Fate, Destiny, Pre-Destination, Likhia

Ishna · #1 (**permalink**) 07-Aug-2012, 18:57 PM

What is fate?

What is destiny?

What is pre-ordained?

What is meant by references in Gurbani to things being written in our destiny?

Example:

ਭੁਗਤਿ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਦਇਆ ਭੰਡਾਰਣਿ ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਵਾਜਹਿ ਨਾਦ ॥
Bẖugaṯ gi▫ān ḏa▫i▫ā bẖandāraṇ gẖat gẖat vājėh nāḏ.
Let spiritual wisdom be your food, and compassion your attendant. The Sound-current of the Naad vibrates in each and every heart.
ਆਪਿ ਨਾਥੁ ਨਾਥੀ ਸਭ ਜਾ ਕੀ ਰਿਧਿ ਸਿਧਿ ਅਵਰਾ ਸਾਦ ॥
Āp nāth nāthī sabẖ jā kī riḏẖ siḏẖ avrā sāḏ.
He Himself is the Supreme Master of all; wealth and miraculous spiritual powers, and all other external tastes and pleasures, are all like beads on a string.
ਸੰਜੋਗੁ ਵਿਜੋਗੁ ਦੁਇ ਕਾਰ ਚਲਾਵਹਿ ਲੇਖੇ ਆਵਹਿ ਭਾਗ ॥
Sanjog vijog ḏu▫e kār cẖalāvėh lekẖe āvahi bẖāg.
Union with Him, and separation from Him, come by His Will. We come to receive what is written in our destiny.
ਆਦੇਸੁ ਤਿਸੈ ਆਦੇਸੁ ॥
Āḏes ṯisai āḏes.
I bow to Him, I humbly bow.
ਆਦਿ ਅਨੀਲੁ ਅਨਾਦਿ ਅਨਾਹਤਿ ਜੁਗੁ ਜੁਗੁ ਏਕੋ ਵੇਸੁ ॥੨੯॥
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/questions-and-answers/38900-fate-destiny-pre-destination-likhia.html
Āḏ anīl anāḏ anāhaṯ jug jug eko ves. ||29||
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38900
The Primal One, the Pure Light, without beginning, without end. Throughout all the ages, He is One and the Same. ||29||

I am curious of the sangat's understanding as I have none of my own and recent discussion about hukam has got me wondering where these concepts fit in Sikhi.

Embers · #2 (**permalink**) 07-Aug-2012, 22:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ishna

What is fate?

What is destiny?

What is pre-ordained?

What is meant by references in Gurbani to things being written in our destiny?

I am curious of the sangat's understanding as I have none of my own and recent discussion about hukam has got me wondering where these concepts fit in Sikhi.

Hello Ishna Ji, Sat Siri Akaal.
I can offer an answer based on my personal view to get the ball rolling. I think this is perhaps one of the most challenging questions.

For me, destiny, fate and anything which is pre-ordained is equivalent in meaning to Hukam; the Lord's command.

How would you feel if you knew that every action, every word was already pre-ordained by a God without hate ( nirbẖao nirvair)? Would there be need for concern?

My reasoning is that if I consider that what ever happens to me will be pre-ordained then I feel a sense of acceptance. It is important to note that with acceptance there is still a place for chardi kala, there is still action and choices to make, some easy some hard. However there is a sense that what ever happens my Lord will see me through. There is nothing I need to crave or avoid, come what may.

This acceptance is the acceptance of Hukam. To an outsider, they will see me act just as before, however I know that in my heart I have completely accepted Waheguru and with it peace will fill my mind. Ego, fear, sloth and hatred will diminish as infinite love fills my being.

Here is some quotes from Gurbani which I hope emphasise my points above;

Page 9, Line 1
ਗਾਵਨਿ ਤੁਧਨੋ ਜਤੀ ਸਤੀ ਸੰਤੋਖੀ ਗਾਵਨਿ ਤੁਧਨੋ ਵੀਰ ਕਰਾਰੇ ॥
गावनि तुधनो जती सती संतोखी गावनि तुधनो वीर करारे ॥
Gāvan ṯuḏẖno jaṯī saṯī sanṯokẖī gāvan ṯuḏẖno vīr karāre.
The celibates, the fanatics, and the peacefully accepting sing of You; the fearless warriors sing of You.
Guru Nanak Dev

Page 209, Line 10
ਮਾਨਿ ਆਗਿਆ ਸਰਬ ਸੁਖ ਪਾਏ ਦੂਖਹ ਠਾਉ ਗਵਾਇਓ ॥
मानि आगिआ सरब सुख पाए दूखह ठाउ गवाइओ ॥
Mān āgi▫ā sarab sukẖ pā▫e ḏūkẖah ṯẖā▫o gavā▫i▫o.
Accepting the Command of the Lord's Will, I have found total peace; the home of suffering has been destroyed.
Guru Arjan Dev

Page 896, Line 4
ਬਿਨੁ ਮਾਨੇ ਰਲਿ ਹੋਵਹਿ ਖੇਹ ॥
बिनु माने रलि होवहि खेह ॥
Bin māne ral hovėh kẖeh.
Without accepting, you shall mingle with dust.
Guru Arjan Dev

Page 948, Line 7
ਸਭੁ ਇਕੋ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਵਰਤਦਾ ਮੰਨਿਐ ਸੁਖੁ ਪਾਈ ॥੩॥
सभु इको हुकमु वरतदा मंनिऐ सुखु पाई ॥३॥
Sabẖ iko hukam varaṯḏā mani▫ai sukẖ pā▫ī. ||3||
The Hukam, the Command of the One Lord is all-pervasive; accepting it, peace is found. ||3||
Guru Amar Das

Page 1085, Line 9
ਰੰਗਿ ਰਤੇ ਤੇਰੈ ਦਾਸ ਅਪਾਰੇ ॥
रंगि रते तेरै दास अपारे ॥
Rang raṯe ṯerai ḏās apāre.
Your slaves are imbued with Your Infinite Love.
Guru Arjan Dev

Others will disagree, as before, the perception of free will and Hukam has to be considered personally, in reflection to one's own actions and hence not everyone will agree with me. Meditation on this is key. The fact that everyone will not agree, is in my opinion, ultimately hukam, although it may mascaraed as choice. Consequently His slaves can be carefree and leave the results to the Beloved Lord mundahug .

harry haller · #3 (**permalink**) 08-Aug-2012, 00:18 AM

Quote:

Others will disagree, as before, the perception of free will and Hukam has to be considered personally, in reflection to one's own actions and hence not everyone will agree with me. Meditation on this is key. The fact that everyone will not agree, is in my opinion, ultimately hukam, although it may mascaraed as choice. Consequently His slaves can be carefree and leave the results to the Beloved Lord .

Meditation or contemplation?

Embers · #4 (**permalink**) 08-Aug-2012, 01:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by harry haller

Meditation or contemplation?

Can I go for both?icecreamkaur
I like to have my cake and eat it too

Gyani Jarnail Singh · #5 (**permalink**) 08-Aug-2012, 08:51 AM

When you have COME...your EXIT is already predetermined...Sanjog...VIJOG...One follows the Other. Thats WHY nothing ever BORN..can ever deny DEATH....its already WRITTEN !! Logical Order of HUKM one cna see daily all over...even in the stars and galaxies..new stars BORN..older ones becoming dwarfs and disappearing into Black Holes..CONTINOUS PRODUCTION LINE..ONGOING...conveyer belt endless....it never STOPS..Nothing ever GETS OFF...

Ishna · #6 (**permalink**) 08-Aug-2012, 10:27 AM

Thank you Embersji and Gyaniji

I will reply in more detail later, however my first thought on the back of Gyaniji's message is that hukam / predetermination is clearly seen on the large scale, but what about the day to day small-scale?
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38900

The fact that someone cuts me off in traffic and I toot my horn at them - is that predetermined? The fact that you're reading this message - is that written in your destiny, or is it God's will?

Luckysingh · #7 (**permalink**) 08-Aug-2012, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ishna

Thank you Embersji and Gyaniji

I will reply in more detail later, however my first thought on the back of Gyaniji's message is that hukam / predetermination is clearly seen on the large scale, but what about the day to day small-scale?

The fact that someone cuts me off in traffic and I toot my horn at them - is that predetermined? The fact that you're reading this message - is that written in your destiny, or is it God's will?

OK, good example here. Firstly, this is where in another post we are bringing hukam and karma into a similar equation. Therefore to understand the answer there has to be some kind of understanding there.

For me, personally I would have to say that someone cutting you up in traffic is Hukam or pre-determined but how you are to react to this is what will affect your karmic part. You could on one hand start cursing, swearing at the person- this is a very negative interaction.
OR, you could just say ''never mind, I will let them do that as I've probably done it myself without realising''', or something along those lines,- this is a positive karmic interaction.

About the fact that I am reading the message is because I've been exposed to it as I never set out looking for this subject or issue but it just cropped up, -In my opinion this again would be pre-determined and an act of hukam or pre-determined, as it came upto to me according to time and place.
Once again, the karmic influence will be how I interact and learn positivey from it or learn negatively. This is how this act of simple hukam could affect me in the future.

As mentioned above by Gyanji, pre-ordained is things like death etc that are set to happen in the future.
Whereas fate and destiny can be changed according to how we interact to certain situations.

Gyani Jarnail Singh · #8 (**permalink**) 08-Aug-2012, 11:08 AM

Ishna Ji..
That someone could have chosen NOT to cut in..and you could have chosen not to hoot..how this is predetermined..its a choice...you can cut back IN and get a hoot back..so on..until a crash happens.....

I NEVER HOOT..no matter how close the cut..and my better half seated in the passenger seat never agrees...HOOT HOOT HOOT she will scream at me..that idiot that gadha just cut IN..and you never hooted..you coward...( ha ha..and IF I ever do HOOT..and the other guy gives me the middle finger and glares at me..then my BH simply gets busy putting some lipstick ON...its YOUR HOOT..YOU GO OUT and FIGHT that gadha !! so thats How i AVOID any "PREDETERMINED" bashing ups !! he he ...NO ROAD RAGE for me..pre determined or post determined..he he

Amarpal · #9 (**permalink**) 08-Aug-2012, 12:15 PM

Ishna Ji,

As I understand:

Our deeds, during present and past births, create what is referred to as 'Linga Sarira' in the ancient scripture of the land.

We are reborn to exhaust our past bad deeds and to evolve spiritually and to serve the creation of the 'Sat'.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38900

To the above effect our mission of life is created. This has important milestones. The 'Sat' creates the environment which is conducive to our realising the Milestones fixed for us in our Mission of Life. 'Sat' is always with us to help us achieve the mission of life.

Achieving a Milestone and moving on the other milestone is by our own efforts. If we go astray, 'Sat' puts additional difficulties in our path, in a way to make us redirected our efforts and come back to the path needed.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38900

If we are not equal to the task 'Sat' make us pass through testing time where we learn and achieve the level needed to achieve the objectives of our mission's milestone.

While passing through this life time, we create additional Karmas which may be good or bad or both. Depend on this inventory of Karmas, we may come out as a more evolved being compare to with what we had ended our last life or more degraded one. This all gets recorded in our 'Linga Sarira'.

When we accumulate good Karmas, our 'Linga Sarira' starts dissolving and a stage reaches, when we lose our I-ness; we become puneet and no karma can then get attached to us, because all our acts become selfless in the service of the 'Sat'. We become pure instrument of ‘Sat’; all that we do become an act of 'Sat'. With the result the 'Linga Sarira' gets dissolved fully and what is left is us is pure Atman which is nothing but Parmatma i.e. the 'Sat". At this stage, the person becomes 'Jeewan Mukta' i.e. liberated while living. When such person leaves this earthly body it merges with the 'Sat'.

When the 'Linga Sarira' is terribly degraded, reaching the pinnacle of spirituality may not be possible in one lifetime and thus reaching that milestone is not incorporated in mission of life. As a result one does not reach that level of spirituality, no matter how much it tries. Then we say it is not 'Preordained'.

If there is milestone incorporate in the mission of life (harsh or pleasant) and one reaches that it is referred to 'Preordained'

The mission of life has to be accomplished in specific environment, may be in difficult situation in Ethiopia, or in a effluent materialistic society like in USA, or in pious environment of a really good ashram in Himalaya, to be in such environment is 'Preordained'.

Guru Sahib has repeatedly asked us to ponder over Sabad; what I have said in this post is the result of such effort. In this way it is my understanding.

With love and respect for all.

Amarpal Singh