Nirguna, Sarguna: A Debate

Gurfateh
ਸੂਰਜ, ਚੰਦ, ਤੀਰਥ, ਸਤਗੁਰ, ਸਮੁੰਦਰ, ਦਰਿਆ, ਆਦਿ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਤਾਂ ਬਾਹਰਲੇ ਨੇ ਪਰ ਅਸੀਂ ਅੰਦਰਲੇ ਅਰਥ ਹੀ
ਲਵਾਂਗੇ ਕਿਓਂਕਿ ਬਾਹਰਲੇ ਅਰਥ ਕੱਚੇ ਤੇ ਅੰਦਰਲੇ ਅਰਥ ਪੱਕੇ (ਨਿਰਾਕਾਰੀ) ਹੁੰਦੇ ਹਨ !
Sun, moon, pilgrimage center, true guide, sea, river etc are the outer words. But we will take the internal meanings as outer meanings are weak and inner are strong(formless Godly)!
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/27118-nirguna-sarguna-a-debate.html
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=27118

So das only wanted to prove by quotes above that negtive acts of Mahakal meaing great death ie eaten by separation so staying in ego, is also nothing else but attribute of Akal. We do not have Satan in Sikhism as God is all visible.So qoutes were given.

As it is rule that English Translation is needed but there could always be a chance to understand newer meaning once we keep on reading Shri Guru Granth Sahib again and again.

 
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Vijaydeep, what is the motive for post # 22? How is it related? Are your trying to say that God has ego problems? What are you trying to say? Please make it clear and how are quotes posted related to Mahakaal?
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=27118
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=27118

As for killing and reviving. Guru's shabad kills manmat and revives God's name in heart. That is the maarai raakhai from Prabhu. Not physical killing or physical dying.

There is no difference between jums and Mahakaal. Both harras the soul. Jums are none other than 5 chor. Is God 5 chor or free from 5 chors? God is free from 5 chors. Is God maayaa or is God nirlayp from maayaa? God is also nirpayp from maayaa. Therefore, no chance that Mahakaal means God or is attribute of God.

Gurfateh
there no one in existence other then God.

Is not God omnipotent ?
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=27118

Poster was warned about tuks in isolation. Deleted.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=27118

So going for pure form of God or for mammon form of God, is in control of God. We should not have reservation to salute the God, when same is in mammon form.

Forgive das ifor any mistake.

ਆਪੇ ਕਵਲਾ ਕੰਤੁ ਆਪਿ ॥

That means God Himself is the master of Lakshmee. It doesn't mean God is lakshmee. Please don't use translations promoting maayaa. Lakhmee is part of 5 tat. Gurbani says:

ਰੂਪੁ ਨ ਰੇਖ ਨ ਪੰਚ ਤਤ ਠਾਕੁਰ ਅਬਿਨਾਸ ॥ ੨॥ {ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਜੀ, ਪੰਨਾ ੮੧੬}
Roop Na Raikh Na Punch Tutt Takhur Abenaas ||2|| {Page 816 of Guru Granth Sahib Ji}
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=27118
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=27118
God has no physical appearance or drawings and is not made from five elements; Master (God) is perpetual. 2.

How are other quotes related to the topic though?

Gurfateh
ਰੂਪੁ ਨ ਰੇਖ ਨ ਪੰਚ ਤਤ ਠਾਕੁਰ ਅਬਿਨਾਸ ॥ ੨॥ {ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਜੀ, ਪੰਨਾ ੮੧੬}
Roop Na Raikh Na Punch Tutt Takhur Abenaas ||2|| {Page 816 of Guru Granth Sahib Ji}
God has no physical appearance or drawings and is not made from five elements; Master (God) is perpetual. 2.

This means that God is not the physical reality or Truth.
Kindly note that this is towards non of our SPN members but people who have no faith in God say that.

ਬਿਲਾਵਲੁ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥
बिलावलु महला ५ ॥
Bilāval mėhlā 5.
Bilaaval, Fifth Mehl:

ਖੋਜਤ ਖੋਜਤ ਮੈ ਫਿਰਾ ਖੋਜਉ ਬਨ ਥਾਨ ॥
खोजत खोजत मै फिरा खोजउ बन थान ॥
Kẖojaṯ kẖojaṯ mai firā kẖoja▫o ban thān.
Searching, searching, I wander around searching, in the woods and other places.

ਅਛਲ ਅਛੇਦ ਅਭੇਦ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਐਸੇ ਭਗਵਾਨ ॥੧॥
अछल अछेद अभेद प्रभ ऐसे भगवान ॥१॥
Acẖẖal acẖẖeḏ abẖeḏ parabẖ aise bẖagvān. ||1||
He is undeceivable, imperishable, inscrutable; such is my Lord God. ||1||

ਕਬ ਦੇਖਉ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਆਪਨਾ ਆਤਮ ਕੈ ਰੰਗਿ ॥
कब देखउ प्रभु आपना आतम कै रंगि ॥
Kab ḏekẖ▫a▫u parabẖ āpnā āṯam kai rang.
When shall I behold my God, and delight my soul?

ਜਾਗਨ ਤੇ ਸੁਪਨਾ ਭਲਾ ਬਸੀਐ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਸੰਗਿ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
जागन ते सुपना भला बसीऐ प्रभ संगि ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Jāgan ṯe supnā bẖalā basī▫ai parabẖ sang. ||1|| rahā▫o.
Even better than being awake, is the dream in which I dwell with God. ||1||Pause||

ਬਰਨ ਆਸ੍ਰਮ ਸਾਸਤ੍ਰ ਸੁਨਉ ਦਰਸਨ ਕੀ ਪਿਆਸ ॥
बरन आस्रम सासत्र सुनउ दरसन की पिआस ॥
Baran āsram sāsṯar sun▫o ḏarsan kī pi▫ās.
Listening to the Shaastras teaching about the four social classes and the four stages of life, I grow thirsty for the Blessed Vision of the Lord.

ਰੂਪੁ ਨ ਰੇਖ ਨ ਪੰਚ ਤਤ ਠਾਕੁਰ ਅਬਿਨਾਸ ॥੨॥
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=27118
रूपु न रेख न पंच तत ठाकुर अबिनास ॥२॥
Rūp na rekẖ na pancẖ ṯaṯ ṯẖākur abinās. ||2||
He has no form or outline, and He is not made of the five elements; our Lord and Master is imperishable. ||2||

ਓਹੁ ਸਰੂਪੁ ਸੰਤਨ ਕਹਹਿ ਵਿਰਲੇ ਜੋਗੀਸੁਰ ॥
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=27118
ओहु सरूपु संतन कहहि विरले जोगीसुर ॥
Oh sarūp sanṯan kahėh virle jogīsur.
How rare are those Saints and great Yogis, who describe the beautiful form of the Lord.

ਕਰਿ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਜਾ ਕਉ ਮਿਲੇ ਧਨਿ ਧਨਿ ਤੇ ਈਸੁਰ ॥੩॥
करि किरपा जा कउ मिले धनि धनि ते ईसुर ॥३॥
Kar kirpā jā ka▫o mile ḏẖan ḏẖan ṯe īsur. ||3||
Blessed, blessed are they, whom the Lord meets in His Mercy. ||3||

ਸੋ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਸੋ ਬਾਹਰੇ ਬਿਨਸੇ ਤਹ ਭਰਮਾ ॥
सो अंतरि सो बाहरे बिनसे तह भरमा ॥
So anṯar so bāhre binse ṯah bẖarmā.
They know that He is deep within, and outside as well; their doubts are dispelled.

ਨਾਨਕ ਤਿਸੁ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਭੇਟਿਆ ਜਾ ਕੇ ਪੂਰਨ ਕਰਮਾ ॥੪॥੩੧॥੬੧॥
नानक तिसु प्रभु भेटिआ जा के पूरन करमा ॥४॥३१॥६१॥
Nānak ṯis parabẖ bẖeti▫ā jā ke pūran karmā. ||4||31||61||
O Nanak, God meets those, whose karma is perfect. ||4||31||61|| Bro why do you not give this fact that who is in is outside also.

As all forms are manifestations of God, so God is not restricted to a particular form.

As all matters are manifestation of God, Five Elements too are manifestation of God.

So in Five Elements and out of them too, God exists.

Should das give qoutes from Shri Guru Granth sahib Ji, where God is told to be in Water, Earth, Sky etc. ?

Tuks in isolation deleted. Laslty why term sel/Aap is repeated ?in Self Mammon
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=27118
,smaster self.Then in your interpetation we would have found aap coming only once

Term Aap is repeated to give extra importance to aap.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=27118
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=27118

Pervading somewhere is separate from being those things. E.g. We can have air in a room but air isn't room. Same way, God is pervading everywhere but God isn't water or mountain or choohaa or billi or daddoo or whatever. If we go the route you are going, Sikhs will one day be praying to billlis and choohas and daddos and snakes, etc. like Hindus.

Based on your philosophy, tom. Sikhs will be reading:

Namo Choohaa, Namo Boohaa.
Namo Billi, Namo Delhi.
Namo Haathi, Namo Paathi.
Namo Pahari, Namo Kuhaari.
Namo Raajaa, No Vaajaa.

Gurfateh

Dear Brother,

We only know about Akal if Akal wants us to know. We do not have to pray as such as per Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji too.

Tuks in isolation deleted.

I already answered above query of yours. Being is something doesn't mean you are something. I am sitting inside my room, I am not room.

A flower has fragrance but fragrance isn't flower.

Same way, God is everywhere but creation isn't God. Gurbani says that creation is creation of God.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=27118

God is in trees but trees aren't God. You cut down trees but can God be cut? Why not? Because God is beyond the form but is present everywhere. Trees, etc. are all forms created by God. They aren't the ultimate truth. They are bound to destruction. God is not bound to destruction. That is why God is beyond the five elements. This is where you are failing to understand the Gurmat concept and keep linking back to old faith.