An Exploration of Femininity and Sikh Women

Ishna · #1 (**permalink**) 19-Apr-2011, 10:40 AM

I would like to explore this sangat's views, opinions, experiences and conceptions when it comes to femininity and Sikh women.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/general-discussion/35185-an-exploration-of-femininity-sikh-women.html

I often hear other Sikh women struggling with reconciling their femininity with what can be seen by some as a hyper-masculine religion (Sikhism).
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=35185

How do Sikh women here embrace their femininity? What is your conception of femininity? What does femininity look like to you? What is the value of femininity?

It is easier to see how Sikhism complements masculinity (hairy, weilding weapons, covering your hair with a dastaar, courage, battle, etc), but what are the expressions of femininity in Sikhism?

Of course there are internal qualities of femininity, like being caring, but how do you (if you're a woman) express your femininity?

I hear some of my fellow Sikh sisters-in-faith (and myself occasionally) say that Islam is sometimes a tempting religion because of how beautiful the hijab is, they can wear make-up and be "feminine", and sometimes my sisters feel they are expected to be like men instead.

Does this de-value women?

Please join me in exploring these ideas without judgement and without the aim of proving right or wrong.

I would also request if admins could please keep this thread on track as it is NOT designed to argue the validity of facial or body hair in Sikhi. If you want to discuss that, please go here: http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-s...owth-hair.html

Discussion of body hair in exploration of the topic of femininity and Sikh women is fine but should not be argued by members in this thread, please.

Many thanks in advance
Ishna

spnadmin · #2 (**permalink**) 19-Apr-2011, 12:03 PM

ishna ji

We do our best to keep threads on track. However hair/kesh is part of Sikh identity. I am not sure how one keeps a discussion of Sikh identity separate from a discussion of Sikh femininity.

Ishna · #3 (**permalink**) 19-Apr-2011, 12:32 PM

Dear Spnadmin ji, I appreciate the hard work the admins put in to keeping all threads on track.

I'm not asking to keep kesh and Sikh identity separate but cautioning against arguing about it (which happens on and on and on and hijacks threads) which I tried to make clear with these two sentances and highlighting the 'arguing' part:

I would also request if admins could please keep this thread on track as it is NOT designed to argue the validity of facial or body hair in Sikhi. If you want to discuss that, please go here: http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-s...owth-hair.html
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=35185

Discussion of body hair in exploration of the topic of femininity and Sikh women is fine but should not be argued by members in this thread, please.

I apologise for any misunderstanding however I was only trying to safeguard a topic which I believe is important to be explored but could easily descend into a back-and-forth argument over hairy chins and legs. I hope the thread (if it works) can explore these topics without bickering about the validity of kesh in Sikhi. If someone says they only feel feminine with/without their kesh, I wouldn't want to see another member shooting them down for it here.

kds1980 · #4 (**permalink**) 19-Apr-2011, 17:11 PM

Quote:

I hear some of my fellow Sikh sisters-in-faith (and myself occasionally) say that Islam is sometimes a tempting religion because of how beautiful the hijab is, they can wear make-up and be "feminine", and sometimes my sisters feel they are expected to be like men instead.

Does this de-value women?

Are you talking about Amritdhari women?Large majority of Sikh women just cover their head with colorful chunni's .I don't know How can anyone say Hijab is beautiful than chunni?As far make up is concerned again non amritdhari women do wear make up,the only problem is accessive facial hair Which I think is more in western born women because in my family I have seen so many women who never removed hair from face yet their faces are just like any other beauty parlour going women

spnadmin · #5 (**permalink**) 19-Apr-2011, 18:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kds1980

Are you talking about Amritdhari women?Large majority of Sikh women just cover their head with colorful chunni's .I don't know How can anyone say Hijab is beautiful than chunni?As far make up is concerned again non amritdhari women do wear make up,the only problem is accessive facial hair Which I think is more in western born women because in my family I have seen so many women who never removed hair from face yet their faces are just like any other beauty parlour going women

So much is opinion I don't know where to start.

Yes to above. I am not getting the hijab myself. It is baggy, which I see unattractive. There is even a difference when shopping for salwar suits. The Pakistani suit, made for Muslim women, is baggy and shapeless. The Punjabi suit, for Muslim and non-Muslim alike, is carefully measured and tailored to the body, and more attractive "in my humble opinion." Fabrics are glorious and flatter every type of woman. My vote is for Punjabi dress... there are so many styles of kameez and salwar, and so many different embroideries and stunning fabrics.

European women are genetically pre-disposed to have more facial hair - though differences depend on region of family origin in Europe. Many Indian women do not have much facial hair as you say, even after they get older. The question of tweezing or threading eye-brows is probably what the young women mean. They don't want bushy eyebrows.

Mai Harinder Kaur · #6 (**permalink**) 20-Apr-2011, 01:23 AM

I'm probably not the right person to ask because I have never been a girly-girl. I was never interested in frilly clothes, make-up, giggling and all that. As for high-heeled shoes, well, forget it! I admit they look nice and I am just toooooo short, but I have too much respect for my back to mess with those. Please bear in mind that I am just one woman and one kind of woman, thankfully unencumbered by the baggage of the Punjabi patriarchy.

I have never really cared much what I look like. As long as I am neat and clean and decently covered and comfortable, I'm happy. All of this sort of stuff is external femininity and it isn't important to me. I am a woman. I am a strong woman. I am a strong Sikh woman and I like it. I think feminine strength can be different than masculine. I could never lift as much as my husband; I wouldn't even try to match his physical strength. However, I could easily best him in agility and endurance.

Also, the rules for Khalsa woman are more strict than for non-Khalsa. There is, however, nothing in the SRM that prohibits Khalsa women from wearing make-up, if they choose. Personally, I would rather they didn't, but that is my preference.

From earliest childhood, I was taught to defend myself. (I had 7 older brothers; that in itself is a great teacher!) Mai Bhago was held up as my role model. But I am not all fighting warrior. The greatest joy in my life was being the wife of a hyper-masculine, alpha male (the real thing, not a macho fool prancing around putting on a show). My second greatest joy was being a mother. Really. I was completely surprised by how much I enjoyed being a mom. I do not want to go into that right now, just to say it was wonderful.

I don't think femininity is any one thing. It is mostly how I think of myself. I have always strongly identified with my womanhood and loved it. It does not make me weak or dependent. I think we have a lot of overcoming to do because of the patriarchal Punjabi system we are stuck in. That's another topic though.

To me, being a woman, being feminine doesn't mean being weak or simpering. I am as feminine in my own way as the most dedicate hot house blossom. I think Sikh women are called upon to be stronger than most non-Sikh women. If we didn't have it in us, Guru wqouldn't ask it of us.

Indulge me a bit, please and let me reproduce one of my favourite statements on being a woman. Dear Sojourner Truth, 1851.

Quote:

"]Sojourner Truth (1797-1883): Ain't I A Woman?
Delivered 1851
Women's Convention, Akron, Ohio

Well, children, where there is so much racket there must be something out of kilter. I think that 'twixt the negroes of the South and the women at the North, all talking about rights, the white men will be in a fix pretty soon. But what's all this here talking about?

That man over there says that women need to be helped into carriages, and lifted over ditches, and to have the best place everywhere. Nobody ever helps me into carriages, or over mud-puddles, or gives me any best place! And ain't I a woman? Look at me! Look at my arm! I have ploughed and planted, and gathered into barns, and no man could head me! And ain't I a woman? I could work as much and eat as much as a man - when I could get it - and bear the lash as well! And ain't I a woman? I have borne thirteen children, and seen most all sold off to slavery, and when I cried out with my mother's grief, none but Jesus heard me! And ain't I a woman?

Then they talk about this thing in the head; what's this they call it? [member of audience whispers, "intellect"] That's it, honey. What's that got to do with women's rights or negroes' rights? If my cup won't hold but a pint, and yours holds a quart, wouldn't you be mean not to let me have my little half measure full?

Then that little man in black there, he says women can't have as much rights as men, 'cause Christ wasn't a woman! Where did your Christ come from? Where did your Christ come from? From God and a woman! Man had nothing to do with Him.

If the first woman God ever made was strong enough to turn the world upside down all alone, these women together ought to be able to turn it back , and get it right side up again! And now they is asking to do it, the men better let them.

Obliged to you for hearing me, and now old Sojourner ain't got nothing more to say.

With an attitude like that, old Sojourner would have made a great Sikh, I think.

YouTube - Alfre Woodard reads Sojourner Truth

Ambarsaria · #7 (**permalink**) 20-Apr-2011, 02:27 AM

One wonderful Qawalli I wish most will understand but I will try to translate a gist later,

Live At The BBC - Yusuf Azad Qawwal & Rashida Khatoon - Aise Besharam Aashiq

YouTube - Live At The BBC - Yusuf Azad Qawwal & Rashida Khatoon - Aise Besharam Aashiq

I believe femininity should be considered more in the context of a complementary masculine partner if one is married. There are varieties and levels of perceived femininity and masculinity. On itself these can become aberrant while in a couple these can match like a hand in glove.

Just another thought whether femininity by itself is a conceptual definable element.

For example one of the lines in the video they talk about duality of man and woman.

Paraphrase,

Quote:

Even the men have various levels of femininity embedded in them and as such some are more feminine versus others in addition to their masculinity elements. The lady sings, "what happened god made some as a man and they act as though a woman (sorry highly controversial as to what a woman is supposed to act like, but just stating as sung)"

Definitely some thoughts for dialog in the qawalli.

Is a more appropriate question what men like in women or what their concept of beauty of a woman is and how much being feminine makes part of it? Also it could be compared with woman's idea of the same.

Just some thoughts for dialog.

Sat Sri Akal.

mariposazul · #8 (**permalink**) 20-Apr-2011, 06:38 AM

Thank you Ishna for posting this...

Kesh in all its forms is not the prob for me, I've never enjoyed shaving, tweezing, waxing or whatever other painful invention a lot of women may go through to look smooth, in the past I have experienced all and paid for it dearly, don't recommend it.

However, I did grow up in a Latin country, very patriarchal and the 'outward appearance' of a woman is very clear...girlish, sensual,sexy, in a nutshell you wear your sensuality and sexuality on your sleeve...this has been established way before Hollywood ever discovered or promoted this look.

As a young girl and even now in my 30's, and more so that I have taken Sikhi and considering Amrit, I am constantly told to 'market' myself or my pickin for a husband will be slim to none, yes in those words >:/... I never could fully commit to this way of thinking, whether because of an allergic reaction to even the most 'organic' 'skin friendly' makeup or the annoyance in having to look sexier than the next woman every day, just ended up being a stupid neurotic self made competition which led to more insecurity in the long run.

So when I came upon Sikhi and learned about the role of women in Sikhi as the Gurus planted it, especially after the founding of the Khalsa, it was an entirely different, new world for me and at hands reach for me. But, I've heard so many interpretations specifically on how a Kaur should be and act and dress and not do or do I've gotten to a stump on the road...I know my inner strength, I know I look like a girl even if you put overalls on me and combat boots, but to be equal to a man, does it mean losing your outward femininity as well? And mind you, I'm not into makeup, but when I would go to Gurdwara (I don't have one available now) I would see the pretty chunis, and the pretty sewar kameez, even the most simply ornate one to the most elaborate was feminine just the same...no offense to the men on the forum, but I am fine with being a Singh's equal but I don't want to be confused with one.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=35185

I can understand if I was literally out in the battle field there were and are certain ways of dress that aid in battle, but for me, the battles I've encountered have been spiritual - crossing the earthbound and divine realm at the same time, fortunately I haven't had to wack someone over the head with a frying pan, (because I have no clue on how to use any type of weapon), but if need be I wouldn't hesitate if I knew how and
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=35185
had to.

PS-Thank you Mai Harinder ji your input is very valuable and helpful for me.

Ishna · #9 (**permalink**) 20-Apr-2011, 09:49 AM

Thank you all for participating!

KDS1980 ji: I'm talking about Sikh women who are Amritdhari or are aiming to one day become Amritdhari. When contemplating amrit sanchar and being Amritdhari, one ponders how this will change one's life and how to integrate the requirements into one's life. Someone who is happy being a Sikh and not a Khalsa might not encounter any contradiction to their femininity.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=35185
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=35185

Chunnis are beautiful, but damn they slide around! I've given up - if I'm going to Gurdwara for a day of cooking and seva I just wear a bandana now and leave the chunni for Sunday morning. That's where the hijab is different I think, a bit more practical.

SPNadmin ji: You make a good point about Punjabi dress, but also your comment about not finding baggy salwar kameez attractive proves one crucial element of femininity -- it is largely in the eye of the beholder. I love baggy salwar kameez, they're the only ones I wear. I find modesty ENHANCES femininity. Maybe that's why I like the hijab.

Mai ji: I've always been a tom-boy, myself. I have difficulty expressing my femininity because it is counter to my Aussie culture's standard. The standard here is to show skin (more is better), colour and style your hair, wear make-up, high-heels, be giggly and interested in magazines and fashion and shopping. I am most comfortable like you, modestly dressed, flat shoes, utilitarian hair-do (that means tied back so it doesn't get in my eyes and doesn't get messy and knot up). And I LOVE this part of the quote you provided: "Then that little man in black there, he says women can't have as much rights as men, 'cause Christ wasn't a woman! Where did your Christ come from? Where did your Christ come from? From God and a woman! Man had nothing to do with Him."

Ambarsaria ji makes a good point: is masculinity and femininity a form of duality? However, isn't it a biological duality? How is it possible to escape that? One might say the aim should be to remove the sense of masculine/feminine and focus more on HUMAN. But from my perspective that seems to mean that men remain men and women adjust to the way the men are to bridge the duality gap.

People point to Mai Bhago as a great role model for women, however she was honoured by Guru Gobind Singh Ji by being provide with a male uniform to wear. No doubt Mai Bhago has great lessons to teach us about how to connect with our masculinity, and more, but can anyone suggest for me what a "feminine" Sikh role model could be?

When you consider Sikh women from history, what speaks to you (if anything) of their femininity? What is the difference between a Sikh man and a Sikh woman?

Is dressing up, making yourself attractive to the men in your culture, a biological program within women to ensure survival of the species? Is it right to disregard such a drive if it is indeed innate?