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An Outsider's Thought on the 5ks

Discussion in 'Sikh Sikhi Sikhism' started by Sicarius, Jul 11, 2012.

  1. Sicarius

    Sicarius
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    I am a new Sikhi. I am a Latino, and was raised a Catholic. I feel that this empowers me in some ways to look at new religions objectively.

    I have respect for the 5ks, I understand their origin, and been moved by their meaning. However, what attracts me to Sikhism, is it's rejection of blind ritual and mythology. I consider the K's a choice in this way, as it is meant to honor the ancient history of persecution the Sikh's experience and their rebellion to it. However, to say a man has erred God by not wearing a beard, and a turban is obviously contrary core Sikh beliefs. This can be seen in that I believe it was the 9th or 10th Guru who introduced the obligation, thus making it something relatively new. The 5 K's is a culture practice showing honor to history of struggle alongside a modern maintenance and rememberance of it. However, it is obligatory to be a good Sikh is 100% contrary to everything I have read on Sikhism.

    I've heard the arguments that cutting one's hair is harming oneself. Yet Sikhs clip their nails... I've heard the argument that they only cut the dead part of the nail, but even this is untrue, all attached nails are as much living tissue as hair itself. The institution has become a dogmatic group identification function, which is fine, but it IS optional and more linked to Punjabi Sikh history than worship of God. This dichotomy is most notably shown in that many turbaned and kes-carrying Sikhs drink alcohol and eat bad food or just live unhealthy... The whole point of the symbol of the Kes is not harming oneself, it's a huge hypocrisy to simply maintain the superficiality of a symbol while debasing it's meaning. Living healthy, taking care of one's body and rejecting vice says far more of virtue than not cutting one's hair which has 0 functional use and is hypocritical if you clip your nails.

    The focus of the Turban is to show proudly that one is Sikh and wear it like a crown. Yet one does not need a turban to be proud or walk like a Singh. If one wants to truly show their loyalty to Sikhdom to the world, then a tattoo would serve just as well. The turban is a cultural symbol to express a deeper meaning, yet that meaning can be expressed as well without it. Thus from my point of view, it is a choice.

    In addition, the Kirpan, has little to no functional use nowadays as a weapon against injustice, being martially prepared and armed on your property is far more effective.

    Dedication to the 5ks is admirable, but from an objective outlook they are just socio-cultural practices reflecting a history of oppression in the Punjab in the 17th and 18th centuries...and have little to do with understanding of God or the ethics attached to it. They are outward symbols of inward meaning that are better lived through ethics than shown in through a costume.

    In my culture, I also have been taught from a young age that a short haircut with a trim beard represents cleanliness. I have left Catholicism for it's flawed outlook and organization, but I do not also need to leave my Latin cultural more's to become a Sikh from my POV.

    Will I encounter prejudice in my path to becoming a Sikh by holding this opinion?
    What branches/sects of Sikhism do not 'require' a turban, and a beard?

    What are your thoughts on my assertion upon the Ks?

    Sincerely,
    A New Sikh
     
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    #1 Sicarius, Jul 11, 2012
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2012
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  3. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
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    This is an excellent reason to be attracted to Sikhism. For me Sikhism reflects the shortest path between a man and God, primarily due to these reasons.

    I do not believe it possible for a Sikh to err God. I do not believe God has any interest per se in each individual activity we do. Judgement comes through Creation, not God, in my belief. God is no more likely to be erred by the lack of hair, than it is to be pleased by parrot squawking chanting of hymns, or the doing of good deeds.

    I do not wear the 5 K's myself, and I am guilty of judging those who do, I expect the highest standards from our Amritdharis, those that are baptised and pledge to behave like good Sikhs. I expect them to behave almost like Guruji himself. If not, why would anyone go to all that trouble just for physical appearance? I do not consider my mental or physical state at a level hight enough to wear them, but one day I do intend to, it will be a proud day for me, not because I am wearing them, but because I will have earned them, you see, they are like pips on a Generals lapel, like a certificate of degree, a medal of honour, I do not believe one should just adopt the physical persona, and it certainly does not stop one being a good Sikh. In fact, my ideal Sikh is one who has lived, learned, and then chosen to give his head to the Guru. You may note that the 5 K's were worn by the tenth Guru. He wanted to give himself to us, when we consider ourselves ready, he would be us, we would be him, I think that is the general idea, but someone wiser than myself may correct me on this.

    Your arguments are spot on, in fact I pity any Sikh that views Sikhism in this fashion. As stated above, get the inside right first, and you may find your soul screams out in joy to be recognised as a Sikh, with all the pips, certificates and medals that you have rightly earned.

    A big part of being a Sikh is being a social policeman, helping the weak, feeding the hungry, standing against oppression, fighting for the ultimate truth, not the truth that raises monuments to those we hung yesterday, but the ultimate truth, for this reason, once you have found yourself, once your outsides reflect your insides, and you look like a Sikh, it is easier for others in need of help to find you.

    possibly, but this opinion is irrelevant, it is the state of your heart, as you already know, that is more important. My own opinions have meant that within my limited circle of Sikhs, I am known as a fool, I wear that badge with pride :)

    Any branch that does not require a turban and beard is surely as bad as one that did! :)
    You can comfortable be a Sikh without a turban and beard, do not worry about it too much, I don't. Forget about branches and sects, concentrate on your relationship with Creator (its the same Creator from Catholicism ), read the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, in fact, read any and all books you can find, you may see that the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji shares many good facets, however, what sold it for me was the lack of pointless ritual, the attempt at breaking the caste system, equality for all sexes, acceptance of the Gay community, it is just a beautiful beautiful path, in fact I have stopped calling it a religion, as somehow that does not do it justice
     
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  4. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    Harry Ji..very well put...thanks.

    Seen a Banana..if it has SPOTS on the outside..its rotten on the inside...Havent yet come across a Banana that was rotten OUTSIDE..yet perfectly FRESH on the INSIDE !!! same for a SIKH...a SIKH that is 100% GURMATT/GURSIKH...INSIDE...will definitely SHINE on the OUTSIDE.
    Many "spotted" bananas cum sikhs..strut about oblivious to their spots which actually show their rotten insides quite clearly...its definitley the INSIDE that rots first...its the LAW of nature...so I never beleive anyone who says..Dont look at my face..my heart is super clean...unfortunately the FACE is the ONLY part our eyes can see and judge....even in the Highest courts..the JUDGE can only SEE the Face/body...and decide whos good/bad/whos telling the truth/lieing....NO ONE can see the HEART....
     
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    #3 Gyani Jarnail Singh, Jul 11, 2012
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  5. Randip Singh

    Randip Singh
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    I think you have the right attitude. 5 K's are not something to be put on because of dogma. It's an outward symbol or assertion of one individuality. I do have a problem with those people who attack those who cut their hai.

    Our job is to be an example to them. Not talk down to them.

    One thing also I have a problem with, is the so called bearded lady. I don't see how a Sikh gets anymore spirituality by making Sikh women not touch hair on their faces. That sems pretty unnatural to me. In other words, men are meant to have a beard, not women.

    Then again, I love playing devils advocate.icecreamkudi
     
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  6. Ishna

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    Careful not to turn the thread into a kesh debate hey. :badidea:

    When so many 'amritdhari' Sikhs, people running around in the uniform are rotten bananas, then what's the point of wearing the uniform at all?

    If most of the police you meet are corrupt, it doesn't matter if the pure cop wears his uniform or not - people are still going to be suspicious of him.
     
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  7. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
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    haha sisji,

    you can always tell if a fraud is wearing a uniform, its like counterfeit clothes, they always make a mistake because the heart isnt in it!

    I think we all know people that try to hard to convince you of their holiness, you can spot them a mile off,
     
  8. Archived_member14

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    Randip ji,

    I like to imagine that if you allowed this train of thought to run further, you might arrive at a conclusion that is more radical.
    A human being is not a lion nor is he a horse. The hair of these animals serve a particular function. Given what human society is now and taking into account the vanity involved and the impracticality of keeping long hair. Human head and facial hair is actually meant to be cut short, not kept long. This applies both to men as well as women.

    And for Sikhs who insist that it is wrong to follow rituals, the reason not to keep hair uncut should be even more.
     
  9. Rory

    Rory
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    Looks like this will be an interesting thread!! :interestedsingh:
    Harryji, your first post in this thread made me think a lot, so thanks.

    One thing, Sicarius-ji
    This is wrong; the white part of the fingernail is made up of dead cells, the cells are literally not alive in that part of the nail.. this is just a fact.. they are as dead as dead skin.
    Hair is different because nutrients continue to flow through it & therefore it's still alive, but yes hair can die also - if a hair falls out it is dead, or if the end of the hair begins to "split", or dry up and become brittle, then the end of the hair is dead.

    Also, if you do not cut your fingernails they interfere with practical duties, and if you don't cut your fingernails, the top of thenail will eventually fall or break off anyways (let's remember how often we hear women complain of broken fingernails, even though they do their utmost to preserve them), because when they overgrow they become soft and bendy and tear off, or else very brittle and they snap off.

    I think kesh is important because it reminds us that we are not the most authoritative force in the world; we tend to think that "trimmed" for men is handsome and "smooth-skinned" for women is sexy, but these are just cultural norms that the West has imposed on itself, there were many cultures who thought natural women were sexy (how much did the ancient Egyptians love Cleopatra?) but nowadays Western trends tend to go global.
    Basically I'm saying it's a rejection of man's culturally-imposed and self-righteous "authority" over how we should look. Instead we should just let it be, we are all beautiful the way we were made, there should be no need to modify our appearance beyond what is necessary for practical living.

    (This is coming from someone who has had to endure a bit of stick for not shaving or cutting my hair in the past few months; I'm not old enough for my facial hair to "properly" grow, so I'm left with some stubbly fuzz instead. It's kind of like the hair on a kiwi. I don't mind at all, though!)

    peacesign
     
  10. Astroboy

    Astroboy Malaysia
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    My suggestion to you and all new Sikhs who find the 5Ks controversial, to take things slowly. One at a time. You can start with wearing the Kara (Steel Bangle) and Learn one Paath to do daily.
     
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  11. linzer

    linzer Mexico
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    It was the 10<sup>th</sup> Guru, Guru Gobind Singh, but you should know that we regard all 10 gurus as the same illuminating force. Therefore it makes no real difference If it’s the first or the last. It’s is still and obligation for receiving amrit.
    It's not necessary that you cut your hair,wear a turban or use any of the other 5k to go to Gurwara or study the S.G.G.S. .I know plenty of Indian Sikhs here in Mexico that don't but If one day you decide that you want to take Amrit then it would become an obligation.
    I think that one day I will receive Amrit so I've started to use the 5 k's . I regard not cutting my hair as accepting how look I am without vanity. I think people in general waste too much of their lives by not accepting themselves as they are.
    I go to swim three times a week and I find it hugely amusing that it takes me less time to get dressed, comb and tie my hair and beard( which is quite long now) than some fellows with very short hair. They stand in front of the mirror with gel and blow dryers trying to get that one imaginary hair to stay in place.
    As to cleanliness, I think my hair is cleaner now than its' ever been since its always covered.
    I wouldn't worry too much about it right now just keep reading Gurbani and Sikh history as well.
    Maybe one day you'll change your mind. I did.
     
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    #10 linzer, Jul 15, 2012
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  12. chazSingh

    chazSingh United Kingdom
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    Q&A with Yogi Bhajan

    Question: Most Kundalini Yoga students let their hair grow. Is this necessary?
    Answer: No. You can practice with any length hair, but the hair was the first technique to raise the Kundalini energy. When the hair is at its natural full length and coiled over the anterior fontanelfor men or the posterior fontanel for women, it draws pranic energy into the spine. The force of this downward positive energy causes the Kundalini energy to rise for balance.
    Actually, the hair was so important that the word for consciousness, kundalini, derives from the kundal which means “a coil of the beloved’s hair.”

    Also very enlightening is this video:
    Why Yogis and Swamis have long hair and beards? Sadhguru - YouTube



    I tie my hair in a Kundal when i meditate...now although someone with cut hair can also meditate and reach high levels of concentration and suceed spiritually, i will try and utilize what i can within nature to help the kundalini rise and to balance my bodies energy and field.

    If you are not interested in 'REALLY' experiencing god, whilst still alive in this body today, then it doesnt matter at all whether you wear the 5 k's or not...it becomes a ritual.

    If you are interested and want to 'TEST', 'EVALUATE' and 'EXPERIEMENT' with consciousness (God), then they are no longer a ritual, they become tools to aid the experiment....and if you reach your goal, then the 5 k's also stand you out like a lighthhouse so that others may find you and receive help from you (A True khalsa)


    Hope this helps.
     
  13. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
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    is this the same rising kundalini that is frowned on by the SGGS?
     
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  14. chazSingh

    chazSingh United Kingdom
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    SGGS Ji Says:
    ku(n)ddalanee surajhee sathasa(n)gath paramaana(n)dh guroo mukh machaa ||
    The Kundalini rises in the Sat Sangat, the True Congregation; through the Word of the Guru, they enjoy the Lord of Supreme Bliss.
    Svaiyay Mehl 5
    1402


    Please do not put words in the guru's mouth :)

    God bless all.
     
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  15. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
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    Chazji

    With respect it is not me that is putting words in the Gurus Mouth. Let us look at the evidence. The word Kundalini is mentioned 5 times, according to SriGranth.org. It is in particular Kundalini Yoga that I feel Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji advises against.

    The first is page 912.



    ਕਿਨਹੀ ਕੀਆ ਪਰਵਿਰਤਿ ਪਸਾਰਾ ॥
    किनही कीआ परविरति पसारा ॥
    Kinhī kī▫ā parviraṯ pasārā.
    Some make a big show of their worldly influence.
    ਕਿਨਹੀ ਕੀਆ ਪੂਜਾ ਬਿਸਥਾਰਾ ॥
    किनही कीआ पूजा बिसथारा ॥
    Kinhī kī▫ā pūjā bisthārā.
    Some make a big show of devotional worship.
    ਕਿਨਹੀ ਨਿਵਲ ਭੁਇਅੰਗਮ ਸਾਧੇ ॥
    किनही निवल भुइअंगम साधे ॥
    Kinhī nival bẖu▫i▫angam sāḏẖe.
    Some practice inner cleansing techniques, and control the breath through Kundalini Yoga.
    ਮੋਹਿ ਦੀਨ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਆਰਾਧੇ ॥੧॥
    मोहि दीन हरि हरि आराधे ॥१॥
    Mohi ḏīn har har ārāḏẖe. ||1||
    I am meek; I worship and adore the Lord, Har, Har. ||1||
    ਤੇਰਾ ਭਰੋਸਾ ਪਿਆਰੇ ॥
    तेरा भरोसा पिआरे ॥
    Ŧerā bẖarosā pi▫āre.
    I place my faith in You alone, O Beloved Lord.
    ਆਨ ਨ ਜਾਨਾ ਵੇਸਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
    आन न जाना वेसा ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
    Ān na jānā vesā. ||1|| rahā▫o.
    I do not know any other way. ||1||Pause||

    I would not call that a huge blessing for the wonders of Kundalini yoga....

    so lets go to number 2

    P972



    ਪੈਸੀਲੇ ਗਗਨ ਮਝਾਰੰ ॥
    पैसीले गगन मझारं ॥
    Paisīle gagan majẖāraʼn.
    I have entered into the sky of the mind, and opened the Tenth Gate.
    ਬੇਧੀਅਲੇ ਚਕ੍ਰ ਭੁਅੰਗਾ ॥
    बेधीअले चक्र भुअंगा ॥
    Beḏẖī▫ale cẖakar bẖuangā.
    The chakras of the coiled Kundalini energy have been opened,
    ਭੇਟੀਅਲੇ ਰਾਇ ਨਿਸੰਗਾ ॥੨॥
    भेटीअले राइ निसंगा ॥२॥
    Bẖetī▫ale rā▫e nisangā. ||2||
    and I have met my Sovereign Lord King without fear. ||2||

    No mention of yoga, but the mention of the word kundalini, used to illustrate a higher state of mind, in the same way that later in the Shabad, both the words 'vedas' and ' messenger of death' are used, merely as illustrative words

    Hmmm still not convinced that the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji advocates Kundalini Yoga, but lets move to number 3, P1043



    ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮ ਬਿਨੁ ਕਿਉ ਸੁਖੁ ਪਾਈਐ ਬਿਨੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਭਰਮੁ ਨ ਜਾਇਆ ॥੧੩॥
    राम नाम बिनु किउ सुखु पाईऐ बिनु सतिगुर भरमु न जाइआ ॥१३॥
    Rām nām bin ki▫o sukẖ pā▫ī▫ai bin saṯgur bẖaram na jā▫i▫ā. ||13||
    But without the Lord's Name, how can anyone find peace? Without the True Guru, doubt is not dispelled. ||13||
    ਨਿਉਲੀ ਕਰਮ ਭੁਇਅੰਗਮ ਭਾਠੀ ॥
    निउली करम भुइअंगम भाठी ॥
    Ni▫ulī karam bẖu▫i▫angam bẖāṯẖī.
    Inner cleansing techniques, channeling the energy to raise the Kundalini to the Tenth Gate,
    ਰੇਚਕ ਕੁੰਭਕ ਪੂਰਕ ਮਨ ਹਾਠੀ ॥
    रेचक कु्मभक पूरक मन हाठी ॥
    Recẖak kumbẖak pūrak man hāṯẖī.
    inhaling, exhaling and holding the breath by the force of the mind -
    ਪਾਖੰਡ ਧਰਮੁ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਨਹੀ ਹਰਿ ਸਉ ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦ ਮਹਾ ਰਸੁ ਪਾਇਆ ॥੧੪॥
    पाखंड धरमु प्रीति नही हरि सउ गुर सबद महा रसु पाइआ ॥१४॥
    Pakẖand ḏẖaram parīṯ nahī har sa▫o gur sabaḏ mahā ras pā▫i▫ā. ||14||
    by empty hypocritical practices, Dharmic love for the Lord is not produced. Only through the Word of the Guru's Shabad is the sublime, supreme essence obtained. ||14||

    Hmmm thats pretty definitive in my view, 'empty hypocritical practices' sums up my own view too pretty well.

    Ok, moving on to number 4 page 1343



    ਨਿਵਲੀ ਕਰਮ ਭੁਅੰਗਮ ਭਾਠੀ ਰੇਚਕ ਪੂਰਕ ਕੁੰਭ ਕਰੈ ॥
    निवली करम भुअंगम भाठी रेचक पूरक कु्मभ करै ॥
    Nivlī karam bẖu▫angam bẖāṯẖī recẖak pūrak kumbẖ karai.
    You may perform exercises of inner purification, and fire up the furnace of the Kundalini, inhaling and exhaling and holding the breath.
    ਬਿਨੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕਿਛੁ ਸੋਝੀ ਨਾਹੀ ਭਰਮੇ ਭੂਲਾ ਬੂਡਿ ਮਰੈ ॥
    बिनु सतिगुर किछु सोझी नाही भरमे भूला बूडि मरै ॥
    Bin saṯgur kicẖẖ sojẖī nāhī bẖarme bẖūlā būd marai.
    Without the True Guru, you will not understand; deluded by doubt, you shall drown and die.
    ਅੰਧਾ ਭਰਿਆ ਭਰਿ ਭਰਿ ਧੋਵੈ ਅੰਤਰ ਕੀ ਮਲੁ ਕਦੇ ਨ ਲਹੈ ॥
    अंधा भरिआ भरि भरि धोवै अंतर की मलु कदे न लहै ॥
    Anḏẖā bẖari▫ā bẖar bẖar ḏẖovai anṯar kī mal kaḏe na lahai.
    The spiritually blind are filled with filth and pollution; they may wash, but the filth within shall never depart.
    ਨਾਮ ਬਿਨਾ ਫੋਕਟ ਸਭਿ ਕਰਮਾ ਜਿਉ ਬਾਜੀਗਰੁ ਭਰਮਿ ਭੁਲੈ ॥੧॥
    नाम बिना फोकट सभि करमा जिउ बाजीगरु भरमि भुलै ॥१॥
    Nām binā fokat sabẖ karmā ji▫o bājīgar bẖaram bẖulai. ||1||
    Without the Naam, the Name of the Lord, all their actions are useless, like the magician who deceives through illusions. ||1||

    Hmmm another pretty definitive statement,

    and now finally number 5, the only statement that could possibly be misunderstood, and open to double meaning, P1402



    ਜਿਨਹੁ ਬਾਤ ਨਿਸ੍ਚਲ ਧ੍ਰੂਅ ਜਾਨੀ ਤੇਈ ਜੀਵ ਕਾਲ ਤੇ ਬਚਾ ॥
    जिनहु बात निस्चल ध्रूअ जानी तेई जीव काल ते बचा ॥
    Jinahu bāṯ niscẖal ḏẖarū▫a jānī ṯe▫ī jīv kāl ṯe bacẖā.
    Those who realize the Eternal, Unchanging Word of God, like Dhroo, are immune to death.
    ਤਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਤਰਿਓ ਸਮੁਦ੍ਰੁ ਰੁਦ੍ਰੁ ਖਿਨ ਇਕ ਮਹਿ ਜਲਹਰ ਬਿੰਬ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਜਗੁ ਰਚਾ ॥
    तिन्ह तरिओ समुद्रु रुद्रु खिन इक महि जलहर बि्मब जुगति जगु रचा ॥
    Ŧinĥ ṯari▫o samuḏar ruḏar kẖin ik mėh jalhar bimb jugaṯ jag racẖā.
    They cross over the terrifying world-ocean in an instant; the Lord created the world like a bubble of water.
    ਕੁੰਡਲਨੀ ਸੁਰਝੀ ਸਤਸੰਗਤਿ ਪਰਮਾਨੰਦ ਗੁਰੂ ਮੁਖਿ ਮਚਾ ॥
    कुंडलनी सुरझी सतसंगति परमानंद गुरू मुखि मचा ॥
    Kundlanī surjẖī saṯsangaṯ parmānanḏ gurū mukẖ macẖā.
    The Kundalini rises in the Sat Sangat, the True Congregation; through the Word of the Guru, they enjoy the Lord of Supreme Bliss.
    ਸਿਰੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਸਭ ਊਪਰਿ ਮਨ ਬਚ ਕ੍ਰੰਮ ਸੇਵੀਐ ਸਚਾ ॥੫॥
    सिरी गुरू साहिबु सभ ऊपरि मन बच क्रम सेवीऐ सचा ॥५॥
    Sirī gurū sāhib sabẖ ūpar man bacẖ krėm sevī▫ai sacẖā. ||5||
    The Supreme Guru is the Lord and Master over all; so serve the True Guru, in thought, word and deed. ||5||
    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿ ਜੀਉ ॥
    वाहिगुरू वाहिगुरू वाहिगुरू वाहि जीउ ॥
    vāhigurū vāhigurū vāhigurū vāhi jī▫o.
    Waahay Guru, Waahay Guru, Waahay Guru, Waahay Jee-o.
    ਕਵਲ ਨੈਨ ਮਧੁਰ ਬੈਨ ਕੋਟਿ ਸੈਨ ਸੰਗ ਸੋਭ ਕਹਤ ਮਾ ਜਸੋਦ ਜਿਸਹਿ ਦਹੀ ਭਾਤੁ ਖਾਹਿ ਜੀਉ ॥
    कवल नैन मधुर बैन कोटि सैन संग सोभ कहत मा जसोद जिसहि दही भातु खाहि जीउ ॥
    Kaval nain maḏẖur bain kot sain sang sobẖ kahaṯ mā jasoḏ jisahi ḏahī bẖāṯ kẖāhi jī▫o.
    You are lotus-eyed, with sweet speech, exalted and embellished with millions of companions. Mother Yashoda invited You as Krishna to eat the sweet rice.
    ਦੇਖਿ ਰੂਪੁ ਅਤਿ ਅਨੂਪੁ ਮੋਹ ਮਹਾ ਮਗ ਭਈ ਕਿੰਕਨੀ ਸਬਦ ਝਨਤਕਾਰ ਖੇਲੁ ਪਾਹਿ ਜੀਉ ॥
    देखि रूपु अति अनूपु मोह महा मग भई किंकनी सबद झनतकार खेलु पाहि जीउ ॥
    Ḏekẖ rūp aṯ anūp moh mahā mag bẖa▫ī kinknī sabaḏ jẖanaṯkār kẖel pāhi jī▫o.
    Gazing upon Your supremely beautiful form, and hearing the musical sounds of Your silver bells tinkling, she was intoxicated with delight.
    ਕਾਲ ਕਲਮ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਹਾਥਿ ਕਹਹੁ ਕਉਨੁ ਮੇਟਿ ਸਕੈ ਈਸੁ ਬੰਮ੍ਯ੍ਯੁ ਗ੍ਯ੍ਯਾਨੁ ਧ੍ਯ੍ਯਾਨੁ ਧਰਤ ਹੀਐ ਚਾਹਿ ਜੀਉ ॥
    काल कलम हुकमु हाथि कहहु कउनु मेटि सकै ईसु बम्यु ग्यानु ध्यानु धरत हीऐ चाहि जीउ ॥
    Kāl kalam hukam hāth kahhu ka▫un met sakai īs bamm▫yu ga▫yān ḏẖeān ḏẖaraṯ hī▫ai cẖāhi jī▫o.
    Death's pen and command are in Your hands. Tell me, who can erase it? Shiva and Brahma yearn to enshrine Your spiritual wisdom in their hearts.
    ਸਤਿ ਸਾਚੁ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਨਿਵਾਸੁ ਆਦਿ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਸਦਾ ਤੁਹੀ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿ ਜੀਉ ॥੧॥੬॥
    सति साचु स्री निवासु आदि पुरखु सदा तुही वाहिगुरू वाहिगुरू वाहिगुरू वाहि जीउ ॥१॥६॥
    Saṯ sācẖ sarī nivās āḏ purakẖ saḏā ṯuhī vāhigurū vāhigurū vāhigurū vāhi jī▫o. ||1||6||
    You are forever True, the Home of Excellence, the Primal Supreme Being. Waahay Guru, Waahay Guru, Waahay Guru, Waahay Jee-o. ||1||6||
    ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮ ਪਰਮ ਧਾਮ ਸੁਧ ਬੁਧ ਨਿਰੀਕਾਰ ਬੇਸੁਮਾਰ ਸਰਬਰ ਕਉ ਕਾਹਿ ਜੀਉ ॥
    राम नाम परम धाम सुध बुध निरीकार बेसुमार सरबर कउ काहि जीउ ॥
    Rām nām param ḏẖām suḏẖ buḏẖ nirīkār besumār sarbar ka▫o kāhi jī▫o.
    You are blessed with the Lord's Name, the supreme mansion, and clear understanding. You are the Formless, Infinite Lord; who can compare to You?
    ਸੁਥਰ ਚਿਤ ਭਗਤ ਹਿਤ ਭੇਖੁ ਧਰਿਓ ਹਰਨਾਖਸੁ ਹਰਿਓ ਨਖ ਬਿਦਾਰਿ ਜੀਉ ॥
    सुथर चित भगत हित भेखु धरिओ हरनाखसु हरिओ नख बिदारि जीउ ॥
    Suthar cẖiṯ bẖagaṯ hiṯ bẖekẖ ḏẖari▫o harnākẖas hari▫o nakẖ biḏār jī▫o.
    For the sake of the pure-hearted devotee Prahlaad, You took the form of the man-lion, to tear apart and destroy Harnaakhash with your claws.
    ਸੰਖ ਚਕ੍ਰ ਗਦਾ ਪਦਮ ਆਪਿ ਆਪੁ ਕੀਓ ਛਦਮ ਅਪਰੰਪਰ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਲਖੈ ਕਉਨੁ ਤਾਹਿ ਜੀਉ ॥
    संख चक्र गदा पदम आपि आपु कीओ छदम अपर्मपर पारब्रहम लखै कउनु ताहि जीउ ॥
    Sankẖ cẖakar gaḏā paḏam āp āp kī▫o cẖẖaḏam aprampar pārbarahm lakẖai ka▫un ṯāhi jī▫o.
    You are the Infinite Supreme Lord God; with your symbols of power, You deceived Baliraja; who can know You?
    ਸਤਿ ਸਾਚੁ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਨਿਵਾਸੁ ਆਦਿ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਸਦਾ ਤੁਹੀ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿ ਜੀਉ ॥੨॥੭॥
    सति साचु स्री निवासु आदि पुरखु सदा तुही वाहिगुरू वाहिगुरू वाहिगुरू वाहि जीउ ॥२॥७॥
    Saṯ sācẖ sarī nivās āḏ purakẖ saḏā ṯuhī vāhigurū vāhigurū vāhigurū vāhi jī▫o. ||2||7||
    You are forever True, the Home of Excellence, the Primal Supreme Being. Waahay Guru, Waahay Guru, Waahay Guru, Waahay Jee-o. ||2||7||
    ਪੀਤ ਬਸਨ ਕੁੰਦ ਦਸਨ ਪ੍ਰਿਆ ਸਹਿਤ ਕੰਠ ਮਾਲ ਮੁਕਟੁ ਸੀਸਿ ਮੋਰ ਪੰਖ ਚਾਹਿ ਜੀਉ ॥
    पीत बसन कुंद दसन प्रिआ सहित कंठ माल मुकटु सीसि मोर पंख चाहि जीउ ॥
    Pīṯ basan kunḏ ḏasan pari▫a sahiṯ kanṯẖ māl mukat sīs mor pankẖ cẖāhi jī▫o.
    As Krishna, You wear yellow robes, with teeth like jasmine flowers; You dwell with Your lovers, with Your mala around Your neck, and You joyfully adorn Your head with the crow of peacock feathers.

    Reading the above, it is clear the concept of Kundalini is sitting surrounded by many other concepts and a few deities, Krishna, Baliraja, Prahlaad, Shiva, Brahma,

    Clearly this is another reference to Vedic practices, and kundalini is mentioned to illustrate the bliss felt. By your logic, Krishna, Baliraja, Prahlaad, Shiva, Brahma all existed too?

    So there you have it, 5 references, 2 possibly open to debate, 3 quite definitive
     
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    #14 Harry Haller, Jul 16, 2012
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2012
  16. chazSingh

    chazSingh United Kingdom
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    God Bless
     
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  17. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
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    Chazji

    let us be succinct here.


    Inner cleansing techniques, channeling the energy to raise the Kundalini to the Tenth Gate, inhaling, exhaling and holding the breath by the force of the mind. By empty hypocritical practices, Dharmic love for the Lord is not produced. Only through the Word of the Guru's Shabad is the sublime, supreme essence obtained

    Now to me, this requires no help in understanding, its quite simple, channeling the energy to raise the kundalini, is an inner cleansing technique and is clearly stated as a empty hypocritical practice. Its really quite simple, I do not know why you are complicating a very simple quotation.

    You have written

    You claim to have controlled your ego, but I find a lot of your definitive statements quite egoistical, with respect brother.




    I agree, but this is not the debate, this is your defence to kundalini being described as an empty practice in the SGGS,


    I want my mind to understand God and the order of God, anything else is just 'inner cleansing', in effect, without the understanding of your mind, do you have any understanding at all?



    But we have already established that trying to raise your kundalini is nothing more than an empty practice, so I am confused as to why you persist in making this rising kundalini, some sort of important Sikh practice
     
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  18. Searching

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    For me Yoga is a type of exercise to keep healthy. As long as it practiced for that reason, its fine.
    Sikhism does not advocate any special postures or exercises by which God can be experienced or experienced faster.

    Can someone explain to me what is kundalini Yaga and how is it related to Sikhism especially in respect to 3HO guys.
     
  19. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
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    http://www.3ho.org/kundalini-yoga/kundalini-yoga-yb/

    It is not related to Sikhism in any way shape or form, 3HO have taken it to their bossom, but then they also bow before a statue of Baba Sri Chand too, each to his own....

    The Guru that I believe in, is only interested in your mind thinking and acting within Hukam. He does not need any money, he does not need an army of Yoga instructors, Sikh philosophy stands on its own, it does need the help of ritualistic Vedic practices to support it.
     
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    #18 Harry Haller, Jul 17, 2012
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2012
  20. linzer

    linzer Mexico
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    The type of yoga isn't even vedic. He made his exercises up as he went " do this" (Imagine raising your arms at a 45 degree angle) Keep doing this for eleven minutes now repeat Har Har Har." Your sitmulating your whatzit gland" I joke not the classes are like this.
    Yogi Bhajan tried to give legitamacy to his invented form of yoga by attributing it to the Sikh Gurus, calling it the "golden chain".This is one of the many thing that I find offensive about thier practice. You can call it what ever you want just don't call it Sikh.
     
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  21. Kanwaljit Singh

    Kanwaljit Singh India
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