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Sikhism and Homosexuality

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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 19-Aug-2004, 20:35 PM
Kandola's Avatar Kandola Kandola is offline
 
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Question Sikhism and Homosexuality

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Whats are your thoughts on Homosexuality and Sikhi?

It could be either way.

for Homosexuality....
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/hard-talk/586-sikhism-and-homosexuality.html

1. you wont be judged on your sexuality but your deeds

2. if homosexuality is wrong, why did god create it?


Against it...

1. god made adam and eve for one another, not man for man, or woman for woman.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=586

2. why in the anand karaj does it say man and woman being united with god and not man for man or woman for woman.

your thoughts...
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  #2 (permalink)  
Old 20-Aug-2004, 13:01 PM
Kandola's Avatar Kandola Kandola is offline
 
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gays and sikhi

i dont deserve to be welcomed. i wont properly move to this forum, yet. i am still on sikhsangat.com.

we could argue being gay is ok and bad. i just want peoples opinions here. as written below...

oh and CC, try not to use the word "page", your reffering to maharaj as a "book", a direct insult. i am sure you never meant it like so. the correct term is "ang" meaning apart someone, in this case the gurus. therefore certain prayers can be found on limb.... (whatever).
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=586

id like someone opinion, do you think sikhi would allow homosexuality?


1. you wont be judged on your sexuality but your deeds

2. if homosexuality is wrong, why did god create it?


against it...

1. god made adam and eve for one another, not man for man, or woman for woman.

Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=586
2. why in the anand karaj does it say man and woman being united with god and not man for man or woman for woman. why just man for woman. when clearly their were lesbians during the time of the gurus?
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  #3 (permalink)  
Old 20-Aug-2004, 13:57 PM
Critical Singh's Avatar Critical Singh Critical Singh is offline
 
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Veerji, you dont have to shift bases to indulge in discussions. Welcoming a new member is a general courtesy. So, you are welcome to the forums.

Quote:
oh and CC, try not to use the word "page", your reffering to maharaj as a "book", a direct insult. i am sure you never meant it like so. the correct term is "ang" meaning apart someone, in this case the gurus. therefore certain prayers can be found on limb.... (whatever).
Breath easy veerji, so, do you think Maharaj can be insulted this way? ang or limb ? What do we mean by 'Panna' ? Doesn't this word in gurumukhi means 'Page' ?

Do you seriously think a non-sikh would understand such a terminology. Guru Maharaj resides in Shabad and even thinking of insulting Truth residing in Gurbani this is indigestable for me. Do you think the english translations on intenet in website www.gurugranthdarpan.com, using the word page are insulting Guru Maharaj ? I dont think so.

Quote:
id like someone opinion, do you think sikhi would allow homosexuality?

1. you wont be judged on your sexuality but your deeds
2. if homosexuality is wrong, why did god create it?
I still dont get the whole fuss over the issue. Nothing in this world acts without a reason or purpose and what is meaning of notion 'allow homosexuality' ? I think, Sikhi has nothing to do with it. Religion has nothing to do with it. Spirituality has nothing to do with it. That is why Guru Maharaj even did not bother to mention about this phenonmenon. Please quote so that i can amend my views. Any person can be a good Sikh as you said above..


Quote:
against it...

1. god made adam and eve for one another, not man for man, or woman for woman.

2. why in the anand karaj does it say man and woman being united with god and not man for man or woman for woman. why just man for woman. when clearly their were lesbians during the time of the gurus?
I have no reason to believe your first point. Bible says Adam and Eve decended on this earth only around 6000 years ago and they were the first man and woman... what about the humans born before them ? This theory has no validation in Sikhi. Gurbani clearly says "Aval Allah Noor Upaaya, Kudrat kae sab bandae, Aek noor tae sabb jag upjaeyaa, ko palae ko mandae"

Let us read and understand what Anand Karaj, institutionilsed in 1909 refers to... Do these Hymns really talk about union of man and woman or union two souls... ?

Lavan: Wedding Hymns

First Lavan

Har pehlrree laav parvirtee
Karam drirraya balram jeo.
Bani Brahama Ved dharm drirro
Paap tjaya balram jeo.
Dharam drirro Harnam dhiavo
Simrat naam drirraya.
Satgur Gur poora aarodho
Sabh Kilvikh paap gavayaa.
Sehaj anand hoa vadbhagi
Mun har har mitha laiyaa.
Jan kaheh Nanak laav pehlee
Arambh kaaj rachayaa. || 1 ||

Proceeding forth into the first nuptial round.

The Lord presents before you His instruction for the daily duties of marital life:
Rather than the Vedas or Brahma,
You are to recite the hymns of the Guru,
And be constant in the performance of your duty.
Thus the errors of the past shall be washed away.
Be confirmed in righeousness and
Repeat the Lordís Name.
The practice of the Name has been urged in the Smritis as well.
Reflect upon the True Guru, who is ever perfect.
And all your sins and misdeeds will leave you.
By the greatest good fortune the mind
And thoughts of the Lord are soothing to the mind.
Slave Nanak proclaims that in this first round.
The marriage ceremony has begun.


Second Lavan

Har doojrree laav Satgur purkh
Milaya balram jeo.
Nirbhao bhey mun hoey
Haomay meil gaviya balram jeo.
Nirmal bhao paya Har goon gaya
Har vekheh Ram hadooreh.
Har aatam Ram pasarial Suami
Sarab rihya bharpooray
Antar bahar Har Prabh eko
Mil Har jan mangal gaaeh
Jan Nanak dooji laav chlaaee
Unhudh Sabad vajaeh. || 2 ||

Comes the second nuptial round.
And the Lord has made you to meet the True Guru.
With your heart bound by the fear of the Fearless God.
All sense of pride has been washed from the mind.
Knowing the fear of God and singing His praises,
You behold His presence before you.
God, the Lord Master is the soul of the creation;
He pervades everywhere and fills all places with His Being.
Know then that there is One God, within us and without.
And His songs of rejoicing are heard in the company of His servants.
Nanak proclaims, that in this second nuptial round, the Divine Music is heard.


Third Lavan

Har teejrree laav man chao bhiya
Bairagia balram jeo
Sant jana Har mail Har paiya
Vadbhagia balram jeo
Nirmal Har paayia Hargoon gaiya
Mukh boli Har bani
Sant jina vadbhagi paaya
Har kathieh akath kahaani
Hirdai Har Har Har dhoon oopji
Har japieh mustak bhaag jeo
Jan Nanak boley tiji laaveh
Har oopjay mun bairaag jeo || 3 ||

In the third round the praises of the Lord fill my mind.
By the greatest good fortune you have come to meet the Lord God in the
company of the holy.
Singing His praises and speaking the Divine Word, the Immaculate Lord is
found.
It is by very great fortune
That the pious attain to the Lord
And tell that story which can never be told!
The music of God resounds within and we contemplate the Lord God:
For we have been blessed with a great destiny written upon our foreheads.
Slave Nanak proclaims that in this third round, the love of God has been
awakened in the heart.


Fourth Lavan

Har chaothree laav mun sehaj bhiya
Har paaiyua balram jeo.
Gurmukh milia Subhaey Har Mun
Tun mitha laaya balram jeo.
Har mitha laaya mereh Prabh bhaya
Undin Har livlaee.
Mun chindia phal paaya suami
Har Nam vaji vadhaaee.
Har prabh Thakur kaaj rachaiya
Dhun hirdey Nam vigasee.
Jan Nanak boley chaoteh laaveh
Har paaiya Prabh avnaasee. || 4 || 2 ||
In this fourth round,
The mind grasps the knowledge of the Divine,
And God is realized within.
By the Guruís Grace, we have reached the Lord with ease;
Our bodies and our souls are filled
With the tender delight of the Beloved.
I am a sacrifice unto my Lord.
God seems sweet to me and I have become pleasing to my Master.
He fills my thoughts all night and day.
I have obtained the object of my heartís desire - my Lord.
By praising His name I have gained the highest praise.
While the heart of the bride blooms and flowers with His Holy Name.
Slave Nanak proclaims, that in the fourth round we have found the Eternal Lord.

Post Wedding Hymn: Wiyah Hooa Mere Babla

My marriage is performed, Oí my father! By Guruís instruction I have obtained
God.
The darkness of my ignorance is removed. The Guru has blazed the very bright
light of Divine knowledge.
The Guru given Divine knowledge is shedding lustre and the darkness is
dispelled. I have therefore found the priceless gem of Godís Name.
My malady of ego has departed and my anguish is over.
Under Guruís instruction I myself have eaten up my self-conceit.
I have obtained God of immortal form, as my spouse. He is imperishable and so
dies or goes not. The marriage has been solemnized, Oí my father! and by
Guruís instruction, I have found God.


Its futile to dispute over these issues... they have nothing to do with religion or spirituality... Just my understanding on this topic.
Chardi Kala
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  #4 (permalink)  
Old 20-Aug-2004, 15:14 PM
Kandola's Avatar Kandola Kandola is offline
 
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ah, what i meant was, i am not going to be a permananet member of sikhphilosophy as yet. maybe some day, but not yet. but a nice welcome ji.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=586




Breath easy veerji, so, do you think Maharaj can be insulted this way? ang or limb ? What do we mean by 'Panna' ? Doesn't this word in gurumukhi means 'Page' ?

ang is the more politer word is all i am saying. by saying page, your reffering to maharaj as a book. in all gurdwaras you see the hukamnama followed by the word "ang", not page or panna, but ang. a limb of the guru it means.

Do you seriously think a non-sikh would understand such a terminology. Guru Maharaj resides in Shabad and even thinking of insulting Truth residing in Gurbani this is indigestable for me. Do you think the english translations on intenet in website www.gurugranthdarpan.com, using the word page are insulting Guru Maharaj ? I dont think so.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=586

hes on a sikhi site, he is here to learn, obviously he'll know now. well saying page is wrong. put it like that.

anyway, thanks for your input.
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  #5 (permalink)  
Old 20-Aug-2004, 23:41 PM
Arvind's Avatar Arvind Arvind is offline
 
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To some extent, I tend to agree with kandola ji to use actual terms.

Here is an Example:
I went to my daughter's day care, and one of the kids saw me and discussion was as follows:
Kid: What is this man wearing on his head?
Teacher: Thats a hat, my dear.
Kid: Oh ok. May I have one?
Me (To Kid): Sure
Me (To Kid and Teacher): This is called a turban
Teacher: This kid is too young to understand these terms. Doesnt make a difference to him.
Me: Well, I dont underestimate kids that much. They have the fastest learning curves. And they deserve to get correct information as much as possible.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=586

I dont know, if she got the point or not, but extending the same here, I agree the need to use correct terms. BTW, how many times, one has seen a person (of christian faith) saying for holy Bible, "This is our Guru Granth Sahib ji". But I find sikhs quick enough to respond, "This is like our Bible. We call this Guru Granth Sahib ji". Do you see the difference?
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=586

IMHO, So many translations have somehow lost the essence of original source.

Regards.
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  #6 (permalink)  
Old 23-Aug-2004, 23:06 PM
Arvind's Avatar Arvind Arvind is offline
 
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Just an add-on: IMHO, Though we use different terms (even if literally translated), doesnt lead to insults. It is a huge task to maintain webpaedia for beginners, learners, or all other different stages. But certainly, if one has come forward to really learn something, they deserve to get the actual terms, and with simple explanations or perhaps equivalents too.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=586
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=586

Thanks.
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Old 23-Aug-2004, 23:35 PM
Tejwant Singh's Avatar Tejwant Singh Tejwant Singh is online now
 
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Insult is when it is done on purpose. We all have different ways to express the same thing. When Jaskeerat was about 2, I used to let her sit on my lap while taking Hukum. She tore some of the pages but I did not feel she Insulted anyone or IK ONGKAAR. Little tape did the magic.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=586
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=586

It is silly to think that different words no matter how good the intention may be, are insulting to IK ONG KAAR.

How can one insult THE SOURCE??? Impossible.

Tejwant
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Old 23-Aug-2004, 23:48 PM
S|kH's Avatar S|kH S|kH is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kandola

id like someone opinion, do you think sikhi would allow homosexuality?


1. you wont be judged on your sexuality but your deeds

2. if homosexuality is wrong, why did god create it?


against it...

1. god made adam and eve for one another, not man for man, or woman for woman.

2. why in the anand karaj does it say man and woman being united with god and not man for man or woman for woman. why just man for woman. when clearly their were lesbians during the time of the gurus?
I have to argue with your first two points for being pro-gay..
You will also be judged by your sexuality, if there is judgement. Sex does not mean free wild-sex without protection or to face consequences. Sex is for pleasure, and also reproduction. Anything that comes too pleasurable besides hearing the Guru's shabad is against sikhi, correct? Too much sex, you will lose your correct mind-state and ability to focus on the truth.

and for the other point, I dont understand what your saying if you say God created homosexuality. That doesn't make sense...he didnt create homosexuality. Darwinism shows that only fitness level matters for a species. If you think God created Homosexuality, the same works for guns, right? So let a person fire a gun through someone else, and say God created me to have the ability to create guns.

The anatomy of humans clearly shows homosexuality is not something that was "created" for humans to perform.

Gay sex can only be for pleasure, they have a 0% chance of reproduction.
You think Sikhi would support this type of path? I think not.

I agree with your two points presented for being against Gays. The issue of God created Man for Woman, and Adam and Eve is the same as what I described above with the anatomy of humans and their ability to reproduce.

Your second point is also valid, and to answer the question, one must also think that there were many other things available during the Gurus times, yet our scripture states to refrain from use of such things as they change your mind-state. Sex and Lust are known to change the mind-state significantly.
I'm sure there were rapists and prostitutes (now known as Pornstars) during the Gurus time also. Gays are known to have more sexual partners because they have no fear for the consequence of pregnancy.

** edited for offensive intent **

Only my opinion, but I think Gays and Sikhi do not mix. Lust is against sikhi, I do not see how Gay Sex is anything different than lusting for another human.
-S|kH
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  #9 (permalink)  
Old 24-Aug-2004, 13:52 PM
Kandola's Avatar Kandola Kandola is offline
 
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S!kh, thank you for coming back, i now await CC's response to all this. i mean, everything that is on this earth, god created. if homosexuality is wrong, why did god make it? thats the point i believe you did not understand ji.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=586

and waheguruseeker, jaskeerat ji tore the limbs of guru ji. how would you like it if your limbs were torn off by accident?
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