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A Discussion Of McLeod And The Kartarpur Bir Controversy: A Second Look

spnadmin

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virinder ji

I have deleted 3 of your previous posts because, after reading each one, they looked to me like they were the same except for some differences in fonts. Let me know if this was an error on my part. They can be restored if they are different. Please forgive me.
 

vsgrewal48895

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Not really...we already have nearly a million copies of the SGGS. By 1708..quite a few thousand were already in distribution....

But there will always be some who want to.."seed doubts"...so that once Sikhs begin to have doubts about their GURU's "authenticity"....then to seed further doubts becomes real easy....like..is this "bani" authentic..should it be in the sggs....why not remove that bani..it looks.."not quite in line"...??? etc Many tried this approach....agaisnt Raagmala...bhagat bani..bhatt swaiyyas...these types will never stop....the Panch Khalsas Bhasaurri types tried the "rough shod way..simply remove what they dont like and print the new edited sggs ( Akal takhat excomunicated Teja Singh for that and banned his truncated "new sggs"... sans bhagat bani/Bhatt swaiyas and raagmala) others try the "Academic research" way..
Dr Baldev Singh, Dr Mann etc have very ably answered the MCLeod Group. One should read BOTH Groups to arrive at a balanced view. ( Interestingly the SANT BABAS Group couldnt arrive at any written arguments ( as usual)...their approach is sabre rattling/noisy demonstrations/book burning ) During the Panch Khalsa times also they kept aloof....and left it to the likes of Dr Ganda Singh and others to defend Sikh History etc. through well written arguments.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Dear Randip Ji,

To relieve your doubts here is a copy of the writing from Encyclopedia of Sikhism;
Page, 279 describing the history of Banno and his carrying the 2nd copy of Pothi Sahib to his house.

BANNO BHAI (1558-1645)

BANNO, BHAI (1558-1645), a prominent Sikh contemporary of Guru Arjan and Guru Hargobind, was the son of Bhai Bishan Dev of village Mangat, also called Khara-Maligat, Khara being its older name, in Phalia. tahsil of Gujrat district (now in Pakistan). He was born on Saturday, Baisakh sudi 13, 1615 Bk/ 30 April 1558. Banno grew up with a deeply religious disposition. He turned a Sikh and rendered diligent service during the construction of Harimandar at Amritsar under Guru Arjan. On the completion of the compilation of (Guru) Granth Sahib in 1604, Guru Arjan deputed Bhai Banno to carry the holy volume to Lahore for binding. The later with the Guru's permission first carried it to his village and then brought it back to Lahore. During his journey to and from his village he prepared his own copy of the Holy Book. He got, both the copies bound and brought them to the Guru, who installed the original copy (Adi Bir) in the Harimandar and returned the other copy to Bhai Banno. This recension came to be known as Bhai Banno Vali Bir or Khare Vali Bir, because the Bhai had installed it in his own house at Khara-Maligat.

Bhai Banno continued to preach Sikh tenets in the north-western parts of the Punjab till his death in Magh 1701 Bk/January 1645.

BIBLIOGRAPHY

1. Bhalla, Sarup Das, Mahima Prakash. Patiala, 1971

2. Bal, Rajinder Singh, Bhai Banno Darpan. Jalandhar, 1989

3. Bhai Banno Sahib. Kanpur, n. d.

4. Gurbilas Chhevlri Patshahi. Patiala, 1970

Cordially,
Virinder
 

Gyani Jarnail Singh

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Virinder Ji,

I posted my comments based on the research of Prof Sahib Singh and the scholarly work of the Late Daljeet Singh of IOSS who wrote an Abstract..Authenticity of the Kartarpur Bir. In that he dissects each of the many reasons and fallcious arguments agaisnt KB.
He cites his conclusion that Bhai bannos Bir is a later production and copy of the KB. I agree with his point as all the arguments about Blank pages and margin insertions have a perfectly logical answer. The Blank pages about 560 out of total 970...is proof od Originality rather than Copy..because the Blanks show that Bhai Gurdass was over guessing pages needed for Gurbani..while a Copyist wouldnt need to have EXTRA pages as he is merely COPYING a FINISHED Product. Margin insertions ahppend when Bhai Gurdass ji UNDERESTIMATED the pages and ran short...

My assertion about "seeders of doubt" apply generally to many.... Please dont take it personally just because you posted this article. My mail makes it clear who i consider such seeders to be....from the Dhirmalliahs..the Hindalis..to Bhasuaris..and MC Leodians....the list is long...

The Bhai banno story is too much full of holes....Guru Arjun ji would never let such a valuable PIO DADDEH da KHAZANAH.....out of his sight...just for binding....and IF Banno can take it away to his village..wouldnt the other Sikhs also wnat that privilege..the Granth would never come back ( Personally many of my books never returned once they were "borrowed" !! and Libraries i connect with also have the same story...people never change..)

Cordially
 

spnadmin

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Virinder ji

With folded hands, and complete respect for the value of this discussion and your contribution, I ask that you not post the same article again. Thank you. aad0002
 

pk70

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Feb 25, 2008
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Virinder Ji,

I posted my comments based on the research of Prof Sahib Singh and the scholarly work of the Late Daljeet Singh of IOSS who wrote an Abstract..Authenticity of the Kartarpur Bir. In that he dissects each of the many reasons and fallcious arguments agaisnt KB.
He cites his conclusion that Bhai bannos Bir is a later production and copy of the KB. I agree with his point as all the arguments about Blank pages and margin insertions have a perfectly logical answer. The Blank pages about 560 out of total 970...is proof od Originality rather than Copy..because the Blanks show that Bhai Gurdass was over guessing pages needed for Gurbani..while a Copyist wouldnt need to have EXTRA pages as he is merely COPYING a FINISHED Product. Margin insertions ahppend when Bhai Gurdass ji UNDERESTIMATED the pages and ran short...

My assertion about "seeders of doubt" apply generally to many.... Please dont take it personally just because you posted this article. My mail makes it clear who i consider such seeders to be....from the Dhirmalliahs..the Hindalis..to Bhasuaris..and MC Leodians....the list is long...

The Bhai banno story is too much full of holes....Guru Arjun ji would never let such a valuable PIO DADDEH da KHAZANAH.....out of his sight...just for binding....and IF Banno can take it away to his village..wouldnt the other Sikhs also wnat that privilege..the Granth would never come back ( Personally many of my books never returned once they were "borrowed" !! and Libraries i connect with also have the same story...people never change..)

Cordially

Gyani Jarnail Singh Ji
I concur.
Dr Sahib Singh Ji has given a logic anaysis to test the story of Bhai Bano. GB Singh also rushed to conclusion just because he was not shown one Bir he wanted to see. As you have pointed out earlier, it is to create the doubt. Randip Singh Ji asked earlier “What big difference it makes if it is not the original one?”, I agree with him too. So what if there are only two lines of Fifth Nanak in Rahg Ramkali?. Why all Fifth Nanak’s banis are not read and check out what he says in essence? Are these guys are saying that there were more than two lines and Guru might have written something he never wrote in his previous banis? Just because there are only two lines, does it mean some thing was omitted that goes against the concept of Guru Message? And here are these guys like Pashoura Singfh to warn Sikhs. It is a game to get name in headlines and to keep means of living safe to please the provider of that. Look at the article on Bano, whatever is written there, on what ground it can be true?
 

vsgrewal48895

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Guru Arjan’s Autobiographical hymns regarding his son;

Guru Arjan wrote about 30 full Sabds regarding Hargobind his only son and the one in question has only two lines which do not end in the name of Nanak. Is there any other example where Guru Arjan has written a Sabd ending with out the name of the Nanak? Here are two Sabds e.g. in favor of his son;

On his Birthday in Raag Asa, AGGS, Page, 396;

ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਸਾਚੈ ਦੀਆ ਭੇਜਿ ॥ ਚਿਰੁ ਜੀਵਨੁ ਉਪਜਿਆ ਸੰਜੋਗਿ ॥ ਉਦਰੈ ਮਾਹਿ ਆਇ ਕੀਆ ਨਿਵਾਸੁ ॥ ਮਾਤਾ ਕੈ ਮਨਿ ਬਹੁਤੁ ਬਿਗਾਸੁ ॥ ਜੰਮਿਆ ਪੂਤੁ ਭਗਤੁ ਗੋਵਿੰਦ ਕਾ ॥ ਪ੍ਰਗਟਿਆ ਸਭ ਮਹਿ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਧੁਰ ਕਾ ॥ ਦਸੀ ਮਾਸੀ ਹੁਕਮਿ ਬਾਲਕ ਜਨਮੁ ਲੀਆ ॥ ਮਿਟਿਆ ਸੋਗੁ ਮਹਾ ਅਨੰਦੁ ਥੀਆ ॥ ਗੁਰਬਾਣੀ ਸਖੀ ਅਨੰਦੁ ਗਾਵੈ ॥ ਸਾਚੇ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਕੈ ਮਨਿ ਭਾਵੈ ॥ ਵਧੀ ਵੇਲਿ ਬਹੁ ਪੀੜੀ ਚਾਲੀ ॥ ਧਰਮ ਕਲਾ ਹਰਿ ਬੰਧਿ ਬਹਾਲੀ ॥ ਮਨ ਚਿੰਦਿਆ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਦਿਵਾਇਆ ॥ ਭਏ ਅਚਿੰਤ ਏਕ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਇਆ ॥ ਜਿਉ ਬਾਲਕੁ ਪਿਤਾ ਊਪਰਿ ਕਰੇ ਬਹੁ ਮਾਣੁ ॥ ਬੁਲਾਇਆ ਬੋਲੈ ਗੁਰ ਕੈ ਭਾਣਿ ॥ ਗੁਝੀ ਛੰਨੀ ਨਾਹੀ ਬਾਤ ॥ ਗੁਰੁ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਤੁਠਾ ਕੀਨੀ ਦਾਤਿ ॥

Saṯgur sācẖai ḏī▫ā bẖej. Cẖir jīvan upji▫ā sanjog. Uḏrai māhi ā▫e kī▫ā nivās. Māṯā kai man bahuṯ bigās. Jammi▫ā pūṯ bẖagaṯ govinḏ kā. Pargati▫ā sabẖ mėh likẖi▫ā ḏẖur kā. Ḏasī māsī hukam bālak janam lī▫ā. Miti▫ā sog mahā anand thī▫ā. Gurbāṇī sakẖī anand gāvai. Sācẖe sāhib kai man bẖāvai. vaḏẖī vel baho pīṛī cẖālī. Ḏẖaram kalā har banḏẖ bahālī. Man cẖinḏi▫ā saṯgurū ḏivā▫i▫ā. Bẖa▫e acẖinṯ ek liv lā▫i▫ā. Ji▫o bālak piṯā ūpar kare baho māṇ. Bulā▫i▫ā bolai gur kai bẖāṇ. Gujẖī cẖẖannī nāhī bāṯ. Gur Nānak ṯuṯẖā kīnī ḏāṯ.

The True Guru has truly given a child. The long-lived one has been born to this destiny.
He came to acquire a home in the womb, and his mother's heart is so very glad. A son is born - a devotee of the Creator of the Universe. This pre-ordained destiny has been revealed to all. In the tenth month, by the God's Order, the baby has been born. Sorrow is dispelled, and great joy has ensued. The companions blissfully sing the songs of the Guru's Bani. This is pleasing to the Eternal Akal Purkh. The vine has grown, and shall last for many generations. The Power of the Righteousness has been firmly established by the God. That which my mind wishes for, the True Guru has granted. I have become carefree, and I fix my attention on the One Akal Purkh. As the child places so much faith in his father, I speak as it pleases the Guru to have me speak.This is not a hidden secret; Guru Nanak, greatly pleased, has bestowed this gift.-----Guru Arjan, Raag Asa, AGGS, Page, 396

2nd Sabd when Hargobind was afflicted by small pox’

ਮੇਰਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਰਖਵਾਲਾ ਹੋਆ ॥ ਧਾਰਿ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਹਾਥ ਦੇ ਰਾਖਿਆ ਹਰਿ ਗੋਵਿਦੁ ਨਵਾ ਨਿਰੋਆ ॥ ਤਾਪੁ ਗਇਆ ਪ੍ਰਭਿ ਆਪਿ ਮਿਟਾਇਆ ਜਨ ਕੀ ਲਾਜ ਰਖਾਈ ॥ ਸਾਧਸੰਗਤਿ ਤੇ ਸਭ ਫਲ ਪਾਏ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕੈ ਬਲਿ ਜਾਂਈ ॥ ਹਲਤੁ ਪਲਤੁ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਦੋਵੈ ਸਵਾਰੇ ਹਮਰਾ ਗੁਣੁ ਅਵਗੁਣੁ ਨ ਬੀਚਾਰਿਆ ॥ ਅਟਲ ਬਚਨੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰ ਤੇਰਾ ਸਫਲ ਕਰੁ ਮਸਤਕਿ ਧਾਰਿਆ ॥

Merā saṯgur rakẖvālā ho▫ā. Ḏẖār kirpā parabẖ hāth ḏe rākẖi▫ā har goviḏ navā niro▫ā. Ŧāp ga▫i▫ā parabẖ āp mitā▫i▫ā jan kī lāj rakẖā▫ī. Sāḏẖsangaṯ ṯe sabẖ fal pā▫e saṯgur kai bal jāʼn▫ī. Halaṯ palaṯ parabẖ ḏovai savāre hamrā guṇ avguṇ na bīcẖāri▫ā. Atal bacẖan Nānak gur ṯerā safal kar masṯak ḏẖāri▫ā.

My True Guru is my Savior and Protector. Showering us with Its Mercy and Grace, God extended Its Hand, and saved Hargobind, who is now safe and secure. The fever is gone - God It self eradicated it, and preserved the honor of Its servant. I have obtained all blessings from the Company of the Holy; I am a sacrifice to the True Guru. God has saved me, both here and hereafter. God has not taken my merits and demerits into account. Your Word is eternal, O Guru Nanak; You placed Your Hand of blessing upon my forehead. -----Guru Arjan, Raag Sorath, AGGS, Page, 620

I do not want my name in head lines or media but just asked a question-should there be no solid reply or the thread should be closed as unanswered. I had already gave my answer that the Sabd in Banno Bir is complete describing the puberty ceremony of Guru Arjan’s son.

Rituals were being followed at that time as there was no way Gurus could have eradicated the centuries old customs in an instant. There is nothing here to get upset about it-just needs an open mind tyo accept.

Respectfully Submitted,

Virinder S. Grewal
Williamston, MI
 

pk70

Writer
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Feb 25, 2008
1,582
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Guru Arjan’s Autobiographical hymns regarding his son;

Guru Arjan wrote about 30 full Sabds regarding Hargobind his only son and the one in question has only two lines which do not end in the name of Nanak. Is there any other example where Guru Arjan has written a Sabd ending with out the name of the Nanak? Here are two Sabds e.g. in favor of his son;

On his Birthday in Raag Asa, AGGS, Page, 396;

ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਸਾਚੈ ਦੀਆ ਭੇਜਿ ॥ ਚਿਰੁ ਜੀਵਨੁ ਉਪਜਿਆ ਸੰਜੋਗਿ ॥ ਉਦਰੈ ਮਾਹਿ ਆਇ ਕੀਆ ਨਿਵਾਸੁ ॥ ਮਾਤਾ ਕੈ ਮਨਿ ਬਹੁਤੁ ਬਿਗਾਸੁ ॥ ਜੰਮਿਆ ਪੂਤੁ ਭਗਤੁ ਗੋਵਿੰਦ ਕਾ ॥ ਪ੍ਰਗਟਿਆ ਸਭ ਮਹਿ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਧੁਰ ਕਾ ॥ ਦਸੀ ਮਾਸੀ ਹੁਕਮਿ ਬਾਲਕ ਜਨਮੁ ਲੀਆ ॥ ਮਿਟਿਆ ਸੋਗੁ ਮਹਾ ਅਨੰਦੁ ਥੀਆ ॥ ਗੁਰਬਾਣੀ ਸਖੀ ਅਨੰਦੁ ਗਾਵੈ ॥ ਸਾਚੇ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਕੈ ਮਨਿ ਭਾਵੈ ॥ ਵਧੀ ਵੇਲਿ ਬਹੁ ਪੀੜੀ ਚਾਲੀ ॥ ਧਰਮ ਕਲਾ ਹਰਿ ਬੰਧਿ ਬਹਾਲੀ ॥ ਮਨ ਚਿੰਦਿਆ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਦਿਵਾਇਆ ॥ ਭਏ ਅਚਿੰਤ ਏਕ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਇਆ ॥ ਜਿਉ ਬਾਲਕੁ ਪਿਤਾ ਊਪਰਿ ਕਰੇ ਬਹੁ ਮਾਣੁ ॥ ਬੁਲਾਇਆ ਬੋਲੈ ਗੁਰ ਕੈ ਭਾਣਿ ॥ ਗੁਝੀ ਛੰਨੀ ਨਾਹੀ ਬਾਤ ॥ ਗੁਰੁ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਤੁਠਾ ਕੀਨੀ ਦਾਤਿ ॥

Saṯgur sācẖai ḏī▫ā bẖej. Cẖir jīvan upji▫ā sanjog. Uḏrai māhi ā▫e kī▫ā nivās. Māṯā kai man bahuṯ bigās. Jammi▫ā pūṯ bẖagaṯ govinḏ kā. Pargati▫ā sabẖ mėh likẖi▫ā ḏẖur kā. Ḏasī māsī hukam bālak janam lī▫ā. Miti▫ā sog mahā anand thī▫ā. Gurbāṇī sakẖī anand gāvai. Sācẖe sāhib kai man bẖāvai. vaḏẖī vel baho pīṛī cẖālī. Ḏẖaram kalā har banḏẖ bahālī. Man cẖinḏi▫ā saṯgurū ḏivā▫i▫ā. Bẖa▫e acẖinṯ ek liv lā▫i▫ā. Ji▫o bālak piṯā ūpar kare baho māṇ. Bulā▫i▫ā bolai gur kai bẖāṇ. Gujẖī cẖẖannī nāhī bāṯ. Gur Nānak ṯuṯẖā kīnī ḏāṯ.

The True Guru has truly given a child. The long-lived one has been born to this destiny.
He came to acquire a home in the womb, and his mother's heart is so very glad. A son is born - a devotee of the Creator of the Universe. This pre-ordained destiny has been revealed to all. In the tenth month, by the God's Order, the baby has been born. Sorrow is dispelled, and great joy has ensued. The companions blissfully sing the songs of the Guru's Bani. This is pleasing to the Eternal Akal Purkh. The vine has grown, and shall last for many generations. The Power of the Righteousness has been firmly established by the God. That which my mind wishes for, the True Guru has granted. I have become carefree, and I fix my attention on the One Akal Purkh. As the child places so much faith in his father, I speak as it pleases the Guru to have me speak.This is not a hidden secret; Guru Nanak, greatly pleased, has bestowed this gift.-----Guru Arjan, Raag Asa, AGGS, Page, 396

2nd Sabd when Hargobind was afflicted by small pox’

ਮੇਰਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਰਖਵਾਲਾ ਹੋਆ ॥ ਧਾਰਿ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਹਾਥ ਦੇ ਰਾਖਿਆ ਹਰਿ ਗੋਵਿਦੁ ਨਵਾ ਨਿਰੋਆ ॥ ਤਾਪੁ ਗਇਆ ਪ੍ਰਭਿ ਆਪਿ ਮਿਟਾਇਆ ਜਨ ਕੀ ਲਾਜ ਰਖਾਈ ॥ ਸਾਧਸੰਗਤਿ ਤੇ ਸਭ ਫਲ ਪਾਏ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕੈ ਬਲਿ ਜਾਂਈ ॥ ਹਲਤੁ ਪਲਤੁ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਦੋਵੈ ਸਵਾਰੇ ਹਮਰਾ ਗੁਣੁ ਅਵਗੁਣੁ ਨ ਬੀਚਾਰਿਆ ॥ ਅਟਲ ਬਚਨੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰ ਤੇਰਾ ਸਫਲ ਕਰੁ ਮਸਤਕਿ ਧਾਰਿਆ ॥

Merā saṯgur rakẖvālā ho▫ā. Ḏẖār kirpā parabẖ hāth ḏe rākẖi▫ā har goviḏ navā niro▫ā. Ŧāp ga▫i▫ā parabẖ āp mitā▫i▫ā jan kī lāj rakẖā▫ī. Sāḏẖsangaṯ ṯe sabẖ fal pā▫e saṯgur kai bal jāʼn▫ī. Halaṯ palaṯ parabẖ ḏovai savāre hamrā guṇ avguṇ na bīcẖāri▫ā. Atal bacẖan Nānak gur ṯerā safal kar masṯak ḏẖāri▫ā.

My True Guru is my Savior and Protector. Showering us with Its Mercy and Grace, God extended Its Hand, and saved Hargobind, who is now safe and secure. The fever is gone - God It self eradicated it, and preserved the honor of Its servant. I have obtained all blessings from the Company of the Holy; I am a sacrifice to the True Guru. God has saved me, both here and hereafter. God has not taken my merits and demerits into account. Your Word is eternal, O Guru Nanak; You placed Your Hand of blessing upon my forehead. -----Guru Arjan, Raag Sorath, AGGS, Page, 620

I do not want my name in head lines or media but just asked a question-should there be no solid reply or the thread should be closed as unanswered. I had already gave my answer that the Sabd in Banno Bir is complete describing the puberty ceremony of Guru Arjan’s son.

Rituals were being followed at that time as there was no way Gurus could have eradicated the centuries old customs in an instant. There is nothing here to get upset about it-just needs an open mind tyo accept.

Respectfully Submitted,

Virinder S. Grewal
Williamston, MI

With all due respect Varinder S Grewal Ji,
You have a problem of "Me-ism", whenever some one writes in disagreement with you, either you feel attacked or criticized. Look at in Gyani ji's context, "seeders of doubts", you thought he wrote about you, he has to explain that it was not about you. I wrote above " to get line in head lines", you think, it is all about you. Take a deep breath, over come your "Me" and swallow the truth about Dhirmalye in context of "seeders of doubts" and Pashoura Singh in "to get in headliners". By the way, who is provider of means of living to you? I doubt there is any one but there is or was one boss of Pashoura Singh, then why your "Me" jumped in? You need relaxing
.
I shall comment on your Gurbani ddistorting later on, just wait, I hope you will be relaxed and debate that issue too.:)
 
Read in bigger font at
http://www.singhsabhacanada.com/Articles/114
Dr. McLeod and His Followers Don't Understand Gurbani

ਸਿੰਘ ਸਭਾ ਇੰਟਰਨੈਸ਼ਨਲ




Dr. Pashaura Singh's Research at a Glance
  1. In 1975 Dr. Mcleod in his book, "Evolution of Sikh Community" started a debate on the text of Sikh Scripture and floated the idea that the Kartarpur bir must be a first draft, subsequently amended by the Guru himself (p.77).
    It was done fully knowing the facts brought out in the book Kartarpuri Bir De Darshan, by Professor / Bhai Jodh Singh (Former Vice-Chancellor, Punjabi University, Patiala), published in 1968. Professor Jodh Singh reviewed the book “Evolution of the Sikh Community “ and answered the textual questions raised by McLeod (See his Review published in the Appendix A pages 81-83) of the book by Sardar Daljeet Singh, "Authenticity of Kartarpuri Bir". Published by Punjabi University in 1987.
  2. In spite of the above documented evidence, Dr. Mcleod and Pashaura Singh initiated the research on the text and history of the Sikh Scripture in the Department of Religious Studies at Toronto in 1987. They introduced MS 1245 (Manu Script 1245) from Guru Nanak Dev University and relied heavily on it without establishing its authenticity. The thesis, The Text and the Meaning of the Adi Granth, that Pashaura Singh completed in 1991 under the supervision of Dr. Mcleod and Dr. Joseph T. O'Connell did not answer the following questions: (a) How they came to know about the MS 1245 at GNDU? (b) Who wrote two articles under the authorship of Dr. Lohelin while he was totally disabled and that too after his death? For details see Chapter 6, "Manipulation and Deception" in Discovering Mcleod and His Works by Dr. Baldev Singh.
  3. Pashaura Singh faithfully picked up the idea of first draft floated by his mentor and went on to prove that MS 1245 is an early draft of the Adi Granth on which Guru Arjan Dev has worked to finally produce the text of the Adi Granth (Thesis, p.24).
    On the basis of questionable documents, he questioned the history, originality and authenticity of the text of Sri Granth Sahib. About 30 Sikh Scholars in the book "Planned attack on Aad Sri Guru Granth Sahib: Academics or Blasphemy" (Biodata on pages 323-326, also click on Authors of Global Sikh Studies) presented their critique on the research done by Dr. Pashaura Singh on Guru Granth Sahib.
    For details of this planned attack, read the introduction pages 1-39 .
  4. Opinion of Dr. Bishan Singh Samundri (Former Vice-Chancellor, GNDU, Amritsar): "It is indeed very unfortuante that Pashaura Singh's attack on the authenticity of Guru Granth Sahib is sought to be based on a manuscript called a draft by Guru Arjun Dev, when its text bears in its contents the date of demise of the Fifth Master." See Foreword in the book, "Planned Attack on Aad Sri Guru Granth Sahb: Academics or Blasphemy".
  5. Opinion of Justice Ram Singh Bindra (Retd., High Court of Assam and Nagaland): (The Book Planned Attack) "is a very welcome contribution exposing the ugly and sinister designs of the group ending in the thesis of Pashaura Singh aimed at eroding the originality and authenticity of Guru Granth Sahib as is evidenced by the Kartarpuri Bir". See the back cover page of "Planned Attack on Aad Sri Guru Granth Sahib: Academics or Blasphemy", for his full statement.
  6. Professor Pritam Singh (65 years experience of teaching and analyzing Sikh Manuscripts) proved that Guru Arjan never used Goindwal Pothi (Ahyapur Pothi) for the preparation or a source for Aad Guru Granth in 1604 as suggested by Dr. Pashaura Singh in his book Guru Granth Sahib Cannon Meaning and Authority (p.41) that the text of the extant Goindval Pothis belongs to the original Goindwal Pothis. (See Ahyapur Pothi (Goindwal Pothi).
  7. Analysis of Dr. Balwant Singh Dhillon, Head Dept. of Guru Nanak Studies at GNDU (25 years experience of teaching and analyzing old Sikh manuscripts) proved in his book, "Early Sikh Scriptural Tradition" , on pages 89-182 that Goindwal Pothi as suggested by Dr. Pashaura Singh, was never used by Guru Arjan in the preparation or as a source of Aad Guru Granth in 1604. Various forms of Mul Mantar in Goindwal Pothi (see page 135), Arrangement of hymns (see page 149-168), Missing Compositions (see pages 169-172), Kachi Bani or Apocryphal Writings (see pages 173-182)
  8. In 1991 while writing his thesis, Pashaura Singh presented MS 1245 as an early draft of the Adi Granth. Struck by the criticism by the Sikh scholars, now he calls it an incomplete draft on which Guru Arjan worked to produce the final version (p.46). Analysis of Dr. Balwant Singh Dhillon, Head Dept. of Guru Nanak Studies at GNDU proved in "Early Sikh Scriptural Tradition" pages 182-258 that MS 1245 as suggested by Dr. Pashaura Singh was never used by Guru Arjan in the preparation or as a source of Aad Guru Granth in 1604. Absent Hymns in MS 1245 (see pages 244-245), Hymns recorded twice in MS 1245 (see page 246), Kachi Bani or Apochryphal Writings in MS 1245 (see pages 247-258)
  9. For authenticity of any document following FOUR academic parameters must be established before its use:
    1. Date of Document (When it was Written): To establish his finding of early draft in the form of MS 1245 and to prove its early origin, in 1991 Pashaura Singh went on to mislead the scholars that the last date (Samat 1663 Jeth Sudi 4 i.e. June 1606). In the table of death dates has been inserted later on (Thesis, p.28). Now he calls that the whole table of death dates has been inserted later on (Book, p.51). He has come to the conclusion that MS 1245 was completed in 1599 and it is the same document which Guru Arjan had shown to emperor Akbar in 1598 (Book, pp.45-46). All these are wild conjectures. There is no external or internal evidence to prove them. The internal evidence of the manuscript on folio 1255 clearly shows the death dates of the first five Sikh gurus are recorded by the primary scribe with the same pen and in the same shade of ink. It proves that this document was written after 1606, the year when the fifth guru had expired. Please see Plate XIII on page 235 of the book, "Early Sikh Scriptural Tradition".
    2. History of the Document: Pashaura Singh did not go into the history of the document. The dealer who sold this manuscript to GNDU made a statement at Sri Akal Takht on May 5, 1993 that he bought this manuscript from a waste paper dealer going on a cycle in the state of Rajasthan, India in 1979-1980. He also confessed that the note given on the front of the manuscript in relation to the Hymn of Baba Buddha was not based on any research. For details see "Statement of the Chawlas at Sri Akal Takht Sahib" on page 243. Therefore, it is clear that there is no known history of the document prior to 1979-1980. Dr. Pashaura Singh completely ignored to find the history of the document. He failed to note that the alleged hand of Baba Buddha recorded on a separate paper has been pasted on the initial folio of MS 1245 (See Early Sikh Scriptural Tradition, p.208). Ignoring all these facts, Pashaura Singh still puts MS 1245 in the custody of Baba Buddha and his descendents (Book, pp.42-43).
    3. Who is the Scribe : Pashaura Singh simply conjectured but was unable to identify who was the real scribe of MS1245. In 1991, Pashaura Singh assumed that the scribe of MS 1245 was a close associate of Guru Amar Das possibly Bhai Gurdas (Thesis, p.28). At that time he suggested that Bhai Gurdas may have further improved his hand-writing by the time he wrote the final draft of the Adi Granth (Thesis, p.26). Now in his book he states that the entire writing work of MS 1245 has been done by one hand only (Book, p.43). All these are very immature statements which have been made to convince the scholars to drive on the highway of textual criticism of Sikh Scripture without any honesty and responsibility. Even a novice in the field of manuscriptology can judge that more than tow scribes have been employed to prepare MS 1245 (See Early Sikh Scriptural Tradition, plates X, XI, XII on pp. 231, 232, 233).
    4. Internal Inconsistency : The internal evidence of MS 1245 clearly shows the inclusion of a large number of Apocryphal Writings or Kachi Bani attributed to the Sikh Gurus, (See Early Sikh Scriptural Tradition pp. 247-258). What is the source of these writings? Who were the authors of these writings? Why have such a large number of them found their way into MS 1245? Why would Guru Arjan compose Kachi-Bani to exclude it later on? Why would Guru Arjan compile a document full of Kachi-Bani and would show it to emperor Akbar? Why would Bhai Gurdas write a manuscript full of Kachi-Bani? All these are very important issues which Pashaura Singh has very conveniently skipped over to say that it will be discussed in a separate study (Book p. 46). He has constructed a genealogy of manuscripts to establish a direct relationship between the text of Goindwal pothis, MS 1245 and Kartarpuri Bir. In doing so he blatantly ignores the textual variants which prove that all these manuscripts have not descended one after another (see Pritam Singh, Ahiyapur wali Pothi and Balwant Singh Dhillon Early Sikh Scriptural Tradition, pp. 209-227).
    5. Pashaura Singh failed to establish, based upon the above academic criteria, the authenticity of MS 1245 before its use in his research work . Not only this, he flouts the norms of historical criticism to establish the early origin of MS 1245. For example (a) He says there are certain instances of recording of only the opening lines of Guru Arjan’s hymns followed by blank spaces and says these hymns were not available to the scribe in their final form (Book p. 45). Would it be possible for anyone to believe that Guru Arjan who prepared this manuscript has no access to his own writings? (b) MS 1245 does not contain Bhagat-Bani. Pashaura Singh claims that Guru Arjan’s primary concern was to fix the hymns of the Sikh Gurus first and then to deal with issue of the Bhagats. He makes a wild claim that Guru Arjan was collecting the hymns of the Bhagats in another volume to include them later in a final recension (Book pp. 50,51). Where is this volume? He has no answer. Perhaps he will present it at some later stage. (c) MS 1245 contains only the sawwayas of Kalh Bhat. Pashaura Singh remarks that by the time this manuscript was written some of the bards had not yet appeared in the Guru’s court (Book p. 51). In doing so he betrays lack of knowledge that the Bhats led by Bhikha had already appeared in the court of Guru Amardas and their sawwayas in praise of Gurus are well preserved in Guru Granth Sahib. (d) Regarding the movement of MS 1245 he ignores the notes put on different folios by Piar Singh (See Early Sikh Scriptural Tradition, plate VII, p. 186). (e) Pashaura Singh acknowledges the fact that the text of Japji in Guru Granth Sahib has come from the copy of Guru Ram Das (Book p. 283). But he contradicts himself when on the basis of MS 1245 he alleges Guru Ram Das and Guru Arjan for making modification and revising the text of Japji and its Moolmantra (Book pp. 85-96). (f) In order to confuse the history of the text Pashaura Singh states that during the 18 th and early 19 th century no one version of the Adi Granth was accepted by all the Sikhs (Book pp. 224, 225). To create history of the text he visualizes Maharaja Ranjit Singh’s role to prepare an authorized version of the Sikh Scripture (Book p. 227). All these are sweeping statements which are without any valid and authoritative evidence. (g) He also concludes that the Dasam Granth enjoyed an equal status with the Adi Granth in the 18 th and 19 th centuries. He says, both the Granths were installed side by side on the same platform (Book p.279). This is again a statement without any evidence. It dilutes the authority of Guru Granth Sahib as a sole canon and scripture of the Sikhs. (h) Pashuara Singh pleads that Dr. McLeod has revised his view on the issue of so called hymn in Ramkali mode which is found in the Banno recension (Book p.122). This is again a claim without any truth as Dr. McLeod’s omnibus volume (1999) carries the same statement that he had made in 1975.
  10. Sri Guru Granth Sahib is the only authentic source of Sikh Studies. Prof. Sahib Singh has proved through the internal evidence of SGGS, "Guru Nanak had in possession all compositions of Bhagats and all compositions of the first four gurus were in possession with Guru Arjan Dev when he compiled Guru Granth Sahib in 1604") Printable version of this book is available at the Sikh Research and Education Center's site.
  11. Dr. Gurmel Singh Sidhu, a known researcher and eminent Punjabi writer has also proved through internal evidence of SGGS that Guru Arjan never used the sources suggested by Dr. Pashaura Singh for the compilation of Aad Guru Granth in 1604. See CONTROVERSY ABOUT THE COMPILATION OF AAD GURU GRANTH: A DISCUSSION IN FUTILE - Dr. Gurmel Singh Sidhu [please use PunjabiFonts.zip to install and view this powerpoint correctly] His comprehensive analysis showed that "Pashaura Singh's Ph.D. thesis is full of factual mistakes on the basis of which he drew conclusions regarding the authenticity of the Aad Guru Granth Sahib. His data does not yield results, rather the results are superimposed on the data. It seems that his conclusions were preconceived and the data was concocted to comply with the desired results. See pages 63-84 in "Planned Attack on Aad Sri Guru Granth Sahib : Academics or Blasphemy."
  12. On June 25, 1994, Pashaura Singh appeared before Sri Akal Takhat Sahib and accepted the Tankah for his wrong conclusions and promised to revise his thesis. Later on he wrote “… I appeared before the Akal Takhat as a “devout Sikh”, not as a scholar. I had made it quite clear to the Jathedar Manjit Singh at that time and he agreed with me. Anyone who has read my book The Guru Granth Sahib: Canon, Meaning and Authority* (Oxford University Press, 2000) will know that I did not compromise my academic freedom.” (Letter of Dr. Pashaura Singh dated 21-3-2003 to S. Jagpal Singh Tiwana on internet)
  13. Sikh Scholars and the Coalition of Sikh Gurudwaras of California are of the consensus of opinion that Pashaura Singh's research clearly implies that the compilation of Aad Guru Granth in 1604 by Guru Arjan was based on unauthentic sources, suggesting that first four gurus received a revelation of Kachi Bani / Apocryphal Hymns which were edited by Guru Arjan in 1604. His research work based upon unauthentic documents challenges the revelatory nature and therefore the authenticity and originality of the Dhur Ki bani. This implies that the tenants of the Sikhism are derived from Kachi Bani which is highly uncalled for. ( Pashaura Singh Turns His Back To Akal Takht - Sikhs Appeal To Akal Takht Jathedar published in India Journal, June 24, 2005, and India Post, July 1, 2005, Indian Newspapers in California)
  14. SGPC Forms Academic Committee in July 2005, Jathedar Akal Takhat asks Pashaura Singh nine academic questions, but receives no response. On 01/17/06 Sri Akal Takhat, issues Gurmata to Sikh Sangat worldwide.
 

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This is how the episode ended according to the synopsis of SSI, which forum member Singh ji has generously shared with the forum.

On June 25, 1994, Pashaura Singh appeared before Sri Akal Takhat Sahib and accepted the Tankah for his wrong conclusions and promised to revise his thesis. Later on he wrote “… I appeared before the Akal Takhat as a “devout Sikh”, not as a scholar. I had made it quite clear to the Jathedar Manjit Singh at that time and he agreed with me. Anyone who has read my book The Guru Granth Sahib: Canon, Meaning and Authority* (Oxford University Press, 2000) will know that I did not compromise my academic freedom.” (Letter of Dr. Pashaura Singh dated 21-3-2003 to S. Jagpal Singh Tiwana on internet).

Let us stipulate that Dr. Pashaura Singh agreed he was in error and also did not feel that his academic freedom was compromised. Some would like to know more about the specifics of the Banno Bir purely for the sake of historical interest. No reason to get carried away. Everyone who accepts the authority of the Kartarpur Bir will continue in their belief, including me. Those who are skeptical will either continue to be skeptical -- or they may even have a change of mind, and clear their doubts. Sikhism is unlike the Roman Catholic Church, which has a special office with the sole purpose of stifling "unacceptable" material-- called the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (formerly known as the Spanish Inquisition).
 
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Let us stipulate that Dr. Pashaura Singh agreed he was in error and also did feel that his academic freedom was compromised. Some would like to know more about the specifics of the Banno Bir purely for the sake of historical interest. No reason to get carried away. Everyone who accepts the authority of the Kartarpur Bir will continue in their belief, including me. Those who are skeptical will either continue to be skeptical -- or they may even have a change of mind, and clear their doubts. Sikhism is unlike the Roman Catholic Church, which has a special office with the sole purpose of stifling "unacceptable" material-- called the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (formerly known as the Spanish Inquisition).

I agree but there should a substance to look into. How come only Bhai Bano story interests them?
The funny thing is that these skeptical people say about rituals mentioned in Bano-Bir, they think these rituals were not eradicated by Guru himself( Laughable), there are many Guru Vaakas by Fifth Nanak in which rituals are condemned.(SGGS 216)
ਗਉੜੀ ਮਾਲਾ ਮਹਲਾ [/FONT]॥[/FONT] ਹਰਿ ਬਿਨੁ ਅਵਰ ਕ੍ਰਿਆ ਬਿਰਥੇ [/FONT]॥[/FONT] ਜਪ ਤਪ ਸੰਜਮ ਕਰਮ ਕਮਾਣੇ ਇਹਿ ਓਰੈ ਮੂਸੇ ॥[/FONT]॥[/FONT] ਰਹਾਉ [/FONT]॥[/FONT]
Ga▫oṛī mālā mėhlā 5.[/FONT] Har bin avar kir▫ā birthe.[/FONT] Jap ṯap sanjam karam kamāṇe ihi orai mūse. ||1|| rahā▫o.[/FONT]
Gauri Mala 5th Guru.[/FONT] Without remembering God, all other deeds are vain.[/FONT] The performance of lip recitation, penance, self-mortification, and other rites, all this is plundered near at hand at hand. Pause.[/FONT]
ਅਵਰ = [/FONT]ਹੋਰ।ਕ੍ਰਿਆ = [/FONT]ਕਰਮ।ਸੰਜਮ = [/FONT]ਮਨਨੂੰਵਿਕਾਰਾਂਵਲੋਂਰੋਕਣਦੇਜਤਨ।ਇਹਿ = {'[/FONT]ਇਹ' [/FONT]ਤੋਂਬਹੁ-[/FONT]ਵਚਨ}[/FONT]।[/FONT]ਓਰੈ = [/FONT]ਉਰੇਉਰੇਹੀ।ਮੂਸੇ = [/FONT]ਠੱਗੇਜਾਂਦੇਹਨ, [/FONT]ਲੁੱਟੇਜਾਂਦੇਹਨ।[/FONT]੧।ਰਹਾਉ।

[/FONT]
([/FONT]ਹੇਭਾਈ!) [/FONT]ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾਦੇਸਿਮਰਨਤੋਂਬਿਨਾਹੋਰਸਾਰੇ ([/FONT]ਮਿਥੇਹੋਏਧਾਰਮਿਕ) [/FONT]ਕੰਮਵਿਅਰਥਹਨ When Guru sits on a seat and preaches against rituals, how would people stay around Guru when they see rituals being performed in his house? It just doesn’t add up. Dr Sahib Singh ji has done a logical analysis proving that the story of Bhai Bano wrong since it doesn’t measure up to the truth. Shouldn’t we listen to above Guru Vaakas by him instead of chasing the claimed missing lines. Most of the Gurbani is not even understood by these so called scholars and these lines are the solution of their appetite. Why they are not satisfied with Guru’s own words where he values rituals nothing literally? Is the whole concept of ritualism in SGGS is changed due to a few lines found in Bhai Bano-Bir? As put it by Gyani Jarnail Singh ji, it is just a tale of deception started from Guru Times and still it continues.
 
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That is a reasonable question pk70 ji. Here is the answer. You missed the birth of the thread because you were away for a while. This thread was split from the Sword and Shabad thread because it was a digression from the main topic. So this thread was created to study the Banno Bir in some detail. That is how it got started.
 

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Then the server went down last night and I could not finish.

Gyani ji also said this: Dr Baldev Singh, Dr Mann etc have very ably answered the MCLeod Group. One should read BOTH Groups to arrive at a balanced view. ( Interestingly the SANT BABAS Group couldnt arrive at any written arguments ( as usual)...their approach is sabre rattling/noisy demonstrations/book burning ) During the Panch Khalsa times also they kept aloof....and left it to the likes of Dr Ganda Singh and others to defend Sikh History etc. through well written arguments.

That is where we are in the discussion. Once the thread was started, then a number of us got very interested in the purely historical content of the controversy and that has kept the discussion going. In my case it has led me to a fair amount of Internet research on the controversy because it fills in some gaps in my understanding of what started all of this back in 1987. Now I have a better understanding of Dr. Sahib Singh's point of view but also what exactly McLeod was thinking and how he came to his conclusions.
 
Singh Sabha International Canada - Articles
'The Making of Sikh Scripture': Gurinder Singh Mann abets Adverse Controversies

Charnjit Singh Bal

‘The Making of Sikh Scripture’: Gurinder Singh Mann Abets Adverse Controversies besetting Sikhism
Charnjit Singh Bal​
The resumé of Dr. Gurinder Singh Mann’s qualifications and credentials states that he graduated in 1965 CE with Master’s Degree in English from Baring Union Christian College in Batala, Punjab; India, earned his second MA in English in 1975 CE from University of Kent at Canterbury, UK, and Master’s Degree in Theology Studies from Harvard University. He topped his enviable resumé with Ph. D. in religion from Columbia University. The Oxford University Press, that has published Sikh Studies Ph. D. theses of Drs. William Hew. McLeod, Harjot Singh Oberoi, Pashaura Singh, Louis E. Fenech, and Doris Jakobsh, et al, published his‘The Making of Sikh Scripture’ dissertation, in 2001 CE.

All these Western Universities-groomed scholars and academicians owe, directly or indirectly, their Sikh Studies Doctorates to the ordained Christian Reverend and foreign Missionary-turned Sikh Studies radical scholar Dr. William Hewat McLeod’s academic tutelage. Harjot S. Oberoi got his Ph. D. from the Australian National University had Dr. McLeod as his associate supervisor.Pashaura Singh and Louis E. Fenech were students of W. H. McLeod when he was appointed as a visiting Commonwealth Scholar, University of Toronto in early 1990s. Doris Jakobsh was a student of Harjot Singh Oberoi, when he was Punjabi Language and Sikh Studies chair at UBC, Vancouver, Canada.
Dr. Mann’s graduation from Baring Union Christian College in Batala, Punjab, India, in the year 1965 CE is noteworthy, because that is when Dr. W. H. McLeod, who got his Ph. D. in Sikh Studies for a joke from School of Oriental and African Studies (SOAS), University of London, UK, joined the teaching staff there. [See Dr. McLeod’s ‘Discovering the Sikhs, Autobiography of a Historian’, p.39
His affiliation with the above academic clique is evident from his published thesis ‘The Making of Sikh Scripture’, a stereotypical dissertation, constructed, partly, on data derived from the unauthentic quasi-Sikh literature and grapevine traditions, that are mostly incompatible with the Sikhism’s authentic scriptural anthology, history, pragmatic religiosity and egalitarian ideology, packs cynicism and skepticism; and abets untenable contentions and adverse controversies besetting Sikhism. Early on in his dissertation ‘The Making of Sikh Scripture’, Gurinder Singh Mann quotes and controverts Dr. W. H. McLeod’s view.

W. H. McLeod has systematically presented the view that Guru Nanak was a participant in the medieval sant tradition, whose constituency of holy people believed in one nonincarnated God and preached a religion of interiority through meditation on the divine name. In this beatific vision all external forms of religious life including institutional authority, scriptural texts, communal centers, and so on were emphatically rejected. Simply put, the belief system to which Guru Nanak belonged does not jibe with the founding of an organized community. [W. H. McLeod, ‘The Evolution of Sikh Community’, p. 8] The Making of Sikh Scripture, [henceforth T.M.O.S.S.], p. 6
It is hard to accept the idea that Guru Nanak first rejected the institution of religious authority, only to reverse his stance and ensconce himself as the chief authority figure at Kartarpur. Nor is there any substance to the argument that Guru Nanak did not enjoy any power within the community during this period. His careful attempt to maintain the office of the guru in appointing his successor at the time of his death is evidence of the seriousness with which he took the institutional authority associated with the office. T.M.O.S.S., p. 8
Obviously, Dr. Gurinder Singh Mann is unaware that Sikhism is a lay religion, i.e. there is no conventional, institutionalized hierarchy of dogmatic ecclesiastics. However, there is an honorific position for the savant Sikh preachers. Guru Nanak designated local preachers during his four protracted odysseys and Guru Amar Das appointed resident Sikh apostles, called Masunds, whose functions were to preach Sikhism and liaison between the congregation and the Guru. Guru Gobind Singh discontinued the practice when the Masunds turned authoritarian ecclesiastics and corrupt.

ADVERSE CONTROVERSIES, CONTENTIONS; RHETORIC
MANUSCRIPTS; ANTECEDENTS; ORIGINS, BRANCHES, COPIES
In the second section I turn to the Adi Granth itself. Here I reconstruct its production in a way that radically revises the current understanding of the surrounding time and circumstances, as well as the relationship between its contents and those of its antecedents, such as the Kartarpur Pothi and other seventeenth-century manuscripts. T.M.O.S.S., p.69

BHAI BANNO BIR/KANPUR POTHI
Writing in 1770s Sarupdas Bhalla was the first author to report the variations between the text of the Kartarpur Pothi and the manuscript prepared by Bhai Banno. Bhalla narrates that soon after the inscription of the Kartarpur Pothi, Bhai Banno obtained Guru Arjan’s permission to take it to his village with the intent to prepare a copy for himself. Guru Arjan, Arjan however, sent for the Pothi, and it had to be returned quickly. Somehow Bhai Banno managed to have a copy made, but because of its hasty compilation organizational discrepancies crept into the text. The newly compiled manuscript, along with the original, was presented to Guru Arjan, who gladly confirmed its authenticity by putting his attestation on the manuscript. Bhalla calls it the Khara recension (Khare ki misal), naming after Bhai Banno’s village Khara Mangat and distinguishing it from the Kartarpur Pothi (Bhai Gurdas ki missal). Since the manuscript in is now at Kanpur, we called it the Kanpur Pothi in chapter2. Ibid, p.69-70

Bhalla’s discernment of differences between the two early manuscripts was endorsed by later writers, but their description of circumstances of the origin of the Kanpur Pothi (as well as the nature of its differences from Kartarpur Pothi) underwent important changes. According to the Sri Gurbilas Patshahi 6 and Sri Gurpratap Suraj Guru Arjan asked Bhai Banno to take the Kartarpur Pothi to Lahore for binding. During this trip to Lahore, Bhai Banno arranged to have a copy made without the prior permission of the guru. There were differences in contents between the original and the copy, and these had resulted from Bhai Banno’s deliberate effort to introduce into the sacred corpus some apocryphal hymns.

Sahib Singh dismissed earlier accounts of the compilation of the Kartarpur Pothi as fanciful and offered a new hypothesis: the Kartarpur Pothi and the Kanpur Pothi were initially identical, but in the decades after the death of Tegh Bahadur spurious compositions were inserted into the seventeenth-century manuscripts. Ibid, p.71

Building on the work of Sahib Singh, Pashaura Singh went a step further. He viewed the rise of both the Kanpur and the Lahore families of manuscripts as part of conspiracy that included not only the dissenting groups within the early Sikh community but also the Mughal administration at Lahore. Pashaura Singh is fully convinced that all variations in the early manuscripts were “interpolations” that resulted from conscious “tampering” with the original text carried out to confuse the message of the Sikh gurus. Ibid, p.71
Rejecting the traditional description of the seventeenth–century manuscripts, Piar Singh argued for the presence of seven primary branches, some of them with further internal subdivisions. Ibid, p.71

The existing understanding of the history of Sikh scripture is constructed around the belief that seventeenth-century manuscripts fell into three groups: the exact copies of the Kartarpur Pothi, representing the authoritative line, and two branches following the Kanpur and Lahore Pothi. The first striking aspect of the data available in the manuscripts mentioned below is that they fall not into three but two broad groups: manuscripts 3, 4, 5, 7, 8, 9, 19, 20, 22, and 24 follow what is known in Sikh tradition as the Lahore branch, and manuscripts 1, 2, 6, 10, 11, 12, 13, 15, 16, 17, 18, 25, 26, and 27 represent the Khara Mangat branch. (Manuscripts numbered 14 and 21 do not fit into these two groups and need special attention). Ibid, p.71

The traditional belief that the Kartarpur Pothi as it stands today produced a branch of manuscripts which culminated in the text of Adi Granth confronts the unavailability of even a single manuscript that can be considered its exact copy. This inconvenient fact has evoked interesting responses. For instance, Sahib Singh argues that soon after the Kartarpur Pothi was compiled, it was put up for public display at the Darbar Sahib, Amritsar and so could not be made available for copying. Ibid, p.71-2

The existing discussion on this issue centers on two interrelated assumptions: that the text of the Kartarpur Pothi culminated in the Adi Granth with the addition of the hymns of Guru Tegh Bahadur; and that the Kanpur Pothi, containing a set of apocryphal compositions, gave rise to a distinct branch of seventeenth-century manuscripts. Both these assumptions, in my view, are erroneous. Ibid, 73-4
There are two views regarding the relationship between the Amritsar Pothi and the Kartarpur Pothi in existing literature. As referred to before, Charan Singh traces the origin of this branch to the Kartarpur Pothi. Piar Singh rejects this relationship and views line as an independent attempt at compile of the Sikh text. Neither of them has developed their respective arguments in any detail. Ibid, p.75
Finally, an entry recorded in the Amritsar Pothi (folio 591) offers critical evidence to support my argument. This has two parts: the first contains the death dates of the first four gurus and the second goes as follows:

In the presence of the Guru Arjan, the manuscript was compiled. It was inscribed by Bhai Bura Sandhu in the presence of the fifth Guru. Bhai Milkha of Peshawar commissioned its inscription. He who will come to the presence of the manuscript will see the body of Guru Nanak. Forgive [my] flaws and omissions. God! The true guru! [The manuscript] is completed in Samat 1662 (1605 C.E.) Ibid, p.78
G. B. Singh accepted 1605 as the date of preparation of the Amritsar Pothi and named it after Bura Sandhu its supposed scribe. Piar Singh continues to associate the manuscript with Bura Sandhu but argues that the entry is false and was inserted later to increase the significance of the Amritsar Pothi by tracing its origin to the time of Guru Arjan.

I argue that this entry does not record the date of preparation of the Amritsar Pothi as G. B. Singh claims, neither is it a deliberate attempt to falsify its date of compilation as Piar Singh believes, but rather represents a typical instance in which the scribe of the Amritsar Pothi reproduced the colophon recorded in the source from which he copied (a manuscript prepared in 1605 by Bura Sandhu). If this line of reasoning is correct, the Amritsar Pothi becomes a copy of the Kartarpur Pothi compiled in 1605. Ibid, p.78

The Kanpur Pothi, the earliest extant manuscript of this branch, is dated 1642 but contains no information about its place of compilation. The Sikh sources and family traditions of the manuscript’s custodians attribute its compilation to Bhai Banno.

There are serious problems with the traditional explanation of manuscript’s origin. The date of 1642 does not correspond to the time of Guru Arjan. Bhai Banno’s name does not appear in the list of the important Sikhs of the period in the writings of Bhai Gurdas, nor is the name of Khara Mangat included in the list of the seats of regional centers of the community in the sixteenth century. Ibid, p.79
A note in the Patna Pothi (1692) confirms that the importance of the Kartarpur Pothi as the original document was fully recognized in the community, and a manuscript that was copied from it or was collated and corrected with it enjoy special status. Chaupa Singh, the first author to refer to the compilation of the Adi Granth, reports that Guru Gobind Singh sought to borrow the Kartarpur Pothi from Dhirmal’s family in 1678 but did not succeed. …. Kesar Singh Chibber, writing a few decades later, contends that after this denial of access to the Kartarpur Pothi, the guru used another manuscript at Anandpur to create Adi Granth. Ibid, p.82-3

The view that has dominated Sikh thinking since the seventeenth century, however, places the event at Damdama, Bhatinda, in 1705 – 1706. Giani Gian Singh expanded this tradition to claim that Guru Gobind Singh, unable to access the Kartarpur Pothi, and seemingly with no other written document around, dictated the complete text of the Adi Granth from memory to Bhai Mani Singh, who served as the amanuensis. Ibid, p.83

G. B. Singh located a manuscript extant at Dhaka prepared in 1675 (Samat 1732, miti agahan vadi), which contained all of Guru Tegh Bahadur’s hymns recoded in their appropriate rag sections. Ibid, p.83
MS 1192 inscribed in 1674 also contains the complete corpus of Guru Tegh Bahadur’s hymns. On its opening folio, the invocation is followed by a note that reads, “This attestation was obtained by presenting [the manuscript to the ninth master, in the presence of the whole congregation, on Samat 1731, the full moon day of Jeth”
Piar Singh argues that the dates, the invocation, and the note recoded underneath in MS 1192 are all fake. Ibid, p.84

CYNICAL, SKEPTICAL ASPERSIONS, INSINUATIONS, INNUENDOS
The Sikhs issued open invitation to both the Hindu and Muslim religious elite to avail themselves of the shelter offered by the guru if they wanted liberation. The words of Guru Amardas to the Brahmins were clear: “Your faith in God can work only if you listen to the advice of guru.” (Brahamu Bindihe te Brahamana je chalahe satgur bhae. M3, AG 849-850). Since the guru lived under Islamic rule, his invitation to Sufis to join the Sikh fold and submit to his leadership was strikingly bold: “O Shekh! Leave violence and with the fear of God control the inner confusion. Many have attained liberation by fear of the guru.” (Sekha andarahu joru chhadi tu bhau kari jhali gavae. Gur kai bhai kete nistare bhai vich nirbhau pae. M3, AG, 551). He further stated: “O Shekh Bring your mind to focus on the One. Discard your futile pursuit and realize the word of the guru. If you follow the guru,…you will gain respect in the divine court.” (Sekha chauchakia chauvaia ehu manu ikatu ghari ani. Ehar tehar chhadi tu gur ka sabadu pahchanu. Satgur agai dhai pau,…ta dargah pavahe manu. (M3, AG, 646). Ibid, p.13
According to Guru Arjan, God himself had created a firm foundation of the Sikh community on which it was now thriving (Abichal niv dhari Gur Nanak nit nit charai savai, M5, AG, 500-501). Ibid, p.14
The bath in the holy pool, according to Guru Arjan, washed off previously committed sins (Ramdas sarovar nate. Sabhi utre pap kamate, M5, AG, 625) Ibid, p.14
The above passages expose Dr. Mann’s cynical mindset. Gurbani verse, from Guru Arjan’s hymn, that he references and distorts to insinuate that ‘according to Guru Arjan, bath in holy pool washed off previously committed sins’, metaphorically means, ‘those who recite God’s Name [praise], in the congregation of devotees of Ram [all-pervading God], cleanse themselves of past sinful mentality.
The illegible transliteration and misinterpretation of the select Gurbani verses, [translate in isolation], exhibit his inept or dubious scholarship. The Gurmukhi diacritics aunkurd and Siari in the Gurmukhi words accord a distinct meaning or grammatical function to a word. For instance, words Bgq, Bgqu and Bgiq may have different meaning, but all are pronounced Bhagat and transliterated as such.
His innuendo that the Sikh Gurus professed that God himself laid Sikhism’s firm foundation, and that they exhorted Hindu and Muslim clergy to seek Sikh Guru’s shelter to redeem themselves, evinces his askance view of Gurbani. There is no explicit or implicit reference to the Sikh Guru. ‘Guru’ is Sanskrit word. Literally, Gu means darkness, ignorance and Ru means enlightener. Unbeknown to Dr. Mann, Sikh scripture’s co-authors, Gurus and Hindu and Muslim bhagats, addressed God too as Guru or Satguru. Its usage is not exclusive to Sikh vocabulary. It has been in use since primeval times as a revered appellation for the spiritual guide in all the Eastern religions, Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, and Sufism, et al.
Jo Gur dussay waat, marida joliay. Sheikh Farid [1173-1266 CE], AG, p.488,
Satgur béri (bérdi) furi (furdi) khaloté, main kéon läee a déri. 15, Bullay Shah
MS 1245: Pashaura Singh and Piar Singh were the first scholars to focus on the importance of this undated manuscript in the history of Sikh scripture. The manuscript was acquired by the Guru Nanak Dev University in March 1987 from the Chawla brothers, art and manuscript dealers in Amritsar. … A note appended to the manuscript by the dealers at the time of its sale provides no details of its earlier ownership, and the Chawlas have refused to reveal any information about manuscript’s location prior to its purchase by the university. Ibid, p.52

According to Balwant Singh Dhillon, the making of MS 1245 resulted from an independent effort but with a well-defined objective of creating “a new seat of Gurudom.” For him, MS 1245 represents a parallel scriptural text developed by descendants of Prithi Chand. He ties his argument with tradition that Miharban prepared and sent volumes of sacred writings to distant Sikh congregations. By presenting evidence which, he claims, suggests affinity between MS 1245 and the literature produced by this family, he argues that MS 1245 belongs to them as well. Ibid, p.57-8

DUBIOUS HYPOTHESIS
I suggest a different hypothesis to explain the origin of MS 1245. As mentioned earlier, the hymns of the Bhagats are not included in this manuscript. The crucial significance of MS 1245 lies not in its origin as an independent effort nor in its serving as a draft for the Kartarpur Pothi, but rather in its manifesting a composition of Sikh scripture different from the type represented in the Goindval Pothis and the Kartarpur Pothi. MS 1245 seems to have been compiled at a time when the earlier conception of Sikh scripture was being reconsidered. Ibid, p.58
It is true that Guru Arjan held the Bhagats in high esteem and portrayed them in his hymns as a paradigm of successful devotion. Yet the absence of the hymns of non-Sikhs from MS 1245 may suggest that at one time, around 1600, the guru considered dropping them altogether, or at least separating them from the compositions of the Sikhs and appending them as a distinct unit toward the end of the scriptural text. Emerging from this mode of thinking, MS 1245 seems to draw a line between the Sikh community-the gurus and their court poets who were part of the Sikh fold-and the others, Hindus and Muslims. Ibid, p.59

INSINUATIONS, INNUENDOS
BHAGAT BANI: Inclusion into the Sikh Scripture
Purpose, Selection, Corrections, Status
In this context, the presence of bhagat bani in the Sikh text indicates humble submission on part of the Bhagats-both Hindu and Muslim-to the superiority of the nascent Sikh tradition. According to Sikh view, the Bhagats came to Guru Arjan seeking to place their compositions in the sacred Sikh text, and the guru in his grace accepted the hymns of those deserving honor of becoming part of it. Ibid, p.109

In my view, the criterion for ascertaining the identity of those brought the divine message to humanity, however, was restrictive. For Guru Amardas, these had to be people who shared the monotheistic vision and an understanding of human life with its social and ethical obligations. Because the Sikh revelation is authentic, only hymns conforming to the Sikh belief in unity of God could be accepted as embodying the truth. Ibid, p.110

The fact that the scripture of an eminent Sikh, Bhai Gurdas, Guru Granth’s Amanuensis [scribe] was not incorporated in the Guru Granth, belies Gurinder Mann’s insinuation that the Gurus applied discriminatory benchmark in selection of scriptures to be included in the Guru Granth.
Having accomplished this task of selecting hymns, the gurus asserted further the supremacy of the content of Sikh revelation. Whenever the hymns of the Bhagats seemed to convey a message even slightly different from Sikh thinking, attempts were made to correct them. We have referred to Guru Amardas’s response to Farid’s pessimistic ideas about imminence of death-his assertion of a more positive outlook on life. Ibid, p.112

The insinuations, innuendos, misconstrued and misinterpreted Gurbani verses in the preceding passages portray the Sikh Gurus and Bhai Gurdas as condescending supremacists. Translated and interpreted objectively, the quoted Gurbani verses and Var of Bhai Gurdas do not support his aspersions.

The Sikh scriptural Anthology, a paragon of spiritual awareness and empirical Realism, exhorts mankind to cultivate rapport with the ultimate reality to obviate fear of mortality and dwell in the ensuing eternal spiritual realm. And the Gurus did not criticize the Bhagats, nor did they emend their scriptures, but expounded some of their couplets that could be naively misconstrued or mischievously misinterpreted. Yet some do it anyway.

There is no doubt that the hymns of the Bhagats selected for the Sikh text were thought to communicate a divine message, but the explanation of their relation to the hymns of the Sikh gurus began with Guru Amardas himself. He perceived the gurbani (he seems to have been thinking of Guru Nanak as a paradigm for the guru) as the medium of God’s word (Satgur bani sabadu sunae, M3, AG, 1177), its echo, he said, is present in all four corners of the word (Gurbani chahu kundi sunai sachai nami sumaida, M3, AG, 1065, and gurbani varti jag antari isu bani te harinamu paida, M3, AG, 1066). Ibid, p.117

Such statements suggest that Guru Amardas considered the hymns of the gurus to have a unique significance, and one far greater than the hymns of the bhagat, which had to be carefully selected before being inducted into the Sikh text. The implied ranking is rooted in Guru Amardas’s distinction between guru and Bhagat:
Bhagatu Bhagatu Kahai sabhu koi.
Bin satgur seve bhagati na pave pure bhagi milai prabhu soi, (M3, AG, 1131)
Everyone may call himself a Bhagat.
Without serving the true guru saintliness cannot be attained; it is with good luck that we reach God [and attain this stage] Ibid, p.117
The fundamental distinction between guru and Bhagat defined the basic structure of the Goindval Pothis, a structure later adhered to in the Kartarpur Pothi and the Adi Granth. The hymns of Guru Nanak result directly from the original revelation and are taken to constitute the pinnacle of sacred Sikh literature; the next stage belongs to hymns of created by the Sikh Gurus who carried the light of Guru Nanak; at the third stage came the hymns by the Sikhs who were initiated into sainthood by the gurus themselves; and the hymns of Bhagats, who had no connection with the gurus, are at the lower end of this hierarchy of sanctity. Ibid, p.117-8

In the rag Sorathi, Guru Ramdas writes about the greatness of God, the liberating power of the guru, and human beings who are blessed with the divine grace. In the last group, he refers to the four categories of the holy people. (Bhagats, Saints, Sadhus, and Sikhs of the guru) and categorically states that the Sikhs are the most fortunate ones among them (Sabhdu vade bhag gursikha ke jo gurcharni sikh paratai, M4, AG, 649. He has no doubt that the Sikhs belong to a higher level of blessedness than the one enjoyed by the Bhagats. Ibid, p.118

Bhai Gurdas is not modest in explicating the hierarchical relationship between the Bhagats and the Sikhs (Gurmukhs/Gursikhs”). He writes about the Bhagats (Var 10), the early prominent Sikhs (Var 11), and the code of conduct centered on their devotion to the guru (Var 12). He believes that the Sikhs attained the same bliss received by Beni, Dhanna, Kabir, Namdev, Ravidas, and Sain. In other words, only the most prominent saints of the other traditions were on an equal level with the Sikhs of the guru. Ibid, p.118

His absurd assertion, that the Gurus ranked the Bhagats inferior to Gurus, Saints, Sadhus and Sikhs, is symptomatic of deficient and/or devious scholarship. In Sikhism there are only three entities, God, Guru [Word] and Sikhs, who are not beatified, but venerated and revered as Bhagats, Saints or Sadhus according to their spirituality, devotion, piety, altruism and noble virtues. In the Sikh scriptural anthology, Guru Granth Sahib, there are numerous hymns by the Sikh Gurus, venerating the bhagats, including Guru Arjan’s hymn that explicitly mentions bhagats blessed with reverence and veneration. See GGS p.487

The Sikh Gurus adopted the, universally lauded, par excellence criteria and methodology in the monumental task of collection, selection, redaction, collation, and pagination of Sikh scriptural anthology, Guru Granth Sahib, that is popularly acclaimed and regarded to be personification of perpetual Guru of the Sikhs, ‘in its entirety’, as per Sikhism’s cardinal concept and doctrine, ‘Guru’s eternal Word, not his mortal body, is the Guru’. The comments of the celebrated non-Sikh scholars philosophers and leaders, quoted directly below, best describe the Sikhism’s universal theology and egalitarian social Ideology, as enshrined in the Guru Granth Sahib [Sikh Scripture]. The term ‘in its entirety’ is noteworthy as it signifies the inclusiveness of Bhagat Bani.

“At a time when the society and the nation was splintered in the name of caste, religion, language and region, Guru Arjan took up the challenging task of bringing the entire humanity in one fold by incorporating the Banis of Saints and Scholars from almost all classes of society to spread the message of Fatherhood of God and brotherhood of mankind.” Dr. Hameed Ansari, Vice President of India, Sikh Review, Feb. 2009

“But the Adi Granth is a catholic [universal] anthology. It also includes hymns written by earlier Indian seers in whom Nanak and his successors recognized kindred spirits; and some of these contributors to the Granth are Hindus, while others are Muslims. Their writings have found a place in the Adi Granth because the compilers of it held, and surely with good reason, that these seers were Sikhs in fact, though they lived and wrote before the Sikh religion took institutional form. They were Sikhs because they brought out and emphasized the universal spiritual truths contained in their respective religious traditions; and these truths belong to all ages and to all faiths.” Arnold Toynbee, Forward, UNESCO Publication ‘The Sacred Writings of The Sikhs’ p.10

“A remarkable feature of the Adi Granth is that it contains the writings of the religious teachers of Hinduism, Islam, etc. … The Sikh Gurus who compiled the Adi Granth had this noble quality of appreciation of whatever was valuable in other religious traditions. The saints belong to the whole world. They are universal men, who free our minds from bigotry and superstition, dogmas and rituals and emphasize the central simplicities of the inner values who correct the fanaticisms of their superstitious followers. [Late] Dr. S. Radhakrishnan, President of India, Ibid,pp.17-8

Conclusion
Why would Gurinder Singh Mann, or anyone else for that matter, choose to pursue inquisitorial study of Sikh anthology, stamped with its original coauthors, venerated and revered Sikh Gurus and Hindu and Muslim Saints’ signatures, compared to some other major religions’ scriptures that were written by the disciples long after their respective religions’ founder’s demise? Apparently, he chose to pursue Ph. D. degree to advance his literary profile and academic career, under the tutelage of academics whose proficiency in the Sikh theology, ideology and history we can only extrapolate. His published thesis, rife with radical contentions and adverse controversies gleaned from some disenchanted Sikhs and mythological chroniclers accounts, incompatible with Sikh scripture’s unique message, traditions and historical details, packs potential to detract the cause of Sikhism. Obviously he is aware of the accounts’ anomalies.
Given the centrality of scripture in the tradition, almost all the Sikh chroniclers refer to the compilation of the original text and its expansion into the Adi Granth. These authors constructed their accounts primarily around oral traditions, using them with varying degrees of ingenuity. T.M.O.S.S., pp.5-6

The nineteenth–century narrators, however, introduced additional dramatic details. In these accounts, Kabir is presented as the spokesperson for the Bhagats during their visit to the Sikh court. He respectfully introduces each of them to Guru Arjan and announces the precise purpose of their visit - to get their hymns recorded in the sacred Sikh text. …. These chroniclers also knew that many of the Bhagats whose hymns are recorded in Sikh scripture were dead by the time of Guru Arjan. Still, they easily circumvented the difficulty of announcing for this historical anomaly by describing the saints’ arrival in ethereal forms. Ibid, p.103
 

vsgrewal48895

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Dear Giani Ji,

Here is a copy from Encyclopedia of Sikhism, Page, 279 describing the history of Bhai Banno and his carrying the 2nd copy of Pothi Sahib to his house with bibliography from 4 sources, either encyclopedia is wrong or Sahib Singh.

BANNO BHAI (1558-1645)

BANNO, BHAI (1558-1645), a prominent Sikh contemporary of Guru Arjan and Guru Hargobind, was the son of Bhai Bishan Dev of village Mangat, also called Khara-Maligat, Khara being its older name, in Phalia. tahsil of Gujrat district (now in Pakistan). He was born on Saturday, Baisakh sudi 13, 1615 Bk/ 30 April 1558. Banno grew up with a deeply religious disposition. He turned a Sikh and rendered diligent service during the construction of Harimandar at Amritsar under Guru Arjan. On the completion of the compilation of (Guru) Granth Sahib in 1604, Guru Arjan deputed Bhai Banno to carry the holy volume to Lahore for binding. The later with the Guru's permission first carried it to his village and then brought it back to Lahore. During his journey to and from his village he prepared his own copy of the Holy Book. He got, both the copies bound and brought them to the Guru, who installed the original copy (Adi Bir) in the Harimandar and returned the other copy to Bhai Banno. This recension came to be known as Bhai Banno Vali Bir or Khare Vali Bir, because the Bhai had installed it in his own house at Khara-Maligat.

Bhai Banno continued to preach Sikh tenets in the north-western parts of the Punjab till his death in Magh 1701 Bk/January 1645.

BIBLIOGRAPHY

1. Bhalla, Sarup Das, Mahima Prakash. Patiala, 1971

2. Bal, Rajinder Singh, Bhai Banno Darpan. Jalandhar, 1989

3. Bhai Banno Sahib. Kanpur, n. d.

4. Gurbilas Chhevlri Patshahi. Patiala, 1970


Cordially,

Virinder

Forum members: This post is very similar and almost a duplicate of former post number 23 in this thread. I respectfully want to explain that I do not plan to delete this post because it is being used to address a different issue in context. This time we are looking at comments about Banno bir side by side. Thank you. aad0002
 
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pk70

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Dear Giani Ji,

Here is a copy from Encyclopedia of Sikhism, Page, 279 describing the history of Bhai Banno and his carrying the 2nd copy of Pothi Sahib to his house with bibliography from 4 sources, either encyclopedia is wrong or Sahib Singh.

BANNO BHAI (1558-1645)

BANNO, BHAI (1558-1645), a prominent Sikh contemporary of Guru Arjan and Guru Hargobind, was the son of Bhai Bishan Dev of village Mangat, also called Khara-Maligat, Khara being its older name, in Phalia. tahsil of Gujrat district (now in Pakistan). He was born on Saturday, Baisakh sudi 13, 1615 Bk/ 30 April 1558. Banno grew up with a deeply religious disposition. He turned a Sikh and rendered diligent service during the construction of Harimandar at Amritsar under Guru Arjan. On the completion of the compilation of (Guru) Granth Sahib in 1604, Guru Arjan deputed Bhai Banno to carry the holy volume to Lahore for binding. The later with the Guru's permission first carried it to his village and then brought it back to Lahore. During his journey to and from his village he prepared his own copy of the Holy Book. He got, both the copies bound and brought them to the Guru, who installed the original copy (Adi Bir) in the Harimandar and returned the other copy to Bhai Banno. This recension came to be known as Bhai Banno Vali Bir or Khare Vali Bir, because the Bhai had installed it in his own house at Khara-Maligat.

Bhai Banno continued to preach Sikh tenets in the north-western parts of the Punjab till his death in Magh 1701 Bk/January 1645.

BIBLIOGRAPHY

1. Bhalla, Sarup Das, Mahima Prakash. Patiala, 1971

2. Bal, Rajinder Singh, Bhai Banno Darpan. Jalandhar, 1989

3. Bhai Banno Sahib. Kanpur, n. d.

4. Gurbilas Chhevlri Patshahi. Patiala, 1970


Cordially,

Virinder


Respected VSGREWAL Ji
Kindly read Dr Sahib Singh's views on Bano, he proves logically it was not possible to do all what is claimed done by Bhai Bano in given time. He measures the time and distance and means of transportation prevailed for people like Bhai Bano in those times, it doesnt add up. Why only this essay you are quoting can be the final truth?
:)
 

vsgrewal48895

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Dear & Respected PK 70 Ji,

In that case Encyclopedia is wrong and one should complain to Dr. Harbans Singh of Punjabi University, Patiala to correct it, but then question arises how we can correct the bibliography. Encyclopedia is all over the web and it needs to be corrected.

Cordially,

Virinder
 

pk70

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Dear & Respected PK 70 Ji,

In that case Encyclopedia is wrong and one should complain to Dr. Harbans Singh of Punjabi University, Patiala to correct it, but then question arises how we can correct the bibliography. Encyclopedia is all over the web and it needs to be corrected.

Cordially,

Virinder


Respected VSGREWAL Ji

Yes, it should be corrected, isnt the all debate about it. I have given Guru Shabad condemning rituals, here is another one again
ਧਨਾਸਰੀ ਮਹਲਾ [/FONT]॥[/FONT] ਪੂਜਾ ਵਰਤ ਤਿਲਕ ਇਸਨਾਨਾ ਪੁੰਨ ਦਾਨ ਬਹੁ ਦੈਨ [/FONT]॥[/FONT] ਕਹੂੰ ਭੀਜੈ ਸੰਜਮ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਬੋਲਹਿ ਮੀਠੇ ਬੈਨ [/FONT]॥[/FONT]॥[/FONT]
Ḏẖanāsrī mėhlā 5.[/FONT] Pūjā varaṯ ṯilak isnānā punn ḏān baho ḏain.[/FONT] Kahū▫aʼn na bẖījai sanjam su▫āmī bolėh mīṯẖe bain. ||1||[/FONT]
Dhanasri 5th Guru.[/FONT] Worship, fasting, frontal mark, ablution, the bestowal of copious alms and charity,[/FONT] self-mortification and the utterance of sweet words, with none of these the Lord is pleased.[/FONT]

ਹੇਭਾਈ! ਲੋਕ ਦੇਵ-ਪੂਜਾ ਕਰਦੇ ਹਨ, [/FONT]ਵਰਤ ਰੱਖਦੇ ਹਨ, [/FONT]ਮੱਥੇ ਉਤੇ ਤਿਲਕ ਲਾਂਦੇ ਹਨ, [/FONT]ਤੀਰਥਾਂਉਤੇ ਇਸ਼ਨਾਨ ਕਰਦੇ ਹਨ, ([/FONT]ਗਰੀਬਾਂ ਨੂੰ) ਬੜੇ ਦਾਨ-ਪੁੰਨ ਕਰਦੇ ਹਨ, [/FONT]ਮਿੱਠੇ ਬੋਲ ਬੋਲਦੇਹਨ, [/FONT]ਪਰ ਅਜੇਹੀ ਕਿਸੇ ਭੀ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਨਾਲ ਮਾਲਕ-ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਖ਼ੁਸ਼ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੁੰਦਾ।[/FONT]।[/FONT]


ਪ੍ਰਭ ਜੀ ਕੋ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਤ ਮਨ ਚੈਨ [/FONT]॥[/FONT] ਬਹੁ ਪ੍ਰਕਾਰ ਖੋਜਹਿ ਸਭਿ ਤਾ ਕਉ ਬਿਖਮੁ ਜਾਈ ਲੈਨ ॥[/FONT]॥[/FONT] ਰਹਾਉ [/FONT]॥[/FONT]
Parabẖ jī ko nām japaṯ man cẖain.[/FONT] Baho parkār kẖojėh sabẖ ṯā ka▫o bikẖam na jā▫ī lain. ||1|| rahā▫o.[/FONT]
Repeating the revered Lord's Name, the soul obtains peace.[/FONT] All search for Him in various ways, but the search is difficult and He is found not. Pause.[/FONT]

ਹੇਭਾਈ! ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦਾ ਨਾਮ ਜਪਿਆਂ (ਹੀ) ਮਨ ਨੂੰ ਸ਼ਾਂਤੀ (ਪ੍ਰਾਪਤ ਹੁੰਦੀ ਹੈ)! ਸਾਰੇ ਲੋਕਕਈ ਤਰੀਕਿਆਂ ਨਾਲ ਉਸ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਨੂੰ ਲੱਭਦੇ ਹਨ, ([/FONT]ਪਰ ਸਿਮਰਨ ਤੋਂ ਬਿਨਾ ਉਸ ਨੂੰਲੱਭਣਾ) ਔਖਾ ਹੈ, [/FONT]ਨਹੀਂ ਲੱਭ ਸਕੀਦਾ।[/FONT]।[/FONT]ਰਹਉ।[/FONT]


ਜਾਪ ਤਾਪ ਭ੍ਰਮਨ ਬਸੁਧਾ ਕਰਿ ਉਰਧ ਤਾਪ ਲੈ ਗੈਨ [/FONT]॥[/FONT] ਇਹ ਬਿਧਿ ਨਹ ਪਤੀਆਨੋ ਠਾਕੁਰ ਜੋਗ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਕਰਿ ਜੈਨ [/FONT]॥[/FONT]॥[/FONT]
Jāp ṯāp bẖarman basuḏẖā kar uraḏẖ ṯāp lai gain.[/FONT] Ih biḏẖ nah paṯī▫āno ṯẖākur jog jugaṯ kar jain. ||2||[/FONT]
Recitation, penance, wandering over the earth, attachment to austerities with body reversed,[/FONT] and following the path of Jogis and Jains: by such means the Lord is pleased not.[/FONT]

ਹੇਭਾਈ! ਜਪ ਤਪ ਕਰ ਕੇ, [/FONT]ਸਾਰੀ ਧਰਤੀ ਉਤੇ ਚੱਕਰ ਲਾ ਕੇ, [/FONT]ਸਿਰ-ਭਾਰ ਤਪ ਕਰ ਕੇ, [/FONT]ਪ੍ਰਾਣ ਦਸਮਦੁਆਰ ਵਿਚ ਚਾੜ੍ਹ ਕੇ, [/FONT]ਜੋਗ-ਮਤ ਦੀਆਂ ਜੁਗਤੀਆਂ ਕਰ ਕੇ, [/FONT]ਜੈਨ-ਮਤ ਦੀਆਂ ਜੁਗਤੀਆਂ ਕਰਕੇ-ਇਹਨਾਂ ਤਰੀਕਿਆਂ ਨਾਲ ਭੀ ਮਾਲਕ-ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਨਹੀਂ ਪਤੀਜਦਾ।[/FONT]।[/FONT]


ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਨਾਮੁ ਨਿਰਮੋਲਕੁ ਹਰਿ ਜਸੁ ਤਿਨਿ ਪਾਇਓ ਜਿਸੁ ਕਿਰਪੈਨ [/FONT]॥[/FONT] ਸਾਧਸੰਗਿ ਰੰਗਿ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਭੇਟੇ ਨਾਨਕ ਸੁਖਿ ਜਨ ਰੈਨ [/FONT]॥[/FONT]॥[/FONT]੧੩॥[/FONT]
Amriṯ nām nirmolak har jas ṯin pā▫i▫o jis kirpain.[/FONT] Sāḏẖsang rang parabẖ bẖete Nānak sukẖ jan rain. ||3||13||[/FONT]
The ambrosial Name an the Lord's praise are invaluable and he alone obtains them, to whom the Lord shows mercy.[/FONT] Meeting the society of saints, slave Nanak is blessed with the Lord's love and his life night, passes in peace.[/FONT]

ਹੇਭਾਈ! ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦਾ ਨਾਮ ਆਤਮਕ ਜੀਵਨ ਦੇਣ ਵਾਲਾ ਹੈ, [/FONT]ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦੀ ਸਿਫ਼ਤਿ-ਸਾਲਾਹ ਇਕਐਸਾ ਪਦਾਰਥ ਹੈ ਜਿਸ ਦਾ ਕੋਈ ਮੁੱਲ ਨਹੀਂ ਪੈ ਸਕਦਾ-ਇਹ ਦਾਤਿ ਉਸ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਨੇ ਹਾਸਲ ਕੀਤੀਹੈ ਜਿਸ ਉੱਤੇ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦੀ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਹੋਈ ਹੈ। [/FONT]ਹੇ ਨਾਨਕ! (ਆਖ-ਹੇ ਭਾਈ!) ਗੁਰੂ ਦੀਸੰਗਤਿ ਦੀ ਰਾਹੀਂ ਪ੍ਰੇਮ-ਰੰਗ ਵਿਚ ਜੁੜ ਕੇ ਜਿਸ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਨੂੰ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਜੀ ਮਿਲੇ ਹਨ, [/FONT]ਉਸਮਨੁੱਖ ਦੀ ਜੀਵਨ-ਰਾਤ ਸੁਖ-ਆਨੰਦ ਵਿਚ ਬੀਤਦੀ ਹੈ।[/FONT]।[/FONT]੧੩। [/FONT]ਨੋਟ: ਇਥੋਂ ਤਕ ਧਨਾਸਰੀ ਰਾਗਵਿਚ '[/FONT]ਮਹਲਾ ੫' [/FONT]ਦੇ ੧੩ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਆ ਚੁਕੇ ਹਨ। [/FONT]ਇਸ ਤੋਂ ਅਗਲੇ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਦਾ ਜੋੜ-ਅੰਕ ੧੪ ਹੈ। [/FONT]ਇਸਦਾ ਭਾਵ ਇਹ ਹੈ ਕਿ ਅੰਕ ੧੩ ਤੋਂ ਅਗਾਂਹ ਨਵਾਂ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਸ਼ੁਰੂ ਹੋਇਆ ਹੈ। [/FONT]ਸਿਰਲੇਖ '[/FONT]ਧਨਾਸਰੀਮਹਲਾ ੫' [/FONT]ਨਾ ਲਿਖਣ ਨਾਲ ਭੀ ਕੋਈ ਭਲੇਖੇ ਵਾਲੀ ਗੱਲ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੈ।[/FONT]



Guru who has been preaching that, how come he can be ignored in his own house? Why people would listen to a Guru who preaches against rituals but in his own house these were common place/or exist.[/FONT]
Funny, isn't it if go by Bhai Bano theory.:)
[/FONT]
 

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