
    </I>

    <I></I>
    There is a big difference here. I am advocating reconciliation, talks to resolve the issue and not inflate the situation by backing one side or the other which most agencies appear to be doing. In my opinion an open meeting would have led to certain bloodshed as the sentiments run amok– I sincerely hope I am wrong. With mature individuals on both sides, well versed in Gurbani, I am sure a reconciliatory solution could be found to take us out of the deadlock. I don’t know Ragi Ji personally, although I have friends who are be close to him and admire him a lot. I know even less about Mr. Lamba and his associates and never visit his website except when referred to on this site. I am not a fan of SGPC or the Jathedars either. I am just a humble Seeker of Truth and believe in the Ten Nanaks and SGGS and Khandey Dee Pahul. Thus, my annoyance at the current goings-on is justified compared to those who have an axe to grind.

    <I>
    </I>

    <I></I>
    My dear friend, this is exactly what we are trying to avoid. Yes it is true that when all modes of redressing an injustice fail, it is just and pious to lift the sword (Guru Gobind Singh Ji - Zafarnama). I have been raised on teachings like this and quoted this numerous times on stages. This sort of action is needed when there is righteous indignation. Neither the stage nor the state of righteous indignation has been reached in the current stalemate – I am sure we will get out of this with a little goodwill on both sides. The present situation only reflects the desire for power, dominance and the greed for crispy coloured paper on the part of the main protagonists backed by agencies on both sides with vested interests – principles seem to fly out of the window and SGGS is used simply to suit their end purpose – which is certainly not mokash. This is all driven by egoism and power and if someone says otherwise, he or she is deluding themselves.

    <I>
    </I>

    I totally agree, let us pray, for the sake of Sikhi, the former succeed.

    <I>
    </I>

    <I></I>
    Please Mr Lee let us not even think like that, let alone suggest it in writing – it is a dangerous road to take. I am confident we will survive these turbulent times with the reputation of Sikhi remaining intact. But let us not bury our heads in the sands either– let us raise it and speak up without fear and shout as hard as we can for Sikh Unity, no matter if some label us as naïve. I will accept the label and any humiliation if I feel my sentiments are well placed for the good of Sikhi.

    I have little faith in some (if not all) of our jathedars, ragis or preachers who live off Sikhism and then endanger the very Institution which gave them fame and honour. Let the common person, the Nishkam Sevak (selfless servant of Sikhi who serves without reward) raise their voices. Let us tell the agencies, the media, the websites, the associations and the Sabhas to stop stirring up issues and take a reconciliatory route. I am sure this will prompt the concerned parties to rethink issues and at the very least make an honest attempt to resolve them. People who insist on fueling the controversy are doing a great disservice to Sikhi, and I believe they will not find favour with Satguru.

    Lee Ji, I could go on but hesitate to do so for two reasons:

    1. I have just got back last week after nearly seven weeks of absence from the UK and have a backlog of work to deal with – currently I can only spare two or three hours a week to the internet.

    2. The more I say, the greater the possibility of upsetting others, quite unintentionally, and then having to respond which in turn will be even more time consuming. I sincerely hope I have not offended you in any way, and if inadvertently I have, I seek your forgiveness in advance.

    True we have problems but we can solve them. Chardhi Kala Ji


    Humbly

    Rajinder Singh ‘Arshi’
     
    #11 arshi, Feb 7, 2010
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  13. Bmandur

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    Yes True Prof Darshan Singh jI has given us the thread and needle.

    It is our duties being a Sikh to see what we want to do with thread & needle
    <?"urn:<img src=" />
    Or are we going to be like other Jathedar’s who has given us scissor in our hands to cut a Sikh Panth?

    Definatly this will help us to wash those dirty hands from Manmat manmukh
    Gurfateh

    B Mandur
     
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  14. International Akaali

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    At one point or another i think they are going to have take this hukamnama back. It is just ridiculas, this hukamnama is in the same category which pooran singh excommunicated ex-sgpc president Jagir Kaur along with the jathedar of kesgarh sahib prof manjit singh and damdama sahib giani kewal singh. He also excommunicated the head granthi of akal takht at that time Bhagvan Singh. Next on gurbachan singhs list is going to be paramjit singh sarna, tarsem singh, giani jagtaar singh, along with several other gurbani intellects that speak from Bangla Sahib (delhi). They are getting too much exposure in punjab because of the chardi kala tv channel and they are expressing their displeasures each and every day on tv which the jathedars don't want. So trying to excommunicate them will do the trick, however how many people they gonna excommunicate they probably have gotten the point that it is not only a few people speaking out but the entire sikh community they will just have to face the truth. Gurbachan singh will be ousted soon i can bank on it because his reputation has gotten so down that they will just need to appoint someone else to do the dirty work. Anytime now i think he will be sacked if not today anytime in the short term future.
     
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  15. Bmandur

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    International Akaali Ji.
    Gurfateh Parwaan JI
    Yes indeed, they will remove the Jathedar Gurbachan Singh Ji. Who ever will listen to the Power off Badal Sarkar that person will be in power like rubber stamp.<?"urn:<img src=" />
    I had a chance to meet in 2001 most o fthe Jathedar's in Washington at some one's house. It was breakfast time and what I have seen for breakfast I was shock.

    Since than I have lost my hope on Jathedars but because of Akal Takhat we have to bow our head to Akal Takhat and we are afraid what will be next and who will be next..

    Right now, yeas they need a power may be they will take the Hukamnama back but
    do you think it is so simple so much drama they played and all of sudden they will take it back I do no tthink so..

    I just do not understand one thing, last four months what ever happened and OUR Future CM didn't say a word on it Good OR bad why so!



    I would like to Participate a question to Parkash Singh Badal and his son Sukhvir Singh Badal JI


    That who is our Guru and their GURU?

    Satnaam Waheguru
    Binder Mandur
     
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  16. Tejwant Singh

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    International Akaali ji,

    Guru fateh.

    Allow me to add my two cent worth.

    These Hukumnaamas and ex- communications have become the mockery of Sikhi. These people in power have no respect for the Gurmat ideals.

    With their power they want to malign and embarrass against whom they can throw Hukumnaamas at as if it were some kind of confetti which has me-ism printed all over it. They are the villains and the people who they toss this confetti at are the true victims and hence, powerless.

    And that too from the highest power bestowed to them by our Gurus. By doing this, they are not only abusing Sikhi but insulting our Gurus and flaunting their middle fingers at all what our Gurus stood for.

    Prof. Darshan Singh is brave enough to show them with his actions how these honchos have no regard for Sikhi. Thanks to his actions, common Sikhs are beginning to think and thus questioning the abuse of power by these thugs.

    Sikhi is not meant for this purpose. Those who hold the power, to whom the power has been given by the Panth- Sikhs, to act with this kind Stalinistic behaviour.

    So, for some to claim that both sides must try to reconcile and show some humility shows that these people do not understand the Sikhi ideals and want things to go away, to disappear in thin air and everything will by hunky dory. It is nothing but a utopic dream.

    Reconciliation only happens when both are on equal footing. It does not happen when one side holds all the power.

    The victim, who has been issued the Hukunaama and has been ex-communicated has no power. He is being forced to subject to the will and the arrogance of those who hold the power.

    Personally, in my opinion, humility is the most arrogant word in English dictionary. Humility is in one's actions and deeds not in mere slogans.

    Perhaps and hopefully, we will be able to change the role of Akal Takhat to his original form as it was meant to be when it was established by our 6th Guru. This shake up of the Sikhi thought of being the blind sheep will do Sikhi a lot of good.

    As the saying goes," When we remove the manure, it stinks the most". And by golly it does, but it has to be removed.

    Tejwant Singh
     
  17. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    Tejwant ji

    There are many memorable quotes in your above commentary. However, please remind me of this part whenever I seem to stray.

    So, for some to claim that both sides must try to reconcile and show some humility shows that these people do not understand the Sikhi ideals and want things to go away, to disappear in thin air and everything will by hunky dory. It is nothing but a utopic dream.
    ...
    Personally, in my opinion, humility is the most arrogant word in English dictionary. Humility is in one's actions and deeds not in mere slogans.


    Thank you
     
  18. arshi

    arshi United Kingdom
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    Narayanjot Kaur Ji
    <?"urn:<img src=" />
    I think Tejwant Ji (for whom I have high regard) is alluding to my earlier comments in response to Lee Ji’s posts – perhaps being too polite to aim them at me directly for which I feel truly humbled.

    Perhaps I do not understand my Sikh ideals and perhaps I may also be naïve (after all I am only a seeker, a learner, and can boast no claims – it is up to the Guru and the Lord to judge me). However, I feel no guilt or shame in advocating restraint and caution to avoid inflating matters. Is that such a bad thing? After all we find ourselves in this mess because of those people (current and ex Jathedars, preachers, politicians – in general, I mean no one in particular) who claim to boast high ideals and preach these to the world.

    I agree there is a lot of false humility about and true humility (namrata, garibi) is that which is reflected in deeds. It must come from the heart and not just from the pen or the lips. Bahi Gurdas Ji’s Vaar comes to mind:

    <I>hau tisu gholi ghumaaiaa guramat ridai gareebee aavai</I>
    I love him deeply who cultivates humility through Gurmat, the wisdom of Guru.

    I think in these difficult times let us not lose our heads and accuse each other of naivety. Everyone has a right to an opinion and provided it is not an outrageous or libelous one, we must respect it – although I am aware my approach may not go too well with the administrators – but I am not seeking approval or popular vote and only making my point of view in a small way. As to the current issue only time will tell but I feel confident good reason will prevail (call it naïve or whatever) in the end and the advocates of radical action to divide the Panth may have to wait another day. I pray, for the sake of sikhi, I am right on this one. Let us have some support for moderation and restraint and help in assuaging hurt feelings - taking the Bhai Kanhayia appproach occaisonaly cannot hurt.


    Rajinder Singh ‘Arshi’
     
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  19. spnadmin

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    arshi ji

    Actually I do not think Tejwant ji was aiming his remarks at anyone in particular, but rather clarifying an issue which strikes him as very important. And doing that in conversation with Lee ji and more immediately in conversation with International Akaali ji.

    This is what motivated my own particular response to Tejwant Singh. There are somethings and sometimes in life when restrained response can be more harmful than not. This may be one of those moments in history.

    It all depends on how one defines "restraint." Please do not feel you must explain yourself at all. We are still at the stage where serious discussions of how to work our way our of this mess -- building since 1991 -- are required.
     
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  20. arshi

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    Narayanjot Kaur Ji
    <?"urn:<img src=" />
    Many thanks for the clarification

    <I>
    </I>


    I concur.

    By restraint I do not mean complacency but to take extra care in what we do and say so that we do not exacerbate the situation or make a fool of ourselves in the process. I think Prof Sahib would be the first one to think along these lines, only he needs the right kind of agencies and support to bring about these discussions. There is plenty of talent within our Nation to work out our problems but whatever we do we must do so with thought, sincerity and the right will.

    Rajinder Singh 'Arshi'
     
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    #19 arshi, Feb 8, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 10, 2015
  21. Lee

    Lee
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    Arshi Ji,

    Well I do hope you are correct my friend, yet I am rather pragmatic and look to the history of mankind for the final answer. Look too at the small sampling of Sikhs we have here and already the differant perceptions and ideas being put across.

    We are in for some interesting times I think. Myself I plan to not get inviolved(Heh other than perhaps post here a time or two), I'll sit back and just watch what happens. I have said before that my love for the destination is far greater than my love for the path, and that too much love of teh path will end in problems. Here we go then the row is just about to start, thoese who love the path will fight it out, split, and maybe one day reconcile.

    Me I'll watch and wait and keep my eyes on God.
     
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