Need Guidance in Understanding a Line from SGGS

hps · #1 (**permalink**) 03-May-2007, 13:23 PM

Dear friends/respondents

The following line appears in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

khu kbIr AKr duie BwiK ] (329-18, gauVI, Bgq kbIr jI)
Says Kabeer, chant the two letters of the Lord's Name - Raa Maa.

The English Translation appears to be slightly different than what appears on the face.Should one take the 'Naam' as 'Rama'.? To me the line , as tanslated, seems to be skewed.Is it a correct translation by some learned author and further is it ok. if one starts chanting 'Rama' instead of 'waheguru' in the light of the translation.

Would be ever grateful for the clarification.Kindly correct me in my inference as well.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurmat-vichaar/15297-need-guidance-in-understanding-line-sggs.html
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=15297
Regards
hps

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Cool · #2 (**permalink**) 04-May-2007, 00:25 AM

Dear Hps ji,
A nice question needs a similar reply.I have made an effort to explain 'Naam' and its relevance in the context of Sikh religion.It will answer your queries as well that you have on some other posts.
Your observation ,on the face of it, seems to be correct.The inference is ok.However,it is the Bani of Kabeer ji.He might have taken recourse to the naam of 'Rama'. In the case of sikhs the general reference is understood to be 'waheguru' and some suggest that even 'satnam' would be ok.There is no standardisation of 'naam' as such.Even 'waheguru' is not stated to be 'Naam'.It is in practice though.I am quoting below extracts of an Article and hope you will like it.God has many names and he can be remembered by any name.Read it and enjoy it. I have removed the material that contained reference to some researches. [I shall send you that article, if required.You may send a private message giving me your mail id]
In nut-shell
The Word, or the Divine Name, is the indwelling revealer of God. It is the cosmic Principle, the cause of all Creation and identified with the Holy Spirit and Creative Transformative Power of God. A Divine Name is the Divine Essence in one or the other of its infinite aspects. The Divine Essence is the One Universal Substance and is identical with Absolute Reality.

In Sikhism, philosophically, an identity of spirit is clearly recognised, based on the concept of the Logos, between the Divine Name (NAAM), or the Word of God, the spirit of the prophets and Gurus, and the Divine presence or the Light of God.
Naam-The Language of Divine Power
According to Guru Nanak everything in the universe is created by the power of Divine Name (NAAM) and without the Divine Name there is no way (The Japji, Pauri 19). He explains that all the visible forms are held by the Divine Name; everything takes its rise from the Divine Name and is again absorbed in it. The Divine Name is the essence of the four Vedas and is the repository of the True Reality. The Divine Name is synonymous with the Divine Word or Sabad.
God is the Ultimate Reality which has innumerable Names assigned to Him and the Names are identical with His being. There is no difference between His Being and His Name. The Name, Form and the essential Nature of God are the same; there is no difference between them – all the three are conscious and sublime bliss by nature. Guru Nanak says –

Hearkening to the Name bestows
Truth, divine wisdom, contentment,
To bathe in the joy of the Name
Is to bathe in the holy places. The Japji, Pauri 10.
Name and Potency
Name is the potency of God, who, in the pre-creation stage, existed without a Name. It is the agency through which God Creates. It is the spirit of God and the enlightened and purifier of the soul. Name has created everything in this universe.
Guru Nanak emphasizes on the recitation of the Divine Name (NAAM) which stands for God and His Creative Transformative Power and is the most powerful and effective means of attaining identity with the Divine Being. For attuning with God, Simran, or remembrance, and repeating of the Divine Name, or invocation, enables the disciple to reach that stage of absorption where he finds himself in His presence; it is a simple yet very efficacious method for internal spiritual growth of the disciple and supplies inexhaustible stores of energy and vitality for concentration and paves the way for reaching the Lord – the ultimate objective of one’s life.
All names to stand for God
All these names stand for the same God. To these Names of God more Names have been added by the Sikh Gurus, such as, Piara, Pritam, Mitter, Sajjan, Satguru, Waheguru, etc..
God belongs to all religions. He does not belong to any particular religion. This broader outlook of Guru Nanak led him to the conception of a secular God, and the rejection of a sectarian one. In the Sukhmani (Ashtpadi, 3, Pauri 8), Guru Arjun Dev affirms –

Of all Religions the best Religion is:

To utter the Holy Name with adoration,
And to do good deeds.

Waheguru and significance to Sikhs
However, now Waheguru – Wondrous Lord – has assumed a special significance as a name of God for the Sikhs as, for instance, Allah is for the Muslims, Ram and Ishwar for the Hindus. This development took place much after the formation of the Khalsa. Wahe-guru is not so much a name of God as the expression of the entire feeling of elation which man gets from an aesthetic experience of nature and of the cosmology.
Guru Nanak frequently uses the word ‘Sabad’ in place of the Divine Name. Sabad, or the Divine Word, is believed to have descended directly from the Divine Spirit, in which the Divine Knowledge is embodied and is the power and potency of God Himself. Therefore, Sabad, the Divine Word, the Divine Name and NAAM are synonymous with the True Reality. Says Guru Nanak, in Asa-di-Var:
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=15297

God created Himself
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=15297
And assumed a Name
Second, besides Himself,
He created Nature.
Seated in Nature He watches
With delight what He creates. Rag Asa (Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji-463)
If the Divine Word of the Guru remains in the heart of a disciple, it is believed, he is always free from any kind of fear, anxiety and pain; he remains indifferent to joy or grief and maintains his equanimity under the most stressful and trying conditions.
Word, or the Divine Name.
It is the way of His expression. The phenomenal world is the attribute with which God is described. The attributes of God can be found only in an outward expression or manifestation in the external world. Besides, it is through these attributes that God manifests His creative activities in the world. Therefore everything of this world is an aspect of the Divine Name, or the Word, to which it owes its existence.There is no value that is more valuable than the Name of God. The Divine Name is a priceless wealth, it is eternal and True. It cannot be destroyed by fire, death or any other means.Help youself with any type of 'Naam' the end result should be 'deliverance'.Hope you will enjoy this and should dispell your fears.
I have taken every care to check this for errors.However, english is not my first language.Hence the errors may be excused.
yours
cool
E&OE

Narayanjot Kaur · #3 (**permalink**) 04-May-2007, 02:15 AM

Cool ji
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=15297

Everything you say works for me.

hps · #4 (**permalink**) 04-May-2007, 12:08 PM

Thank you Sir, for your kind explanation.I have some doubts that are posted in some other thread.Would you be kind enough to let me have the understanding of those as well. These are all related to Naam and Shabad.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=15297
Regards
hps

Cool · #5 (**permalink**) 04-May-2007, 12:13 PM

Hi hps ji...ssa ji.
I would be willing to answer all your doubts.However, I am not any expert on these things but I do read.You may kindly put your questions here in this post itself.I shall make an attempt to the best of my knowledge.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=15297
thanks
coolwhspr

hps · #6 (**permalink**) 04-May-2007, 15:55 PM

Respected Cool ji

I am giving below my doubts as have been posted in some other thread and that I have not understood.You may kindly explain whenever you have the time.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=15297
What exactly is the meaning of 'Shabad' and 'Naam'.?These words have appeared in the entire Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji at many places.Kindly expand for the benefit of the viewers.It has appeared at so many places that it seems that 'Shabad' is not to mean as we ordinarily interpret.imilarly 'Naam' appears to have special meaning.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=15297

"ijin syivAw iqin pwieAw mwnu ]

Those who serve Him find the reality about Him (the proof of His existence), they are accepted gracefully at His Dargah and are liberated from the bondage."

The above is quoted for the benefit of discussion.

1.What is the exact meaning of 'who serve HiM'.What kind of service will be qualified to enable one to find the reality about HIM.Is the service to be made in some physical form like charity to poor or remembering HIM.KIndly explain?It appears that HE is to be served .Is it so.?Please help.

Thanks and regards.

hps

simpy · #7 (**permalink**) 04-May-2007, 16:43 PM

Respected cool ji ,

can you explain the following line more elaborately-

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cool

The attributes of God can be found only in an outward expression or manifestation in the external world.

by reading through all you wrote- the use of word 'only' in this line- makes the whole theory of yours fall apart, respected coolwhspr ji.

what about- Anaam, Niranjan, alekh, abhekh, Nirankaar, and many more attributes (in seen & unseen and outword & inward expression) .................................

sorry for the interruption..... ....... .........
to me neech it(this line) sounds exactly like Radha Swaami Shiv Dyaal Singh Ji's phylosophy..........
And 'GRACE OF GOD' aspect is totally missing in the whole writting of yours, respected coolwhspr ji, what happened to that part. as that is the most importanr one, without this aspect-NOTHING HAPPENS.........

Sikh phylosophy is neither totally equivalent to the Greek Concept of Logos, some major differences do exist between the two concepts. you may call it the nearest equivalent........
Sikh phylosophy cannot be called entirely based on Logos Concept......

Dear and Respected hps Ji,

these are your words from thread - Naam Simran and Shabads, you posted a couple of days ago....

Quote:

Originally Posted by hps

Hi..friends.
Gurbani is as simple as it is authored and compiled.We make it complicated ourselves.if we devote sometime, we are likely to understand most of it.there will always be some doubts about the meanings of some verses.There may also be some difficulty in integrating the contents with the contexts.well ,it shall remain as it ios comp[pilation.Same words have been used to employ different meanings at different places in Gurbani.
I also carried the notion that we are to understand the entire gurubani before we practice and integrate the concepts.I have stopped doing that and do my job with whatever little knowledge I possess.I think no one can dispell the doubts of another person. We shall do better by interpreting things in our own ways.It is like fighting your own battles. No one is better for one thinks that one understands better than another.It is not so.One can never be perfect.
It is only the meditation that can help us and can bring nearer to HIm.It is the essence of the entire Gurbani.We have to make efforts to purge and purify ourselves to attain HIs blessings.That seems to be the entire purpose of Gurbani.Remember HIm and do your job as is prescribed.It is not very useful to stick to the meaning of someone else.It is second hand knowledge.
Atleast I have stopped taking advice of others in the matter of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.
Yu will also do justice to yourself by doing the same.Does it matter if we do not and cannot make out some parts of Gurbani.I think it does not matter at all.Just meditate on His Naam.You may call HIm by any name.
Regards to all.
Bhul Chuk Maaf.
hps

no wonder you agreeing with all what respected Coolwhspr ji is saying even after declaring you have stoppped taking advice......

forgive me please

Cool · #8 (**permalink**) 04-May-2007, 20:53 PM

Limitations of Language in expression in Gurbani
Hi Hps ji,

I shall take up the questions that you have posed to me.It may kindly be noted that all of us are essentially students of Bani. We keep on learning and learning till we live.

Limitations on account of language: How's and Why's
What I percieve of a particular line may not be perceived the same by other.The simple reason for this can be explained by the fact that our knowledge of the language whether the first language or even our mother tongue is too little to effectively convery our thoughts into words or I should say that no language is too rich that it can vehiculate our thoughts in such a fashion that the interpretor or the reader of the script can debug the exact meaning that was thought to be conveyed.It is not a simple task at all.Be it English or Punjabi we are handicapped on account of these two reasons.
Diofference of perceptions
Even if want to convey the color of an apple we cannot do so exactly as an apple and its color cannot be described as it is not uniform over the entire body of the apple.We ,thus, cannot convey that we want to convey.The second difficulty arises on the fact of the non-standardisation of the vocabulary.In different parts of the worlds the same word can carry different shades and hence the meaning.There is every possibility that what has been modulated by the sender is not properly demodulated while downloading the message that is supposed to be conveyed.We have to convey our thoughts within this limitation that is put upon .If we were to sit face to face the things would have been simpler.
Limitations should not stop us from discussing
But then limitations should not govern us and guide us in our endeavours to convey that is to be conveyed. One should be armed with sufficient vocabulary so that we can atleast continue to exchange our thoughts.
lack of appreciation of Dialect
I have been prompted to write this that we are trying to discuss and explain something that was authored about five centuries ago.There may be difference of opinions on this count. However, the essential truth does not vary.Gurbani is authored in Gurmukhi lipi.However, the language is admixture of many types of dialects of the time.Hence the difficulty. What I interpret of particular may not be ,necessarily, acceptable to you. But then it does not empower you with a right to diacard the same. There will be ,atleast, meeting of minds on the essentials.Nor should one stick one's guns and be adament.We can differ in a manner that we are still friends and leave some scope of mutual discussion. There is no scope of an argument in these kinds of discussions.No one is superior in the matter of interpretations. It is only a theoretical knowledge that we are likely to share not the practical knowledge.We have our own expressions. If you differ with me you have all the rights to differ and let any one else also differ.It is not to effect you or me.We are all in a democratic set up and are all discussing something that has been respected by all intellectuals and philosphers.However, the language of Sri Guru Granth sahib cannot be debugged by ay individual.
It is not the monopoly of any body and none can ever say that.One would be foolish even to admit this.As 'bani' has been said to be 'Guru' in our scriptures and 'Guru' being ,something,beyond explanations and descriptions I have all the presumptions and presuppositions that we should peacefully carry on with our task of understanding each other's point of view and increase our visible power and power to landscape the dry terrain of our grey cells that lie in the organ called brain which is also have a direct linkage with our so called mind.Our intellect is primarily governed by our mind power and interpreted in consonance by our brain that has 12 billion tiny cells.Each cell is interconnected with the other thru synpase.Such is our wonderful body and such a wonderful is our creator.If HE has given us such organs that are beyond description it leads to the fact that man made things are likely to be far from perfection.My language may have hurt someone.It is none of mine or someone's fault.It is always like this only.It is just like explaining of an elephant by the five blind persons.None acclaimed better knowledge of the elephant as they perceived that part to be an elephant that they touched and felt. Similarly our knowledge is so limited that we cannot interpret Gurbani in exactly the same fashion as was intended to have been authored when it was authored.There are practical difficulties. But one does make an attempt in one's humble manner.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=15297
Lack of early Translations of scriptures
These difficulties have amplified on account of the fact that there is not proper translation of scriptures that should have been done at the time when it was authored.things would have been simpler if some had taken the effort about five centuries ago. In any case there is a problem area and we should all recognise this.Hence that what one write may not mean the same that the author intended to have been meant.Hence there has to be in built margin of error aand benefit of doubt to be given to the person. In all humility I should have done this to anyone.In fact one should stop fault finding approach that some of my friend do adopt.This is not a school and none is superior to another even if one believes it to be so.

The best way is to avoid fault finding in the field of religion or sprituality as both do mingle at some point or the other.

I shall start with this background only with a clear understanding that fault finding is not the pre rogative that anyone can have on account of any misconception that one carries.It is may not be tolerable to some human being.

Questions asked

"What exactly is the meaning of 'Shabad' and 'Naam'.?These words have appeared in the entire Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji at many places.Kindly expand for the benefit of the viewers.It has appeared at so many places that it seems that 'Shabad' is not to mean as we ordinarily interpret.Similarly 'Naam' appears to have special meaning. "
I shall revert back to your question after sometime if there is no intermittent interruption.It will require some home work and I am very grateful to you for providing me an opportunity of learning and revising my concepts.Pl. carry on with your meditation ,that is more important than theory.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=15297
kindly excuse me for mistakes . I shall edit it tomorrow,if it is feasible.I take yoour leave now.
Coolwhspr

simpy · #9 (**permalink**) 04-May-2007, 21:36 PM

Respected coolwhspr Ji,

very kind words,
FYI- Base Meaning of Gurbani doesn't change, One cannot say that Guru's Phylosophy is based on Logos, beacuse he/she thought so. Waheguru is God- can we change that truth?
Guru is God, Gurbani is Nirankaar, All the aspects of God described in Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji cannot be changed, ONLY WORDS CHANGE according to Language. BUT EVERY LANGUAGE HAS SOMTHING, may not be exact but something(some word) there that can be used.

Nobody is stopping you to post your views, but questions will be asked and explanations may also be given when something doesn't appear to be according to Gurmat..... one must be ready to share others opinion, when sharing his/her own opinion on a public forum.

We are humans and are talking in HUMAN LANGUAGE. WATER REMAINS WATER- doesn't matter what language we speak, respected coolwhspr ji.....

as none of my previous questions were answered, i am humbly repeating them once again:

can you explain the following line more elaborately-

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cool

The attributes of God can be found only in an outward expression or manifestation in the external world.

by reading through all you wrote- the use of word 'only' in this line- makes the whole theory of yours fall apart, respected coolwhspr ji.

what about- Anaam, Niranjan, alekh, abhekh, Nirankaar, and many more attributes (in seen & unseen and outword & inward expression) .................................

sorry for the interruption..... ....... .........
to me neech it(this line) sounds exactly like Radha Swaami Shiv Dyaal Singh Ji's phylosophy..........
And 'GRACE OF GOD' aspect is totally missing in the whole writting of yours, respected coolwhspr ji, what happened to that part. as that is the most importanr one, without this aspect-NOTHING HAPPENS.........

Sikh phylosophy is neither totally equivalent to the Greek Concept of Logos, some major differences do exist between the two concepts. you may call it the nearest equivalent........
Sikh phylosophy cannot be called entirely based on Logos Concept......

i may humbly ask more questions based on the above post later, as these ones are answered.....

humbly asking for everybody's forgiveness