Japji Translation Questions

Ishna · #1 (**permalink**) 18-Oct-2010, 06:43 AM

Sat Sri Akal

Hi everyone

I've started this thread as a place to gather questions specifically relating to translations of Japji Sahib.

Here's a question from the first line after Mul Mantar:

ਸੋਚੈ ਸੋਚਿ ਨ ਹੋਵਈ ਜੇ ਸੋਚੀ ਲਖ ਵਾਰ ॥
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/jap-ji-sahib/32802-japji-translation-questions.html
Socẖai socẖ na hova▫ī je socẖī lakẖ vār.

The English translation by H. McLeod (and another I have but don't have the author with me) translates the above as:

"Never can you be known through ritual purity thought one cleanse oneself a hundred thousand times."

Dr. Sant Singh Khalsa and the majority of other translations I've seen translate it like this:

"By thinking, He cannot be reduced to thought, even by thinking hundreds of thousands of times."
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=32802

So my questions is: which translation is right? And how can there be such discrepancy between translations?

Any insight is much appreciated.

Ishna

findingmyway · #2 (**permalink**) 18-Oct-2010, 06:51 AM

This thread might help you understand better:
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurmat...-use-when.html
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=32802

As far as I understand it, it's a comment on ritual bathing. Soch comes from sucha or to be clean. It also relates better to other tuks of Gurbani whereas the thinking translation doesn't make sense. We are always supposed to contemplate and meditate on Waheguru and follows the Guru's path to achieve realisation of Waheguru. This cannot be done without thinking!
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=32802
Jasleen

Tejwant Singh · #3 (**permalink**) 18-Oct-2010, 08:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ishna

sat sri akal

hi everyone

i've started this thread as a place to gather questions specifically relating to translations of japji sahib.

Here's a question from the first line after mul mantar:

ਸੋਚੈ ਸੋਚਿ ਨ ਹੋਵਈ ਜੇ ਸੋਚੀ ਲਖ ਵਾਰ ॥
socẖai socẖ na hova▫ī je socẖī lakẖ vār.

the english translation by h. Mcleod (and another i have but don't have the author with me) translates the above as:

"never can you be known through ritual purity thought one cleanse oneself a hundred thousand times."

dr. Sant singh khalsa and the majority of other translations i've seen translate it like this:

"by thinking, he cannot be reduced to thought, even by thinking hundreds of thousands of times."

so my questions is: Which translation is right? And how can there be such discrepancy between translations?

Any insight is much appreciated.

Ishna

Ishna ji,

Guru fateh.

I happen to agree with Jasleen ji. Sant Singh Khalsa got that translation from Yogi Bhajan and sad to say that most of his literal translation is misleading and distorted hence does injustice to this beautiful poetry. It is tough to turn any poetry into prose especially Gurbani from the Sri Guru Granth Sahib, our only Guru.Unfortunately Bhai Manmohan Singh also translates the verse just like Sant Singh Khalsa.However, there is a bright side. Prof.Sahib Singh has explained it well. If you know Gurmukhi, Prof. Sahib Singh's explanations are the best.

Allow me to express why SOCH- SUCH- Purity is not what Sant Singh Khalsa and Bhai Manmohan Singh claim it to be as thinking.

In Hindu mythology, it is claimed that there are four ways that help one to become a better/perfect/holy/in-tuned/be closest with/to The Source- Ik Ong Kaar.

1. To take dips in the holy waters of all the religious places. Guru Nanak said nothing is going to happen with this silly ritual which can not even cleanse our outer body.

ਸੋਚੈ ਸੋਚਿ ਨ ਹੋਵਈ ਜੇ ਸੋਚੀ ਲਖ ਵਾਰ ॥
Socẖai socẖ na hova▫ī je socẖī lakẖ vār.

2. To keep the vow of silence called Mon Vrat. Guru Nanak said that the tempests and the hurricanes within will not stop making horrendous noises if we force ourselves to keep silent.

ਚੁਪੈ ਚੁਪ ਨ ਹੋਵਈ ਜੇ ਲਾਇ ਰਹਾ ਲਿਵ ਤਾਰ ॥
Cẖupai cẖup na hova▫ī je lā▫e rahā liv ṯār.

3. To eat as much as one can to satiate one's hunger. Guru Nanak said that no matter how much one eats, after sometimes the hunger will comeback.Gluttony brings nothing but more gluttony.

ਭੁਖਿਆ ਭੁਖ ਨ ਉਤਰੀ ਜੇ ਬੰਨਾ ਪੁਰੀਆ ਭਾਰ ॥
Bẖukẖi▫ā bẖukẖ na uṯrī je bannā purī▫ā bẖār.

4.To gain knowledge by reading and becoming good parrots where one can spit out words to impress one's opponent. Guru Nanak said that no matter how much one indulges in Me-ism by claiming to know everything results in naught if one has not learnt anything from that.This verse would be the duplication of thinking if SOCH were taken as such which would not make any sense.

ਸਹਸ ਸਿਆਣਪਾ ਲਖ ਹੋਹਿ ਤ ਇਕ ਨ ਚਲੈ ਨਾਲਿ ॥
Sahas si▫āṇpā lakẖ hohi ṯa ik na cẖalai nāl.

In the following verse Guru Nanak questions himself, how can one become the Truth seeker then? What is the modus operandi for this to take place?

ਕਿਵ ਸਚਿਆਰਾ ਹੋਈਐ ਕਿਵ ਕੂੜੈ ਤੁਟੈ ਪਾਲਿ ॥
Kiv sacẖi▫ārā ho▫ī▫ai kiv kūrhai ṯutai pāl.

The answer lies in the last verse of the pauri which is the stepping stone of one's initiation to cultivate Gurmat thought process- Sikhi thinking.

One must learn to tread on the path of the HUKAM in order to start cultivating Gurmat- the thought process of One-ism.

ਹੁਕਮਿ ਰਜਾਈ ਚਲਣਾ ਨਾਨਕ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਨਾਲਿ ॥੧॥
Hukam rajā▫ī cẖalṇā Nānak likẖi▫ā nāl. ||1||

In fact, Sikhi encourages one to cultivate the thought process in order to breed goodness within. Sri Guru Granth Sahib, our only GURU is filled with the tools to lead us towards that.

So, SOCH as in thinking is part of Sikhi not SOCH as SUCH-becoming "pure" by taking dips in holy waters.

Regards

Tejwant Singh

Ishna · #4 (**permalink**) 18-Oct-2010, 09:05 AM

Thank you both for your replies. Sometimes I feel I'll never grasp gurbani because I lack the background knowledge to be able to interpret the metaphors. Forums like this are just so valuable to newcomers like me. Many thanks to you for taking the time to explain things.

Jasleen ji, I think the "thinking" translation does make sense, as I can understand it to mean that by thinking about God you can't get a whole concept of It no matter how much you think about It because it is so far beyond comprehension. However, that is obviously not the meaning of this line as you and Tejwant ji have explained.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=32802
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=32802

Translations are a minefield. Of the 6 or so English translations I have, only 2 of them translate the "thinking" line as ritual bathing. That is such a trap! What other inaccuracies are there lurking in these translations I've previously relied on??

I'm very glad you've answered my question as I began to doubt the accuracy of one of the guidebooks I have (my favourite), but now I know it's the more correct translation and can proceed with confidence!

Ishna

Soul_jyot · #5 (**permalink**) 18-Oct-2010, 09:46 AM

ਸੋਚੈ ਸੋਚਿ ਨ ਹੋਵਈ ਜੇ ਸੋਚੀ ਲਖ ਵਾਰ ॥
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=32802
socẖai socẖ na hova▫ī je socẖī lakẖ vār.

My personal understanding of the above has been:

"One cannot comprehend HIM through reason,
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=32802
even if one reasoned for ages."

spnadmin · #6 (**permalink**) 18-Oct-2010, 09:52 AM

Soul_hyot ji

The reason I like your version is that it goes back to the words that are actually there. It is a stretch to figure out how McLeod came up with ritual purity or cleansing when nothing in the vaar comes close. I checked Guru Granth Darpan on this one.

Some version of soch is repeated over and over which carries the idea of thinking, reasoning, coming to the truth through mental processes. Thanks. The only way we can get metaphorically to cleansing rituals is if by thinking of thought as obsessive thought. And that does not fit the overall point of the pauree.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=32802

You know McLeod did not know how to read Gurmukhi - maybe later in life he did. But this is one area where he should not be trusted.

And there are not very many where he can be trusted.

Tejwant Singh · #7 (**permalink**) 18-Oct-2010, 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soul_jyot

ਸੋਚੈ ਸੋਚਿ ਨ ਹੋਵਈ ਜੇ ਸੋਚੀ ਲਖ ਵਾਰ ॥
socẖai socẖ na hova▫ī je socẖī lakẖ vār.

My personal understanding of the above has been:

"One cannot comprehend HIM through reason,
even if one reasoned for ages."

Soul Jyot ji,

Guru Fateh.

I beg to differ with you. As Ik Ong Kaar IS, I fail to understand what is there to reason about? Guru Nanak has described The Source in the Mool Mantar very well and given all the reasons possible in it.

We are surrounded by The Source's wow! and awe! factors.

Secondly, reasoning, Gurmat thought process are only cultivated through studying provided it does not breed Me-ism by making us Mr/Ms Know it All and this is explained in the fourth verse of the Pauri. There is no need for Guru Nanak to repeat the same thought in two verses, hence duplicate the same.

Thirdly, the last verse below puts all reasoning to rest and asks us to accept Hukam. In this verse Guru Nanak talks about reasoning being a futile endeavour in front of the Hukam.

ਹੁਕਮਿ ਰਜਾਈ ਚਲਣਾ ਨਾਨਕ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਨਾਲਿ ॥੧॥
Hukam rajā▫ī cẖalṇā Nānak likẖi▫ā nāl. ||1||

Lastly, Sant Singh Maskeen and Prof. Sahib Singh have mentioned the first verse as a ritualistic bathing in order to purify oneself with whom I happen to agree with.

Regards

Tejwant Singh

spnadmin · #8 (**permalink**) 18-Oct-2010, 11:01 AM

Yes but Tejwant ji

Where does ritual cleaning factor in that particular line.

socẖai socẖ na hova▫ī je socẖī lakẖ vār.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=32802

I don't think a translation can move completely outside the range of intelligible meanings.

socẖ ਸੋc takes two meanings from the original Sanskrit. It can mean either purity or thought. So how does one decide?

For a metaphor to make sense the reader has to see that there is an analogy between word and imagery. That is, something literal is connected to something that is not literal but figurative, imagined, felt, sensed, personal. The imagery then is brought into relation with the lword and its possible range of meanings.

I am willing to be convinced that McLeod has got a point. But what is the connection he has made between the line socẖai socẖ na hova▫ī je socẖī lakẖ vār, and what McLeod claims is never can you be known through ritual purity thought one cleanse oneself a hundred thousand times?

How in a figurative sense does McLeod connect cleansing oneself and ritual purity to socẖai socẖ na hova▫ī je socẖī lakẖ vār? I don't see it. If someone does, that person needs to make it happen in my head. McLeod does not.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=32802

Professor Sahib Singh ji may have elaborated, or drawn a connection between ritual thinking and ritual bathing? -- how? How does he explain it? Why would other translators take a completely different direction?

Another translator who also equates ritual cleansing with sochai soch na hovai is Gurpreet Singh ji (PK70) who at one time did post at SPN very frequently. I don't have his permission to copy here his reasoning from a draft translation that I have. But, perhaps dalbirk ji can find out whether we can introduce it into this very interesting discussion.

spnadmin · #9 (**permalink**) 18-Oct-2010, 11:36 AM

It might be worth it for the sake of growing in this discussion to break the rules and hold out the English translation for the second pauree.

It would be good to work at the idea the Tejwant Singh ji is raising. I take his meaning is that the ideas that represented in any one vaar in the end should fit together as a unified thought.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=32802

Let's see where we go. Bringing in as many different translators' deas as we wish. And also adding personal reasoning.

ਸੋਚੈ ਸੋਚਿ ਨ ਹੋਵਈ ਜੇ ਸੋਚੀ ਲਖ ਵਾਰ ॥
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=32802
sochai soch n hovee jae sochee lakh vaar ||

ਚੁਪੈ ਚੁਪ ਨ ਹੋਵਈ ਜੇ ਲਾਇ ਰਹਾ ਲਿਵ ਤਾਰ ॥
chupai chup n hovee jae laae rehaa liv thaar ||

ਭੁਖਿਆ ਭੁਖ ਨ ਉਤਰੀ ਜੇ ਬੰਨਾ ਪੁਰੀਆ ਭਾਰ ॥
bhukhiaa bhukh n outharee jae bannaa pureeaa bhaar ||

ਸਹਸ ਸਿਆਣਪਾ ਲਖ ਹੋਹਿ ਤ ਇਕ ਨ ਚਲੈ ਨਾਲਿ ॥
sehas siaanapaa lakh hohi th eik n chalai naal ||

ਕਿਵ ਸਚਿਆਰਾ ਹੋਈਐ ਕਿਵ ਕੂੜੈ ਤੁਟੈ ਪਾਲਿ ॥
kiv sachiaaraa hoeeai kiv koorrai thuttai paal ||

ਹੁਕਮਿ ਰਜਾਈ ਚਲਣਾ ਨਾਨਕ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਨਾਲਿ ॥੧॥
hukam rajaaee chalanaa naanak likhiaa naal ||1||