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A Little EGO May Be A Good Thing By IJ Singh

Discussion in 'Sikh Sikhi Sikhism' started by IJSingh, May 6, 2015.

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  1. IJSingh

    IJSingh United States
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    Sikhi dwells heavily on the five fundamental evils that haunt and command us. They define our life; its purpose and demeanor – the kind of person we become. And further we learn that haumae, translated loosely but universally as ego in Sikh parlance, is the supreme evil that drives and empowers the other four –lust, envy, greed and anger.

    Screen Shot 2015-05-06 at 10.14.43 AM.png

    Ego then is the root of all evil. Deal effectively with ego, extirpate it from life, and all will become copacetic. That’s the way Sikhi often seems to present this matter. Today let’s parse the idea of haumae or ego, as we see it. Let’s dub the exercise meditations or reflections on ego. In musical terms, it’s like a riff or an ostinato; both are thematic and serve by changing chords or harmonies in short and repeating spells of background music to solo improvisation.

    This remakes ego almost into a magical spell. It is that but what exactly do we mean by the term “ego.” I am not a behavioral scientist, but today I am going to step into this minefield.

    Id, Ego & Super Ego

    Richard Dawkins, in a book aptly titled The Selfish Gene posits a gene that is largely, if not only, concerned with its own replication and survival and defines much of behavioral strategies that have emerged, and continue to arise, from the “disorderly experience of life and the mix of ever-renewing chromosomes” (from Tim Radford’s review of The Selfish Gene).

    Behavioral experts view personality as a mix of three distinct but intermeshed parts: Id, Ego and the Superego. These three, according to Freudian theory, in complex interaction, form and regulate the complexity of human behavior. A Canadian academic psychologist, Dr. Surinder Singh Sodhi, tells me that this Freudian construction has been superseded by some very elaborate neuronal models that are the underpinnings of our sense of self, but that level of molecular-cellular biology is not the primary goal here today.

    Id is the basic personality that seeks instant gratification for one’s needs and wants. If they are not quickly met, I suppose, a behavioral episode ensues. It is like a hungry baby that howls incessantly until fed. Think of the many friends and foes who operate at this level, having never learned to separate their wants from their needs, or that some gratification becomes sweeter with the waiting.

    Ego is the next level that regulates our social behavior. One learns to tame the pangs of instant gratification. Ego deals with reality in the pursuit of our wants. Finally there is the Super Ego that adds the role of judgment and social morality – the parsing of right from wrong, even when the law turns a blind eye to the action.

    It seems that these three parts of the self, particularly the ego and the superego are the most, intimately and inseparably, intertwined. Scholars of psychology may cavil on the finer points of what is a sense of self, but I offer you here fair working definitions of Id, Ego and Super Ego that give our lives a structural framework.

    Ego in Guru Granth Sahib

    The Guru Granth offers us extensive exploration of the concept of Haumae and how it plays in human life. The longest and defining composition (p.466) is an integral part of Aasa-ki-Vaar (p. 462-475). The part on haumae is largely the composition of Guru Nanak, a smaller part comes from Guru Angad. A core belief in Sikhi is the idea of a sense of self, so haumae claims attention a myriad time.

    When translating Gurbani, with nary an exception, Haumae is translated as Ego. A life fed and defined by haumae is transcribed in English as an ego-driven existence, and roundly condemned.

    True that Haumae empowers the other four cardinal sins – avarice, greed, lust and anger. And then our emphasis immediately shifts to the many lines in Gurbani that exhort us to extirpate root and branch all signs of ego in our lives -- only then would we be able to realize the Creator within us all.

    But perhaps a more nuanced interpretation is more appropriate here. Let me offer first the defining hymn from the Guru Granth (p. 466); text and translation are reproduced from Wikipedia:

    Ha-o vich aa-i-aa ha-o vich ga-i-aa (In ego they come, and in ego they go.)
    Ha-o vich jammi-aa ha-o vich mu-aa (In ego they are born, and in ego they die.)
    Ha-o vich ditaa ha-o vich la-i-aa (In ego they give, and in ego they take.)
    Ha-o vich khati-aa ha-o vich ga-i-aa (In ego they earn, and in ego they lose.)
    Ha-o vich sachiaar koorhi-aar (In ego they become truthful or false.)
    Ha-o vich paap punn veechaar (In ego they reflect on virtue and sin.)
    Ha-o vich narak surag avatar (In ego they go to heaven or hell.)
    Ha-o vich hasai ha-o vich rovai (In ego they laugh, and in ego they weep.)
    Ha-o vich bharee-ai ha-o vich Dhovai (In ego they become dirty, and in ego they are washed clean.)
    Ha-o vich jaatee jinsee khovai (In ego they lose social status and class.)
    Ha-o vich moorakh ha-o vich si-aanaa In ego they are ignorant, and in ego they are wise.)
    Mokh mukat kee saar na jaanaa (They do not know the value of salvation and liberation.)
    Ha-o vich maa-i-aa ha-o vich chhaa-i-aa (In ego they love Maya, and in ego they are kept in darkness.)
    ha-umai kar kar jant upaa-i-aa (Living in ego, mortal beings are created.)
    ha-umai boojhai taa dar soojhai (When one understands ego, then the Lord’s gate is known).

    Without spiritual wisdom, they babble and argue (Naanak hukmee likee-ai laykh).

    O Nanak, by the Lord’s Command, destiny is recorded (jayhaa vaykheh tayhaa vaykh). ||1||

    Given such an all-pervasive presence in a Sikh life, I wondered why and how could “ego” be the pure evil that needs to be uprooted absolutely – exhortations that we hear every day in gurduaras.

    I suggest that our confusion is shortsighted. We overlook that these lines of Guru Nanak are immediately followed by a brief hymn by Guru Angad on the same page (p.466). I offer a few lines:

    Ha-umai kithhu oopjai kit sanjam ih jaa-ay (Where does ego come from? How can it be removed?)
    Ha-umai ayho hukam hai pa-i-ai kirat firaahi (This ego exists by the Lord’s Order….)
    Ha-umai deeragh rog hai daaroo bhee is maahi (Ego is a chronic malady, but its panacea lies within the disease.)

    Some Ideas about Ego

    Now when I juxtapose the clarity and definitional constraints on Id, Ego and Super Ego with the defining usage of the word Haumae for the variety of applications in the hymns cited above I have to wonder about the appropriateness of the word Ego as translation of Haumae.

    Ego, as psychoanalysts tell us, deals with reality in life and its goals. Clearly then Haumae is distorted reality. It seems then inappropriate to use the two as synonyms of each other. Forget not that ego, in psychoanalytic terms, is the core of our sense of self.

    Keep in mind that our focus is on a sense of self. In our opening definitions we noted that Id speaks of our needs and wants; ego regulates and tames our social behavior, while super ago adds the dimension of legality and morality to the mix.

    A reader (Ali Zain) cut to the chase by a snappy summary; Id is pleasure, he said, while ego is reality and superego is morality. And, as noted earlier in this essay, remember that the panacea for ego lies in the disease (Guru Granth p 466).

    No question that ego needs to be tamed but, clearly, our sense of self emerges from it. Given its pervasive presence within our life, this God-given trait can’t then be pure unbridled evil, except when ego itself becomes purely unbridled. We know that in life a self-assertive stance is desirable but an aggressive attitude is not.

    It is also true that ego lies at the root of the four additional major distractions to a good life – lust, greed, avarice and anger. Without the ego, they likely would not exist. These five can morph into the devil’s work but harnessed to greater goals they make life possible, giving it meaning and purpose. What we need then is an ego harnessed and disciplined to the greater sense of self. Since ego begets lust, greed, avarice and anger, the same conclusion applies to them.

    What we really colloquially mean by ego then is an uncontrollable and exaggerated love for the self and a misplaced judgment of our puny place in the universe. Such a searingly negative change in the sense of self is perhaps better labeled

    Narcissism that behavioral scientists define as “extreme selfishness. It comes with a grandiose view of one's own talents and a craving for admiration, as defining a personality type.”

    Greek mythology speaks of Narcissus, a hunter known for his beauty. In his pride he disdained all that were around him. The Gods noted his behavioral aberration and lured him to a pool, where he fell in love with his own reflection in the water.

    Unable to leave the beauty of his image, Narcissus drowned and gave us the term narcissism for the image that we portray to others around us.

    I look similarly at haumae (pride, hubris or narcissism) and the four additional monsters it spawns of lust, anger, greed and avarice. All five, disciplined in service, are essential to making a life. Each demands uprooting when it runs amok.

    It is really this degree of self-centeredness or pride that Gurbani is talking about that we term ego. Perhaps we have mishandled the literal translation of haumae as ego.

    A sense of self is essential to life. In all dialogue there is “You and I” even in a conversation with the Creator. In a merger termed “us” there is you and I. In short, the word haumae has two powerful ideas inherent in it. One is the ego that gives us a sense of self; it needs to be nurtured and disciplined. The other is the ego run amok as in narcissism and this deserves to be expelled lest it destroy us. The distinction between the two is critical. (I owe some of the insight on narcissism to conversations with Dr. Harbans Lal from Texas.)

    Has mine today become a paean to ego? What gave life to this essay today? Well! I have a birthday looming and my thoughts naturally veered towards haumae.

    Just remember that too much of a good thing doesn’t make it better; it may become worse. And that’s the way with ego and its cohorts.
     
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  3. Tejwant Singh

    Tejwant Singh United States
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    Inder ji,

    Guru Fateh.

    Very well said, as usual. In other words this necessary evil called Haumei- mistranslated as Ego in the English translation is also the part and parcel of our DNA. We should cultivate the trait of Gurmat Fulcrum within in order to lasso it to our advantage.One may also call Haumei as Me-ism.

    Thanks for forcing us to think in the Gurmat fashion so we are able to steer our boats towards the Gumat lane. A manmukh can never be a good tillerman.

    Regards

    Tejwant Singh
     
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    #2 Tejwant Singh, May 6, 2015
    Last edited: May 6, 2015
  4. Original

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    Gentlemen

    Taken together, that is, Haumae and me-ism gives us the aliveness of a human character, which is, as Tejwant correctly observes, a genetic component more commonly referred to as a "selfish" gene [darwinian evolution]. However, following his mystical experience at Sultanpur Lodhi, Nanak too has become "romantic" [in love with the Almighty] and how he expresses it poetically is pretty much, egoistical - me ism sense.

    ਮਾਰੂ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ॥ ਕੋਈ ਆਖੈ ਭੂਤਨਾ ਕੋ ਕਹੈ ਬੇਤਾਲਾ ॥ ਕੋਈ ਆਖੈ ਆਦਮੀ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਵੇਚਾਰਾ ॥੧॥ ਭਇਆ ਦਿਵਾਨਾ ਸਾਹ ਕਾ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਬਉਰਾਨਾ ॥ ਹਉ ਹਰਿ ਬਿਨੁ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਜਾਨਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ ਤਉ ਦੇਵਾਨਾ ਜਾਣੀਐ ਜਾ ਭੈ ਦੇਵਾਨਾ ਹੋਇ ॥ ਏਕੀ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਬਾਹਰਾ ਦੂਜਾ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਜਾਣੈ ਕੋਇ ॥੨॥ ਤਉ ਦੇਵਾਨਾ ਜਾਣੀਐ ਜਾ ਏਕਾ ਕਾਰ ਕਮਾਇ ॥ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਪਛਾਣੈ ਖਸਮ ਕਾ ਦੂਜੀ ਅਵਰ ਸਿਆਣਪ ਕਾਇ ॥੩॥ ਤਉ ਦੇਵਾਨਾ ਜਾਣੀਐ ਜਾ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਧਰੇ ਪਿਆਰੁ ॥ ਮੰਦਾ ਜਾਣੈ ਆਪ ਕਉ ਅਵਰੁ ਭਲਾ ਸੰਸਾਰੁ ॥੪॥੭॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 991}

    Nanak's emphasis in the above shabd is on the "me" and the "you" [world] factors to illustrate his own position. And, I think one will be perfectly justified in allowing Nanak to be human albeit occasionally. Moreover, one could also infer from his pull towards Sufism in relation to "romanticism" [God and him]. That is to say, how his writings reflect the use of character [dewaana], places, themes and incidents as images, metaphors and allegories, coupled with the fact that he used an Art form [singing, ragas] as opposed to philosophical expression because of the "I" [feeling] rather than the knowing factor.

    So yes, in summary, bit of everything makes Jack wise n beautiful.

    Thank you and good day !
     
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  5. chazSingh

    chazSingh Ireland
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    As far as i understand the Ego is crucial in creating the illusion of the 'many' when there is in fact really only one...
    Waheguru created the Ego so that an individual experience could be had....but the reality is there is only Waheguru...

    The lower the Ego, the greater the merging / feeling of being the 'one'...the lower the Ego, the less the illusion of separateness...the more we 'literally' see God...everywhere...in everything...Sat Yug

    the harder the Ego, the more boundaries and lines we see....God is not seen anymore...only the characters in his play...and the 5 thieves over rule human behavior. thus the age if kaljug...

    in the sickness of the Ego lies the cure...the game of love as described by Guru Ji.

    Simran and Seva being the key to dissolve the hardness of the ego, the fog in the mind..so that the one light can be seen...
    just like in the above shabad...when one understands the Ego, the Door to waheguru opens (within)
     
  6. chazSingh

    chazSingh Ireland
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    In all dialogue there is “You and I” even in a conversation with the Creator. In a merger termed “us” there is you and I.

    There are shabads where Guru Ji says "everywhere i look, i see only you"...which would mean, when he looks at himself...he see's only Him (waheguru)....therefore the "I" and "You" could possibly only be a restriction of language..language which is a construct of the dualistic mind...language has it's restrictions...after that only first hand experience can shatter those restrictions. The I and You being merely a description to help the rest of us visualize what is going on...because the reality is, this state cannot be explained.


    Also, Gurbani Clearly states that the state of a brahmgiani cannot be known or described in any way...therefore it is a pointless exercise using our minds to understand such a state that the Guru Ji's were in....it's absolutely pointless...to the point where i think Guru Ji says we would be stupid to even attempt :

    for the rest of us, of course Ego has it's place...it is through Ego, that all of us could be tricked into thinking we are hardened individuals (the many) to the point we question the existance of Waheguru and try to destroy one another in some way shape or form...now that we have seperated ourselves to this extent...the journey home begins...do we have the strength, the will power to...the LOVE to slice the layers off our Ego to return to our true state of being again? how remarkable is his creation? :)
     
  7. Sherdil

    Sherdil
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    It's viewing dukh (pain) and sukh (pleasure) as one. Often, these are subjective interpretations of the circumstances. Gurbani tells us that whatever happens is sukh because it is per the Hukam.

    At first glance a very bad situation appears to be dukh, but it is in these situations that people usually turn to the Divine for help. A blessing in disguise.

    Haumai creates dukh, which can lead a person back to the One.

    GGS, page 469:

    ਸਲੋਕੁ ਮਃ ੧ ॥
    सलोकु मः १ ॥
    Salok mėhlā 1.
    Shalok, First Mehl:

    ਦੁਖੁ ਦਾਰੂ ਸੁਖੁ ਰੋਗੁ ਭਇਆ ਜਾ ਸੁਖੁ ਤਾਮਿ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥
    दुखु दारू सुखु रोगु भइआ जा सुखु तामि न होई ॥
    Ḏukẖ ḏārū sukẖ rog bẖa▫i▫ā jā sukẖ ṯām na ho▫ī.
    Suffering is the medicine, and pleasure the disease, because where there is pleasure, there is no desire for God.

    ਤੂੰ ਕਰਤਾ ਕਰਣਾ ਮੈ ਨਾਹੀ ਜਾ ਹਉ ਕਰੀ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥੧॥
    तूं करता करणा मै नाही जा हउ करी न होई ॥१॥
    Ŧūʼn karṯā karṇā mai nāhī jā ha▫o karī na ho▫ī. ||1||
    You are the Creator Lord; I can do nothing. Even if I try, nothing happens. ||1||

    ਬਲਿਹਾਰੀ ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਵਸਿਆ ॥
    बलिहारी कुदरति वसिआ ॥
    Balihārī kuḏraṯ vasi▫ā.
    I am a sacrifice to Your almighty creative power which is pervading everywhere.

    ਤੇਰਾ ਅੰਤੁ ਨ ਜਾਈ ਲਖਿਆ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
    तेरा अंतु न जाई लखिआ ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
    Ŧerā anṯ na jā▫ī lakẖi▫ā. ||1|| rahā▫o.
    Your limits cannot be known. ||1||Pause||

    ਜਾਤਿ ਮਹਿ ਜੋਤਿ ਜੋਤਿ ਮਹਿ ਜਾਤਾ ਅਕਲ ਕਲਾ ਭਰਪੂਰਿ ਰਹਿਆ ॥
    जाति महि जोति जोति महि जाता अकल कला भरपूरि रहिआ ॥
    Jāṯ mėh joṯ joṯ mėh jāṯā akal kalā bẖarpūr rahi▫ā.
    Your Light is in Your creatures, and Your creatures are in Your Light; Your almighty power is pervading everywhere.

    ਤੂੰ ਸਚਾ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਸਿਫਤਿ ਸੁਆਲ੍ਹ੍ਹਿਉ ਜਿਨਿ ਕੀਤੀ ਸੋ ਪਾਰਿ ਪਇਆ ॥
    तूं सचा साहिबु सिफति सुआल्हिउ जिनि कीती सो पारि पइआ ॥
    Ŧūʼn sacẖā sāhib sifaṯ su▫āliha▫o jin kīṯī so pār pa▫i▫ā.
    You are the True Lord and Master; Your Praise is so beautiful. One who sings it, is carried across.

    ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਕਰਤੇ ਕੀਆ ਬਾਤਾ ਜੋ ਕਿਛੁ ਕਰਣਾ ਸੁ ਕਰਿ ਰਹਿਆ ॥੨॥
    कहु नानक करते कीआ बाता जो किछु करणा सु करि रहिआ ॥२॥
    Kaho Nānak karṯe kī▫ā bāṯā jo kicẖẖ karṇā so kar rahi▫ā. ||2||
    Nanak speaks the stories of the Creator Lord; whatever He is to do, He does. ||2||
     
  8. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
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    Sikhism is supposed to be an enlightened religion, far away fro, the fear and carrot driven methodology that seems popular. To foist bad situations in order to drive people back to God does not seem particularly enlightened to me.

    It is however, quite Abrahamic, a bit like a lot of the translations that seem to keep getting quoted....
     
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  9. japjisahib04

    japjisahib04 Kuwait
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    Let us know what actually is 'dukh' in 'Dukh daaru'. Gurbani tells us, 'ਦੂਖੁ ਘਨੋ ਜਬ ਹੋਤੇ ਦੂਰਿ ॥ I suffered in pain/miseries, when I thought He was far away/separated from me due to my evil thought process.SGGS.384.12. Like ‘kirat karam kai vichdai kar kirpa mailo raam.(Otherwise In Sikhi, there is no separation between ourselves and Ik Ong Kaar. It is an Abrahamic thought process which got inserted in Sikhi by the earlier translators of Gurbani who were all Christians; hence the biblical twist was unconscious. Sadly, the Sikhs who became their students continued with the same mentality.

    Ik Ong Kaar resides in all of us and is manifested by us through our deeds. This modus operandi is learnt by us through Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only Guru. When we have this type of thinking it makes dukh as daaru. So in this pankti dukh in positive sense is in separation of God. whereas second 'sukh rog bhaiya' entangled in worldly luxuries comes in negative sense which is also in separation of God. Then 'ja sukh tam na hoey' - I am looking that 'sukh' which is eternal and by which (taam - ahnkaar)vikars does not enters into my mind at all. And that eternal bliss is achieved by divine wisdom with burning desire of surrendering to His Laws.
     
  10. Original

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    Gentlemen

    The link between literature and religion is fundamental in the understanding and realisation of human experience. Gurbani is the light of life, a guide en route the bumpy journey of human endeavours. It's charisma lies in giving a balanced direction to life's many situations whilst anchoring a steadfast belief in the one transcendent Ikonkar.

    The net result of the above verses by Baba Nanak [469] is to give credence to the "ineffability" and the "ingenuity" of Akal Purakh's incomprehensible workings. Why or what relevance that has with I J Singh's essay [Ego] beats me ?

    Much obliged
     
  11. Sherdil

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    I don't find it Abrahamic. A bearded man in the sky is not handing down punishments to us mortals so that we may repent.

    The message is of looking for the silver lining. A glass half full, instead of half empty. Haumai may be the disease because it causes suffering, but it is the suffering that rectifies the behavior. If you get burned by touching a hot stove, you learn not to touch it again (hopefully the first time).

    Many people look for the spiritual path when they have been burned by other avenues. Others never learn. They chase after Maya to satisfy their hunger, but to no avail. Gurbani says that this bhukh (hunger) cannot be satiated even by indulging in all the world's pleasures. You will always want more and will never be happy.

    Your Haumai exists because of what you have done in the past. The more you think in duality, the stronger it gets and the harder it is to shake. Someone who has spent their life putting themselves first may have a difficult time shaking Haumai, or even understanding why they suffer. Whereas someone who spent their life putting others first may be able to remove Haumai with ease.

    In the end, it's NOT YOU who is doing anything. It is the One who is doing everything. It is this subtlety that is the key to rising above good and bad or sukh and dukh.
     
  12. Original

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    Sherdil Ji

    Following on from what I ventured out to determine earlier [above] re page 469 of SGGSJ, I remain on course to achieve the same, and in so doing, offer, if you'd like an opinion and general guidance to understand the ebb n flow of Guru Nanak's writings.

    The beautiful thing about SGGSJ is that it is universal and is accessable to all in measures of proportional appetite and circumstance. In a way, it's like a water hole in the middle of the savanna grasslands towards which all living things congregate, particularly in dry season for survival sake. Similarly, for whatever reason we turn to SGGJS is not of any significant consequence, but infact, a divine moment gracefully endowed by Akal Purakh in the face of such uncertain and an indefinite a life to help human struggle. It is important therefore to laud the best of human endeavours to capture thought n feeling of such divine narratives in its originality. For if we don't, then there is the danger in removing essential segments of the crux of the statement. This would not only distort writers intended meaning but also take away the original linguistic conveyance with which the writer set out to achieve in the first place.

    For example, the verses you refer to [Asa di Var 469 SGGSJ] are in I'm my view, drawn out of context. Guru Nanak's main focuses is on the "ineffability" of Akal Purak's deterministic universe [mechanistically working for humankind] in its mystical nature "gracefully" [Nanak used human condition dukhsukh to bring about teleological end]. Nanak places emphasis on grace which leads one to remembrance of and in union with Akal Purakh. It is in this sense that he calls pleasure [sukh] an illness, for it makes one forget the Almighty, but equally reverts to pain [dukh] as a cure, for it is in adversity that we remember God.

    Guru Nanak moves on to praise the Lord by calling Him the creator, Infinite, the True and the One light in all.

    As a summary in lay man's lingo, " oh God you too big n wide for me to comprehend. Even if I try, I'll only kid myself. Thou Art beautiful and look how through sukh n dukh you achieve desired result. Thou Art Thou Art Kool n Deadly".

    I'm sorry but the haumai connection with the shabd 469 is undetectable on my radar.

    Thank you for reading !

    Take care
     
  13. Sherdil

    Sherdil
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    My goodness...you have a talent for saying very little with so many words. Trim the fat and get on with it. There must be better things you can do with your time.

    I found your point here:

    Unfortunately, it's a rehash of what you said before. I still disagree. Haumai creates your suffering because suffering is merely an interpretation of the circumstance. Through the goggles of Haumai, people cry out in pain when things don't go their way. But in suffering they turn to God and start on the path to realization that they are the cause of their own suffering.

    The Soul Bride pining for the Husband Lord can be seen as dukh as well. The pain of separation drives the Soul Bride to close the gap. Without this pain the Soul Bride would remain aloof and in a state of ignorance.

    Either way you spin it, you cannot separate Haumai from dukh. They are intertwined.

    In lay man's lingo? Are you then placing yourself above the "lay man"? Although unnecessary, the above provides us with a good example of Haumai. You see, there is sukh and dukh in everything if you look hard enough.

    May your radar continue to guide us through the murky waters of this world ocean.

    Cheers
     
  14. Original

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    Hey SDJ -

    - you've taken the michael out of what was intended to be an educational text !

    Time allowing ? Scan through my text to bro Chaz Ji on "haumai" in Singh is King.

    Goodnight n Godbless
     
  15. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
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    The five beloved were not in dukh when they pledged to the tenth master. That religion exists as a support mechanism, or a carrot producer is far away from what I call Sikhism. I was in hospital a few months ago, cardiac complications, at no point did I pray or ask for God's help, whatever creative force that created me surely relies on knowing how I feel, what words need to be said, what actions need to be made?

    I am a Sikh, and therefore not afraid of death, dying, pain, suffering, (although I am a bit scared of enclosed spaces, I would chose death over a stuck lift anyday! ) so I have done my best, I am in a hospital with people fussing all over me, not much more I can do, so just throw it in the air and see what happens. Invariably, if one finds god at such times, how stable a relationship is that going to be anyway? a bit like staying with your partner because they have money and you do not,

    so what happened to you two that you made it 25 years of marriage?
    Well, I went bankrupt and Simon wasn't!, and the fear of being alone and broke meant I stayed with Simon!

    A relationship with God that relies on unhappiness as a way of finding him seems strange to me

    Sikhism is a religion, well I say religion, it is more a way of life, that in my opinion, relies on optimism and education, of making mistakes and learning from them, rather than suffering being any key at all.
     
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  16. Sherdil

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    Is suffering a pre-requisite for Divine union? Not at all...that's not what I'm saying.

    To view suffering and pleasure as one is required to be in consonance with the Hukam. To find pleasure in suffering is to be raazi (content) with the Hukam, which is what Gurbani tells us is the key to being truthful. Like my bro Original said, the Hukam is ineffable. Therefore the fault lies with us, it doesn't lie with our stars.

    Ask yourself what it is that you want out of this life? Happiness? Then acceptance and letting go seem to be the key.

    As for the 5 Beloved Ones, I would not say they were in dukh. But I will conclude that their Haumai was very little if not entirely lacking. Thus, they felt no qualms in accepting the Hukam of their Guru.
     
  17. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
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    Suffering is suffering, its a bad place to be,

    I would say it is virtually impossible for a normal human being to view suffering and pleasure as one. To say that one needs to do this to be in consonance with Hukam, is also, in my view, incorrect.

    Hmmmmm again I strongly disagree, you make Hukam sound like the will of God, when I view Hukam more as rules of life, a bit like gravity. For instance if one jumps of a tall building and succumbs to gravity, which in my view, is a Hukam, and then breaks an arm, and is then pleased at such, I do not see a Sikh, I see an idiot. If we eat too much we get fat, if we sleep around we may get an STD, why would any religion advocate pleasure in suffering?

    Mostly? just to know who I am, and be that person

    oh, not at all, I do not wish to be unhappy, but I am through with chasing happiness, its pointless.

    You seem to think of Sikhism and Sikhs as people that view suffering and pleasure as completely the same, I view Sikhs as intelligent people of great wisdom, who, whilst they do not chase pleasure, lead happy and content lives and deal with suffering as and when.
     
  18. japjisahib04

    japjisahib04 Kuwait
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    Suffering is suffering no doubt, but guru sahib throughout is not referring to suffering related with health, financial problem and or from siblings but this pain is due to feeling of separation from Divine, as gurbani tells us, 'ਦੂਖੁ ਘਨੋ ਜਬ ਹੋਤੇ ਦੂਰਿ ॥ I suffer in pain/miseries, when I realize he is far away/separated from me.SGGS.384.12.

    Even when guru sahib says, 'ਕੇਤਿਆ ਦੂਖ ਭੂਖ ਸਦ ਮਾਰ ॥ ਏਹਿ ਭਿ ਦਾਤਿ ਤੇਰੀ ਦਾਤਾਰ ॥ - Since concept of God is karta purakh - creative thus question of bestowing sufferings does not arise, as such over here also guru sahib is referring to pain of separation from Him.

    best regards
     
  19. Original

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    SDJ

    Minor correction, Hukam is Eternal Law [deterministic universe and humankind's moral obligations] and Akal Purakh [beyond time n space divine being] is "ineffable". Some of the language used SGGSJ is interchangeable and synonymous with much of Nanak's dargah parmeshar ki [meeting with the Lord].

    Another interesting observation, if I may, is that Sikhism is very clear on pleasure, happiness and bliss. And, the beauty lies therein, that, sizeable population is trapped in pleasure-land and those who consciously or otherwise manage to get pass that particular comfort zone, home in to the successive happiness one, where they remain indefinitely and make others aspire to, thinking life's B n E is happiness/ contentment and switch off. But, Nanak invites us to taste the state beyond pleasure n happiness - the bliss [anand] .

    In one of your communications SDJ you did "touch" albeit subconsciously. And, I think if we move away from the literal interpretation to the rationale understanding of Gurbani - the penny is more likely to drop than not to, and 24/7 - its "Loveland" - the "one" without.

    Ciao - till another time !
     
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  20. chazSingh

    chazSingh Ireland
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    walking into the dark, you now see and appreciate and understand light...
    touching hot, you forge an experience of the cold..
    through the created, you can come to know what has not been created but which has been present through all ages...
    through form, we can understand and experience the formless...
    through dukh, we seek sukh...
    after oh so many experiences...the soul eventually transcends duality and realizes that all is actually only one...and the soul resides in chardikala

    Ego has it's place...to give you this experience of being completely seperate from waheguru...but the time comes where it must be dissolved so that duality evaporates and we see only one...everywhere...and my grammar and spelling improves :)
     
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  21. Original

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    This is the Chaz I know ! Beautifully said -
     

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