A Decision on the Razor's Edge

Scarlet Pimpernel · #55 (**permalink**) 19-Oct-2011, 04:43 AM

Quote:

I know sometimes I let my train of thoughts go wild. The thing is my mom never lets me keep my beard open. And I could never support it with proper reasons, specially when she would hit me with bread crumb beard scenario.

Veera ,I understand as I kept mine open always,but if you look her post is addressed to Critical Singh and by his own admission it is a harsh post. Since when were we harsh with our sisters?

Thank God the Panj Pyaare were name sakes of virtue, like Daya Singh and Dharam Singh, names like Sinner Singh or Critical Singh would not inspire anyone to practice anything but that which they obviously state .

mÚ 2 ]

Second Mehl:

mehlaa 2.

bDw ctI jo Bry nw guxu nw aupkwru ]

Paying a fine under pressure, does not bring either merit or goodness.

syqI KusI svwrIAY nwnk kwrju swru ]3]

That alone is a good deed, O Guru Nanak, which is done by one`s own free will. ||3||

Spades · #56 (**permalink**) 19-Oct-2011, 06:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mai Harinder Kaur

I grimaced when I read the statement in the article:

"Let's put religion aside and be real," said Sumita Batra, a Sikh who owns a chain of 16 hair removal studios across Southern California and Las Vegas. "Who … is attracted to a hairy-legged, mustached woman?"

I wonder at calling someone who publicly makes a living encouraging Sikhs to break a basic tenet of their religion a Sikh. I still consider monas to be Sikhs, but I sort of draw the line at what Sumita Batra is doing.

But she is correct in most cases. If you take a clear look at Sikh-Born Punjabis you see that clean shaven men and women are clearly preferred over people that keep the 5Ks. She's just the product of the system and what people prefer. The later of which is probably a mixture of what the global culture has taught us combined with what people innately find desirable.

Quote:

I am not one of those who believes that monas are not Sikhs. I cannot make that judgment. We are all at different stages of this journey and keeping kes is not meaningful to some, some are forced to cut/ shave by family pressure and some simply don't have the courage to keep kes. Each of us is where we are. Still, I think those who choose to follow external definitions of beauty are missing a lot of the meaning and spirituality of being a Sikh. At the risk of being patronising, I feel a bit sorry for them; they are missing a beautiful, vital part of their heritage.

I am going to be a bit blunt on this point as well...

Screw my heritage.

Just because people did something in the past from a country that my immediate predecessors came from doesn't mean that I should feel obligated to follow it. Sentiments like the one in red usually make me want to get my head shaven skinhead style. Then again I've been flirting with that idea for a while.

harry haller · #57 (**permalink**) 19-Oct-2011, 14:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spades

But she is correct in most cases. If you take a clear look at Sikh-Born Punjabis you see that clean shaven men and women are clearly preferred over people that keep the 5Ks. She's just the product of the system and what people prefer. The later of which is probably a mixture of what the global culture has taught us combined with what people innately find desirable.

I am going to be a bit blunt on this point as well...

Screw my heritage.

Just because people did something in the past from a country that my immediate predecessors came from doesn't mean that I should feel obligated to follow it. Sentiments like the one in red usually make me want to get my head shaven skinhead style. Then again I've been flirting with that idea for a while.

You seem determined to ruffle a few feathers today my angry little friend, I will allow Maiji to reply to your post, as she is more of a warrior saint than I will ever be, and more than you could even dream to be.

You seem to be trapped in a mental thought cycle. You are free to get your head shaven skinhead style if you so wish, why should that affect any of us?, If your intending to do it for shock value, I am afraid I have beaten you to it, I have so little hair now, that it is the only style that makes me look half civilised and not like some jungli. The hair is oneness with nature and with the Creator, to have the hair is to be whole, I only remarked to my wife this morning that one day, when we understand better, we will see the cutting of our hair as the cutting of flesh, it will hurt us, it will be like writing a letter and realising our thumb is missing, so from one skinhead to another potential one, what is the difference between us, well to me, my heritage is all I have, the blood of warriors and poets flows in my veins, as it does my wife, being celtic, we both have an awareness of where we came from, its all we have, and its all we have to offer to others both when we die, and while we are alive.

The key difference is that I am acutely aware of what I could feel about my hair, and look forward to the day when I see it as the gift it is, I have an inkling already, an understanding, but it is not something that can be forced, I cannot force myself to want to keep my hair, I just need more understanding.

You are angry, and you want to hurt, and you want to hurt by hurting yourself, you are behaving like a child, which is not the insult it may appear to be, we all behave like children until we have understood the Gurus message, it turns babies like you and me, into MEN and WOMEN, like dear Mai ji, Adminji, Ambersariaji, Gyaniji, these are MEN and WOMEN, the real deal, the real article.

In your last post you behaved like a small child, you will either grow up a bit and understand what made me come to this conclusion, or you will behave like a smaller child still and maybe threaten to soil your pants and scream, your call my friend

Scarlet Pimpernel · #58 (**permalink**) 19-Oct-2011, 14:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harry Haller

You seem determined to ruffle a few feathers today my angry little friend, I will allow Maiji to reply to your post, as she is more of a warrior saint than I will ever be, and more than you could even dream to be.

Veer ji we never know who will become a warrior saint in the future,I understand your reasoning for rebuttle but trust me when I say Mai ji is more than capable of defence and no shrinking violet,also I realise that you are a musketeer and it's in your code to defend others.

It was not specific to Mai ji,Spades ji was just pointing out a common train of thought that some with kesh sometimes have a feeling of being the approved ,this is something their unfortunate poorer cousins ,the monai don't really carry with them.

Some monai may carry some guilt of not having kesh or feel inferior but both of these mindsets are not beneficial.Spades ji is much less evil than he thinks he is, just as most of us are not as good as we think we are,where he is good is that there is room there for improvement,the state of thinking that your good or approved leaves little room for refinement or improvement .

A Sikh with kesh is doing what he believes to be right and that is reward in itself no need to feel sorry for anyone or feel better,when we look before we cross a road it is right to do so,no point feeling that you are better solely by doing what you think is right.

Now me having experienced the world of extra portion prashaad and small portion I feel it is better just to be and not think to be.

ravneet_sb · #59 (**permalink**) 19-Oct-2011, 15:25 PM

SAT SRI AKAAL,
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-youth/37213-a-decision-on-the-razors-edge.html

If all are brothers and sisters.

In "REAL" relations negatives are defended or secreted

But when relation is with outside boundary then reality is different.

Make relation as "REAL" one's

One progress if one shed's "DUALITY"
"Duality" has no end
One cannot reach anywhere if one puts a step forward and backward progress is slow

No one can get other's situation.
Man one cannot realize pain of pregnancy.
But yes one can understand other.

So some actions are painful and to others it can be bliss

It is important to realise "GURU's BANI"

and

follow universal thought process.

Shed Duality, Shed Ego stay

If we give bad emotion, we get bad emotion
If we give fear, we get.
That's why politicians, police needs guns. They have inside feer.

What we sow that we reap.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=37213

Say and stay with one's self.
No discussion.

Discuss "GURU's MAT"

Most of feelings are situational.
Situation cause feelings and feelings cause action
It' s cyclic. One causes other.

Shed Duality.
To uplift thought, and maintain META PHYSICAL balance,

the process is

Do what you think or
What "one" can do think that only.

Close redundant thoughts/discussions/actions.
Stay as ONE and stay in bliss

Till outer has no inner influence.
Someone shall break and let one come out of it.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ka Fateh

Spades · #60 (**permalink**) 20-Oct-2011, 05:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by harry haller

You seem determined to ruffle a few feathers today my angry little friend, I will allow Maiji to reply to your post, as she is more of a warrior saint than I will ever be, and more than you could even dream to be.

You will allow Mai to respond? When did she need your permission to reply to a post?

Also you do realize that I no longer associate myself with Sikhism? Therefore I have no desire to become a "warrior saint".

Quote:

You seem to be trapped in a mental thought cycle. You are free to get your head shaven skinhead style if you so wish, why should that affect any of us?, If your intending to do it for shock value, I am afraid I have beaten you to it, I have so little hair now, that it is the only style that makes me look half civilised and not like some jungli.

Why do I want to shave my head bald? It's just something I'm curious to try.

Quote:

The hair is oneness with nature and with the Creator, to have the hair is to be whole, I only remarked to my wife this morning that one day, when we understand better, we will see the cutting of our hair as the cutting of flesh, it will hurt us, it will be like writing a letter and realising our thumb is missing, so from one skinhead to another potential one, what is the difference between us, well to me, my heritage is all I have, the blood of warriors and poets flows in my veins, as it does my wife, being celtic, we both have an awareness of where we came from, its all we have, and its all we have to offer to others both when we die, and while we are alive.

Where do I even start with this one?

1) I'm not a Sikh so I don't really hold a belief that hair is something that unites me with a "Creator".

2) You may also have the blood of thieves, hookers, and murderers flowing through your veins as well. You don't know what your distant ancestors did as a profession 400-500 years ago.

3) You are seriously selling yourself short if you think that the greatest thing to be proud is the fact that you just happened to be born to a Punjabi-Sikh family. If it is then that is kind of sad bro.

Quote:

You are angry, and you want to hurt, and you want to hurt by hurting yourself, you are behaving like a child, which is not the insult it may appear to be, we all behave like children until we have understood the Gurus message, it turns babies like you and me, into MEN and WOMEN, like dear Mai ji, Adminji, Ambersariaji, Gyaniji, these are MEN and WOMEN, the real deal, the real article.

The arrogance is over 9000 here. So according to you only Amritdhari Sikhs can be seen as ADULTS? Then you try to diagnose me from your high horse?

The projection is also something to behold. You are the one that is clearly angry and throwing a temper tantrum in the form of text.

Quote:

In your last post you behaved like a small child, you will either grow up a bit and understand what made me come to this conclusion, or you will behave like a smaller child still and maybe threaten to soil your pants and scream, your call my friend

Projection can be a B.

----------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scarlet Pimpernel

Some monai may carry some guilt of not having kesh or feel inferior but both of these mindsets are not beneficial.Spades ji is much less evil than he thinks he is, just as most of us are not as good as we think we are,where he is good is that there is room there for improvement,the state of thinking that your good or approved leaves little room for refinement or improvement .

I don't think I'm evil. That's just something I put in for a joke along with "Sith" & "C.R.E.A.M." I also don't think I'm a pirate just because I have the Jolly Roger as my flag.

spnadmin · #61 (**permalink**) 20-Oct-2011, 08:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scarlet Pimpernel

mÚ 2 ]

Second Mehl:

mehlaa 2.

bDw ctI jo Bry nw guxu nw aupkwru ]

Paying a fine under pressure, does not bring either merit or goodness.

syqI KusI svwrIAY nwnk kwrju swru ]3]

That alone is a good deed, O Guru Nanak, which is done by one`s own free will. ||3||

S Pimpernel ji

imho You have found a tuk that is correctly applied in context for this discussion. Great food for thought! I would ask you to post a complete shabad, with Ang number, Gurmukhi and English, so that I do not have to do it for you.

A suggestion. Please use the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji at http://srigranth.org when you copy and paste for two reasons. A clear Gurmukhi font supported by SPN server software is not at this time possible from many of the other sites and pdf files available online. Unicode font is desirable to reproduce a full shabad.

Do not use red font in your comments. This is admin's color. Thanks.

spnadmin · #62 (**permalink**) 20-Oct-2011, 08:09 AM

Thoughts on the thread. My own impression is that Spades ji is the perfect "devil's advocate." He is raising ALL the counter-arguments that are typical for this discussion, and has done so in a lucid way. That shakes the forum up, and keeps conversation from being the sort of discussion where mutual consent keeps things a dull as a board. The only danger, and we are not there yet, is that comments may become personal and issues will be ignored. There are some key ideas being presented by Harry ji and S Pimpernel ji and Mai ji and these are unique, relevant, interesting, and thought-provoking. We do not have to be in agreement to have a good discussion. By now it should be clear where I personally stand. But... what I like about this thread so far: all the ideas that surround the question of kesh are being presented in one place. More power to you.

Scarlet Pimpernel · #63 (**permalink**) 20-Oct-2011, 14:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spnadmin

imho You have found a tuk that is correctly applied in context for this discussion. Great food for thought! I would ask you to post a complete shabad, with Ang number, Gurmukhi and English,

Admin ji Sorry about the colour it was copy and paste-haste.It's not really a tuk, it's a shorter Shabad, our Second Guru's writings are shorter and I did not find it, it found me.Ang 787

Quote:

Thoughts on the thread. My own impression is that Spades ji is the perfect "devil's advocate." He is raising ALL the counter-arguments that are typical for this discussion, and has done so in a lucid way.

I agree we need counter-arguements for dialectic reasoning to work properly,my view is that Kesh is like the icing on the cake it makes it stand out and is good special occasions,but the special ingredient in a Sikh is ofcourse Gurbani,without the cake who wants icing,if you say a Sikh is made up of combining the two , then you kind of infer that the Guru's word alone cannot complete one .That an individual could spend his life cultivating the core of a Sikh by holding his or her mind with Guru's word,but then still not be called a Sikh for their physical appearance is a sad state of affairs for the Sikh world.