Japji Translation Questions

Discussion in 'Jap Ji Sahib' started by Ishna, Oct 18, 2010.


  1. Ishna

    Ishna Above all, be rational
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    Sat Sri Akal

    Hi everyone

    I've started this thread as a place to gather questions specifically relating to translations of Japji Sahib.

    Here's a question from the first line after Mul Mantar:

    ਸੋਚੈ ਸੋਚਿ ਹੋਵਈ ਜੇ ਸੋਚੀ ਲਖ ਵਾਰ
    Socẖai socẖ na hova▫ī je socẖī lakẖ vār.

    The English translation by H. McLeod (and another I have but don't have the author with me) translates the above as:
    "Never can you be known through ritual purity thought one cleanse oneself a hundred thousand times."
    Dr. Sant Singh Khalsa and the majority of other translations I've seen translate it like this:
    "By thinking, He cannot be reduced to thought, even by thinking hundreds of thousands of times."
    So my questions is: which translation is right? And how can there be such discrepancy between translations?

    Any insight is much appreciated.

    Ishna
     
    #1 Ishna, Oct 18, 2010
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2010
  2. findingmyway

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    This thread might help you understand better:
    http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurmat-vichaar/32638-use-metaphor-gurbani-how-use-when.html

    As far as I understand it, it's a comment on ritual bathing. Soch comes from sucha or to be clean. It also relates better to other tuks of Gurbani whereas the thinking translation doesn't make sense. We are always supposed to contemplate and meditate on Waheguru and follows the Guru's path to achieve realisation of Waheguru. This cannot be done without thinking!
    Jasleen
     
  3. Tejwant Singh

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    Ishna ji,

    Guru fateh.

    I happen to agree with Jasleen ji. Sant Singh Khalsa got that translation from Yogi Bhajan and sad to say that most of his literal translation is misleading and distorted hence does injustice to this beautiful poetry. It is tough to turn any poetry into prose especially Gurbani from the Sri Guru Granth Sahib, our only Guru.Unfortunately Bhai Manmohan Singh also translates the verse just like Sant Singh Khalsa.However, there is a bright side. Prof.Sahib Singh has explained it well. If you know Gurmukhi, Prof. Sahib Singh's explanations are the best.

    Allow me to express why SOCH- SUCH- Purity is not what Sant Singh Khalsa and Bhai Manmohan Singh claim it to be as thinking.

    In Hindu mythology, it is claimed that there are four ways that help one to become a better/perfect/holy/in-tuned/be closest with/to The Source- Ik Ong Kaar.

    1. To take dips in the holy waters of all the religious places. Guru Nanak said nothing is going to happen with this silly ritual which can not even cleanse our outer body.

    ਸੋਚੈ ਸੋਚਿ ਨ ਹੋਵਈ ਜੇ ਸੋਚੀ ਲਖ ਵਾਰ ॥
    Socẖai socẖ na hova▫ī je socẖī lakẖ vār.

    2. To keep the vow of silence called Mon Vrat. Guru Nanak said that the tempests and the hurricanes within will not stop making horrendous noises if we force ourselves to keep silent.

    ਚੁਪੈ ਚੁਪ ਨ ਹੋਵਈ ਜੇ ਲਾਇ ਰਹਾ ਲਿਵ ਤਾਰ ॥
    Cẖupai cẖup na hova▫ī je lā▫e rahā liv ṯār.

    3. To eat as much as one can to satiate one's hunger. Guru Nanak said that no matter how much one eats, after sometimes the hunger will comeback.Gluttony brings nothing but more gluttony.

    ਭੁਖਿਆ ਭੁਖ ਨ ਉਤਰੀ ਜੇ ਬੰਨਾ ਪੁਰੀਆ ਭਾਰ ॥
    Bẖukẖi▫ā bẖukẖ na uṯrī je bannā purī▫ā bẖār.

    4.To gain knowledge by reading and becoming good parrots where one can spit out words to impress one's opponent. Guru Nanak said that no matter how much one indulges in Me-ism by claiming to know everything results in naught if one has not learnt anything from that.This verse would be the duplication of thinking if SOCH were taken as such which would not make any sense.

    ਸਹਸ ਸਿਆਣਪਾ ਲਖ ਹੋਹਿ ਤ ਇਕ ਨ ਚਲੈ ਨਾਲਿ ॥
    Sahas si▫āṇpā lakẖ hohi ṯa ik na cẖalai nāl.

    In the following verse Guru Nanak questions himself, how can one become the Truth seeker then? What is the modus operandi for this to take place?

    ਕਿਵ ਸਚਿਆਰਾ ਹੋਈਐ ਕਿਵ ਕੂੜੈ ਤੁਟੈ ਪਾਲਿ ॥
    Kiv sacẖi▫ārā ho▫ī▫ai kiv kūrhai ṯutai pāl.

    The answer lies in the last verse of the pauri which is the stepping stone of one's initiation to cultivate Gurmat thought process- Sikhi thinking.

    One must learn to tread on the path of the HUKAM in order to start cultivating Gurmat- the thought process of One-ism.

    ਹੁਕਮਿ ਰਜਾਈ ਚਲਣਾ ਨਾਨਕ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਨਾਲਿ ॥੧॥
    Hukam rajā▫ī cẖalṇā Nānak likẖi▫ā nāl. ||1||

    In fact, Sikhi encourages one to cultivate the thought process in order to breed goodness within. Sri Guru Granth Sahib, our only GURU is filled with the tools to lead us towards that.

    So, SOCH as in thinking is part of Sikhi not SOCH as SUCH-becoming "pure" by taking dips in holy waters.

    Regards

    Tejwant Singh
     
  4. Ishna

    Ishna Above all, be rational
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    Thank you both for your replies. Sometimes I feel I'll never grasp gurbani because I lack the background knowledge to be able to interpret the metaphors. Forums like this are just so valuable to newcomers like me. Many thanks to you for taking the time to explain things.

    Jasleen ji, I think the "thinking" translation does make sense, as I can understand it to mean that by thinking about God you can't get a whole concept of It no matter how much you think about It because it is so far beyond comprehension. However, that is obviously not the meaning of this line as you and Tejwant ji have explained.

    Translations are a minefield. Of the 6 or so English translations I have, only 2 of them translate the "thinking" line as ritual bathing. That is such a trap! What other inaccuracies are there lurking in these translations I've previously relied on??

    I'm very glad you've answered my question as I began to doubt the accuracy of one of the guidebooks I have (my favourite), but now I know it's the more correct translation and can proceed with confidence!

    Ishna
     
  5. Archived_Member16

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  6. spnadmin

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    Soul_hyot ji

    The reason I like your version is that it goes back to the words that are actually there. It is a stretch to figure out how McLeod came up with ritual purity or cleansing when nothing in the vaar comes close. I checked Guru Granth Darpan on this one.

    Some version of soch is repeated over and over which carries the idea of thinking, reasoning, coming to the truth through mental processes. Thanks. The only way we can get metaphorically to cleansing rituals is if by thinking of thought as obsessive thought. And that does not fit the overall point of the pauree.

    You know McLeod did not know how to read Gurmukhi - maybe later in life he did. But this is one area where he should not be trusted. :) And there are not very many where he can be trusted.
     
  7. Tejwant Singh

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    Soul Jyot ji,

    Guru Fateh.

    I beg to differ with you. As Ik Ong Kaar IS, I fail to understand what is there to reason about? Guru Nanak has described The Source in the Mool Mantar very well and given all the reasons possible in it.

    We are surrounded by The Source's wow! and awe! factors.

    Secondly, reasoning, Gurmat thought process are only cultivated through studying provided it does not breed Me-ism by making us Mr/Ms Know it All and this is explained in the fourth verse of the Pauri. There is no need for Guru Nanak to repeat the same thought in two verses, hence duplicate the same.

    Thirdly, the last verse below puts all reasoning to rest and asks us to accept Hukam. In this verse Guru Nanak talks about reasoning being a futile endeavour in front of the Hukam.

    ਹੁਕਮਿ ਰਜਾਈ ਚਲਣਾ ਨਾਨਕ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਨਾਲਿ ॥੧॥
    Hukam rajā▫ī cẖalṇā Nānak likẖi▫ā nāl. ||1||

    Lastly, Sant Singh Maskeen and Prof. Sahib Singh have mentioned the first verse as a ritualistic bathing in order to purify oneself with whom I happen to agree with.

    Regards

    Tejwant Singh
     
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  8. spnadmin

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    Yes but Tejwant ji

    Where does ritual cleaning factor in that particular line.

    socẖai socẖ na hova▫ī je socẖī lakẖ vār.

    I don't think a translation can move completely outside the range of intelligible meanings.

    socẖ ਸੋc takes two meanings from the original Sanskrit. It can mean either purity or thought. So how does one decide?

    For a metaphor to make sense the reader has to see that there is an analogy between word and imagery. That is, something literal is connected to something that is not literal but figurative, imagined, felt, sensed, personal. The imagery then is brought into relation with the lword and its possible range of meanings.


    I am willing to be convinced that McLeod has got a point. But what is the connection he has made between the line socẖai socẖ na hova▫ī je socẖī lakẖ vār, and what McLeod claims is never can you be known through ritual purity thought one cleanse oneself a hundred thousand times?

    How in a figurative sense does McLeod connect cleansing oneself and ritual purity to socẖai socẖ na hova▫ī je socẖī lakẖ vār? I don't see it. If someone does, that person needs to make it happen in my head. McLeod does not.

    Professor Sahib Singh ji may have elaborated, or drawn a connection between ritual thinking and ritual bathing? -- how? How does he explain it? Why would other translators take a completely different direction?

    Another translator who also equates ritual cleansing with sochai soch na hovai is Gurpreet Singh ji (PK70) who at one time did post at SPN very frequently. I don't have his permission to copy here his reasoning from a draft translation that I have. But, perhaps dalbirk ji can find out whether we can introduce it into this very interesting discussion.
     
  9. spnadmin

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    It might be worth it for the sake of growing in this discussion to break the rules and hold out the English translation for the second pauree.

    It would be good to work at the idea the Tejwant Singh ji is raising. I take his meaning is that the ideas that represented in any one vaar in the end should fit together as a unified thought.

    Let's see where we go. Bringing in as many different translators' deas as we wish. And also adding personal reasoning.


    ਸੋਚੈ ਸੋਚਿ ਨ ਹੋਵਈ ਜੇ ਸੋਚੀ ਲਖ ਵਾਰ ॥
    sochai soch n hovee jae sochee lakh vaar ||


    ਚੁਪੈ ਚੁਪ ਨ ਹੋਵਈ ਜੇ ਲਾਇ ਰਹਾ ਲਿਵ ਤਾਰ ॥
    chupai chup n hovee jae laae rehaa liv thaar ||


    ਭੁਖਿਆ ਭੁਖ ਨ ਉਤਰੀ ਜੇ ਬੰਨਾ ਪੁਰੀਆ ਭਾਰ ॥
    bhukhiaa bhukh n outharee jae bannaa pureeaa bhaar ||


    ਸਹਸ ਸਿਆਣਪਾ ਲਖ ਹੋਹਿ ਤ ਇਕ ਨ ਚਲੈ ਨਾਲਿ ॥
    sehas siaanapaa lakh hohi th eik n chalai naal ||


    ਕਿਵ ਸਚਿਆਰਾ ਹੋਈਐ ਕਿਵ ਕੂੜੈ ਤੁਟੈ ਪਾਲਿ ॥
    kiv sachiaaraa hoeeai kiv koorrai thuttai paal ||


    ਹੁਕਮਿ ਰਜਾਈ ਚਲਣਾ ਨਾਨਕ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਨਾਲਿ ॥੧॥
    hukam rajaaee chalanaa naanak likhiaa naal ||1||
     
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  10. dalbirk

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    Ishna Ji ,
    Here is the link to my blog which is exact translation of Guru Granth Darpan by Prof Sahib Singh Ji in English which will help you have clear idea of the Shabad . Here I agree wholeheartedly with Tejwant Ji that Sant Singh khalsa translation is actually the biggest mistranslation of Gurbani online .

    http://dalbirk.blogspot.com/2010/01/japu-ji-sahib.html

    Sochai Soch(i) n hovaee je sochi lakh var.
    Chupai chup n hovaee je laey raba livtar.
    Meaning of difficult Words: Sochai: by keeping external sanctity; Soch(i): purity, holiness; Sochi: if I keep cleanliness, thorough cleanliness; Chupai: by keeping silent; Chup: stability of mind; Livtar: contemplation, focusing of mind.
    Note: From the fifth line of the Pauri, it is clear that Guru Nanak Dev Ji is telling us the way of keeping the mind true and pure. The methods used by other religious i.e. bathing at places of pilgrims, trying to focus the mind in the solitude of jungles, satisfying the mind with Maya (mammon) and by describing the philosophy of the scriptures are of no consequence. He then explains the philosophy of Sikhism, and that is no live in Lord’s will and order.
    " If I maintain or try to acquire sanctity of my body by a hundred thousand baths at places of pilgrims, even then the purity of mind cannot by attained. If I contemplate continuously and observe perpetual silence, even then I cannot attain peace of mind. "
     
  11. Gyani Jarnail Singh

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    RITUALISED PURITY...bathing at Teeraths..in the Ganga...68 TEERATHS..pilgrimages to Bathe..etc etc...and in modern day Jathas like AKJ this Sucham thingy is being carried on to extradordinary lengths..such as even non-Jath but Amrtidharees Singhs are not considered SUCHAM enough for the AKJ Sarb Loh Bibek etc etc...

    THIS is One of the FUNDAMENTAL PRICIPLES or PILLARS of Hinduism/prevalent Religious behaviour of Guru nanak Jis time...and GURU JI sought to tell us..His Sikhs that its all HOGWASH. Its the MIND that s "dirty....polluted"..and its the MIND that needs to be cleaned..purified....for Salvation....NOT ....Bathing the BODY at TEERATHS and SAROVARS.

    Guur Ji DEMOLISHED this Pillar/fundamental principle via this Line in japji..socheh soch na hovee....the SOCH has a SIHAREE and this makes it a Proper NOUN.."the PURE"...meaning Bathing/washing EXTERNALLY doesnt make one "pure/clean.."..BECAUSE THIS HUMAN BODY cannot ever be pure/clean...anyway...it "consumes" DEVTAS (life giivng products" like Water..Salt..Aaannh grains..Fat Ghee...all sweet smelling and nice looking....and expells them in a substance which people hold their noses at and spit at it !!....68 teeraths...the Large number shows how important bathing of the external had become..people by the MILLIONS bathed at Hardwaar during KUMBH..and at various phsaes fo the moon etc etc...it was RELIGIOUS DUTY !! which is NOT what Guru ji beleived in...
     
  12. spnadmin

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    Ishna ji

    This is probably the more convincing way of making the distinction between two meanings of soch. Gyani has helped connect word to concept.

    The sharee Gyani is is talking about is this character ਿ in the word [/SIZE][/B]ਸੋਚਿ

    Making the word ਸੋਚਿ into a proper noun the reference then is to pure individuals rather than to cognition or thought.
     
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  13. Ishna

    Ishna Above all, be rational
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    Well, isn't this a can of worms?!

    This is tricky, because both interpretations seem to fit.

    And it's not just Mcleod who translates the line in question as ritual cleansing. The other translation I have is by someone called Bhai Harbhajan Singh from Malaysia (now resides in Sydney, Australia). I am very fond of this translation and the extrapolations he has included to enrich understanding.

    And although I know Mcleod has been discredited, his was the first translation I ever read of Sikh scripture and I admire the way he has made a gender-neutral translation. I will continue to compare his translation of Japji Sahib to others and post discrepancies as I find them.

    I'm leaning towards the ritual cleansing translation but will stay tuned!

    Ishna
     
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  14. Ishna

    Ishna Above all, be rational
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    Wow, Gyani ji and spnadmin both replied while I was writing my response...

    I always get confused with the siharis and biharis cos some of them are silent (like the ones in Mul Mantar) and I've seen people discussing how they they change the meaning of words but I struggle enough just trying to figure out if I'm supposed to pronounce them or not!

    Oh the joys of being a noob!

    Ishna
     
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  15. Tejwant Singh

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    Spnadmin ji,

    Guru Fateh,

    First of all I want to thank Giani ji for clarifying the grammar part which I intended to do this morning. The good thing about living in different time zones is that when one is asleep, then some one else with a caliber like Gyani ji can take over. I also want to thank Dalbirk ji for his efforts.

    I would like to clarify one thing that in none of my posts I ever mentioned the name W.H.Mcleod which you keep on bringing up when discussing what I have posted from my own understanding of the Pauri. I am not a fan of Mcleod at all. I did not check his translation. His books are collecting dust on my book shelves. In my opinion all those non Sikh scholars especially the ones not of Indian origin exploited Sri Guru Granth Sahib, Sikhi for their own personal benefits and gain. And as Indian culture is ingrained in idolising any one who just wears a cleaner pair of pants than theirs, becomes their hero and idol. This is what took place then when Sikhi was in disarray and due to this many foreigners took advantage because of the lee way given by the British Raj.

    Dr. Pashaura Singh, the head of Sikh studies at University of California,Riverside, is a typical Mcleod's disciple in every sense of the words. His PhD thesis based on Mcleod's writings about Sikhi was rejected first. He was forced to change his viewpoints due to that. I do not know whether you remember or not, there were lots of protests against him being the head of the chair. The matter was investigated by the University and he became the chair despite many protests.

    But he has changed as Sikhi way is which makes us learn, unlearn and relearn daily and to his credit he has changed his stance in many things which were based on Mcleod's thinking. He and I have been having many lively email interactions for a long time now. Although we still do not see eye to eye in many things about Gurbani, we are getting closer in many aspects.

    Secondly, I would like to say is that every Shabad in Gurbani is like a beautiful, well designed and meticulously strung necklace. In the case of Jap ji. Mool Mantar is the pendant and the rest of the Pauris are the pearls and as any beautifully designed necklace, things can not be strung in an haphazard manner. They require pattern and flow of cohesiveness.After all it is a thought process especially in Sikhi where there is a lot of reasoning behind Gurbani. Pragmatism on which Sikhi is based on demands from us to keep the cohesiveness and do not string the necklace in a haphazard fashion. This is the reason the term Rahao in most of the Gurbani acts like a pendant.

    I have given my thoughts about the Pauri and as you had a great idea of asking others to pin their thoughts so we can all interact in a Gurmat fashion. Then we can go to other Pauris after that.

    All the thanks go to Ishna ji for giving us this opportunity to become better Sikhs.

    Regards

    Tejwant Singh
     
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  16. spnadmin

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    Tejwant Singh ji

    I think you are referring to this part of my comments

    This was basically a request to have McLeod's thinking explained to me, thinking you might do that. (Please note: I couldn't figure it out myself.) But having read both what dalbirk ji and Gyani ji have posted, it seems much clearer. It appears that McLeod is in agreement with Professor Sant Singh on this point, and he may even have consulted the Professor's writings. So now I have a possible answer.

    I agree with you that Dr. Pashura Singh has raised the bar for critical thinking regarding Adi Granth and other issues of Sikh history and scripture. Here at SPN is a long thread in which his writings were discussed. Dr. Pashura Singh was like a lightening rod. There were those who believed SPN should not have even tolerated a discussion of his work. However the results of persisting with this thread led only to greater knowledge on my part for sure. I hope others had the same experience.
     
  17. japjisahib04

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    Similarly I have noticed the confusing interpretation done by most of the scholars of third pauri 'daida dey lendai thak paie jugha jugantar khaie khaei' as the great giver keeps on giving, while those who receive grow weary of receiving or interpret as something similar to it when Guru Nanak very clearly dimisses in first stanza the ritual, 'bhukhia bhukh na utri - to eat as much as one can to satiate one's hunger. Guru Nanak said that no matter how much one eats, after sometimes the hunger will comeback. Gluttony brings nothing but more gluttony or something similar to it then how come one becomes weary of receiving it when gurbani further tells us 'trishna virlai ki hi bhuji reh'. Further how can we consume/eat His gifts which are not eatable?
    Best regards
    Sahni Mohinder
     
  18. Ishna

    Ishna Above all, be rational
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    Sahni ji

    I've always interpreted the line "the great giver keeps on giving, while those who receive grow weary of receiving" or similar as more than just the gifts of food but of all sorts of gifts like warmth and experiences and beauty, money, the ability to work, the goodwill of others, etc. But no matter how well off someone is, or how much they receive, it will never be enough for the greedy and egotistical manmukh.

    God will keep giving to them (if that is It's Will) and yet the manmukh will get sick of the gifts and not care that they are constantly receiving them because enough is never enough.

    You've got to find contentment with your lot and remember that it all comes from God's Hukam and not take it for granted (ie. grow weary of receiving).

    That's been my understanding since I don't understand the gurmukhi and this ritual of eating until one is never hungry again is new to me of just this week!

    There appears to be value in most English translations even if they are not 100% accurate. Of course, due diligence must be applied since you don't want a crooked translation to become commonplace and extrapolations to be based upon it which then eventually in about 100 years twists the meaning right away from the original.

    Ishna
     
  19. sunmukh

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    Ek OnKaar Sat Naam

    SSA Ishna Bhen ji,

    It can become very frustrating for someone who has to rely upon translators' competency. I am in the same boat as you, as I only know how to speak lay punjabi, and cannot read it easily.

    It is great to see that you are making an effort see past any discrepancies. As you search for solutions, your intuitive awareness will rise.

    With regards to your intitial query, personally I am of opinion that one's understanding is better if one takes much more than one line into consideration, which is why Mcleod came up with his version. Sant Singh Khalsa's version is more literal, and depends more upon translation of individual words. Then the sihiris. biharis, onkars, etc all come into play, whereas a wider perspective will lead to much more disregard for technical or grammatical points.
    The route you choose depends on your own objective - ie whether you are seeking understanding of a Sikh path and practice in daily life, or are you seeking to know for knowledge's sake (ie an intellectual pursuit)

    The line you referred is within stanza one. That stanza is preceded by the slok to the Mool Mantar, which refers to the Absolute Truth. Jap ji Sahib is about Guru Nanak's search for that Absolute Truth. There are many references to Vedic principles and some Islamic principles, and possibly some Buddhist principles, depending on how you interpret text. However the techical aspects of other faiths pale into insignificance when one realises the direction in which Guru Nanak is taking the reader/his sikhs.
    IMHO, if one dwells on the technical points, then the direction is more easily missed.
    I take the essence of Pauri 1 to be as follows:

    "There is no way to attain consciousness of the Creator’s spirit, through illogical methods.The Creator cannot be realized as a result of deep thought, maintenance of silence, or by offering material gifts to the Creator (at any places of worship).Any other similar methods based in superstition, to try to reach out to the Creator, will make no difference to the end result.

    One should accept life as is. It is the way the Creator willed so."

    ( http://1search4oneness.wordpress.com/the-sikh-faith/japji-sahib/japji-sahib/ ) - A blog I am going to try to write my own thoughts on, as and when I get time.

    Ishna ji, there are two other things I would like to add in:

    A translation of a religious scripture is often written by somebody who has previously built up a perspective of that religion, due to his/her own understanding. The result is likely to be biased in some way or another, to a smaller or greater degree. Reading a variety (as you are doing) will reduce the effect, but not totally, if they are all written by people of that faith.

    Sikhs are generally averse to any links of their own faith to Vedic/Islamic/Buddhist principles. Generally, they reject them outright.
    However if you consider texts of some of these faiths, or even introductory synopsis of their principles, then you are likely to come across many common features and references. This does not necessarily imply they are being advocated or that they are being admonished, as result of the reference. The reference may simply be there because contributers to Gurbani were familiar with the terminology prevalent in those other faiths.
    I am speaking of terms like Truth, naam, 4 elements, 4 directions, world oceans, amrit, 3 qualities, 64 bathing places, 72000 nadis, chakras, central left and right channels, devis, khands, saadh-sangat etc etc. Much of these have deep meanings in Vedic philosophy, some cross into Buddhism and enter Sikhi as well. It does not mean they are meaningless, and it does not mean they are meanigful to a Sikh.They could be either.

    Now, I have to be careful here:
    If you read an introductory text on Krishna consciousness, then I am confident the insight you will get, will help you in understanding SGGS ji.

    There are many sources, on the internet, with thousands of texts, some free.

    One such text is:
    www.prabhupada.de/Books/pdf/SriIsopanisad.pdf

    It deals with a series of mantras, but reading the translation and the meanings will help you.
    Krishna consciousness is about love and devotion to one Godhead, and it is more about doing that than following particular technically and physically demanding practices, such as hatha -yoga. Sikhi is similar. There are differences, but the insight you will get by doing a comparative study will help you spot the differences and also understand why Gurbani is worded as it is.

    Some time ago, I was really puzzled why 3HO Sikhs followed Kundalini_Yoga practices. Then it all dawned on me. The yoga workshops set up in 60s and 70s were set up Hari Rama Hari Krishna types across the west in the hippy era. Most had to be vedic, but the yoga shops usually had little to do with Absolute Truth. Obviously some yoga practices of Western converts to Sikhi continued with them after hippy times ended, maybe because money can still be made. Now no-one bats an eyelid to these practices in Western Sikhs, yet they are not essential to Sikhi. The only thing of import is love for God. This is Guru Nanak's message and also common to Krishna consciouness:

    p874:




    Sat Sri Akal
     
    Ishna likes this.
  20. spnadmin

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    sunmukh ji

    I appreciate the time and the reflection that is obvious in your comments above. It is really important, as you seem to anticipate, that we are clear what you mean by this statement.

    I am understanding you to mean there are common concepts in Sri Guru Granth Sahib and other scriptures, in part because the Gurus and bhagats of SGGS were not only familiar with these concepts but were reaching out to the experience of the people of their times.

    It is a slippery slope to the argument that Sri Guru Granth Sahib is derived from earlier texts. I do not think you are saying that. Please understand that for us, our Guru has no bibliography of previous research. Our Guru is complete.

    Do not take my remarks as rebuke, but only to clarify matters.


    Many thanks
     
    Gyani Jarnail Singh likes this.
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