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Fate, Destiny, Pre-Destination, Likhia

Discussion in 'Questions and Answers' started by Ishna, Aug 7, 2012.

  1. Ishna

    Ishna
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    What is fate?

    What is destiny?

    What is pre-ordained?

    What is meant by references in Gurbani to things being written in our destiny?

    Example:

    ਭੁਗਤਿ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਦਇਆ ਭੰਡਾਰਣਿ ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਵਾਜਹਿ ਨਾਦ
    Bẖugaṯ gi▫ān ḏa▫i▫ā bẖandāraṇ gẖat gẖat vājėh nāḏ.
    Let spiritual wisdom be your food, and compassion your attendant. The Sound-current of the Naad vibrates in each and every heart.
    ਆਪਿ ਨਾਥੁ ਨਾਥੀ ਸਭ ਜਾ ਕੀ ਰਿਧਿ ਸਿਧਿ ਅਵਰਾ ਸਾਦ
    Āp nāth nāthī sabẖ jā kī riḏẖ siḏẖ avrā sāḏ.
    He Himself is the Supreme Master of all; wealth and miraculous spiritual powers, and all other external tastes and pleasures, are all like beads on a string.
    ਸੰਜੋਗੁ ਵਿਜੋਗੁ ਦੁਇ ਕਾਰ ਚਲਾਵਹਿ ਲੇਖੇ ਆਵਹਿ ਭਾਗ
    Sanjog vijog ḏu▫e kār cẖalāvėh lekẖe āvahi bẖāg.
    Union with Him, and separation from Him, come by His Will. We come to receive what is written in our destiny.
    ਆਦੇਸੁ ਤਿਸੈ ਆਦੇਸੁ
    Āḏes ṯisai āḏes.
    I bow to Him, I humbly bow.
    ਆਦਿ ਅਨੀਲੁ ਅਨਾਦਿ ਅਨਾਹਤਿ ਜੁਗੁ ਜੁਗੁ ਏਕੋ ਵੇਸੁ ॥੨੯॥
    Āḏ anīl anāḏ anāhaṯ jug jug eko ves. ||29||
    The Primal One, the Pure Light, without beginning, without end. Throughout all the ages, He is One and the Same. ||29||



    I am curious of the sangat's understanding as I have none of my own and recent discussion about hukam has got me wondering where these concepts fit in Sikhi.
     
    #1 Ishna, Aug 7, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 5, 2016
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  3. Embers

    Embers
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    Hello Ishna Ji, Sat Siri Akaal.
    I can offer an answer based on my personal view to get the ball rolling. I think this is perhaps one of the most challenging questions.

    For me, destiny, fate and anything which is pre-ordained is equivalent in meaning to Hukam; the Lord's command.

    How would you feel if you knew that every action, every word was already pre-ordained by a God without hate ( nirbẖao nirvair)? Would there be need for concern?

    My reasoning is that if I consider that what ever happens to me will be pre-ordained then I feel a sense of acceptance. It is important to note that with acceptance there is still a place for chardi kala, there is still action and choices to make, some easy some hard. However there is a sense that what ever happens my Lord will see me through. There is nothing I need to crave or avoid, come what may. :sippingcoffeemunda:

    This acceptance is the acceptance of Hukam. To an outsider, they will see me act just as before, however I know that in my heart I have completely accepted Waheguru and with it peace will fill my mind. Ego, fear, sloth and hatred will diminish as infinite love fills my being.

    Here is some quotes from Gurbani which I hope emphasise my points above;

    Page 9, Line 1
    ਗਾਵਨਿ ਤੁਧਨੋ ਜਤੀ ਸਤੀ ਸੰਤੋਖੀ ਗਾਵਨਿ ਤੁਧਨੋ ਵੀਰ ਕਰਾਰੇ ॥
    गावनि तुधनो जती सती संतोखी गावनि तुधनो वीर करारे ॥
    Gāvan ṯuḏẖno jaṯī saṯī sanṯokẖī gāvan ṯuḏẖno vīr karāre.
    The celibates, the fanatics, and the peacefully accepting sing of You; the fearless warriors sing of You.
    Guru Nanak Dev

    Page 209, Line 10
    ਮਾਨਿ ਆਗਿਆ ਸਰਬ ਸੁਖ ਪਾਏ ਦੂਖਹ ਠਾਉ ਗਵਾਇਓ ॥
    मानि आगिआ सरब सुख पाए दूखह ठाउ गवाइओ ॥
    Mān āgi▫ā sarab sukẖ pā▫e ḏūkẖah ṯẖā▫o gavā▫i▫o.
    Accepting the Command of the Lord's Will, I have found total peace; the home of suffering has been destroyed.
    Guru Arjan Dev

    Page 896, Line 4
    ਬਿਨੁ ਮਾਨੇ ਰਲਿ ਹੋਵਹਿ ਖੇਹ ॥
    बिनु माने रलि होवहि खेह ॥
    Bin māne ral hovėh kẖeh.
    Without accepting, you shall mingle with dust.
    Guru Arjan Dev

    Page 948, Line 7
    ਸਭੁ ਇਕੋ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਵਰਤਦਾ ਮੰਨਿਐ ਸੁਖੁ ਪਾਈ ॥੩॥
    सभु इको हुकमु वरतदा मंनिऐ सुखु पाई ॥३॥
    Sabẖ iko hukam varaṯḏā mani▫ai sukẖ pā▫ī. ||3||
    The Hukam, the Command of the One Lord is all-pervasive; accepting it, peace is found. ||3||
    Guru Amar Das

    Page 1085, Line 9
    ਰੰਗਿ ਰਤੇ ਤੇਰੈ ਦਾਸ ਅਪਾਰੇ ॥
    रंगि रते तेरै दास अपारे ॥
    Rang raṯe ṯerai ḏās apāre.
    Your slaves are imbued with Your Infinite Love.
    Guru Arjan Dev

    Others will disagree, as before, the perception of free will and Hukam has to be considered personally, in reflection to one's own actions and hence not everyone will agree with me. Meditation on this is key. The fact that everyone will not agree, is in my opinion, ultimately hukam, although it may mascaraed as choice. Consequently His slaves can be carefree and leave the results to the Beloved Lord mundahug .
     
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    #2 Embers, Aug 7, 2012
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2012
  4. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
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    Meditation or contemplation?

    :)
     
  5. Embers

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    Can I go for both?icecreamkaur
    I like to have my cake and eat it too lol
     
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  6. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    When you have COME...your EXIT is already predetermined...Sanjog...VIJOG...One follows the Other. Thats WHY nothing ever BORN..can ever deny DEATH....its already WRITTEN !! Logical Order of HUKM one cna see daily all over...even in the stars and galaxies..new stars BORN..older ones becoming dwarfs and disappearing into Black Holes..CONTINOUS PRODUCTION LINE..ONGOING...conveyer belt endless....it never STOPS..Nothing ever GETS OFF...
     
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  7. Ishna

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    Thank you Embersji and Gyaniji

    I will reply in more detail later, however my first thought on the back of Gyaniji's message is that hukam / predetermination is clearly seen on the large scale, but what about the day to day small-scale?

    The fact that someone cuts me off in traffic and I toot my horn at them - is that predetermined? The fact that you're reading this message - is that written in your destiny, or is it God's will?
     
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  8. Luckysingh

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    OK, good example here. Firstly, this is where in another post we are bringing hukam and karma into a similar equation. Therefore to understand the answer there has to be some kind of understanding there.

    For me, personally I would have to say that someone cutting you up in traffic is Hukam or pre-determined but how you are to react to this is what will affect your karmic part. You could on one hand start cursing, swearing at the person- this is a very negative interaction.
    OR, you could just say ''never mind, I will let them do that as I've probably done it myself without realising''', or something along those lines,- this is a positive karmic interaction.

    About the fact that I am reading the message is because I've been exposed to it as I never set out looking for this subject or issue but it just cropped up, -In my opinion this again would be pre-determined and an act of hukam or pre-determined, as it came upto to me according to time and place.
    Once again, the karmic influence will be how I interact and learn positivey from it or learn negatively. This is how this act of simple hukam could affect me in the future.

    As mentioned above by Gyanji, pre-ordained is things like death etc that are set to happen in the future.
    Whereas fate and destiny can be changed according to how we interact to certain situations.
     
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  9. Gyani Jarnail Singh

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    Ishna Ji..
    That someone could have chosen NOT to cut in..and you could have chosen not to hoot..how this is predetermined..its a choice...you can cut back IN and get a hoot back..so on..until a crash happens.....

    I NEVER HOOT..no matter how close the cut..and my better half seated in the passenger seat never agrees...HOOT HOOT HOOT she will scream at me..that idiot that gadha just cut IN..and you never hooted..you coward...( ha ha..and IF I ever do HOOT..and the other guy gives me the middle finger and glares at me..then my BH simply gets busy putting some lipstick ON...its YOUR HOOT..YOU GO OUT and FIGHT that gadha !! so thats How i AVOID any "PREDETERMINED" bashing ups !! he he ...NO ROAD RAGE for me..pre determined or post determined..he he
     
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  10. Amarpal

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    Ishna Ji,

    As I understand:

    Our deeds, during present and past births, create what is referred to as 'Linga Sarira' in the ancient scripture of the land.

    We are reborn to exhaust our past bad deeds and to evolve spiritually and to serve the creation of the 'Sat'.

    To the above effect our mission of life is created. This has important milestones. The 'Sat' creates the environment which is conducive to our realising the Milestones fixed for us in our Mission of Life. 'Sat' is always with us to help us achieve the mission of life.

    Achieving a Milestone and moving on the other milestone is by our own efforts. If we go astray, 'Sat' puts additional difficulties in our path, in a way to make us redirected our efforts and come back to the path needed.

    If we are not equal to the task 'Sat' make us pass through testing time where we learn and achieve the level needed to achieve the objectives of our mission's milestone.

    While passing through this life time, we create additional Karmas which may be good or bad or both. Depend on this inventory of Karmas, we may come out as a more evolved being compare to with what we had ended our last life or more degraded one. This all gets recorded in our 'Linga Sarira'.

    When we accumulate good Karmas, our 'Linga Sarira' starts dissolving and a stage reaches, when we lose our I-ness; we become puneet and no karma can then get attached to us, because all our acts become selfless in the service of the 'Sat'. We become pure instrument of ‘Sat’; all that we do become an act of 'Sat'. With the result the 'Linga Sarira' gets dissolved fully and what is left is us is pure Atman which is nothing but Parmatma i.e. the 'Sat". At this stage, the person becomes 'Jeewan Mukta' i.e. liberated while living. When such person leaves this earthly body it merges with the 'Sat'.

    When the 'Linga Sarira' is terribly degraded, reaching the pinnacle of spirituality may not be possible in one lifetime and thus reaching that milestone is not incorporated in mission of life. As a result one does not reach that level of spirituality, no matter how much it tries. Then we say it is not 'Preordained'.

    If there is milestone incorporate in the mission of life (harsh or pleasant) and one reaches that it is referred to 'Preordained'

    The mission of life has to be accomplished in specific environment, may be in difficult situation in Ethiopia, or in a effluent materialistic society like in USA, or in pious environment of a really good ashram in Himalaya, to be in such environment is 'Preordained'.

    Guru Sahib has repeatedly asked us to ponder over Sabad; what I have said in this post is the result of such effort. In this way it is my understanding.

    With love and respect for all.

    Amarpal Singh
     
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  11. Embers

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    Sat siri akaal Ishna Ji and all,
    On the micro, small-scale, there is thought, emotions and a fairly continuous flow of sense data. These started the day we were born and will continue until the body dies.

    For each of us there is great degree of change going on in our thoughts, emotions, sense data, and the world around us. For example, whilst reading a child screams and my attention is distracted to the noise outside away from the book.

    If someone were to ask me, "Why did you stop reading?" I might reply:

    1) I was reading, then I heard the child scream and so I stopped reading to listen.
    or
    2) There was a child's scream and my attention moved to the noise.

    In number 1) There is a sense of self-willed choice or ego e.g. "I stopped". It isn't a nasty evil ego, but rather there is a strong sensation of doership i.e. "I stopped reading...".

    In number 2) There is only movement and change based on attention and environment; both within us and outside of us. There is no ego or self-willed movement because all change simply happens.


    Number 1 is based on duality. There is a "me" (ego) and things go on around "me". Some things I like some I hate and I try to change what I hate and have the things I like.

    Number 2 is no duality, merged in the Lord. There is just change in and outside of the idea of "me", all change is His will, His Hukam. I accept all, even the feeling of like and the feeling of hate and all that appears to provoke those feelings. All is change and will come and go.

    When you toot the car, it is a reaction. What made you think of tooting the horn? Earlier thoughts and ideas, some so remote or subtle that they were learnt and came naturally (like driving itself years after passing the test). Whilst there is the sensation that it is "me tooting" and that "I learnt to toot" then there will be duality and there may be a sense of separation from Sat (God).

    This is my personal opinion as it stands today, but I welcome opposite views. I am not here to convince anyone of this view as it is not necessarily a comfortable view. The idea that we are not in control can cause discomfort.

    On a foot note, I do not like the term "pre-determined", if I spoke Punjabi I would even look at the translations of Punjabi to English because I doubt that pre-determined or fate, are the best choice of meaning from the Punjabi words? They don't occur often in English either. Is someone able advise if there are other meanings, please e.g.

    Page 135, Line 7
    ਕੀਤਾ ਕਿਛੂ ਨ ਹੋਵਈ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਧੁਰਿ ਸੰਜੋਗ ॥
    कीता किछू न होवई लिखिआ धुरि संजोग ॥
    Kīṯā kicẖẖū na hova▫ī likẖi▫ā ḏẖur sanjog.
    By one's own actions, nothing can be done; destiny was pre-determined from the very beginning.
    Guru Arjan Dev

    Page 280, Line 13
    ਕਿਰਤੁ ਨਿੰਦਕ ਕਾ ਧੁਰਿ ਹੀ ਪਇਆ ॥
    किरतु निंदक का धुरि ही पइआ ॥
    Kiraṯ ninḏak kā ḏẖur hī pa▫i▫ā.
    The fate of the slanderer is pre-ordained from the very beginning of time.
    Guru Arjan Dev
     
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  12. Embers

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    Quick question, what is Likhia by the way? I did a quick search but couldn't see it.
    Thanks
     
  13. Gyani Jarnail Singh

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    Likhiyah is .."whats written..apparently on our Forehead...in Opposite image..as in a Mirror..or like what we see on a STAMP ( Rubber stamp..the words appear upside down but when inked and pressed to paper..they become readable)
     
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  14. Ishna

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    As a point of interest the word 'likhia' appears in the first Paurhi of japji Sahib on Ang (page) 1 of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji:

    ਸੋਚੈ ਸੋਚਿ ਹੋਵਈ ਜੇ ਸੋਚੀ ਲਖ ਵਾਰ
    Socẖai socẖ na hova▫ī je socẖī lakẖ vār.
    By thinking, He cannot be reduced to thought, even by thinking hundreds of thousands of times.
    ਚੁਪੈ ਚੁਪ ਹੋਵਈ ਜੇ ਲਾਇ ਰਹਾ ਲਿਵ ਤਾਰ
    Cẖupai cẖup na hova▫ī je lā▫e rahā liv ṯār.
    By remaining silent, inner silence is not obtained, even by remaining lovingly absorbed deep within.
    ਭੁਖਿਆ ਭੁਖ ਉਤਰੀ ਜੇ ਬੰਨਾ ਪੁਰੀਆ ਭਾਰ
    Bẖukẖi▫ā bẖukẖ na uṯrī je bannā purī▫ā bẖār.
    The hunger of the hungry is not appeased, even by piling up loads of worldly goods.
    ਸਹਸ ਸਿਆਣਪਾ ਲਖ ਹੋਹਿ ਇਕ ਚਲੈ ਨਾਲਿ
    Sahas si▫āṇpā lakẖ hohi ṯa ik na cẖalai nāl.
    Hundreds of thousands of clever tricks, but not even one of them will go along with you in the end.
    ਕਿਵ ਸਚਿਆਰਾ ਹੋਈਐ ਕਿਵ ਕੂੜੈ ਤੁਟੈ ਪਾਲਿ
    Kiv sacẖi▫ārā ho▫ī▫ai kiv kūrhai ṯutai pāl.
    So how can you become truthful? And how can the veil of illusion be torn away?
    ਹੁਕਮਿ ਰਜਾਈ ਚਲਣਾ ਨਾਨਕ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਨਾਲਿ ॥੧॥
    Hukam rajā▫ī cẖalṇā Nānak likẖi▫ā nāl. ||1||
    O Nanak, it is written that you shall obey the Hukam of His Command, and walk in the Way of His Will. ||1||
     
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  15. Ishna

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    Thank you everyone for your replies thus far. This will take some pondering.
     
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    #14 Ishna, Aug 8, 2012
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2012
  16. Gyani Jarnail Singh

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    HUKM Razauii challnna...likhiyah....HUKM..the Laws of creation..Physics..gravity..speed of light etc etc HAVE to be followed...its WRITTEN...whats BORN MUST DIE...its written..its HUKM...if we jump off a building..we descend...its written..its HUKM of Gravity..rivers flow downwards..water turns to steam and forms clouds and rains back...all this is HUKM and we have to follow..chhallanna accordingly...the day we are BORN..the LAWS are there in Place...we follow...and if we ACCEPT we are Happy...if we Fight back..we are SORRY...
     
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  17. Harvir007

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    Nothing can actually be pre-ordained. One can't look in to the future, and I highly doubt that a celestial dictator can as well. Obviously certainties like death are bound to happen, but that can't be down to what's written in your 'destiny'. In my eyes, you make your own path, you're not put on one nor should you be told to follow one. Everything in life that occurs is down to what you do right now. To be told that there is a fate and destiny is evil in my eyes. You give people who cannot afford the luxury of faith something to cling on to which in the end may well be very futile. But hey-ho, just how I see it. ::cool:
     
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  18. Embers

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    Hi Harvir Ji
    I agree, really things are happening and we are doing things about it (or not as the case might be). To think of the future is to miss the present. For me 'God' dwells in the present and I wouldn't want to miss Him by worrying about the future (or the past). So yes, I agree, "rejoice in life!" wouldbe my reply to your ideas and "do good things!".
     
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  19. Harvir007

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    But see, as an Apatheist, I just can't grasp how you feel the need to not miss god. I fervently believe that regardless of whether or not there is a celestial dictator, my life just would not change in any amicable sense. So it is from this point that I conclude that I've just gotta keep moving forward and doing my thing. However I do appreciate your belief as you seem rather sincere. ::cool:
     
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  20. Harry Haller

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    As Sikhism does not, in my view, regard God as a celestial dictator, more of an invisible energy, a force, an order. And as I view God as completely non interventionist, and beyond requesting assistance, I am sorry to disappoint you but I find your writings completely within the realm of Sikhism as I understand it.
     
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  21. Harvir007

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    Well Sikhism perceives god as a creator, we agree on this yes? Hmm, you may find my writings within the realm of Sikhism, but this is simply a matter of how you perceive the religion itself.
     
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