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Dancing To Shabads

Harry Haller

Panga Master
SPNer
Jan 31, 2011
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Followers or I say those who control the faith in every religion make their own rules for their benefit. Sikhs object to take SGGS to a hotel because they lose money. the same thing slowly slowly becomes the flaw in the faith which gives rise to another faith by finding faults with the previous one. In spite of the fact that SGGS is a divine book, we make every effort to hide in gurdwara or in public so that it remains their domain. Even on this site the administrators press hard to put the page number on every statement the audience makes. that is how the audience lose interest. Let anyone tell me how the page number creates respect for SGGS.
For your information i have been reading SGGS for the last 45 years. i have gone through it hundreds of time but I never found so much emphasis anywhere. that is the technique administrators use to stay on top everywhere

No one is interested in staying on top,however, it is hugely unfair to make one line statements from the SGGS when the essence is in the whole shabad. It is not about creating respect, it is about accountability for your statements and your interpretations, it is about not using bani to justify your arguments by finding one soundbite that does not do the original meaning justice. It is about not allowing the SGGS to be used as a tool for self serving and manipulation, thats all.
 

ActsOfGod

Writer
SPNer
Aug 13, 2012
387
527
I'm confused, Is the Guru's darbar some sort of special place that is unlike any other place on this earth?

The protocol that is demanded in Guru's darbar, is that different to protocol demanded else where?

If this is the case, then the story of Guru Nanak visiting Mecca could not possibly be true, because he seemed to be in favour of the very opposite of your point, ie, god is everywhere, to behave in a certain way within a specific location is pointless and shows no real understanding of god, how do you reconcile your opinion with that?

Are you all suggesting I show the utmost respect in front of the SGGSji, but do as I wish once I am out of range? Could someone specify the range? is it within sight of SGGSji? In the same physical building? the same street? the same town?

I do so want to be a good Sikh, so please help me out on this

Why don't you crack open a can of beer in front of Guru Granth Sahib then, and have a smoke too while you're at it. Text your buddies, etc. According to you, God is everywhere so anything goes in Guru's hazoori.

You totally missed the point.

[AoG]
 

ActsOfGod

Writer
SPNer
Aug 13, 2012
387
527
Followers or I say those who control the faith in every religion make their own rules for their benefit. Sikhs object to take SGGS to a hotel because they lose money.

Not so. Their reasoning is this: any building that houses the Guru Granth Sahib by definition becomes a Gurudwara. Once Guru Granth Sahib has left a building, it is no longer considered a Gurudwara. Thus, the key is the presence of Guru Granth Sahib. By taking Guru Granth Sahib into a hotel, where there is a full bar stocked with liquor is equivalent to saying that it is approved and acceptable to have liquor in the Gurudwara. Therefore, it is not compatible and they oppose the practice.

It's not about money at all, its about principles.

[AoG]
 

Tejwant Singh

Mentor
Writer
SPNer
Jun 30, 2004
5,028
7,188
Henderson, NV.
Swaran ji,

Guru Fateh.

Followers or I say those who control the faith in every religion make their own rules for their benefit.

I beg to differ with you. No one controls our faith but us as individuals This is the reason there is no clergy in Sikhi. The function of the Akaal Takhats is not the way it was originally created to be. The Jathedaars are uneducated and one of them from Patna Sahib is a bigamist. They are the puppets of the politicians rather being the practitioners of Sikhi based on SGGS, our only Guru. All the decisions like the prohibition of taking the SGGS to the hotels lack any Gurmat thought process.

Sikhs object to take SGGS to a hotel because they lose money.

In Los Angeles where I lived before moving here, Gurdwaras used to charge money because the raagis also belonged to the same Gurdwara from where the SGGS was transported. Prohibition was more a dogmatic decision rather than a pragmatic one as Sikhi is.

In spite of the fact that SGGS is a divine book, we make every effort to hide in gurdwara or in public so that it remains their domain.

I have no idea where you got that from. No one can hide SGGS. Most of the Sikh homes have a separate room for SGGS. Sikhi is an open book, so to speak.

Even on this site the administrators press hard to put the page number on every statement the audience makes. that is how the audience lose interest. Let anyone tell me how the page number creates respect for SGGS.
For your information i have been reading SGGS for the last 45 years. i have gone through it hundreds of time but I never found so much emphasis anywhere. that is the technique administrators use to stay on top everywhere

Swaran ji, the reason for SPN to request full Shabads is because we would all like to know what our Guru's message is which can only be understood and then practiced if we post the whole Shabad not one liners from it because one liners make us talk about ourselves and our argument by using Gurbani as a weapon rather than a tool.

Yes, many have been reading/chanting Gurbani for years but our Gurus tell us to study, understand and practice Gurbani. Reading becomes a mechanical ritual after sometime which make us parrots of Gurbani with an ugly plumage rather than its practitioners which can only come through understanding the Gurmat message.

Lastly, I would like to add that your contributions here at SPN are priceless.

Regards.

Tejwant Singh
 

Harry Haller

Panga Master
SPNer
Jan 31, 2011
5,769
8,194
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Why don't you crack open a can of beer in front of Guru Granth Sahib then, and have a smoke too while you're at it. Text your buddies, etc. According to you, God is everywhere so anything goes in Guru's hazoori.

You totally missed the point.

[AoG]

If you are the sort to drink a beer, or have a smoke, then why would you not?

Are you suggesting that Guruji only wishes us to be Sikh like in close proximity?

Do you think Guruji appreciates that we respect him, only when he is physically around?

What respect do you we show to Guruji if we do what we want, just not in front of him?

Unfortunately, my understanding of Guruji is that you respect Guruji by behaving as a good Sikh as if he was right next to you 24/7, anything else is just lip service.

I do not pay lip service to anyone, especially not Guruji, I am as honest with him as I am with myself.

What is the point? to go forwards or backwards?

Does Guruji wish to be respected, and even then, by being lied too, or does Guruji want us all to fulfil our potential by being in consonance with his entire creation?

If you could answer these, then we will continue my friend
 

ActsOfGod

Writer
SPNer
Aug 13, 2012
387
527
If you are the sort to drink a beer, or have a smoke, then why would you not?


Are you suggesting that Guruji only wishes us to be Sikh like in close proximity?

I never said anything of the sort.

Do you think Guruji appreciates that we respect him, only when he is physically around?

What respect do you we show to Guruji if we do what we want, just not in front of him?

Again, I never said this, you are taking things out of context.

Unfortunately, my understanding of Guruji is that you respect Guruji by behaving as a good Sikh as if he was right next to you 24/7, anything else is just lip service.

I do not pay lip service to anyone, especially not Guruji, I am as honest with him as I am with myself.

Then be a "good Sikh" everywhere, including in front of the physical bir of Guru Granth Sahib. Don't go around defending beer-drinking and smoking as if it's fine -- instead focus on genuinely bettering yourself.

Does Guruji wish to be respected, and even then, by being lied too, or does Guruji want us all to fulfil our potential by being in consonance with his entire creation?

If you could answer these, then we will continue my friend

Don't lie, instead work on making yourself better. This is implicit in everything I said. I never suggested that you or anyone else should make false pretense in front of Guru Sahib, and do/behave another way elsewhere.

You should definitely hold yourself to a higher standard and improve yourself and be who you genuinely are. I never once advocated lying or paying lip service.

The way you are carrying on, why not just walk into the Darbar bare headed and with shoes on. After all, that's how you behave in the world, and since God is everywhere, what difference does it make, right?

[AoG]
 
Apr 11, 2007
351
262
Why don't you crack open a can of beer in front of Guru Granth Sahib then, and have a smoke too while you're at it. Text your buddies, etc. According to you, God is everywhere so anything goes in Guru's hazoori.

You totally missed the point.

[AoG]

Just to further assist on this issue yeh there is a range or area for contemplating the Guru Granth Sahib ji. The Gurdwara as an obode of the Guru although god is everywhere but the sat sangat isn't. That's why contemplation is affiliated with holy destinations it is about the experience of what you are interested in acquiring. I also believe that it is about how you treat something that you feel special about. I mean we all have relationships and we show our own type of appraisel in any relationship we have but with God I guess everyone has there own unique sense but with me it is about no matter how good or bad I get or what I believe to me its about that sacred bond I feel each time I pray God is always my best friend. That's why it requires its own destination to give people the space and time to explore and experience a different destination or dimension of human experiences.
 
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Harry Haller

Panga Master
SPNer
Jan 31, 2011
5,769
8,194
54
Then be a "good Sikh" everywhere, including in front of the physical bir of Guru Granth Sahib. Don't go around defending beer-drinking and smoking as if it's fine -- instead focus on genuinely bettering yourself.

The way you are carrying on, why not just walk into the Darbar bare headed and with shoes on. After all, that's how you behave in the world, and since God is everywhere, what difference does it make, right?

Allow me to be succinct, I live in a world where what you do, how you behave, what you think, what your agenda is, and generally how clean your heart is, is way, way more important than whether you drink, smoke, or show respect. Anyone can show respect, anyone can do the things you have mentioned above, what it actually achieves, I am not sure, perhaps you could explain to me, and I mean that quite genuinely.
 

chazSingh

Writer
SPNer
Feb 20, 2012
1,644
1,643
I'm confused, Is the Guru's darbar some sort of special place that is unlike any other place on this earth?

The protocol that is demanded in Guru's darbar, is that different to protocol demanded else where?

If this is the case, then the story of Guru Nanak visiting Mecca could not possibly be true, because he seemed to be in favour of the very opposite of your point, ie, god is everywhere, to behave in a certain way within a specific location is pointless and shows no real understanding of god, how do you reconcile your opinion with that?

Are you all suggesting I show the utmost respect in front of the SGGSji, but do as I wish once I am out of range? Could someone specify the range? is it within sight of SGGSji? In the same physical building? the same street? the same town?

I do so want to be a good Sikh, so please help me out on this

on to a winner here my friend..

behave outside a gurudwara as you would inside...
treat your body (the gurudwara) as you would the physical gurudwara building...
respect everyone else and look after people as they also have the gurudwara within them also...
 

ActsOfGod

Writer
SPNer
Aug 13, 2012
387
527
Allow me to be succinct, I live in a world where what you do, how you behave, what you think, what your agenda is, and generally how clean your heart is, is way, way more important than whether you drink, smoke, or show respect. Anyone can show respect, anyone can do the things you have mentioned above, what it actually achieves, I am not sure, perhaps you could explain to me, and I mean that quite genuinely.

Here is the deal. You are always assuming that it is mutually exclusive, i.e. that one has to necessarily be a fraud if they show any form of external respect.

Why is it so hard for you to believe that someone can have a clean heart and behave well in the world AND show appropriate respect in Gurus Darbar. In your world, only the clean hearted people smoke and drink because the ones who don't are necessarily frauds and hypocrites and do an outward show in Gurus Darbar.

Perhaps you don't like the idea of protocol and standards being applied to you. So you just keep going on and on about behavior and etc. which is a different thing than what I was talking about, which is respect in Guru Sahibs Darbar. Which you apparently don't give a toss about.

You should understand that BOTH are important. You are also comparing apples to oranges.

OF COURSE your behavior is important,
what you think, what your agenda is, and generally how clean your heart is.

But respect for Guru is ALSO important.

If you don't think it's of any importance, then go ahead and throw all conventions out the window. Why do you observe social conventions then?

It's really sad how everyone is so eager to throw out all satkaar and then claim its better to "be a good person"

As if showing respect makes one a bad person

[AoG]
 

Harry Haller

Panga Master
SPNer
Jan 31, 2011
5,769
8,194
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Here is the deal. You are always assuming that it is mutually exclusive, i.e. that one has to necessarily be a fraud if they show any form of external respect.

On balance, I would say the those that go overboard on treating the SGGS as a living Guru, rather than simply just reading it and bring it into their lives, have lost understanding of what the tenth master really mean't when he said 'Guru Manio Granth'. That is not to say that showing respect is a clear sign of fraud, but in my view, going overboard speaks volumes.

When that phrase was uttered, what was actually inferred? Did the tenth Guru envision his Sikhs reading, singing and living the SGGS, or did he envision that they would turn it into an idol and then worship it?

Why is it so hard for you to believe that someone can have a clean heart and behave well in the world AND show appropriate respect in Gurus Darbar.

Appropriate respect I have no problem with, but to me, appropriate respect for the SGGS can only be shown by reading and living it, worshipping it, setting the correct temperature, treating it as a living Guru is not my understanding of Sikhism, reading it is, living it is.

In your world, only the clean hearted people smoke and drink because the ones who don't are necessarily frauds and hypocrites and do an outward show in Gurus Darbar.

I have no problem with people drinking and smoking, I have met a lot of people in my life, if anything, those that were honest enough about themselves, tend to be honest about most things, I would certainly rather spend time with a smoker or a drinker who did what they wished to do, rather than someone who followed rules and regulations out of fear and respect and with no understanding other than, 'this will make god angry'. For the record, I do not smoke, and rarely drink. (its just shooting up for me these days!), I find people that follow rules tiresome, either understand and embrace what you are doing, or don't do it, is my feeling. This brings me nicely to facets of Sikhism, honesty, bravery, to see god in all, not to waste time on pointless ritual and ceremony, to accept that god is one, and can never be fully known, and to do the best we can in adopting the attributes as outlined in Mool Mantra. But what do we as Sikhs focus on? do you drink? do you smoke? do you cut your hair? I would prefer do you lie? do you see god in all, and treat all as god? are you loyal? are you honest? can you feel others pain and happiness? and most importantly of all, are you prepared to live and let live? Sikhism is not about imposing our poor understanding on others.

Perhaps you don't like the idea of protocol and standards being applied to you
your correct, I don't.

o you just keep going on and on about behavior and etc. which is a different thing than what I was talking about, which is respect in Guru Sahibs Darbar. Which you apparently don't give a toss about.

The whole world is Gurus darbar to me, I am sorry if that concept offends you.

If you don't think it's of any importance, then go ahead and throw all conventions out the window. Why do you observe social conventions then?

I have always felt that one should walk the walk and not just talk the talk, I have thrown all conventions out of the window, including social ones. I sit here in this shop from 6am to about midnight, 7 days a week, I have no friends, no social life, nothing. I wear whatever I wish, I say and do whatever I wish, you come into this shop, you enter my world, with its complete lack of convention and social rubbish, you either leave, or you buy a laptop, its quite simple. I live like this so I can be free, free of the constraints that dictate the lives of most people, I refuse to buy into the world as it is, its hard for me even to respect it, how can you respect a world where we talk about love, and charity, and assistance, yet in India, the home of Sikhism, its perfectly normal to walk past crowds of starving people and into a posh restaurant? You talk about people singing and dancing in front of SGGS, yet, there is a distinct lack of people willing to challenge the system, we have sold out, and the more we sell out, the more we enforce pointless rules and regulations and forget the most important.

It's really sad how everyone is so eager to throw out all satkaar and then claim its better to "be a good person"

As if showing respect makes one a bad person

I don't show respect to anyone, I either respect them or I don't. Either way my actions clearly show how I feel, we live in a world where everything is for show, even respect, but when people show it, but continue to lie, cheat, steal and lust after objects, what point does it serve?

If someone comes into my shop and shows me respect, I am naturally suspicious, if they compliment me, or go out of there way to show me what a great person they are, it makes me even more suspicious, if they start buying me things and trying to make my life more comfortable, I ask myself why?

If however, they are honest with me, they have no agenda, if they treat me like they would treat themselves, without any great show or song and dance, then that is respect, the former is just a show.

Guruji knows what is show and what is not, my argument is that there is too much show in Sikhism.
 

chazSingh

Writer
SPNer
Feb 20, 2012
1,644
1,643
On balance, I would say the those that go overboard on treating the SGGS as a living Guru, rather than simply just reading it and bring it into their lives, have lost understanding of what the tenth master really mean't when he said 'Guru Manio Granth'. That is not to say that showing respect is a clear sign of fraud, but in my view, going overboard speaks volumes.

When that phrase was uttered, what was actually inferred? Did the tenth Guru envision his Sikhs reading, singing and living the SGGS, or did he envision that they would turn it into an idol and then worship it?

the problem with the above statement is that regardless of using the words 'on balance' you decide to highlight the negative portion of that equation only...and this forms a generalization which is powerful in forming opinions amongst the masses....most muslims are terrorists kind of thing...or take sides with the terrorists....that sort of thing

why not talk about the other side of the equation, the people that treat it like a living Guru, and also read and also live it in their daily lives...

i've met people of that ilk, i've met people on the other side of the fence also...i've met people, who with the right guidance have gone from the negative side to the positive side...and some that will just remain on the negatoive. all whilst loving their Guru as living. unless you know every individual...the truth is, we just dont know how many frauds exists amongst the real truth seekers.

Guru Ji is living...living like you just couldn't imagine...when the shabad rings loud within you, you know Guru Ji is alive. that Same shabad, that Bani that reverberated within the Physical Guru Ji's was put to paper in a form we could understand and work with...therefore it is also living, because something living nudges you, prompts you to make a change, talks to you, is there to listen and give you answers..

its 'alive' on the outside...and alive on the inside and has the power to pull you up to experience something very expansive, very infinite...the ik..
 

Brother Onam

Writer
SPNer
Jul 11, 2012
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640
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if its a 'i have no clue what i'm doing, and dancing like the shabad is a dance track just for the sake of pleasing a fake baba' then its beyind wrong, its just crazy

but if the existence of God becomes known to you through your own being, then who knows how one will react...through dance, through poetry, through tears, through smiles etc etc ... in this instance it doesnt matter....but the world will look upon that person and think "this dudes taking the {censored}ss" unfortunately

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh!
I like Chaz's comment. While I think it's crucial to be watchful to culture-creep, where different aspects of wordliness or non-belief start to seep in and mingle with the Sacred Way, it must be remembered that Waheguru is ecstasy.
If people are just obediently going through motions, following entrenched rituals and never really penetrating the mundane, we may be missing the quest. The Bhagat poets who contributed so much to the substance of the Guru Granth Sahib and Sikhi came from ecstatic backgrounds. Among these were Sufis and Bhagtis who were routinely declared 'mad' or 'drunk', because they exhibited signs of mad or ecstatic behaviour. If one is genuinely in contact with immediate experience of Waheguru, I imagine dancing, laughing, crying, would be among the symptoms; breaking through the mundane illusions of Maya.
My point is, I would be cautious about being 'appalled' at spiritual behaviour that seems to violate the norm, while at the same time being very vigilant if these violations are the effect of idol-worship, Hinduism, carnality, commercialism or some other mainstream influence that serve to weaken the power of Sikhi.
 

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