Guru Nanak in Uganda, Africa

IN Gurbani and in Gurmatt...it is amply clear that the "SANT" is a word interchangeable with GURU/SAADH/SATGURU....and is mostly meant for either the Ten Gurus or The Creator Waheguru. Guru Arjun ji uses the word SANT and GURU in reference to Guru Ramdass Ji.."BHAAG HOA GUR-SANT milayah...this one TUK alone should give us the most clear signal as to what a SANT has to be...the EQUAL of GURU RAMDASS JI !! Why does Guru Ji use the TWO words as ONE...to dispell doubts later becasue these words are used in Gurbani frequently.
2. Second Marker/Warning sign for us to stop indiscrimiante use of these words for ORDINARY MORTALS..are the Tuks about...."Rahio SANT me toll..SAADH BAHUTEREH DITTHHEY !! By Bhagat Kabir Ji...and the Absolutley high standards set for "SANT" as is described in Gurbani at many places. NO "MORTAL" can pass this TEST...and by chance IF there is ONE in a MILLION as Bhagat Kabir Ji ahs already told us..then that "sant" will be a HIDDEN ONE..and not parading around the world in Jathas and Limousines with large groups fo dholki cheenehs banging and people matha teking to him and giving gifts. SUCH can ONLY be FRAUDS..the SSADHS that..Bhauhtereh ditthey !! A highly illuminated soul such as Bhagat Kabir Ji the Shiromani SANT/BHAGAT with such a huge amount of GURBANI in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji..is declaring so openly that HE FAILED TO SEE a SINGLE SANT and only saw hordes of SAADHS/THUGGHS ..IH Sant na akheyean..benaras ke THUGGH !! Now our "standards" have fallen so LOW..that we not only have HORDES of....Sants..and Baba Jis and Maharajs..we have GURUS..and SATGURUS !!!..I ma just waiting for the Day when a "WAHEGURU JI" also makes His appearance !! I am SURE that UNLIKE Bhagat Kabir Ji..we will be instantly able to recognise this "Waheguru" as easily as we have seen all those hundred thousand SANTS !!

Here is an article form SikhChic..giving a comparative study of the word "sant" and "saint" as is used in English....You will NOTICE that among the worlds religions...only "Catholics" have saints....Muslims, christians, buddhists etc have no such persons. Even the Catholics have no LIVING SAINTS...unlike us...

READ ON:

sikhchic.com

by MANJYOT KAUR & I.J. SINGH

"When the saints go marching in ..." says a popular Christian hymn,
most often heard nowadays as a quintessential Dixieland jazz tune.

But how does one define a saint? What makes a saint? And why be one
even if you can?

We know that Roman Catholics have a finely honed, infinitely nuanced
mechanism for making one - the long, drawn-out process of
canonization, as it is called. It has been used only since the 10th
century; for hundreds of years prior, starting with the first martyrs
of the early Church, saints were chosen by public acclaim.

The rules of the Vatican, which underwent sweeping changes in 1983 by
Pope John Paul II, require that a candidate has to be dead at least
five years before the process is initiated and there are a minimum of
two credible, verifiable miracles (one for beatification and one for
canonization) attributed to the person. (However, in the case of a
martyr, a miracle is not required for beatification.) And there is
the inexhaustible amount of paperwork on the details of the person's life.

Sometimes, the progression can be accelerated. For instance, Mother
Teresa died in 1997; the Pope allowed the process to start early. She
was beatified in 2003; canonization to sainthood awaits the
confirmation of the second miracle.

Our purpose today is not to dissect the Roman Catholic tradition, but
to let this explanation of it lead us into a consideration of the
idea in Sikh doctrine, teaching and practice.

Clearly the English word "saint" and the Punjabi appellation "sant"
are more than kissing cousins. Their linguistic roots may not be
entirely identical, however.

"Saint" is derived from the Latin sanctus (holy, consecrated) and
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-gurus/29587-guru-nanak-in-uganda-africa.html
sancire (to consecrate). Originally an adjective prefixed to the name
of a canonized person, by 1300 or thereabouts, it came to be regarded
as a noun.

"Sant" may be a modified form of sat which can simply mean "true,"
but can also be translated as "lasting," "real," and "venerable." Sat
- or satya - has commonly been used since Vedic times to represent
the Ever-existent Unchanging Reality, or the Self-existent Universal
Spirit, that is, Brahma or God. When parsing roots of words, keep in
mind that Sanskrit may be the root of the linguistic tree that gave
us the Romance languages, which sprang from Latin.

The term sant itself came into vogue later, occurring in the ancient
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=29587
Pali literature of Buddhism in the sense of "tranquil," "true" or
"wise." From Pali, it resurfaced centuries later when the Bhakti
movement, with its distinct Sant tradition, arose. The Sant-Bhaktas
were opposed to Brahmanical ritualism, idol-worship and casteism.
They valued a "love relationship" between an individual and the
Unborn, Formless, Nirguna Divine entity. Through the Bhakti movement,
the term passed into the Sikh tradition.

Unlike the English term, which has a formal connotation in a Western
religious framework, "sant" is not always used in a formal way, but
in a more subjective sense. To the average person today, it might
convey the idea of a person possessing immense sagacity and
judiciousness, with a profound understanding of Dharam.

Full article:
http://www.sikhchic.com/article-detail.php?id=1368

 
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__________________
We hear with our ears but we listen with our minds.
Hearing the sound of a mantra is one thing - listening to it is another !

Tejwant Singh ji excellent points. You are right enlightened souls are always in vigaas (bliss) and are unpreturbed by nindya - in fact they invite it (see Kabir Ji's Bani). I have always wanted to research into nindya and how it affects (or not) 'saints' and how it affects mere mortals like us when it is personally aimed at us or at someone we admire. I too learn from your posts which are objective and are not aimed at belittling or ridiculing anyone, which is more than I can say for some contributors on internet sites.

It is very late here and I must log off and get some sleep before work tommorow.

Regards

'Arshi'

Arshi ji,

Guru fateh.

You write:

Pardon my ignorance, if the message is distorted because of the incorrect translation then how can it help convey the basic message? Can you please shed some light on this?

I am not any intellectual nor do I intend or pretend to be. I am just a Sikh, a learner, a student, a seeker and when the message is distorted, it is my duty to say that out and loud.

I agree with you. We should give credit to all who have given their best in this valiant effort but also should not hesitate to point out when they are misleading with their literal translations which could be unintentional but the consequences are dire because people get the wrong message which does not do any justice to the true message of our Gurus.

I have received you PM. Thanks for that and I requested you that this interaction should be where it belongs, that is in the forum, not in private. I hope you will agree with me on that.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh

Gyani ji,

Guru fateh.

Thanks for posting this interesting article which proves the point how literal translations can be misleading.

As, I understand Gurbani, words like Sant, Brahamgyani and other words like this of praise that show qualities of a person are used as adjectives, not as nouns or titles. Adjectives require continuous actions from those people, otherwise that quality ceases to exist.

In other words, a spring of water remains a spring provided it keeps on sprouting water. The moment it ceases, it becomes nothing but one more hole in the ground.

As you know very well, our Gurus did not give themselves any titles. Just numbers. We, the followers address them as Gurus. So, we should try to grasp the message given by our Gurus keeping this in mind, which is vital.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh

Randip ji

You comments are quite damaging/harsh towards Puran Singh Ji Dhanjal. It would be prudent to post some proof or an online reference to support your comments.

Thank you, This is important.

Warm regards

Aman Singh

Randip Ji, Gurfateh.

I think people change...and we should give them the benefit of the doubt (or keep the past where it belongs..IF a change for the better has taken place ).As a matter of interest the present Guru of the Radha Soamis was a GHONA MONA living in Australia..on becoming a GURU he donned the white dastaar and grew his beard long in keeping with the "guru" image !! Now on the surface that looks liek a change for the "better"...but for me personally its a "character role"...a change in appearance to suit the new role...some evidence has to be forthcoming if a genuine change has taken place...or NOT ??

Gyani ji,

Guru Fateh.

I agree with you. Life gives us the opportunity to change and a Sikh, as the name itself indicates has more chances to change than anyone else because of the tools given to us in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only Guru which challenges us to become better on each time.

I used to be a boozer too till 1988 and not ashamed to admit it either. It is commendable if Puran Singh ji left his bad habits and had the total metamorphosis within which helped him change his life and of many others. The proof is in the organisation which seems very big.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=29587

I think Arshi ji can help me understand this group a bit more as he is familiar with them and according to him, his words,"Although I am not a member of GNNSJ I do know many, including several members who many moons ago regarded me as a role model in a minor way, who are regular visitors to the Soho Road Gurdwara in Birmingham."

Arshi ji,

1.Are people of this Jatha vegetarians and always been like that?

2.Did they always wear white or had different colours before? And if they did then any idea why changed into all white?

3. What is the women's role in the Jatha?

The reason I am asking this is because I did not see any women in the pictures from Israel. Secondly I did see some of them at the funeral of Pope John Paul II and there were no women along with them either.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=29587

What is their main goal and how do they realise that?

I hope you are able to respond to my above queries and please do not hesitate to add anything else that you may deem important about this Jatha.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh

Tejwant Singh ji

Gurfateh

Good questions. However, in answering them I have to very careful that I do not misquote anything or say something which may not be totally accurate. Therefore, I will limit my remarks to what I can say with confidence. On this instance I will keep my comments brief due to time pressure but will post more detail when time permits.

1. Are people of this Jatha vegetarians and always been like that?



Growing up in Kenya in the 1950s and 1960s (I spent the first years of my life, the 1940s, in Punjab) I always assumed that amritdhari Sikhs are not supposed to eat non-veg food. Anyone who aspired to take Pahul gave up meat immediately upon being initiated. This was the common belief amongst the community I grew up in, i.e. such matters were taken for granted. However, contemporary thinking has brought the controversy into the open. My aim, here, is not to engage in this controversy but to answer your question, in that the Jatha follows the same concept when an individual is initiated into the Khalsa order – at least that is my understanding. However, the Gurdwara is open to all and sundry and embraces all notwithstanding their life styles. Sikhs from all walks of life visit the Gurdwara for the blessing of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji almost always in Parkash in the Main Darbar Sahib (often referred to as the main hall). No one is discriminated against deliberately.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=29587

Nothing can be further from the truth regarding the alleged mistreatment of sehajdhari Sikhs. Bhai Mohinder Singh ji (commonly known as bhai sahib) donated £2,500 towards the Sikh causes close to the heart of actor Mangal Dhillon (a sehajdhari Sikh) – see his site:

Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=29587
http://www.sikhfilms.com/sf/httpdocs/promoters.htm

2. Did they always wear white or had different colours before? And if they did then any idea why changed into all white?


The sewadars at the Gurdwara are no different from you or me and come from the normal working community in the UK. Amongst them you will see professionals, business men and women, office workers, skilled workers and others who conduct their lives like anyone else wearing ordinary clothes in various colours. The white dress you mention is akin to the dress code used in the mainstream Gurdwaras including Darbar Sahib Amritsar. This is worn generally by Pathis, Ragis and sewadars serving in the Darbar Sahib. The sewadars serving in the kitchen and other areas wear ordinary clothes (various colours). My wife’s younger sister, a widow, visits the SGNNS Gurdwara regularly and serves in the preparation of langar. She hasnothing but praise for the organisation,particularly in the way the community helps the downtrodden, destitute and the needy. She is often joined by her other younger sister, a PA to a secondary school head. She is suffering from a serious illness and finds a lot of solace and comfort from the rendering of Gurbani and support from the Saadh Sangat. This is the essence of Real Sikhi, in my opinion. This reminds me of a poem:


Nanak Guru daa ghar hai dukhiaan laiee aashiaanaa;
mehraan muhabbtaan daa bhariaa hoyeaa khazzana.


Guru Nanak’s abode (Gurdwara) is a sanctuary for the suffering and the destitute. It overflows with the treasure of love, affection and Guru’s Blessings.


During Amrit Pahul initiations the Five Pyaras wear the traditional Blue and kesri garb – I have actually seen photographs of Baba Ji in these colours and it must be noted that he often, in private life, wore ordinary suits (coat and trousers – I personally saw him. several times, dressed like that - Bhai Mohinder Singh ji likewise). Bhai Mohinder singh ji, a qualified engineer, and his wife run a small business for their livelihood and donate generously to worthwhile causes. His commitment to the Sikh community is exemplary and commendable in the way he participates personally, using his own funds, in the joys and sorrows of sangat. I have actually witnessed this.


All the sewadars are Nishkaam Sevaks (service without fee). There are no paid officials, Granthis, Gyanis, or Ragis. To the contrary most contribute towards funds for its many charitable causes.


3. What is the women's role in the Jatha?

I know there is often too much to read on the internet and SPN is no exception in the wonderful articles it publishes. Because of the length of some of the articles it is easy to miss out some detail. If you revisit the article you will see there were ladies in the group that visited Israel. I do not recall seeing the Jatha at the funeral of Pope John Paul II.


3. What is their main goal and how do they realise that?

Their goal is no different from other mainstream Sikh organisations and they firmly believe in the supremacy of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji over any other scripture- Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is the Living Eternal Guru for them just as it is for you and me. They not only believe but practice the three pillars of Sikhi – kirat karni, Naam japna and wand shakna (honest labour, meditation and sharing of rewards and knowledge). I often hear from my sister-in-law that Bhai Sahib (as he is affectionately known) has a passion for putting Sikhi on the world stage as a way of life for the entire world – a univerasal faith – and spread the everlasting philosophical message of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji

It is possible that I may not agree with everything they do but this is true of any organization, however, good, and that does not automatically render an organisation into a cult or a sect. I would certainly not call them a sect. The reverence they give to Guru Granth Sahib is the highest I have ever seen and they adhere only to shabad Gurbani in their congregations – Katchi Bani is strictly discouraged.


I hope the above helps but I do intend to post more when time permits. All the comments are made in good faith and are not intended to induce any argument or prolonged debate as I do not represent the organisation – mine is an entirely impartial and objective take on the Soho Road Sikh Gurdwara (GNNSJ as it is known) and its Sangat.

Sincere apologies in advance for any inaccuracies in the above statements


Humbly


Rajinder Singh ‘Arshi’

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aman Singh Randip jifficeffice" />

Aman Singh ji, ofcourse there won’t be articles about Puran Singh Dhanjal about his drinking. This is what I have been told by people who were there at the initial conception of this pseudo-ramgharia/namdhari Sikh cult.

As for mistreatment of Sehajdhari’s, why are Sehajdhari’s forbidden from doing Sewa at ffice:smarttags" />Soho road?

They have no pictures of Guru’s at the Temple (which I agree with), yet they have a picture of Puran Singh Dhanjal, why?

Why is one man in charge of finances’ at the Temple?

I could ask many many more question but I won’t.

It’s true the Niskam-vites do not believe in aspects of the SRM, especially elements such as Kuttha meat and follow an almost Vashnavite stance on this. This is due to the fact, the massive Ramgarhia community in Uganda and Kenya was influenced heavily by Namdhari’s (who is essence are Vashnavites).

I’m sorry to upset people, and quite frankly being called a Nindak by these East African Sikhs is nothing short of what I expected. They do the same thing to people who do not conform to THEIR idea of Sikhism.

They are a waste of time and a waste of space. No better than the Sant Matt groups in Punjab like Radhaoswami’s.

In the UK we have a hard time keeping youth on the Sikh path, and extreme groups do not help matters.

I apologise for the offence, but there you have it.

Also feel free to remove my comments.