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Nirguna, Sarguna: A Debate

Discussion in 'Sikh Sikhi Sikhism' started by vijaydeep Singh, Oct 18, 2009.

  1. vijaydeep Singh

    vijaydeep Singh
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    Gurfateh
    ਸੂਰਜ, ਚੰਦ, ਤੀਰਥ, ਸਤਗੁਰ, ਸਮੁੰਦਰ, ਦਰਿਆ, ਆਦਿ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਤਾਂ ਬਾਹਰਲੇ ਨੇ ਪਰ ਅਸੀਂ ਅੰਦਰਲੇ ਅਰਥ ਹੀ
    ਲਵਾਂਗੇ ਕਿਓਂਕਿ ਬਾਹਰਲੇ ਅਰਥ ਕੱਚੇ ਤੇ ਅੰਦਰਲੇ ਅਰਥ ਪੱਕੇ (ਨਿਰਾਕਾਰੀ) ਹੁੰਦੇ ਹਨ !
    Sun, moon, pilgrimage center, true guide, sea, river etc are the outer words. But we will take the internal meanings as outer meanings are weak and inner are strong(formless Godly)!

    So das only wanted to prove by quotes above that negtive acts of Mahakal meaing great death ie eaten by separation so staying in ego, is also nothing else but attribute of Akal. We do not have Satan in Sikhism as God is all visible.So qoutes were given.

    As it is rule that English Translation is needed but there could always be a chance to understand newer meaning once we keep on reading Shri Guru Granth Sahib again and again.
     
  2. The Khalsa Fauj

    The Khalsa Fauj
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    Vijaydeep, what is the motive for post # 22? How is it related? Are your trying to say that God has ego problems? What are you trying to say? Please make it clear and how are quotes posted related to Mahakaal?

    As for killing and reviving. Guru's shabad kills manmat and revives God's name in heart. That is the maarai raakhai from Prabhu. Not physical killing or physical dying.

    There is no difference between jums and Mahakaal. Both harras the soul. Jums are none other than 5 chor. Is God 5 chor or free from 5 chors? God is free from 5 chors. Is God maayaa or is God nirlayp from maayaa? God is also nirpayp from maayaa. Therefore, no chance that Mahakaal means God or is attribute of God.
     
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  3. vijaydeep Singh

    vijaydeep Singh
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    Re: ਦਸਮਗ੍ਰੰਥ 1:

    Gurfateh
    there no one in existence other then God.

    Is not God omnipotent ?

    Poster was warned about tuks in isolation. Deleted.
    [SIZE=-1]
    [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]
    So going for pure form of God or for mammon form of God, is in control of God. We should not have reservation to salute the God, when same is in mammon form.

    Forgive das ifor any mistake.
    [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]
    [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]
    [/SIZE]
     
  4. The Khalsa Fauj

    The Khalsa Fauj
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    Re: ਦਸਮਗ੍ਰੰਥ 1:

    ਆਪੇ ਕਵਲਾ ਕੰਤੁ ਆਪਿ ॥

    That means God Himself is the master of Lakshmee. It doesn't mean God is lakshmee. Please don't use translations promoting maayaa. Lakhmee is part of 5 tat. Gurbani says:

    ਰੂਪੁ ਨ ਰੇਖ ਨ ਪੰਚ ਤਤ ਠਾਕੁਰ ਅਬਿਨਾਸ ॥ ੨॥ {ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਜੀ, ਪੰਨਾ ੮੧੬}
    Roop Na Raikh Na Punch Tutt Takhur Abenaas ||2|| {Page 816 of Guru Granth Sahib Ji}
    God has no physical appearance or drawings and is not made from five elements; Master (God) is perpetual. 2.

    How are other quotes related to the topic though?
     
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  5. vijaydeep Singh

    vijaydeep Singh
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    Re: ਦਸਮਗ੍ਰੰਥ 1:

    Gurfateh
    ਰੂਪੁ ਨ ਰੇਖ ਨ ਪੰਚ ਤਤ ਠਾਕੁਰ ਅਬਿਨਾਸ ॥ ੨॥ {ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਜੀ, ਪੰਨਾ ੮੧੬}
    Roop Na Raikh Na Punch Tutt Takhur Abenaas ||2|| {Page 816 of Guru Granth Sahib Ji}
    God has no physical appearance or drawings and is not made from five elements; Master (God) is perpetual. 2.

    This means that God is not the physical reality or Truth.
    Kindly note that this is towards non of our SPN members but people who have no faith in God say that.

    ਬਿਲਾਵਲੁ ਮਹਲਾ
    बिलावलु महला ५ ॥
    Bilāval mėhlā 5.
    Bilaaval, Fifth Mehl:

    ਖੋਜਤ ਖੋਜਤ ਮੈ ਫਿਰਾ ਖੋਜਉ ਬਨ ਥਾਨ
    खोजत खोजत मै फिरा खोजउ बन थान ॥
    Kẖojaṯ kẖojaṯ mai firā kẖoja▫o ban thān.
    Searching, searching, I wander around searching, in the woods and other places.

    ਅਛਲ ਅਛੇਦ ਅਭੇਦ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਐਸੇ ਭਗਵਾਨ ॥੧॥
    अछल अछेद अभेद प्रभ ऐसे भगवान ॥१॥
    Acẖẖal acẖẖeḏ abẖeḏ parabẖ aise bẖagvān. ||1||
    He is undeceivable, imperishable, inscrutable; such is my Lord God. ||1||

    ਕਬ ਦੇਖਉ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਆਪਨਾ ਆਤਮ ਕੈ ਰੰਗਿ
    कब देखउ प्रभु आपना आतम कै रंगि ॥
    Kab ḏekẖ▫a▫u parabẖ āpnā āṯam kai rang.
    When shall I behold my God, and delight my soul?

    ਜਾਗਨ ਤੇ ਸੁਪਨਾ ਭਲਾ ਬਸੀਐ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਸੰਗਿ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ
    जागन ते सुपना भला बसीऐ प्रभ संगि ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
    Jāgan ṯe supnā bẖalā basī▫ai parabẖ sang. ||1|| rahā▫o.
    Even better than being awake, is the dream in which I dwell with God. ||1||Pause||

    ਬਰਨ ਆਸ੍ਰਮ ਸਾਸਤ੍ਰ ਸੁਨਉ ਦਰਸਨ ਕੀ ਪਿਆਸ
    बरन आस्रम सासत्र सुनउ दरसन की पिआस ॥
    Baran āsram sāsṯar sun▫o ḏarsan kī pi▫ās.
    Listening to the Shaastras teaching about the four social classes and the four stages of life, I grow thirsty for the Blessed Vision of the Lord.

    ਰੂਪੁ ਰੇਖ ਪੰਚ ਤਤ ਠਾਕੁਰ ਅਬਿਨਾਸ ॥੨॥
    रूपु न रेख न पंच तत ठाकुर अबिनास ॥२॥
    Rūp na rekẖ na pancẖ ṯaṯ ṯẖākur abinās. ||2||
    He has no form or outline, and He is not made of the five elements; our Lord and Master is imperishable. ||2||

    ਓਹੁ ਸਰੂਪੁ ਸੰਤਨ ਕਹਹਿ ਵਿਰਲੇ ਜੋਗੀਸੁਰ
    ओहु सरूपु संतन कहहि विरले जोगीसुर ॥
    Oh sarūp sanṯan kahėh virle jogīsur.
    How rare are those Saints and great Yogis, who describe the beautiful form of the Lord.

    ਕਰਿ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਜਾ ਕਉ ਮਿਲੇ ਧਨਿ ਧਨਿ ਤੇ ਈਸੁਰ ॥੩॥
    करि किरपा जा कउ मिले धनि धनि ते ईसुर ॥३॥
    Kar kirpā jā ka▫o mile ḏẖan ḏẖan ṯe īsur. ||3||
    Blessed, blessed are they, whom the Lord meets in His Mercy. ||3||

    ਸੋ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਸੋ ਬਾਹਰੇ ਬਿਨਸੇ ਤਹ ਭਰਮਾ
    सो अंतरि सो बाहरे बिनसे तह भरमा ॥
    So anṯar so bāhre binse ṯah bẖarmā.
    They know that He is deep within, and outside as well; their doubts are dispelled.

    ਨਾਨਕ ਤਿਸੁ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਭੇਟਿਆ ਜਾ ਕੇ ਪੂਰਨ ਕਰਮਾ ॥੪॥੩੧॥੬੧॥
    नानक तिसु प्रभु भेटिआ जा के पूरन करमा ॥४॥३१॥६१॥
    Nānak ṯis parabẖ bẖeti▫ā jā ke pūran karmā. ||4||31||61||
    O Nanak, God meets those, whose karma is perfect. ||4||31||61|| Bro why do you not give this fact that who is in is outside also.

    As all forms are manifestations of God, so God is not restricted to a particular form.

    As all matters are manifestation of God, Five Elements too are manifestation of God.

    So in Five Elements and out of them too, God exists.

    Should das give qoutes from Shri Guru Granth sahib Ji, where God is told to be in Water, Earth, Sky etc. ?
     
    #5 vijaydeep Singh, Oct 18, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 5, 2016
  6. vijaydeep Singh

    vijaydeep Singh
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    Re: ਦਸਮਗ੍ਰੰਥ 1:

    Tuks in isolation deleted.[SIZE=-1] Laslty why term sel/Aap is repeated ?in Self Mammon
    ,smaster self.Then in your interpetation we would have found aap coming only once
    [/SIZE]
     
  7. The Khalsa Fauj

    The Khalsa Fauj
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    Re: ਦਸਮਗ੍ਰੰਥ 1:

    Term Aap is repeated to give extra importance to aap.

    Pervading somewhere is separate from being those things. E.g. We can have air in a room but air isn't room. Same way, God is pervading everywhere but God isn't water or mountain or choohaa or billi or daddoo or whatever. If we go the route you are going, Sikhs will one day be praying to billlis and choohas and daddos and snakes, etc. like Hindus.

    Based on your philosophy, tom. Sikhs will be reading:

    Namo Choohaa, Namo Boohaa.
    Namo Billi, Namo Delhi.
    Namo Haathi, Namo Paathi.
    Namo Pahari, Namo Kuhaari.
    Namo Raajaa, No Vaajaa.
     
  8. vijaydeep Singh

    vijaydeep Singh
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    Re: ਦਸਮਗ੍ਰੰਥ 1:

    Gurfateh

    Dear Brother,

    We only know about Akal if Akal wants us to know. We do not have to pray as such as per Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji too.
    [SIZE=-1]
    Tuks in isolation deleted.

    [/SIZE]
     
    #8 vijaydeep Singh, Oct 18, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 5, 2016
  9. The Khalsa Fauj

    The Khalsa Fauj
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    Re: ਦਸਮਗ੍ਰੰਥ 1:

    I already answered above query of yours. Being is something doesn't mean you are something. I am sitting inside my room, I am not room.

    A flower has fragrance but fragrance isn't flower.

    Same way, God is everywhere but creation isn't God. Gurbani says that creation is creation of God.

    God is in trees but trees aren't God. You cut down trees but can God be cut? Why not? Because God is beyond the form but is present everywhere. Trees, etc. are all forms created by God. They aren't the ultimate truth. They are bound to destruction. God is not bound to destruction. That is why God is beyond the five elements. This is where you are failing to understand the Gurmat concept and keep linking back to old faith.
     
  10. vijaydeep Singh

    vijaydeep Singh
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    Re: ਦਸਮਗ੍ਰੰਥ 1:

    Gurfateh
    Dear Brother,

    All forms are composed of God, they change form only at the will of God.

    Page 1043, Line 15
    ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦੀ ਸਭੁ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਪਛਾਨਿਆ ॥
    गुर सबदी सभु ब्रहमु पछानिआ ॥
    Gur sabḏī sabẖ barahm pacẖẖāni▫ā.
    Through the Guru's Shabad, I have realized that all is God.
    Guru Nanak Dev - [SIZE=-1]view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

    We do not do anything.

    When God wants manifestation of God as men cuts another manifestation as tree which appear to us as cut, while God is in Axe, God is in Tree and God is vacuum after tree is cut.
    [/SIZE]ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ ਮਹਲਾ ਘਰੁ ਦੂਜਾ
    सिरीरागु महला १ घरु दूजा २ ॥
    Sirīrāg mėhlā 1 gẖar ḏūjā 2.
    Siree Raag, First Mehl, Second House:

    ਆਪੇ ਰਸੀਆ ਆਪਿ ਰਸੁ ਆਪੇ ਰਾਵਣਹਾਰੁ
    आपे रसीआ आपि रसु आपे रावणहारु ॥
    Āpe rasī▫ā āp ras āpe ravaṇhār.
    He Himself is the Enjoyer, and He Himself is the Enjoyment. He Himself is the Ravisher of all.

    ਆਪੇ ਹੋਵੈ ਚੋਲੜਾ ਆਪੇ ਸੇਜ ਭਤਾਰੁ ॥੧॥
    आपे होवै चोलड़ा आपे सेज भतारु ॥१॥
    Āpe hovai cẖolṛā āpe sej bẖaṯār. ||1||
    He Himself is the Bride in her dress, He Himself is the Bridegroom on the bed. ||1||

    ਰੰਗਿ ਰਤਾ ਮੇਰਾ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਰਵਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਭਰਪੂਰਿ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ
    रंगि रता मेरा साहिबु रवि रहिआ भरपूरि ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
    Rang raṯā merā sāhib rav rahi▫ā bẖarpūr. ||1|| rahā▫o.
    My Lord and Master is imbued with love; He is totally permeating and pervading all. ||1||Pause||

    ਆਪੇ ਮਾਛੀ ਮਛੁਲੀ ਆਪੇ ਪਾਣੀ ਜਾਲੁ
    आपे माछी मछुली आपे पाणी जालु ॥
    Āpe mācẖẖī macẖẖulī āpe pāṇī jāl.
    He Himself is the fisherman and the fish; He Himself is the water and the net.

    ਆਪੇ ਜਾਲ ਮਣਕੜਾ ਆਪੇ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਲਾਲੁ ॥੨॥
    आपे जाल मणकड़ा आपे अंदरि लालु ॥२॥
    Āpe jāl maṇkaṛā āpe anḏar lāl. ||2||
    He Himself is the sinker, and He Himself is the bait. ||2||

    ਆਪੇ ਬਹੁ ਬਿਧਿ ਰੰਗੁਲਾ ਸਖੀਏ ਮੇਰਾ ਲਾਲੁ
    आपे बहु बिधि रंगुला सखीए मेरा लालु ॥
    Āpe baho biḏẖ rangulā sakẖī▫e merā lāl.
    He Himself loves in so many ways. O sister soul-brides, He is my Beloved.

    ਨਿਤ ਰਵੈ ਸੋਹਾਗਣੀ ਦੇਖੁ ਹਮਾਰਾ ਹਾਲੁ ॥੩॥
    नित रवै सोहागणी देखु हमारा हालु ॥३॥
    Niṯ ravai sohāgaṇī ḏekẖ hamārā hāl. ||3||
    He continually ravishes and enjoys the happy soul-brides; just look at the plight I am in without Him! ||3||

    ਪ੍ਰਣਵੈ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਬੇਨਤੀ ਤੂ ਸਰਵਰੁ ਤੂ ਹੰਸੁ
    प्रणवै नानकु बेनती तू सरवरु तू हंसु ॥
    Paraṇvai Nānak benṯī ṯū sarvar ṯū hans.
    Prays Nanak, please hear my prayer: You are the pool, and You are the soul-swan.

    ਕਉਲੁ ਤੂ ਹੈ ਕਵੀਆ ਤੂ ਹੈ ਆਪੇ ਵੇਖਿ ਵਿਗਸੁ ॥੪॥੨੫॥
    कउलु तू है कवीआ तू है आपे वेखि विगसु ॥४॥२५॥
    Ka▫ul ṯū hai kavī▫ā ṯū hai āpe vekẖ vigas. ||4||25||
    You are the lotus flower of the day and You are the water-lily of the night. You Yourself behold them, and blossom forth in bliss. ||4||25||
     
    #10 vijaydeep Singh, Oct 18, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 5, 2016
  11. The Khalsa Fauj

    The Khalsa Fauj
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    Above Shabad is a bit long, proper arths will be done in future. Gurbani doesn't contradict itself from place to place. Thanks for posting that shabad so proper translation could be created.

    Bring more shabads like that so those could also be translated.
     
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  12. vijaydeep Singh

    vijaydeep Singh
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    Gurfateh

    Brother when some one say during night, this is night and during day, it is day. It may not mean contradiction.

    Gurbani caters people from diverse background. So in each specific need, there is a specific answer/fullfilment.
     
  13. The Khalsa Fauj

    The Khalsa Fauj
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    Core philosopies of gurmat remain same.
     
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  14. vijaydeep Singh

    vijaydeep Singh
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    Gurfateh
    Agreed sir but ways are changed for preaching to the heterogeneous world.
     
  15. The Khalsa Fauj

    The Khalsa Fauj
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    If you agree then why are you debating? Core philosophy of Gurmat is Ika Baani Ik Gur Ikko Shabad Veechar.
     
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  16. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    Sawa lakh se EK larraoan
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    And Bani IK, Gur Ikko, Ikko Shabad Vichaar remians the same whether its day, night, evening, shaam, sikhar dupehreh, adhee raat, winter, autumn, summer, or spring...even in Space where there are no seasons, days and nights..Gurmatt Core remains the same.Unchanging..Consistent..timeless..forever ..
     
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  17. Astroboy

    Astroboy Malaysia
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    ਨਾਮ ਤੇਰੇ ਕੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਲਗਾਈ (Previously namjap)
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    Vijaydeep quotes,
    Jab āpan āp āp pārbarahm.
    When the Supreme Lord Himself was Himself All-in-all,

    Ŧab moh kahā kis hovaṯ bẖaram.
    then where was emotional attachment, and who had doubts?
     
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  18. Astroboy

    Astroboy Malaysia
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    ਨਾਮ ਤੇਰੇ ਕੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਲਗਾਈ (Previously namjap)
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    Vijaydeep
    Yes He is.

    Sarab kala samrath prabh pooray gurdev (rehao) Ang 811 Line 5 Bilawal M.5
    (God is omnipotent, possessing all powers; He is obtained thru the Perfect Divine Guru)

    Namo Sarab Gianang, Namo Sarab Taanang (Jaap Sahib)
    (I bow to you the All-Knowing (omniscient); the Omnipotent (All Powerful) I bow to you.

    Sarab Layak, Sarab Ghaik, Sarab ko Pritpaar (Jaap Sahib)
    [He can do everything (Omnipotent) and is the sustainer of everything.
     
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  19. Astroboy

    Astroboy Malaysia
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    I was once told that a Sai Baba Centre has photographs of all the Spiritual Masters from all faiths and even Guru Nanak's photo was hung. And all the photos without exception had vibhuti (ash) on the forehead.

    RSS has Guru Nanak's photo with OM sign attached to it.

    Vijaydeep Singh Ji,

    There are reasons why we object to these kind of things. You see, to assure our innocent kids don't get confused and think everything is eventually God so therefore OM equals EK OANGKAR, we need to show them the differences until they are old enough to make rational decisions.

    As you know that real devotion is only 5% or even less, the rest is showmanship which will eventually mislead and victimize. How many times have we been cheated by fake 'Sants' who not only rob us of money and properties but also take our village women for their pleasures. So can we then say that we should allow these things to happen to us?

    Kindly give your comments.


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  20. Astroboy

    Astroboy Malaysia
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    ਨਾਮ ਤੇਰੇ ਕੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਲਗਾਈ (Previously namjap)
    Writer SPNer Contributor

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    Aklee Sahib Sewaiye = Use your akal (brains/wisdom) to serve God/Guru. Ang 1245

    Everything is in his Hukam. but as infants, milk is provided automatically. As we grow up as children. we ask and it is given. As we grow older, we are told to find a job and stand on out own feet. After that, we are still following his Hukam as the Lions do. All is in His Hukam but the rules keep changing. We have to use our Buddhi to avoid being hurt.
     
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