Philosophical (Western) Taoist and the Sikh.

Sat Sri Akal

I was contemplating the nature of Waheguru this morning and comparing (my) today's (ever changing) understanding to thoughts I have had in the past. In doing so I was thinking about the Tao. And the more I tried to contrast what I have learned of Sikhism to the Taoist way the harder it became. Admittedly Sikhism goes further than the Tao Te Ching, however I see that they are often in agreement even if their approaches are (at least superficially) different.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/interfaith-dialogues/25702-philosophical-western-taoist-and-the-sikh.html
If I stepped on toes I didn't mean to I would just like to hear opinions or site examples of where I am way off base.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=25702
(Please keep in mind the philosophical nature of the Tao is what I'm talking about not the Chinese folk religion part that as attached itself to the original philosophy.)

 
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1. The Way
2. Abstraction
3. Without Action
4. Limitless
5. Nature
6. Experience
7. Complete
8. Water
9. Retire
10. Harmony
11. Tools
12. Substance
13. Self
14. Mystery
15. Enlightenment
16. Decay and Renewal
17. Rulers
18. Hypocrisy
19. Simplify
20. Wandering
21. Accept
22. Home
23. Words
24. Indulgence
25. Beneath Abstraction
26. Calm
27. Perfection

1. Becoming
2. Ambition
3. Violence
4. Armies
5. Shapes
6. Virtues
7. Control
8. Peace
9. Opposition
10. Tranquillity
11. Ritual
12. Support
13. Motion and Use
14. Following
15. Mind
16. Overcoming
17. Contentment
18. Quiet
19. Horses
20. Knowing
21. Inaction
22. People
23. Death
24. Nurture
25. Clarity
26. Difficult Paths
27. Cultivate Harmony

1. Soft Bones
2. Impartiality
3. Conquer with Inaction
4. No End
5. Restraint
6. Demons
7. Submission
8. Sin
9. Difficulty
10. (a)Care at the Beginning/(b)Care at the End
11. Subtlety
12. Lead by Following
13. Unimportance
14. Compassion
15. Ambush
16. Individuality
17. Limitation
18. Revolution
19. Fate
20. Execution
21. Rebellion
22. Flexibility
23. Need
24. Yielding
25. Reconciliation
26. Utopia
27. The Sage

Thank you Namjap Ji. That is very helpful!

This morning (my most poetic/spiritual time) I thought that and introduction to the Tao is like plowing the fields of the mind. But like a plowed field the mind seeks more than just to be prepared. The Tao tends to leave you wanting more. It may bring a peace to the mind, a sense of understanding, but then leaves it in contemplation. Most often the heart desires an active practice. That is where and why Chinese folk religion(s) attached themselves to the Tao. But what if that next step is not the step into Chinese folk religion but what if it is to the Guru Granth Sahib? With the Guru Granth Sahib as a guide to prayer and further contemplation the mind that has been brought to an understanding is further enriched. The heart that desires participation is rewarded. Both having sought and found a connection with the divine. I feel that when Lao Tzu wrote he was bringing it to the curious mind. Guru Nanak brought it to the heart.

Self

Both praise and blame cause concern,
For they bring people hope and fear.
The object of hope and fear is the self

For, without self, to whom may fortune and disaster occur?

Therefore,
Who distinguishes himself from the world may be given the world,
But who regards himself as the world may accept the world.

Agreed.

Page 290, Line 19
ਤਬ ਹਰਖ ਸੋਗ ਕਹੁ ਕਿਸਹਿ ਬਿਆਪਤ ॥
तब हरख सोग कहु किसहि बिआपत ॥
Ŧab harakẖ sog kaho kisėh bi▫āpaṯ.
then who experienced joy and sorrow?
Guru Arjan Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

Please read the full pauri to see the similarity of concept.

The heart that desires participation is rewarded[quote

tell me more

About the comparisons between the two? I had given some thought to a Tao verse by verse comparison to the Gurbani but thought that may be overkill (not to mention a bit long). But perhaps that is not so much of what you are after. What would you like to know more about the "why" I think this (from a philosophical/theological stand point) or direct comparison of the primary works (Tao Te Ching and the Siri Guru Granth Sahib)?

I would think Ozarks ji that either way to answer would add to the conversation. You decide.

I am not really interested in comparison between these religions. I am more interested in knowing more about the line I quoted
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=25702

The heart that desires participation is rewarded[quote

I'm sorry Josh, I misunderstood. If I may I will quote myself:

"With the Guru Granth Sahib as a guide to prayer and further contemplation the mind that has been brought to an understanding is further enriched. The heart that desires participation is rewarded. Both having sought and found a connection with the divine."

It is my belief that the Way is in fact the natural order and the natural order is a reflection of the will of the Creator. As humans we tend to deceive ourselves by living our lives holding a mirror in front of our faces. This leads us to believe that we (or the all mighty "Me") is the center of all things. This leads us to put our desires and plans ahead of anyone else and ahead of the natural order, or the Creator's Will. This leads to a disharmony/discord. Disharmony will (eventually) turn on itself as a form of correction. This can lead to ruined plans, attitudes or lives.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=25702

If however we put down the mirror and see the Creation for what it is we may learn from it's Divine Harmony. (Divine because it reflects the Will of the Divine.) If we life my that harmony alone our lives would be much improved. We would be at a greater peace with ourselves. This is more in line with the animals in nature. (I know the argument that (all) animals don't live in peace. However they tend not to be self destructive and are driven by basic needs as opposed to feeding the ego.)
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=25702

But we, as humans, have the opportunity to not only see the natural order, but to give thanks and try to reach an even higher connection the the Creator of that order. In order to try to do that we have created theologies to attempt to begin to understand the Creator. My comparison of the Tao Te Ching and the Siri Guru Granth Sahib is positing that the Tao is a reflection of the Natural Order to attempt to become harmonious and glimpse the Will of the Creator, while the Siri Guru Granth Sahib points to the natural order in celebration of the Creator for the Creation. One flows naturally into the other. The Tao Te Ching prepares the mind, the Siri Guru Granth Sahib the heart.

I think I agree with you here. Sant Atar singh ji in sabha in Shiri harmandir sahib said thats its not control(keep it still) ones "Mun" by force. The real way; by following the, i like how u put it here, "natural" order Mun naturally flows into state called "Vus".

While Guru Sahib ji say that who which went(did something) to find God by themselves(without Guru) lost themselves.(might go in detail if asked)

Natural order, from my understanding, is the ever-so Nirmal Gursikhi, where Guru, by his grace shows us that God is in our own home/heart.
Divine Harmony also known as Hukam/bhana/will of the creater is one of early powri's in Japji Sahib and If I may be bold enough, one of the foundations of Sikhism.


This seems little confusing? Your response and I try to go back to heart that desire participation.