An Outsider's Thought on the 5ks

Sicarius · #1 (**permalink**) 11-Jul-2012, 11:24 AM

I am a new Sikhi. I am a Latino, and was raised a Catholic. I feel that this empowers me in some ways to look at new religions objectively.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/38767-an-outsiders-thought-on-the-5ks.html

I have respect for the 5ks, I understand their origin, and been moved by their meaning. However, what attracts me to Sikhism, is it's rejection of blind ritual and mythology. I consider the K's a choice in this way, as it is meant to honor the ancient history of persecution the Sikh's experience and their rebellion to it. However, to say a man has erred God by not wearing a beard, and a turban is obviously contrary core Sikh beliefs. This can be seen in that I believe it was the 9th or 10th Guru who introduced the obligation, thus making it something relatively new. The 5 K's is a culture practice showing honor to history of struggle alongside a modern maintenance and rememberance of it. However, it is obligatory to be a good Sikh is 100% contrary to everything I have read on Sikhism.

I've heard the arguments that cutting one's hair is harming oneself. Yet Sikhs clip their nails... I've heard the argument that they only cut the dead part of the nail, but even this is untrue, all attached nails are as much living tissue as hair itself. The institution has become a dogmatic group identification function, which is fine, but it IS optional and more linked to Punjabi Sikh history than worship of God. This dichotomy is most notably shown in that many turbaned and kes-carrying Sikhs drink alcohol and eat bad food or just live unhealthy... The whole point of the symbol of the Kes is not harming oneself, it's a huge hypocrisy to simply maintain the superficiality of a symbol while debasing it's meaning. Living healthy, taking care of one's body and rejecting vice says far more of virtue than not cutting one's hair which has 0 functional use and is hypocritical if you clip your nails.

The focus of the Turban is to show proudly that one is Sikh and wear it like a crown. Yet one does not need a turban to be proud or walk like a Singh. If one wants to truly show their loyalty to Sikhdom to the world, then a tattoo would serve just as well. The turban is a cultural symbol to express a deeper meaning, yet that meaning can be expressed as well without it. Thus from my point of view, it is a choice.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38767

In addition, the Kirpan, has little to no functional use nowadays as a weapon against injustice, being martially prepared and armed on your property is far more effective.

Dedication to the 5ks is admirable, but from an objective outlook they are just socio-cultural practices reflecting a history of oppression in the Punjab in the 17th and 18th centuries...and have little to do with understanding of God or the ethics attached to it. They are outward symbols of inward meaning that are better lived through ethics than shown in through a costume.

In my culture, I also have been taught from a young age that a short haircut with a trim beard represents cleanliness. I have left Catholicism for it's flawed outlook and organization, but I do not also need to leave my Latin cultural more's to become a Sikh from my POV.

Will I encounter prejudice in my path to becoming a Sikh by holding this opinion?
What branches/sects of Sikhism do not 'require' a turban, and a beard?

What are your thoughts on my assertion upon the Ks?

Sincerely,
A New Sikh

harry haller · #2 (**permalink**) 11-Jul-2012, 13:12 PM

Quote:

I have respect for the 5ks, I understand their origin, and been moved by their meaning. However, what attracts me to Sikhism, is it's rejection of blind ritual and mythology

This is an excellent reason to be attracted to Sikhism. For me Sikhism reflects the shortest path between a man and God, primarily due to these reasons.

Quote:

However, to say a man has erred God by not wearing a beard, and a turban is obviously contrary core Sikh beliefs

I do not believe it possible for a Sikh to err God. I do not believe God has any interest per se in each individual activity we do. Judgement comes through Creation, not God, in my belief. God is no more likely to be erred by the lack of hair, than it is to be pleased by parrot squawking chanting of hymns, or the doing of good deeds.

Quote:

The 5 K's is a culture practice showing honor to history of struggle alongside a modern maintenance and rememberance of it

I do not wear the 5 K's myself, and I am guilty of judging those who do, I expect the highest standards from our Amritdharis, those that are baptised and pledge to behave like good Sikhs. I expect them to behave almost like Guruji himself. If not, why would anyone go to all that trouble just for physical appearance? I do not consider my mental or physical state at a level hight enough to wear them, but one day I do intend to, it will be a proud day for me, not because I am wearing them, but because I will have earned them, you see, they are like pips on a Generals lapel, like a certificate of degree, a medal of honour, I do not believe one should just adopt the physical persona, and it certainly does not stop one being a good Sikh. In fact, my ideal Sikh is one who has lived, learned, and then chosen to give his head to the Guru. You may note that the 5 K's were worn by the tenth Guru. He wanted to give himself to us, when we consider ourselves ready, he would be us, we would be him, I think that is the general idea, but someone wiser than myself may correct me on this.

Quote:

I've heard the arguments that cutting one's hair is harming oneself. Yet Sikhs clip their nails... I've heard the argument that they only cut the dead part of the nail, but even this is untrue, all attached nails are as much living tissue as hair itself. The institution has become a dogmatic group identification function, which is fine, but it IS optional and more linked to Punjabi Sikh history than worship of God. This dichotomy is most notably shown in that many turbaned and kes-carrying Sikhs drink alcohol and eat bad food or just live unhealthy... The whole point of the symbol of the Kes is not harming oneself, it's a huge hypocrisy to simply maintain the superficiality of a symbol while debasing it's meaning. Living healthy, taking care of one's body and rejecting vice says far more of virtue than not cutting one's hair which has 0 functional use and is hypocritical if you clip your nails.

The focus of the Turban is to show proudly that one is Sikh and wear it like a crown. Yet one does not need a turban to be proud or walk like a Singh. If one wants to truly show their loyalty to Sikhdom to the world, then a tattoo would serve just as well. The turban is a cultural symbol to express a deeper meaning, yet that meaning can be expressed as well without it. Thus from my point of view, it is a choice.

In addition, the Kirpan, has little to no functional use nowadays as a weapon against injustice, being martially prepared and armed on your property is far more effective.

Dedication to the 5ks is admirable, but from an objective outlook they are just socio-cultural practices reflecting a history of oppression in the Punjab in the 17th and 18th centuries...and have little to do with understanding of God or the ethics attached to it. They are outward symbols of inward meaning that are better lived through ethics than shown in through a costume.

Your arguments are spot on, in fact I pity any Sikh that views Sikhism in this fashion. As stated above, get the inside right first, and you may find your soul screams out in joy to be recognised as a Sikh, with all the pips, certificates and medals that you have rightly earned.

A big part of being a Sikh is being a social policeman, helping the weak, feeding the hungry, standing against oppression, fighting for the ultimate truth, not the truth that raises monuments to those we hung yesterday, but the ultimate truth, for this reason, once you have found yourself, once your outsides reflect your insides, and you look like a Sikh, it is easier for others in need of help to find you.

Quote:

Will I encounter prejudice in my path to becoming a Sikh by holding this opinion?

possibly, but this opinion is irrelevant, it is the state of your heart, as you already know, that is more important. My own opinions have meant that within my limited circle of Sikhs, I am known as a fool, I wear that badge with pride

Quote:

What branches/sects of Sikhism do not 'require' a turban, and a beard?

Any branch that does not require a turban and beard is surely as bad as one that did!

You can comfortable be a Sikh without a turban and beard, do not worry about it too much, I don't. Forget about branches and sects, concentrate on your relationship with Creator (its the same Creator from Catholicism ), read the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, in fact, read any and all books you can find, you may see that the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji shares many good facets, however, what sold it for me was the lack of pointless ritual, the attempt at breaking the caste system, equality for all sexes, acceptance of the Gay community, it is just a beautiful beautiful path, in fact I have stopped calling it a religion, as somehow that does not do it justice

Gyani Jarnail Singh · #3 (**permalink**) 11-Jul-2012, 14:31 PM

Harry Ji..very well put...thanks.

Seen a Banana..if it has SPOTS on the outside..its rotten on the inside...Havent yet come across a Banana that was rotten OUTSIDE..yet perfectly FRESH on the INSIDE !!! same for a SIKH...a SIKH that is 100% GURMATT/GURSIKH...INSIDE...will definitely SHINE on the OUTSIDE.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38767
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38767
Many "spotted" bananas cum sikhs..strut about oblivious to their spots which actually show their rotten insides quite clearly...its definitley the INSIDE that rots first...its the LAW of nature...so I never beleive anyone who says..Dont look at my face..my heart is super clean...unfortunately the FACE is the ONLY part our eyes can see and judge....even in the Highest courts..the JUDGE can only SEE the Face/body...and decide whos good/bad/whos telling the truth/lieing....NO ONE can see the HEART....

Randip Singh · #4 (**permalink**) 11-Jul-2012, 14:41 PM

I think you have the right attitude. 5 K's are not something to be put on because of dogma. It's an outward symbol or assertion of one individuality. I do have a problem with those people who attack those who cut their hai.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38767
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38767

Our job is to be an example to them. Not talk down to them.

One thing also I have a problem with, is the so called bearded lady. I don't see how a Sikh gets anymore spirituality by making Sikh women not touch hair on their faces. That sems pretty unnatural to me. In other words, men are meant to have a beard, not women.

Then again, I love playing devils advocate.icecreamkudi

Ishna · #5 (**permalink**) 11-Jul-2012, 17:02 PM

Careful not to turn the thread into a kesh debate hey.

Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38767
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38767

When so many 'amritdhari' Sikhs, people running around in the uniform are rotten bananas, then what's the point of wearing the uniform at all?

If most of the police you meet are corrupt, it doesn't matter if the pure cop wears his uniform or not - people are still going to be suspicious of him.

harry haller · #6 (**permalink**) 11-Jul-2012, 17:18 PM

haha sisji,

you can always tell if a fraud is wearing a uniform, its like counterfeit clothes, they always make a mistake because the heart isnt in it!
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38767

I think we all know people that try to hard to convince you of their holiness, you can spot them a mile off,

Archived_member14 · #7 (**permalink**) 11-Jul-2012, 21:58 PM

Randip ji,

Quote:

One thing also I have a problem with, is the so called bearded lady. I don't see how a Sikh gets anymore spirituality by making Sikh women not touch hair on their faces. That sems pretty unnatural to me. In other words, men are meant to have a beard, not women.

Then again, I love playing devils advocate.icecreamkudi

I like to imagine that if you allowed this train of thought to run further, you might arrive at a conclusion that is more radical.
A human being is not a lion nor is he a horse. The hair of these animals serve a particular function. Given what human society is now and taking into account the vanity involved and the impracticality of keeping long hair. Human head and facial hair is actually meant to be cut short, not kept long. This applies both to men as well as women.

And for Sikhs who insist that it is wrong to follow rituals, the reason not to keep hair uncut should be even more.

Rory · #8 (**permalink**) 12-Jul-2012, 00:25 AM

Looks like this will be an interesting thread!!

Harryji, your first post in this thread made me think a lot, so thanks.

One thing, Sicarius-ji

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sicarius

I've heard the argument that they only cut the dead part of the nail, but even this is untrue, all attached nails are as much living tissue as hair itself.

This is wrong; the white part of the fingernail is made up of dead cells, the cells are literally not alive in that part of the nail.. this is just a fact.. they are as dead as dead skin.
Hair is different because nutrients continue to flow through it & therefore it's still alive, but yes hair can die also - if a hair falls out it is dead, or if the end of the hair begins to "split", or dry up and become brittle, then the end of the hair is dead.

Also, if you do not cut your fingernails they interfere with practical duties, and if you don't cut your fingernails, the top of thenail will eventually fall or break off anyways (let's remember how often we hear women complain of broken fingernails, even though they do their utmost to preserve them), because when they overgrow they become soft and bendy and tear off, or else very brittle and they snap off.

I think kesh is important because it reminds us that we are not the most authoritative force in the world; we tend to think that "trimmed" for men is handsome and "smooth-skinned" for women is sexy, but these are just cultural norms that the West has imposed on itself, there were many cultures who thought natural women were sexy (how much did the ancient Egyptians love Cleopatra?) but nowadays Western trends tend to go global.
Basically I'm saying it's a rejection of man's culturally-imposed and self-righteous "authority" over how we should look. Instead we should just let it be, we are all beautiful the way we were made, there should be no need to modify our appearance beyond what is necessary for practical living.

(This is coming from someone who has had to endure a bit of stick for not shaving or cutting my hair in the past few months; I'm not old enough for my facial hair to "properly" grow, so I'm left with some stubbly fuzz instead. It's kind of like the hair on a kiwi. I don't mind at all, though!)

peacesign

Astroboy · #9 (**permalink**) 12-Jul-2012, 00:36 AM

My suggestion to you and all new Sikhs who find the 5Ks controversial, to take things slowly. One at a time. You can start with wearing the Kara (Steel Bangle) and Learn one Paath to do daily.