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A Wolf's View of Sikhism

Discussion in 'Sikh Sikhi Sikhism' started by Harry Haller, Jun 9, 2011.

  1. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
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    I lost my innocence at 13. Up until that age, I had a normal sikh upbringing, but at 13 something woke up in me that had been slowly increasing in power and direction.

    I discovered what most young boys discover around that age and to cut a long story short, a side of me was born that has dominated my life ever since. This other harry, whom I have always called wolf, is not like me. He is an embodiment of all five thieves, led chiefly by lust. For years the wolf and harry have had a love/hate relationship and fought constant battles, even when harry eventually labelled himself a non sikh, although he respected the fine sikh philosophies without even knowing it. Very rarely do man and wolf sit down together and try and help each other in some sort of peace.

    So now Harry has again found his faith, he labels himself a sikh, he underdstands fully the concept of sikhism, and it is a path that he is now set on completing. But it isnt that easy, if Harry were honest, the thought of being without me fills him with dread, I give Harry a reason for living, excitement, I introduce that feeling in his stomach, I make him feel more alive than he has felt on his own.

    Of course I am a coward, when there have been times I have goaded Harry towards self destruction, and Harry has fallen, and fallen hard, I retreat to a small cave in his mind, where I hide out, till things are bearable again. I do not mind the fun and frolics, but I am not taking responsibility , thats Harrys job.

    Harry worships his inner god, the voice of truth and goodness. Although I respect this god, it does not have enough facets for me, I worship Abbraxus, some believe him to be a satanic god, he is not, he is the god of the manmukh, it is his divine order that ALL human desires be fulfilled, every fetish, every food, drink, be comsumed to feed the unholy fires that burn constantly, but, even I accept that this path has no end, it is timeless, it is now. A cycle develops, of pleasure, memory and then desire, but each time you go round, the pleasure gets less, the memory becomes distorted, and the desire wanes, you have to keep adding more and more ingredients to the pot to not only sustain the pleasures but attempt to increase them.

    And that is the life of wolf, it is quite pointless, it has no beginning and no end, it is purely for the moment. At present I am a lame wolf. For a long time I have had to live out my fantasies in Harrys mind, and even those fantasies where sex is involved, must only feature my wife, and that is what I have now, those are the confines of my existence. I used to be king of all my domain, a roaring wolf who could roam the midnight air,searching for excitement, adventure, a she wolf, a rabbit whose throat I could rip, eventually I would return home, where I lived alone, bloodied and satisfied, Harry was then a sardar, and he felt that was quite enough to satisfy any conscience, so all in all, we all had a great life.

    Now Harry is intent on finding the lost paths to the spirit, and eventually to god. He dreams of killing me, of destroying me, but he knows he cannot. All he can do is make his peace with me. Harry is a good man, but his understanding and spirituality are his undoing, without me, he would have nothing, only his love of spirit. Thankfully, its possible we could live side by side in sikhi. I will make a deal with Harry, one day, yes I will be gone, I accept that, I always thought Harry would go before me, and I could spend my twilight years dying as a wolf should. But this exposure to new theories and teachings means although I do not agree with his path, I have to accept that it is the path to enlightenment, and through this path I will get weaker and weaker until Harry is strong enough through the spirit of Nanak not to kill me, but to let me give way to understanding and the union between man, spirit and god.

    Till then, I agree to stop mocking Harry in his attempt to find god, I will stop introducing anger into him when he feels people are using him, Harry has to learn to give freely, and take up the slack from within, using the power of the spirit and of god to replenish his emptyness, but by the same token, Harry must learn to stop being so holier than thou with respect to my desires and my wishes, he needs to stop tarring everything with the same brush, Harry needs to understand that there is scope in sikhi for wolfish activities, but firstly, in moderation, and secondly never to the point where these activities are placed higher than the spirit, and thirdly within pre set limits

    In years gone by, it was probably easier, the saint reflected Harry, and the soldier reflected me, it was a union made by god, to balance everything out.

    I exist not only to show Harry the wonders of creation, but to protect him. But it will be his union with god, not mine in which Harry will live eternally, I will only ever be there for the moment

    thank you for reading
     
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  3. spnadmin

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    I agree you should not mock harry. There is another side to being a wolf, which is perhaps now raising its hand/paw to be recognized. The communal side. The side that binds with the other wolves. The side that bays together in the night creating a sense of safety for each and every one. The side that kindles loyalty. If the wolf that is lustful is chased away, some good things may be banished with it. So perhaps your soul is calling you to think of how all of the qualities that might be banished or ignored can instead be nourished, so much so that lust can hardly make a peep. Maybe it is time for safety in sangat, the kind of sangat where all the parts of harry's inner life can be tied together, and not one part is made into an angry orphan, and instead of feeding anger, nourishes each one.
     
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  4. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
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    As a wolf, I have been pared down hugely to accommodate Harry's wishes, actually not for Harry, but for Harry's wife. She made it clear from the first meeting that she would love me forever, and be by my side with one provision. I was not to entertain thoughts or desires for any other women, and I have respected that.Now the question is, if Harry is achieve the closeness he desires so much with his creator, is my lust for his wife going to inhibit him......
     
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  5. Scarlet Pimpernel

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    I commend your honest appraisal ,there is only one self ,you maybe transferring your lower self to the symbolic wolf .

    Cultivate your higher self

    God Bless

    The Dark Age of Kali Yuga is the vessel, filled with the wine of sexual desire; the mind is the drunkard.
     
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  6. Kanwaljit Singh

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    Lust could probably be defined by quantum physics and kitchen economics. It is like burning a matchstick. If you keep on placing more matchsticks at the end of previous one, the flame will keep on burning. Otherwise it will stay hidden as a matchstick in the box.
     
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  7. Ishna

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    I suppose you need to analyze what lust is and how it expresses itself negatively. If couples had no desire for each other we would cease to reproduce. Sexual intimacy can also be bonding between husband and wife. Is this sexual relationship different to "lust"?

    Sikhi doesn't advocate celibacy, so you need to figure out what exactly lust is and how it is different from healthy sexual feelings for your wife.
     
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  8. spnadmin

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    ishna ji

    You make several good points. Physical lust wanes with age. Does the loss of lust in older age mean you have conquered it? Lust can also take on nonphysical forms. What kind of lust are we talking about? How honest are people actually when they think about it in their own lives?
     
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  9. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
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    Spnadminji,

    I do not think you should conquer lust, I think you need to make your peace with it. For instance if you really enjoy aloo pronta, to the point where your driving home, and all you can think of is aloo pronta, that surely could be lust. Is it possible some people lust after a complete relationship with the creator. Somehow that does not sound right, to use the word 'lust' in the same sentence as the creator seems wrong. Although I do not think it is wrong for a man to lust after his wife, I get slightly uncomfortable when I do, I feel my intentions are not fully loving and pure.Ishna talks of sexual desire, and that is a very honest statement, but we all know that the best sex is one of love, intimate respect and closeness, anything other than that tends to be for the self, so its possible I have answered my own question,. Lust is for the self, whereas love is shared. I suppose if your driving home thinking of aloo pronta and sharing it with your wife, that is different to a sole aloo pronta eating session, which is more likely lust.

    We are never going to be as pure as the Guru's were, is there a point to taking a mental shoe and stamping out everything in our heads that seems contrary to teachings, surely if everything is god given, then these thoughts are too, there must be reason for them other than trying to entrap us or trying to make us better people by locking them away. If its acceptable to lust after your wife, or lust after food, or knowledge, or even life provided it is carried out in a manner that is not destructive. I do not feel there is anything wrong in someone having a lust for knowledge, if the intention is to use that knowledge for the good, how can there be anything wrong in having a lust for life, provided that life is led within the confines of sikhi.

    I have no doubt that the five thieves are there and waiting for us all, but a bit like an alcoholic that refuses to go to AA, I would rather understand and moderate them, than be scared of them, or in constant battle. Is an alcoholic really cured because he has no access to drink anymore, or is he cured when he can take a sip of beer, and then actually say 'uhm you know what, this isnt doing anything for me, i can take or leave this'

    True understanding comes with discipline and moderation, abstinence shows rigidity and a lack of understanding. Now for every sikh who is reading this and thinking, I abstain, but I still think, well then you may have achieved nothing. Maybe the true sikh is the one whose thoughts and actions are mirrored and is able to enjoy the full benefits of this world but within the framework of sikhi.

    To that end, I propose that every one of the five thieves must have peace made with it, and an understanding reached, to save yourself from a lifetime of fighting and mutual conquering
     
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  10. Ishna

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    This might just be a technicality, but isn't lust the negative expression of desire? Like, you can want aloo pronta, that's OK, but there comes a point where you realise that your desire for aloo pronta goes beyond a desire and becomes lust.

    And I think lusting after a relationship with the creator is wrong, like you said, it doesn't sound right in the same sentence. For a couple of reasons 1) Sikhi balances the spiritual and the mundane, so to go only for the spiritual is not Sikhi, and if you lust after a relationship with the creator you should be a yogi or someone locking away to fulfil that desire. 2) Waheguru controls the relationship, not you, so your lust will always be unrequited. I think so, anyway.


    Very thoughtful paragraph. My selfish youth is having trouble processing it, hehe. I think greed and lust are overlapping here. If you want the aloo pronta all for yourself, you're being greedy, not lustful, I think. You can lust after the experience of sharing aloo pronta with your wife. My understanding is that lust is an excessive and all-consuming craving for something. It is intense and you can't get rid of it from your mind. It tenses your body, you NEED to procure the object of your lust. Is that lust in your definition?

    Example: I currently lust for the Internet. I wake up in the morning and kick myself for getting more excited about getting up and checking various forums than I do about getting up and reading Gurbani. I get edgy and focused that I must go on the Internet, first thing I do. I get annoyed when something prevents me from checking. That is negative. :mundaviolin: If you feel that way about your wife, then you might have a problem with lust!

    Without getting too personal for you, Harry ji, and trying not to cheapen this thread, I ask this as a general question of the sangat: if you have "dirty thoughts", does that constitute lust? Do occasional "dirty thoughts" about your wedded partner constitute lust? I'm thinking not, or else how would romantic intimacy ever get off the ground? If you think of them excessively, and get angry when your partner is not obliging, then you have problem with lust, I think.

    I believe the 5 evils were very important to us as primitives many thousands of years ago. You would LUST after someone (*cue David Attenborough voice* "Here we see the male of the human species in pursuit of a female" hehe) for the purpose of reproduction. You would be GREEDY to keep all the food for yourself or your group to ensure your own survivial. You would become EGOTISTICAL to promote yourself and intimidate others for your survival and the survival of your genetic line. You become ATTACHED to things because without your cave or tree or whatever you are left to the elements and have to find somewhere else to go, or without your Big Stick you are no longer ruler of your group. You become ANGRY to protect what you have or else you are destroyed by maurauding tribes.

    And we carry these primitive motivators around with us in the present day, and they can cloud our judgement towards making decisions within the Sikh framework you mentioned.


    I'm not sure that what you're describing fits with the definition of lust. It may be used in common language to express someone's zest or passion for something, but is that necessarily lust?

    I agree, nicely said.
     
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  11. BhagatSingh

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    Making peace between and with the 5 Veils is only the first step. Greed (Lobh), Lust (Kaam), Attachment (Moh), Pride (Ahankar), Anger (krodh), which are the manifestations of Ego (emphasizing the sense of self as distinct from everything else).

    It seems to me that the ultimate goal is to eventually burn them with the Fire of Naam (or even with the fire of Yoga, Vipassana, etc etc whichever way you prefer).

    I have not seen a sentence in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji which says these should be kept for any purpose. Quite the opposite, they must be dissolved, disintegrated. I agree with it, when it says that the Hot fire of ego must be extinguished. And that's because in our society it serves no purpose. It harms us instead. But let me first mention how the ego has been useful to us so far.

    We humans homo homo sapien cro magnon are here because of it. Our ancestors, because of their ego killed off the other 6 human species and have driven other 100s of species to extinction. We dominate the planet today.

    Unfortunately there is now no more room to fill, and we encounter each other, strangers, enemies, friends, basically random people, every day of our life. In there 100s! Our old ways of living isolated in tribes of 50 are OVER.

    strangers, enemies, friends - the Ego does this labelling. The ego sees and is overly attached with this concept that there is a friend, an enemy and stranger. Those without ego realize that there is no such thing, what they see is much deeper than individuals with ego. This is not to say that they cannot distinguish between them. The ego is still there but has been demoted. The consciousness of the individual, the God inside, is promoted and emphasized. (it won't be long until the individual eventually loses the ego and dies however, back to the point)

    If you are stuck in the negative, you are stuck in the positive. That's OK though. Nothing wrong with that BUT it's being emphasized beyond a certain point. What needs to be emphasized is the experience there is no negative or positive, there is just one's perception. What needs to be emphasized is full awareness of what is, pure consciousness needs to arise, without thought.(let me come back to why no thoughts can be there)

    Look at the clouds, stare at them and their infinite shapes, look at the trees the way they dance with the wind, softly, majestic... an experience that can only be experienced. What I have described cannot encapsulate that perception! And what a perception! Rich! complex! infinite... it's beauty is not available to thoughts... Thoughts tell you "it sucks", "bull-waste", "nothing there dude", "booooring". But put consciousness to everyday objects and gain full access to perception. It offers, fulfillment without material, happiness without external input, and a rich experience. Inner peace is obtained. Emphasize such a perception more. Demphasize ego and thoughts. Thoughts are useful for doing math and science and for planning. Great, balance those with moments with moments without thought. The compulsion to think is a compulsion indeed. But it can stop. This obsession with thought is not necessary. In fact, a hindrance to the infinite perception.

    The ego feeds off of struggle. The more you struggle the more it bubbles and boils and expands. The thicker the veils become! Struggle against another person, during debates, during conversations, during meetings. Struggle against oneself, one's self-concept, even one's ego, even on'e own Veils, struggle against some aspect of ego. Struggle between harry and the wolf. Struggle with the story of harry and the big bad wolf (because it is really only a story). Struggle is not necessary, it's a hindrance to inner peace. Though struggle could get one to a place where one realizes it's not necessary.

    One is neither harry nor the wolf. One is .. well ONE. One is the witness to the story. One is the God which makes the perception of such a story and all our perceptions possible.

    When there is perception... perception again being full awareness of something.. in that moment, there is no ego. Rejoice this moment with your perception or shall I say THE perception, you are not an individual in this perception but rather part of the perception... this is the experience of Oneness and it is readily available to you now. Live in it. Enjoy it and be at peace. Let the ego be. Once the struggle stops, the ego will die with time. It is only there because of the struggle.

    The fire of Naam (and other paths) is a COLD fire. It burns but it cools you down as it burns. What does it burn? The five veils. It burns one's desires and wants, which 95% of the time are attachments to something in the future. It burns them right off one's perception. So that one's perception is a perception with full awareness, pure consciousness, GOD consciousness, immersed in God, etc. Inner peace is obtained through this fire. Letting the consciousness becoming immersed in the perception of everything there is (everything there is = God). Let the consciousness come out of thoughts in which Ego is present, and touch the face of spirit/life/God/perception itself.

    I am using Perception, God, Pure Consciousness, Inner peace etc as if they are the same word. Though they look different, in reality, they are the same. That is because the actual "thing" can only be witnessed. You have to be there to experience it.

    "The Tao that can be named (described/grasped/understood) is not the real Tao."

    Hope that above hints help. If you find yourself struggling with them, just move on.

    Peace.

    ...because it's worth it.
     
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  12. Ishna

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    Wow. I'm going to read that a hundred times. Thank you Bhagat ji. kaurhug
     
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  13. Harry Haller

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    Ishnaji

    lust is defined as a passionate or overmastering desire or craving, to that end everything you have said in your post is quite correct, that also answers the question, is it ok to lust after your wife, no, its ok to desire her,

    Bhagatsinghji,

    that was a most beautiful post, and again, everything you have mentioned is also quite correct and unworthy of any argument. However, I feel that not everyone is capable of reaching that point, or may not even want to. While I have a family, a business, parents, a stepson, pets, problems tax etc, it is not so easy to see everything in the poetic way you have described,. yes, ultimately, I would be deluding myself if I though that the five thieves were not meant to be burnt away like a cancer, but living in the real world, as well as the spirit world means some compromise must take place.

    The compromise dies when we entrust ourselves fully to god, I am not in a position to do that at this stage in my life yet, although the compromises wane as time goes on., 20 years ago, I lived a life of women, intoxicants, gambling and corruption. That was the wolf then, now he is reduced to putting up his paw and politely asking if its ok that his only vice now is the lust for his wife. Because of the way I have lived my life, casino's bore me, other women bore me, drink to excess bores me, and that is the state of conquering I wish to have, to walk into a casino and not walk out of fear or guilt, but boredom.

    Some people learn these lessons easier than others, my wolf has bankrupted me, lost me my big house and shiny BMW, my rich friends, my corrupt business colleagues, my blonde blue eyed american fiance, he has had me thrown in the cells many many times, and a nice spell the local prison, he has given me 3 heart attacks, and the honour of being one of the youngest men to undergo quad bypass heart surgery in my city!

    It sounds like a lot of pain, it was not actually, each moment was a defining moment, ahhhh thats why you shouldnt gamble, ahhhhh thats why you shouldnt get in your car and drive down the M11 at 125mph when you have just been banned by a court, and, if you ever feel that all the people round you are false, thats because they probably are, if you drive a car for the effect it has on other people, then you have self confidence problems, if you pursue the ideal of beauty without regard to the insides, you are more lemming than man.

    Ah so many memories, but one day Bhagatsinghji, I will not only be able to understand that which you have written, I will live it
     
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  14. BhagatSingh

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  15. kds1980

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    Quite interesting I heard the other Human species got extinct but cro magnon was directly responsible ,yet to find answer.Even if we killed them it is not because of ego it is because No species can share precious resources of Earth with others O/W we will be short of resources.All carnivore species hate each other and kill each other just to eliminate competetion so I guess earlier Humans did the same O/W who knows neanderthal would had make us extinct
     
  16. BhagatSingh

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    Yes you are right it's much more complex than what I say now, have said or could ever know.

    I am looking at ego retrospectively. Clearly we do have an ego, so it must have been useful for our ancestors, in their environment. Now ego would be involved in every aspect of their behaviour: mating and all the rituals involved, hunting, gathering, social bonds, protecting food and loved ones, fighting off other tribes, fighting for dominance/control within the tribe, etc. And it's precisely because of these behaviours and intelligence that our lineage continued.
    In a nutshell, resources are always limited so securing them for yourself and loved ones, and not "the other", would be key to our evolution. Is that the key to our evolution now? Looks to me like this behaviour is going to wipe us out.
     
  17. Ishna

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    The last documentary I saw on the evolution of humans postulated that our species ability to socially interact with each other is what helped us survive.

    A tribe of our competitors would meet the neighbouring tribe and try to defeat them. Our dudes would meet the neighbouring tribe and trade with them. The evidence for this was art of animals from a particular area being found in other areas where those animals didn't live.

    I'm sure there's much more too it, but the essential aspect was the development of communication and social interaction is what helped us succeed.
     
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  18. Archived_member14

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    Bhagat ji,


    I put this forward for your consideration.


    First, why the need to identify with those who lived a long time ago? Why say that you or I are the product of a chain of events in the past involving deeds and actions performed by other people?

    “Each person is owner of his deeds, heir to his deeds, his deeds are the womb from which he is born, his deeds are his kin for whom he is responsible, his deeds are his refuge; he is heir to his deeds, be they good or bad.†– The Buddha

    Evolution may be about survival of the fittest and human beings as a race, is the result of this particular mechanism. However this only says that at one point there were no beings here on earth born as a result of good deeds in the past, but later on, when the environment was such that human beings came into existence and could thrive, there were. Before that, good karma of the kind resulted in birth on other planets in other star systems. And if human beings could not survive here, karma of the kind would bear fruit as rebirth somewhere else and you won't be called Bhagat Singh, we’d not be communicating as we are doing now, and there won't be a movie called Avatar for anyone of us to watch. ;-)

    All beings, then or now, are heir to their own actions and not that of anyone else. Those who killed for survival will have to reap the fruit of that particular deed. Your own birth in this life was a result of some good deed in past lives, and next life it could be that you are born a cockroach and end up squashed by your own kith and kin, who knows?!

    Why think that you inherit anything other than that which is the result of your own actions? If you think along the lines that you and I would not be here had prehistoric man not killed and survived, then those deeds will be made to appear justified. But not only this, you'd have created a stage whereby justification is made for some evil action that you yourself perform in the name of survival. Although it is true that “survival†depends on the greater capacity to greed and aversion, why make this the deciding factor as to what is right and what is wrong action. Is this not in fact making survival a goal when "getting out of the cycle of existence" is what the aim should be?

    Here is something else that the Buddha said:

    “Even if bandits were to carve you up savagely, limb by limb, with a two-handed saw, he among you who let his heart get angered at that would not be doing my bidding."

    There is no expectation of course, that anyone of us has this much loving kindness or wisdom. But should we not acknowledge the wrong deed and own up to it at least in principle? If those in the past did not have the capacity to discriminate between good and evil, this does not mean that one of us come out and make their evil deed appear as good? Do we do this because somehow we feel that we are indebted to them? If so, this would be wrong perception, wrong thinking and wrong understanding, which can lead to many problems. And unless we are learning and teaching evolutionary science, it is quite unnecessary to think about evolution at all isn't it?
     
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  19. kds1980

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    Well I can't say it is key for evolution but it is certainly key for hi fi lifestyle which western countries are addicted to.Is it any wonder that middle east is the main attraction in the entire world

    As far wiping us out i don't think this behaviour is going to wipe us.A very large percentage of world is still living on few resources so as the resources will decline it will hurt more to rich than the poor as they will face more hardships which they are not used to.
     
  20. BhagatSingh

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    e.g. War, Nuclear warfare, WW3, over resources from various parts of the world.
    Our technology, which is the result of and is driven by that mentality, amplifying our tribal ways, has the power to wipe us out.

    It remains a likely event unless we change... no... unless I change.
     
  21. kds1980

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    SPNer

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    Well I think 1950 to 1991 were the most dangerous days for west and soviet as both USA and Soviet were deadly enemies of each other and nuclear war could had been triggered.but everything ended peacefully .I am sure at that time so many people could had predicted that SAoviet and USA may end up destroying Each other

    If anybody has to concern about Nuclear war then it is me and people living in North India as we are Living with world's most stupid nuclear country Pakistan ,O/W I don't think there is any danger of any Nuclear war in anywhere in world in near future
     
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