Critical

Nirmaljot Baidwan · #1 (**permalink**) 31-Oct-2011, 00:53 AM

Hello Everyone,

As mentioned in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji , True Guru(SAT GURU) is of prime importance. To cross the Ocean of maya, we need the SHIP of NAAM and the sailor of that ship is SAT GURU or the true GURU.

Now What comes to my mind is that NAAM cannot be bound to a particular language or a particular religion, say Sikhism . If that was so then only Sikhs would have the privilege of sailing the ocean with the help of the ship of NAAM. I think NAAM cannot be bound to any written language, if it could be , it won't be true NAAM because if it belongs to a written language then Its scope is very limited because people who don't understand or cant read that particular language will be deprived of the NAAM.

The only point i want to make here is that NAAM cannot be found in a holy scripture, although the scripture can give us pointers towards what NAAM is. But by reciting some Shabads or Hymns one Cannot attain What One is Born to Attain or What this Human life is meant for.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/hard-talk/37393-critical.html

The NAAM must be meant for everyone because when Guru Sahib composed the GURBANI they addressed the human race as a whole, They did not address any particular group of people, so it must be something whose scope is global and its scope cannot be narrowed. It must be beyond writing or speaking.

Many people think that What is written in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is NAAM but i dont think its true. Bhagat Kabir's poetry has description of NAAM, Bhagat Beni Ji's bani has description of NAAM , Other bhagats also mention about NAAM and these shabads are present in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji , but they did not find it from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji because of the fact that at the time they composed those phrases Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji was not composed.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=37393
Here i mention Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji because Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji uses NAAM word more than any other holy scripture. Rather i'd say NAAM is used only in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji , cz i dont hav any knowledge about other scriptures and they seldom use it or they don't use it at all.

But the matter of the fact is that NAAM is something which is out of the scope of WRITING Or SPEAKING.

Ambarsaria · #2 (**permalink**) 31-Oct-2011, 01:06 AM

Veer Nirmaljot Baidwan ji thanks for your post. I agree with you that so called literal "naam" is of no consequence.

Way I see "naam" is an understanding of one creator and as much of it as possible. One will never be 100% as the creator is defined in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji as being infinite. Same way "naam" or for me developing understanding is a continuous exercise throughout our lives. Even more important than finding more of "naam" is to live with what one has found or understood.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=37393
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=37393

Just some thoughts.

Sat Sri Akal.

Scarlet Pimpernel · #3 (**permalink**) 31-Oct-2011, 02:36 AM

Quote:

Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji , True Guru(SAT GURU) is of prime importance. To cross the Ocean of maya, we need the SHIP of NAAM and the sailor of that ship is SAT GURU or the true GURU.

Veera I recall the Guru being described as a vessel but don't recall him being referred to as a sailor.

That Naam you seek is the current/wind that a clean-mann creates when it dwells on Gods True Word,whatever vessel you ride in you still need to take account of the current/wind or else you are just forcing your will (going against the current/wind.)

I know this does not explain where is Naam or where was it first ,but also if you ask where is current or wind it's not in one place and also in a few places at once.

Nirmaljot Baidwan · #4 (**permalink**) 31-Oct-2011, 09:17 AM

Scarlet Pimpernel

Quote:

That Naam you seek is the current/wind that a clean-mann creates when it dwells on Gods True Word,whatever vessel you ride in you still need to take account of the current/wind or else you are just forcing your will (going against the current/wind.)

According to what is mentioned in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji The Naam cannot be created or destroyed so its not that it is created by a clean-mann but yes it resides in clean mann. Naam is Not easy to obtain.

At many places in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji its mentioned that Naam is obtained by His Grace.

Quote:

That Naam you seek is the current/wind that a clean-mann creates when it dwells on Gods True Word

What is God's True Word???
Where can the True Word be Found???

These are the questions left un-answered. Time for introspection.

Ambarsaria · #5 (**permalink**) 31-Oct-2011, 10:19 AM

Nirmaljot Baidwan ji perhaps let us help each other and wonder as follows,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nirmaljot Baidwan

Scarlet Pimpernel
What is God's True Word???
Why it needs to be a word? Could it be an understanding which is unique to each one as they experience it but describe differently as each one is different. May be when we reach such stage it is experiential and not expressive.

Where can the True Word be Found???
Why it needs to be external to us. How do we find things inside of us. May be one would say "now I understand" and another may express it as "I found it".

Before we look for something which is pretty much unknown, if we call it something we have to be knowing, in your posts so called "true word". In a way you have given "naam" that you describe as futile a new name in "true word". Are we denying and accepting at the same time.

Perhaps worthwhile to define what our end objective is,

a rapture moment of "I found it"
an actual word(s) that you are looking for
a gradual understanding development of what is
or perhaps none of the above

Just some thoughts.

Please elaborate.

Sat Sri Akal.

Scarlet Pimpernel · #6 (**permalink**) 31-Oct-2011, 15:31 PM

Quote:

Where can the True Word be Found

Veer ji Just my personal view is that Naam is linked to the Truth,as in when someone says something true to you ,it rings true within you ,so you can say it was always with you,you just needed to realise it. Holy words are not superflous to the task they are essential because the Word plus Mann creates Naam, it's like a chemical reaction in the brain or spiritual reaction in the Soul,it can be gradual or instant ,but to understand we have to be lucky enough.

Time for retrospection

Nirmaljot Baidwan · #7 (**permalink**) 31-Oct-2011, 16:47 PM

Ambarsaria Ji

Quote:

What is God's True Word???
Why it needs to be a word?
(It Cannot be a word, that is what I'm saying, it has to be a power beyond WRITING OR SPEAKING. This is just a way of talking as guru sahibaan called it NAAM and WORD at places. The written or spoken naam cannot be considered as true naam as i said it cant be bound within language. )
Could it be an understanding which is unique to each one as they experience it but describe differently as each one is different.
(It can be an understanding but it does not seem to me that it could be different. Because every saint or guru that ever walked on the face of earth told the same thing over and over again. Does not matter what time they came in. But yes their way of explanation changed depending on the conditions that prevailed in their time.)

Quote:

Where can the True Word be Found???
Why it needs to be external to us. How do we find things inside of us.
(Did i say that true Word is external to us??? It is rather within us. It can be found only with the help of a living guru and it cannot be found written in a holy scripture like i previously said, so even if anybody recites shabads day and night , it doesnt mean he is enchanting the true naam or word.)
Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji clearly tells us that its within us but with Guru's mat it can be obtained.

Scarlet Pimpernel · #8 (**permalink**) 31-Oct-2011, 17:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nirmaljot

It Cannot be a word, that is what I'm saying, it has to be a power beyond WRITING OR SPEAKING.

Nirmal Veera ,Ambarsaria ji was asking both of us those questions,Let us Contemplate... what is word before you speak it and write it,when I say create, I mean create the conditions for it ,it manifests itself where there is the right grace.

Veera please don't forget to answer outside the quote ,I used to do it like you and was told off by the Cardinal ,as it is hard to distinguish,Peace and Love

harry haller · #9 (**permalink**) 31-Oct-2011, 19:46 PM

I am probably going to make myself unpopular with this one but here goes

To my mind Naam is a state of mind where you are connected with Creator. I would imagine it requires purity, focus, and a heartfelt desire to reflect the essence of Creator that resides within.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=37393

At this stage in my sikhi life, I refuse to have anything to do with it, the realisation of Naam through sewa and practical and pragmatic use of Gurbani is the road that I am taking, I do believe that Naam can be attained through this, I think the road is very individual, sewa, simran, a combination of the two, there are many ways to Naam, through many religions.

If we apply ourselves to the spirit of sikhi in our everyday lives, We start to do things not for fear, or self pleasure, but because they are simply the correct things to do, a bit like staying below the legal driving limit, not because we fear being caught by the traffic police, or so we can pat ourselves on the back and watch all the cars overtaking us and feel smug, no, we know we have reached Naam in this particular scenario when we stay below the speed limit for no other reason than it is the right decision, and our heart agrees with it.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=37393

For the record, I refuse to carry out simran as I have a fear that I will renounce the world if I did, I would get addicted to it, I would stop living, and stop interacting with Creation, I would simply immerse myself in this state and view everything else as Maya. However Sikhi states that we are householders as well as saints, so the only way in which I can find that balance is through the road I have chosen