Sikhism/Gurmatt Nankian Philosophy: A Totally New and Unique Path to the Creator

Respected Gyani Jio
Guru Fateh ! How are you?
I missed SPN for a couple of weeks, glad to read your recent posts today.
I am totally surprised to read your above post. At the end of your post, there is rolling eyes symbols that make me roll my eyes. With all due respect, now my question to you is this
Are we discussing only what Gurbani teaches us in context of becoming better or also Dr Baldev Singh Ji’s own views that says Guru Nanak rejects rebirths or incardination?
The thread started by you with his article, Mohinder Singh Sahni ji questioned Dr Sahib’s claim about rejection of rebirths by Guru Nanak; I gave many examples of Guru Vakas that verify Gurus faith in rebirths. It is a part of discussion, how we can accept Dr Sahib Ji’s own coined statement Guru when Guru is very clear in this context? There is no pick and choose in Gurbani, whatever is there must be accepted without overwriting Guru as Dr Baldev Sin gh ji did. Nothing is wrong with rebirth concept, pure reasoning questions the existence of Waheguru too, we dont honor that but accept what our Guru says about Him

Regards
G Singh

 
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__________________

Har Bisrat Sda Khuari - Mehla 5

Regards,
G. Singh

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Dalbirk ji,

Guru Fateh.

Your are confused between acknowledgement and acceptance. Our Gurus acknowledged that Hindus believe in reincarnation. Guru Nanak acknowledged Hindus wearing and believing in Janeius.He also acknowledged that Hindus believe when they throw water towards the Sun , it reaches it. However they never accepted all to be true for Sikhi. If one reads Gurbani after the acknowledgement of the beliefs in re- births in Hinduism, our Gurus mention that for a person on a Sikhi marg, reincarnation ceases to exist. It is only a belief which can change anytime.It is not a fact. If it were a fact then our Gurus would have mentioned what they were in their previous births. And you own ancestors would have come back to tell you all about it.

So, I do not think you have offended anyone but failed to understand the difference between acknowledgement and acceptance, belief and fact. Sikhi is based on reasoning, not on any blind faith.

Tejwant Singh

Most Respected PK70 Ji,
Gurfateh.

Welcome Back Ji..you may not be aware how much you are missed.

I have not replied directly to either Your posts or Veer Ji Sahni jis posts..not because I am not interested/unable/or any other reason..simply because i know where you and sahni ji are coming from.
I also know from where Dr baldev Singh ji si coming from and what he is trying to put forward...
Look at it this Way.... For ME gurbani si agadh BODH..it has got so much more than i can ever understand...i have been able to just skim the surface so far....others may be a little deeper..but thats about it...NO ONE has been able to search the very BOTTOM of this ocean..except those who wrote it.
I dont pretend to know all the answers..and dont pretend to know nothing... I am somewhere in between...on the Path...

I teach the Simple Gurbani to Simple folks...who have "simple questions" and I provide the simple answers.
I teach "simpe Maths...add minus..divide..multiply... and not the Einstein Theory of relativity..or Big bang theory etc or how the light curve in a hubble photo cna be calculated to show a hidden star existed there billions of years ago.. which can be argued back and forth until the end of time. When my students ask me..Gyani ji IF the sun is bigger than the Moon..why is it about the same size when we watch the eclipse...it doesnt look millions of times bigger..I know and everybody knows the answer...but its pointless ...IF DELHI is so much nearer why cant i see it from my kotha while i can see the sun..supposedly millions of miles further than Delhi..etc etc.

My "purpose" in Life is to Live the Gurbani and make it seem REAL in terms of practical life to my students...make them see "what they can see" rather than be absolutley correct and make them see what they "should see"...
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/essays-on-sikhism/24130-sikhism-gurmatt-nankian-philosophy-totally-new.html

How can I answer How a DOG is supposed to get muktee ?? a dog cannot read Gurbani..can it understand kiratn..can it get muktee if t stays at the Gurdawra ?? WHY God didnt make any effort to write"dog gurbani"..? These are questions that do come up..children ask them..adults woudl ask them too if they ddnt feel so stupid ?? Do dogs have prophets..why not ?? where is it written ?? when will their tiem for muktee come...sakhis of Gurus giving muktee to animals by killing them..why >?? How about the sakhi about baba nand Singhs dog..that got muktee by eating his jhoothee roti.....? is it true ? how why where in Gurbani is it...etc etc. why that particular dog..and only one ?/
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=24130

My daily JOB is to read..understand up to my own level..search what others have understood..collate and put it to my students..and we all chip in and discuss...everyone exhausts all his know-how..and we go home happy and satisfied..UP TO A POINT. Thats is the very best i can accomplish and I am happy.

I guarantee YOU and sahni ji..tand Tejwant Ji.....that i DO READ and try to Understand what each poster writes..i take what is Gurmatt ( to my tuchh budhee) and leave the rest...till maybe the day comes when Guru Jis Kirpa drishtee descends and i can "see" some more...GYAAN. I donot beleive in being stubborn that only i know all...if i realise a mistake..i will be the first to admit it..no harm in it.

No offense intended to any...I graciously ACCEPT all as helping my journey towards GYAAN.

Dear Tejwant Ji ,
Can u translate the following Shabad otherwise ? Here I'm giving u this Shabad from page 1019-1020 of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji using Prof.Sahib Singh Ji's translation .IMHO in this Shabad , Guru Sahib defines who die & born again & Guru Sahib is clearly accepting rebirth ( though 84 lacs lives may be just a symbolic number )


Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji 1019-20


ਮਾਰੂ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥ ਬਿਰਖੈ ਹੇਠਿ ਸਭਿ ਜੰਤ ਇਕਠੇ ॥ ਇਕਿ ਤਤੇ ਇਕਿ ਬੋਲਨਿ ਮਿਠੇ ॥ ਅਸਤੁ ਉਦੋਤੁ ਭਇਆ ਉਠਿ ਚਲੇ ਜਿਉ ਜਿਉ ਅਉਧ ਵਿਹਾਣੀਆ ॥੧॥
Mārū mėhlā 5. Birkẖai heṯẖ sabẖ janṯ ikṯẖe. Ik ṯaṯe ik bolan miṯẖe. Asaṯ uḏoṯ bẖa▫i▫ā uṯẖ cẖale ji▫o ji▫o a▫oḏẖ vihāṇī▫ā. ||1||
Maru 5th Guru. Under the tree of the world, all the beings have gathered together. Some are hot-tempered and some speak with sweet voice. When the sun rises at the end of night, they get up and march off, when their life ends.
ਬਿਰਖ = ਰੁੱਖ। ਸਭਿ = ਸਾਰੇ। ਇਕਿ = {ਲਫ਼ਜ਼ 'ਇਕ' ਤੋਂ ਬਹੁ-ਵਚਨ}। ਤਤੇ = ਖਰ੍ਹਵੇ, ਤਿੱਖੇ। ਬੋਲਨਿ = ਬੋਲਦੇ ਹਨ। ਅਸਤੁ = ਡੁੱਬਾ ਹੋਇਆ (ਸੂਰਜ)। ਉਦੋਤੁ ਭਇਆ = ਉਦੈ ਹੁੰਦਾ ਹੈ, ਅਕਾਸ਼ ਵਿਚ ਚੜ੍ਹ ਪੈਂਦਾ ਹੈ। ਉਠਿ = ਉੱਠ ਕੇ। ਅਉਧ = ਉਮਰ। ਵਿਹਾਣੀਆ = ਬੀਤ ਜਾਂਦੀ ਹੈ।੧।

(ਹੇ ਭਾਈ! ਜਿਵੇਂ ਸੂਰਜ ਡੁੱਬਣ ਵੇਲੇ ਅਨੇਕਾਂ ਪੰਛੀ ਕਿਸੇ ਰੁੱਖ ਉਤੇ ਆ ਇਕੱਠੇ ਹੁੰਦੇ ਹਨ, ਇਸੇ ਤਰ੍ਹਾਂ) ਇਸ ਆਕਾਸ਼-ਰੁੱਖ ਹੇਠ ਸਾਰੇ ਜੀਵ-ਜੰਤ ਆ ਇਕੱਠੇ ਹੋਏ ਹਨ, ਕਈ ਖਰ੍ਹਵੇ ਬੋਲਦੇ ਹਨ ਕਈ ਮਿੱਠੇ ਬੋਲ ਬੋਲਦੇ ਹਨ। ਡੁੱਬਾ ਹੋਇਆ ਸੂਰਜ ਜਦੋਂ ਆਕਾਸ਼ ਵਿਚ ਮੁੜ ਚੜ੍ਹ ਪੈਂਦਾ ਹੈ ਤਾਂ (ਪੰਛੀ ਰੁੱਖ ਉਤੋਂ) ਉੱਠ ਕੇ ਉੱਡ ਜਾਂਦੇ ਹਨ (ਤਿਵੇਂ ਹੀ) ਜਿਉਂ ਜਿਉਂ (ਜੀਵਾਂ ਦੀ) ਉਮਰ ਮੁੱਕ ਜਾਂਦੀ ਹੈ (ਪੰਛੀਆਂ ਵਾਂਗ ਇਥੋਂ ਕੂਚ ਕਰ ਜਾਂਦੇ ਹਨ)।੧।


ਪਾਪ ਕਰੇਦੜ ਸਰਪਰ ਮੁਠੇ ॥ ਅਜਰਾਈਲਿ ਫੜੇ ਫੜਿ ਕੁਠੇ ॥ ਦੋਜਕਿ ਪਾਏ ਸਿਰਜਣਹਾਰੈ ਲੇਖਾ ਮੰਗੈ ਬਾਣੀਆ ॥੨॥
Pāp kareḏaṛ sarpar muṯẖe. Ajrā▫īl faṛe faṛ kuṯẖe. Ḏojak pā▫e sirjaṇhārai lekẖā mangai bāṇī▫ā. ||2||
They who commit sins, are assuredly plundered. Azrail the mymidon of death, seizes and tortures them to death. They are cast into hell by the creator and the Righteous judge calls them to account.
ਕਰੇਦੜ = ਕਰਨ ਵਾਲੇ। ਸਰਪਰ = ਜ਼ਰੂਰ। ਮੁਠੇ = ਮੁੱਠੈ, ਲੁੱਟੇ ਜਾਂਦੇ ਹਨ, ਆਤਮਕ ਜੀਵਨ ਦਾ ਸਰਮਾਇਆ ਲੁਟਾ ਬੈਠਦੇ ਹਨ। ਅਜਰਾਈਲਿ = ਅਜਰਾਈਲ ਨੇ, ਮੌਤ ਦੇ ਫ਼ਰਿਸ਼ਤੇ ਨੇ {ਨੋਟ: ਇਹ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਕਿਸੇ ਮੁਸਲਮਾਨ ਦੇ ਪਰਥਾਇ ਹੈ}। ਫੜੇ ਫੜਿ = ਫੜਿ ਫੜਿ, ਫੜ ਕੇ ਫੜ ਕੇ, ਫੜ ਫੜ ਕੇ। ਕੁਠੇ = ਕੁੱਠੇ, ਕੁਹ ਸੁੱਟੇ। ਦੋਜਕਿ = ਦੋਜ਼ਕ ਵਿਚ। ਮੰਗੈ = ਮੰਗਦਾ ਹੈ {ਇਕ-ਵਚਨ}। ਬਾਣੀਆ = ਕਰਮਾਂ ਦਾ ਲੇਖਾ ਲਿਖਣ ਵਾਲਾ ਧਰਮਰਾਜ।੨।

ਹੇ ਭਾਈ! ਇਥੇ ਪਾਪ ਕਰਨ ਵਾਲੇ ਜੀਵ (ਆਪਣੇ ਆਤਮਕ ਜੀਵਨ ਦਾ ਸਰਮਾਇਆ) ਜ਼ਰੂਰ ਲੁਟਾ ਜਾਂਦੇ ਹਨ, ਪਾਪ ਕਰਨ ਵਾਲਿਆਂ ਨੂੰ ਮੌਤ ਦਾ ਫ਼ਰਿਸ਼ਤਾ ਫੜ ਫੜ ਕੇ ਕੁਹੀ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ (ਇਹ ਯਕੀਨ ਜਾਣੋ ਕਿ ਅਜਿਹਾਂ ਨੂੰ) ਸਿਰਜਣਹਾਰ ਨੇ ਦੋਜ਼ਕ ਵਿਚ ਪਾ ਰੱਖਿਆ ਹੈ, ਉਹਨਾਂ ਪਾਸੋਂ ਧਰਮਰਾਜ (ਉਹਨਾਂ ਦੇ ਕੀਤੇ ਕਰਮਾਂ ਦਾ) ਲੇਖਾ ਮੰਗਦਾ ਹੈ।੨।


ਸੰਗਿ ਨ ਕੋਈ ਭਈਆ ਬੇਬਾ ॥ ਮਾਲੁ ਜੋਬਨੁ ਧਨੁ ਛੋਡਿ ਵਞੇਸਾ ॥ ਕਰਣ ਕਰੀਮ ਨ ਜਾਤੋ ਕਰਤਾ ਤਿਲ ਪੀੜੇ ਜਿਉ ਘਾਣੀਆ ॥੩॥
Sang na ko▫ī bẖa▫ī▫ā bebā. Māl joban ḏẖan cẖẖod vañesā. Karaṇ karīm na jāṯo karṯā ṯil pīṛe ji▫o gẖāṇī▫ā. ||3||
No brother or sister accompanies them. Leaving behind their property, youth and wealth they march off. They know not their kind and Beneficent Creator Lord and shall be pressed like the basketful of sesame.
ਸੰਗਿ = (ਪਰਲੋਕ ਵਲ) ਨਾਲ। ਭਈਆ = ਭਰਾ। ਬੇਬਾ = ਭੈਣ। ਜੋਬਨੁ = ਜਵਾਨੀ। ਛੋਡਿ = ਛੱਡ ਕੇ। ਵਞੇਸਾ = ਤੁਰ ਪਏਗਾ। ਕਰੀਮ = ਬਖ਼ਸ਼ਸ਼ ਕਰਨ ਵਾਲਾ। ਕਰਣ ਕਰਤਾ = ਜਗਤ ਦਾ ਰਚਨਹਾਰ। ਜਾਤੋ = ਜਾਣਿਆ, ਸਾਂਝ ਪਾਈ। ਘਾਣੀ = ਕੋਲ੍ਹੂ ਵਿਚ ਪੀੜਨ ਵਾਸਤੇ ਇਕ ਵਾਰੀ ਜੋਗੇ ਪਾਏ ਹੋਏ ਤਿਲ।੩।

ਹੇ ਭਾਈ! (ਜਗਤ ਤੋਂ ਕੂਚ ਕਰਨ ਵੇਲੇ) ਨਾਹ ਕੋਈ ਭਰਾ ਨਾਹ ਕੋਈ ਭੈਣ ਕੋਈ ਭੀ ਜੀਵ ਦੇ ਨਾਲ ਨਹੀਂ ਜਾਂਦਾ। ਮਾਲ, ਧਨ, ਜਵਾਨੀ-ਹਰੇਕ ਜੀਵ ਜ਼ਰੂਰ ਛੱਡ ਕੇ ਇੱਥੋਂ ਚਲਾ ਜਾਇਗਾ। ਜਿਨ੍ਹਾਂ ਮਨੁੱਖਾਂ ਨੇ ਜਗਤ ਰਚਨਹਾਰ ਬਖ਼ਸ਼ਿੰਦਾ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਨਾਲ ਡੂੰਘੀ ਸਾਂਝ ਨਹੀਂ ਪਾਈ, ਉਹ (ਦੁੱਖਾਂ ਵਿਚ) ਇਉਂ ਪੀੜੇ ਜਾਂਦੇ ਹਨ ਜਿਵੇਂ ਤਿਲਾਂ ਦੀ ਘਾਣੀ।੩।


ਖੁਸਿ ਖੁਸਿ ਲੈਦਾ ਵਸਤੁ ਪਰਾਈ ॥ ਵੇਖੈ ਸੁਣੇ ਤੇਰੈ ਨਾਲਿ ਖੁਦਾਈ ॥ ਦੁਨੀਆ ਲਬਿ ਪਇਆ ਖਾਤ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਅਗਲੀ ਗਲ ਨ ਜਾਣੀਆ ॥੪॥
Kẖus kẖus laiḏā vasaṯ parā▫ī. vekẖai suṇe ṯerai nāl kẖuḏā▫ī. Ḏunī▫ā lab pa▫i▫ā kẖāṯ anḏar aglī gal na jāṇī▫ā.. ||4||
Happily, happily snatches thou other's goods, but God who is with thee, sees and hears thee. Through worldly avarice, thou has fallen into a pit and know not the thing of the future.
ਖੁਸਿ ਖੁਸਿ = ਖੋਹ ਕੇ ਖੋਹ ਕੇ, ਖੋਹ ਖੋਹ ਕੇ। ਪਰਾਈ = ਬਿਗਾਨੀ। ਵਸਤੁ = ਚੀਜ਼। ਖੁਦਾਈ = ਖ਼ੁਦਾ, ਰੱਬ। ਦੁਨੀਆ ਲਬਿ = ਦੁਨੀਆ ਦੇ ਲੱਬ ਵਿਚ; ਦੁਨੀਆ ਦੇ (ਸੁਆਦ ਦੇ) ਚਸਕੇ ਵਿਚ। ਖਾਤ = ਟੋਆ। ਗਲ = ਗੱਲ। ਅਗਲੀ = ਅਗਾਂਹ ਵਾਪਰਨ ਵਾਲੀ।੪।

ਹੇ ਭਾਈ! ਤੂੰ ਪਰਾਇਆ ਮਾਲ-ਧਨ ਖੋਹ ਖੋਹ ਕੇ ਇਕੱਠਾ ਕਰਦਾ ਰਹਿੰਦਾ ਹੈਂ, ਤੇਰੇ ਨਾਲ ਵੱਸਦਾ ਰੱਬ (ਤੇਰੀ ਹਰੇਕ ਕਰਤੂਤ ਨੂੰ) ਵੇਖਦਾ ਹੈ (ਤੇਰੇ ਹਰੇਕ ਬੋਲ ਨੂੰ) ਸੁਣਦਾ ਹੈ। ਤੂੰ ਦੁਨੀਆ (ਦੇ ਸੁਆਦਾਂ) ਦੇ ਚਸਕੇ ਵਿਚ ਫਸਿਆ ਪਿਆ ਹੈਂ (ਮਾਨੋ ਡੂੰਘੇ) ਟੋਏ ਵਿਚ ਡਿੱਗਾ ਹੋਇਆ ਹੈਂ। ਅਗਾਂਹ ਵਾਪਰਨ ਵਾਲੀ ਗੱਲ ਨੂੰ ਤੂੰ ਸਮਝਦਾ ਹੀ ਨਹੀਂ।੪।


ਜਮਿ ਜਮਿ ਮਰੈ ਮਰੈ ਫਿਰਿ ਜੰਮੈ ॥ ਬਹੁਤੁ ਸਜਾਇ ਪਇਆ ਦੇਸਿ ਲੰਮੈ ॥ ਜਿਨਿ ਕੀਤਾ ਤਿਸੈ ਨ ਜਾਣੀ ਅੰਧਾ ਤਾ ਦੁਖੁ ਸਹੈ ਪਰਾਣੀਆ ॥੫॥
Jam jam marai marai fir jammai. Bahuṯ sajā▫e pa▫i▫ā ḏes lammai. Jin kīṯā ṯisai na jāṇī anḏẖā ṯā ḏukẖ sahai parāṇī▫ā. ||5||
Thou shall be repeatedly born and die and be born again. thou shall suffer much punishment on thy way to the distant country. The blind mortal knows not Him who made him, wherefore he shall suffer pain,
ਜਮਿ = ਜੰਮਿ, ਜੰਮ ਕੇ। ਜਮਿ ਜਮਿ ਮਰੈ = ਮੁੜ ਮੁੜ ਜੰਮ ਕੇ (ਮੁੜ ਮੁੜ) ਮਰਦਾ ਹੈ, ਜਨਮ ਮਰਨ ਦੇ ਗੇੜ ਵਿਚ ਪੈ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ। ਸਜਾਇ = ਸਜ਼ਾ, ਦੰਡ। ਦੇਸਿ ਲੰਮੈ = ਲੰਮੇ ਦੇਸ ਵਿਚ, (ਮਰਨ ਮਰਨ ਦੇ ਗੇੜ ਦੇ) ਲੰਮੇ ਪੈਂਡੇ ਵਿਚ। ਜਿਨਿ = ਜਿਸ (ਪ੍ਰਭੂ) ਨੇ। ਕੀਤਾ = ਪੈਦਾ ਕੀਤਾ। ਅੰਧਾ = (ਮਾਇਆ ਦੇ ਮੋਹ ਵਿਚ) ਅੰਨ੍ਹਾ (ਹੋਇਆ ਮਨੁੱਖ)। ਤਾ = ਤਾਂ, ਤਾਂਹੀਏਂ। ਸਹੈ = ਸਹਾਰਦਾ ਹੈ। ਪਰਾਣੀਆ = ਪਰਾਣੀ, ਜੀਵ।੫।

ਹੇ ਭਾਈ! ਜਦੋਂ ਮਨੁੱਖ (ਮਾਇਆ ਦੇ ਮੋਹ ਵਿਚ) ਅੰਨ੍ਹਾ (ਹੋ ਕੇ) ਉਸ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਨਾਲ ਸਾਂਝ ਨਹੀਂ ਪਾਂਦਾ ਜਿਸ ਨੇ ਇਸ ਨੂੰ ਪੈਦਾ ਕੀਤਾ ਹੈ, ਤਦੋਂ ਇਹ (ਜਨਮ ਮਰਨ ਦੇ ਗੇੜ ਦਾ) ਦੁੱਖ ਸਹਿੰਦਾ ਹੈ, ਇਸ ਨੂੰ ਬਹੁਤ ਸਜ਼ਾ ਮਿਲਦੀ ਹੈ, ਇਹ (ਜਨਮ ਮਰਨ ਦੇ ਗੇੜ ਦੇ) ਲੰਮੇ ਪੈਂਡੇ ਵਿਚ ਪੈ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ, ਇਹ ਮੁੜ ਮੁੜ ਜੰਮ ਕੇ (ਮੁੜ ਮੁੜ) ਮਰਦਾ ਹੈ, ਜਨਮ ਮਰਨ ਦੇ ਗੇੜ ਵਿਚ ਪੈ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ।੫।


ਖਾਲਕ ਥਾਵਹੁ ਭੁਲਾ ਮੁਠਾ ॥ ਦੁਨੀਆ ਖੇਲੁ ਬੁਰਾ ਰੁਠ ਤੁਠਾ ॥ ਸਿਦਕੁ ਸਬੂਰੀ ਸੰਤੁ ਨ ਮਿਲਿਓ ਵਤੈ ਆਪਣ ਭਾਣੀਆ ॥੬॥
Kẖālak thāvhu bẖulā muṯẖā. Ḏunī▫ā kẖel burā ruṯẖ ṯuṯẖā. Siḏak sabūrī sanṯ na mili▫o vaṯai āpaṇ bẖāṇī▫ā. ||6||
Forgetting his Creator, man is ruined. The play of the world is bad The mortal is sometimes sad and sometimes happy. To learn from him the lesson of faith and contentment, the mortal meets not the saint and wanders as it pleases him.
ਖਾਲਕ = ਖ਼ਾਲਕ, ਪੈਦਾ ਕਰਨ ਵਾਲਾ। ਥਾਵਹੁ = ਥਾਂ ਤੋਂ, ਵੱਲੋਂ। ਭੁਲਾ = ਭੁੱਲਾ, ਖੁੰਝਿਆ ਹੋਇਆ। ਮੁਠਾ = ਠੱਗਿਆ ਜਾ ਰਿਹਾ ਹੈ। ਖੇਲੁ = ਤਮਾਸ਼ਾ, ਜਾਦੂ ਦੀ ਖੇਡ। ਬੁਰਾ = ਭੈੜਾ। ਰੁਠ = ਰੁੱਠਾ, ਰੁੱਸਿਆ। ਤੁਠਾ = ਖ਼ੁਸ਼ ਹੋਇਆ। ਸਿਦਕੁ = ਸ਼ਾਂਤੀ, ਤਸੱਲੀ। ਸਬੂਰੀ = ਸਬਰ, ਰਜੇਵਾਂ। ਸੰਤੁ = ਗੁਰੂ। ਵਤੈ = ਭਟਕਦਾ ਫਿਰਦਾ ਹੈ। ਆਪਣ ਭਾਣੀਆ = ਆਪਣੇ ਮਨ ਦੀ ਮਰਜ਼ੀ ਅਨੁਸਾਰ।੬।

ਹੇ ਭਾਈ! ਜਿਸ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਨੂੰ ਗੁਰੂ ਨਹੀਂ ਮਿਲਦਾ, ਉਹ ਆਪਣੇ ਮਨ ਦਾ ਮੁਰੀਦ ਹੋ ਕੇ ਭਟਕਦਾ ਫਿਰਦਾ ਹੈ, ਉਸ ਦੇ ਅੰਦਰ ਮਾਇਆ ਵਲੋਂ ਨਾਹ ਸ਼ਾਂਤੀ ਹੈ ਨਾਹ ਰਜੇਵਾਂ; ਉਹ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਸਿਰਜਣਹਾਰ ਵੱਲੋਂ ਖੁੰਝਿਆ ਰਹਿੰਦਾ ਹੈ, ਉਹ ਆਪਣੇ ਆਤਮਕ ਜੀਵਨ ਦਾ ਸਰਮਾਇਆ ਲੁਟਾ ਬੈਠਦਾ ਹੈ; ਇਹ ਜਗਤ-ਤਮਾਸ਼ਾ ਉਸ ਨੂੰ ਬੁਰਾ (ਖ਼ੁਆਰ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੈ), ਕਦੇ (ਮਾਇਆ ਗੁਆਚਣ ਤੇ ਇਹ) ਘਬਰਾ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ, ਕਦੇ ਮਾਇਆ ਮਿਲਣ ਤੇ) ਇਹ ਖ਼ੁਸ਼ ਹੋ ਹੋ ਬਹਿੰਦਾ ਹੈ।੬।


ਮਉਲਾ ਖੇਲ ਕਰੇ ਸਭਿ ਆਪੇ ॥ ਇਕਿ ਕਢੇ ਇਕਿ ਲਹਰਿ ਵਿਆਪੇ ॥ ਜਿਉ ਨਚਾਏ ਤਿਉ ਤਿਉ ਨਚਨਿ ਸਿਰਿ ਸਿਰਿ ਕਿਰਤ ਵਿਹਾਣੀਆ ॥੭॥
Ma▫ulā kẖel kare sabẖ āpe. Ik kadẖe ik lahar vi▫āpe. Ji▫o nacẖā▫e ṯi▫o ṯi▫o nacẖan sir sir kiraṯ vihāṇī▫ā. ||7||
Of Himself, the Lord stages the whole play. Some He takes out and some he casts into the waves. As God makes men dance, so do they dance; everyone passes life according to their past deeds.
ਮਉਲਾ = ਖ਼ੁਦਾ, ਰੱਬ। ਸਭਿ = ਸਾਰੇ। ਖੇਲ = {ਬਹੁ-ਵਚਨ। ਲਫ਼ਜ਼ 'ਖੇਲੁ' ਇਕ-ਵਚਨ}। ਆਪੇ = ਆਪ ਹੀ। ਇਕਿ = ਕਈ {ਲਫ਼ਜ਼ 'ਇਕ' ਤੋਂ ਬਹੁ-ਵਚਨ}। ਵਿਆਪੇ = ਫਸੇ ਹੋਏ। ਨਚਾਏ = ਨਚਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ। ਨਚਨਿ = ਨੱਚਦੇ ਹਨ। ਸਿਰਿ = ਸਿਰ ਉੱਤੇ। ਸਿਰਿ ਸਿਰਿ = ਹਰੇਕ (ਦੇ) ਸਿਰ ਉੱਤੇ। ਕਿਰਤ = (ਪਿਛਲੇ ਜਨਮਾਂ ਦੇ ਕੀਤੇ ਕਰਮਾਂ ਦੀ) ਕਮਾਈ। ਵਿਹਾਣੀਆ = ਬੀਤਦੀ ਹੈ, ਅਸਰ ਪਾਂਦੀ ਹੈ।੭।

(ਪਰ, ਹੇ ਭਾਈ! ਜੀਵਾਂ ਦੇ ਕੀਹ ਵੱਸ?) ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਆਪ ਹੀ ਸਾਰੇ ਖੇਲ ਕਰ ਰਿਹਾ ਹੈ। ਕਈ ਐਸੇ ਹਨ ਜਿਹੜੇ ਮਾਇਆ ਦੇ ਮੋਹ ਦੀਆਂ ਲਹਿਰਾਂ ਵਿਚ ਫਸੇ ਹੋਏ ਹਨ, ਕਈ ਐਸੇ ਹਨ ਜਿਨ੍ਹਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਉਸ ਨੇ ਇਹਨਾਂ ਲਹਿਰਾਂ ਵਿਚੋਂ ਕੱਢ ਲਿਆ ਹੈ। ਹੇ ਭਾਈ! ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਜਿਵੇਂ ਜਿਵੇਂ ਜੀਵਾਂ ਨੂੰ (ਮਾਇਆ ਦੇ ਹੱਥਾਂ ਤੇ) ਨਚਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ; ਤਿਵੇਂ ਤਿਵੇਂ ਜੀਵ ਨੱਚਦੇ ਹਨ। ਹਰੇਕ ਜੀਵ ਦੇ ਸਿਰ ਉੱਤੇ (ਉਸ ਦੇ ਪਿਛਲੇ ਜਨਮਾਂ ਦੇ ਕੀਤੇ ਕਰਮਾਂ ਦੀ) ਕਮਾਈ ਅਸਰ ਪਾ ਰਹੀ ਹੈ।੭।


ਮਿਹਰ ਕਰੇ ਤਾ ਖਸਮੁ ਧਿਆਈ ॥ ਸੰਤਾ ਸੰਗਤਿ ਨਰਕਿ ਨ ਪਾਈ ॥ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਨਾਮ ਦਾਨੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਕਉ ਗੁਣ ਗੀਤਾ ਨਿਤ ਵਖਾਣੀਆ ॥੮॥੨॥੮॥੧੨॥੨੦॥
Mihar kare ṯā kẖasam ḏẖi▫ā▫ī. Sanṯā sangaṯ narak na pā▫ī. Amriṯ nām ḏān Nānak ka▫o guṇ gīṯā niṯ vakẖāṇī▫ā. ||8||2||8||12||20||
If the Lord shows His grace, then alone meditate I upon the Lord. Associating with the saints, one falls not into hell. O Lord, bless Thou Nanak, with the gift of Thine Nectar-Name, He ever sings the songs of Thine praise.
ਤਾ = ਤਾਂ, ਤਦੋਂ। ਧਿਆਈ = ਧਿਆਈਂ, ਮੈਂ ਧਿਆਵਾਂ। ਨਰਕਿ = ਨਰਕ ਵਿਚ। ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ = ਆਤਮਕ ਜੀਵਨ ਦੇਣ ਵਾਲਾ। ਦਾਨੁ = ਖੈਰ। ਕਉ = ਨੂੰ (ਦੇਹ)। ਗੁਣ ਗੀਤਾ = ਗੁਣ ਗੀਤਾਂ, ਸਿਫ਼ਤਿ-ਸਾਲਾਹ ਦੇ ਗੀਤ। ਵਖਾਣੀਆ = ਵਖਾਣੀਂ, ਮੈਂ ਵਖਾਣਾਂ।੮।

ਹੇ ਭਾਈ! ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਆਪ ਮਿਹਰ ਕਰੇ, ਤਾਂ ਹੀ ਮੈਂ ਉਸ ਖਸਮ-ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਨੂੰ ਸਿਮਰ ਸਕਦਾ ਹਾਂ। (ਜਿਹੜਾ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਸਿਮਰਦਾ ਹੈ) ਉਹ ਸੰਤ ਜਨਾਂ ਦੀ ਸੰਗਤਿ ਵਿਚ ਰਹਿ ਕੇ ਨਰਕ ਵਿਚ ਨਹੀਂ ਪੈਂਦਾ। ਹੇ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ! ਨਾਨਕ ਨੂੰ ਆਤਮਕ ਜੀਵਨ ਦੇਣ ਵਾਲਾ ਆਪਣਾ ਨਾਮ-ਦਾਨ ਦੇਹ, (ਤਾ ਕਿ ਮੈਂ ਨਾਨਕ) ਤੇਰੀ ਸਿਫ਼ਤਿ-ਸਾਲਾਹ ਦੇ ਗੀਤ ਸਦਾ ਗਾਂਦਾ ਰਹਾਂ।੮।੨।੮।੧੨।੨੦। ❁ ਅੰਕਾਂ ਦਾ ਨਿਰਣਾ: ਅੰਕ ਨੰ: ੨ - ਇਹ ਦੋ ਅੰਜੁਲੀਆਂ (ਅਰਜ਼ੋਈਆਂ ਹਨ) ਮ: ੫ ਦੀਆਂ। ਅੰਕ ਨੰ: ੮ - ਮ: ੫ ਦੀਆਂ ਕੁੱਲ ਅਸ਼ਟਪਦੀਆਂ (੨ ਅੰਜੁਲੀਆਂ ਸਮੇਤ) ੮ ਹਨ। ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ਦੀਆਂ ਅਸ਼ਟਪਦੀਆਂ = ੧੧। ਮਹਲਾ ੩ ਦੀ ਅਸ਼ਟਪਦੀ = ੧। ਜੋੜ = ੧੨। ਮ: ੫ ਦੀਆਂ ਅਸ਼ਟਪਦੀਆਂ = ੮। ਕੁਲ ਜੋੜ = ੨੦।


Regards,
Dalbir Singh

Dalbir Singh Ji,
Gurfateh.

I still say that the Divine Message of Gurbani/Gurmatt/Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is FOR THIS WORLD and for US HUMANS.
It is pointless wondering the ifs and whys...we should concentrate on the MESSAGE..that is..Naam Japp and collect the Naam Capital to take with us when we depart this world.

ALL the "knowledge..the know-how etc etc that we accumulate about which karm leads to which joon..what punishment fits what crime...which person will be reborn in to what etc etc will be of no use to us IF we didnt collect the Naam kamaii. Parrh Parrh Gaddeh padeeah...we will be very knolwedgeable and experts in joons and reincarnations, jamdoots and their lekhas etc...BUT will we Pass muster and Merge..will the Creator accept us ??

WHY do you think..GURU NANAK JI ALWAYS says..I DONT KNOW...NO BODY KNOWS...Baba bolte theh KHAAN GAYEH ?? Where did the DEAD ONE GO ?? .why no one ever comes BACK ?? What really happens after Death..and BEFORE Birth ?? Simply becasue all that is in the REALM of the CREATOR..HE ALONE KNOWS IT ALL and DECIDES. Its ours to FOLLOW..and NOT QUESTION why..as the Marines say....ours not to question why..ours is to DO and DIE !! Guru Ji KNEW everything..if he wanted to..He could have written a DETAILED 500 page summary of all this..HE DID NOT....and you know why not ?? becasue after thta 500 page summary..there woudl be still people wondering..is this really so..?? is it correct ?? Huamn nature is such...we never satisfy and we are never satisfied !!

The TREE in the Gurbani above..is AKAL PURAKH...All creatures actively SEEK a large tree for its shade, coolness..shelter...and..AKAL PURAKH provides all those...In the Guudev Sakhis..there is mention fo a "tree" that Guru nanak ji slept under..and the shade of this tree never shifted with the passage of the SUN....that is metaphorical illustration of GURU NANAK the TREE thta came to offer His shade in all conditions...ordinary trees shift shade in tandem witht he sun..the GURU PROVIDES continous shade 24/7....consistently. Thats is the sakhi..and its not a MIRACLE as then that would be going agaisnt Natures Laws. The SNAKE shade thing si also a reference to the God Naga/Vishnu that has a multi headed snake shading him...and it became a skahi /miracle about a snake shading Guru nanak ji..when its GURU the Shade Giver...
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=24130
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=24130

my humble thoughts on the matter...lets now wait for teji's views..and i am sure they will be refreshing...

Dalbir Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

Thanks for your post. I was expecting a response regarding my post which was in reference to what you had written, instead you have copied and pasted some Shabads with Prof. Sahib Singh's translation and also Bhai Manmohan Singh's distorted literal transaltion in English and want me to translate them for you. Bhai Manmohan Singh ji, has treated Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji as the Bible where Ik Ong Kaar is a personified deity NOT Ajuni Sahibung- The Creative Energy - as in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Hence, he uses the words like LORD, THOU,THEE etc. etc., all borrowed from the Bible which are irrelevant to Sikhi and Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. You know you can buy the title LORD in the UK for a few Pounds? I know many have. Literal translation by Sant Singh Khalsa is even worse. So literal translations in english are not only distorting but also misleading at times. That is the reason I urge all to express Gurbani in their own words in English.

Now, coming back to your request about myself translating the above Shabads for you. I am sorry to disappoint you. Gurbani Vichar does not work like that. One is not here to test others but oneself and to interact and learn from each other. That is the main objective of this forum.

But please do not lose hope. Nothing is lost. I would like you to do one thing which I ask all who quote Gurbani, that is to express it in your own words. What you understand by it and add to the already copied and pasted Shabads.

Please also give your reasoning and thinking based on your own Gurmat understanding regarding the above Shabads. This is the way all of us can learn from you and each other.

If I happen to think differently, I would express that but before I can do that I need to know how this Gurbani relates to you as an indvidual on his Sikhi Marg because we all know Sikhi is the journey of the individual. Each of us carries our own Spiritual torch. I did express my understanding in response to your initial post as you can see it.

Hoping to learn a lot from you.

Regards

Tejwant Singh

I think pk70 ji is making an excellent point in the above paragraph. There are two dimensions to the conversation.

One is the thesis of Dr. Baldev Singh ji and the reasoning he has applied to the question of reincarnation as he understands Guru Nanak's philosophy. And Dr. Baldev Singh is not alone in his opinion, and he is joined by respected members of the forum.

Second however is the message of the Shabd Guru -- what is it teaching us? What is it saying about coming and going.

I think Dr. Baldev Singh's thesis needs to be treated with respect because he clearly shows how in the context of history and culture reincarnation was used to hoodwink people and to strengthen the position of Brahmins who were themselves corrupt and politically motivated. Their philosophy enslaved. It did not liberate -- not even the soul.

But, understanding his thesis or saying that he makes good arguments does not nullify the idea of reincarnation. Reincarnation can be seriously debated and discussed in light of Dr. Baldev Singh's thinking. One argument can be heard without abandoning the other. That is actually my own position on this topic. Dr. Baldev Singh raises serious doubts about the theory of karma and reincarnation as most understood these ideas at the time of Guru Nanak, and for generations afterward even to today. That however does not settle the mater. So far he has not convinced me that maran and janam have been tossed out the window. Only that janam and maran are not understood using the lens of the Brahminical traditions.

Respected Gyani jio
Humbly I thank you for so kind words. I have high regard for you as you know
Allow me to honor you as a real honest person for showing the sincerity Guru Nanak asks from his followers, many of them lack that utterly. Their outside behavior is contrary to what they think regardless what they talk about Gurbani. From my side, humbly urge you to accept it as a fact as per my comprehension.
I have been guided by reasoning since my University days. My professor who used to teach us Literature taught us a couple of things very important, “what is not understood, never debate that” and “what is not part of your knowledge , do not comment on that” That actually helped me to understand “reasoning” more.
Those who ignore these two things can make fools of themselves. On this forum, you might have noticed this fact practically.
Your attitude to teach Gurbani in simple way is praise worthy. What about the facts already expressed in Gurbani , would you accept if some color them with their own thinking? In my opinion, no scholar is so high like a tower that we cannot look at him/her, Dr Baldev Singh ji is not an exception either
You always quote Sakhis and try to give them positive meaning, good for you, at least it infuses reasoning through metaphoric expressions. I reject all of them as fictional work; it has nothing to do with Guru Message which is our today’s light.
Gurbani is very clear about birth and rebirth, there is no second guessing. Eighty four births number is just imaginary numbers or accepted imaginary calculations and shouldnt be taken literally; actually it’s used to address the process of the soul that goes through. When I read Dr Baldev Singh ji first time, about a couple years ago, I was really impressed but slowly I found out that he was telling more about his own thinking about the God and the universe than what Guru Nanak says. I was made aware of this fact by Gurbani itself. Guru Nanak, if says that he doesn’t know this or that, he simply puts limits on humans knowledge to understand the infinite. With the same reason I question those who teach science from Gurbani.
I totally agree with you, it is more important to understand Gurbani to make our life better; however, Isn’t it also important to point out that Dr Baldev Singh’s own thinking on birth and rebirth is not aligned with Gurbani. This point is supported by Gurbani so repeatedly, there is no place for a doubt. The Shabad quoted by Dlbirk is very important, it is sad, it has been ignored and S Manmohan Singh’s translation is questioned though his interpretation in context of birth and rebirth is not different than Dr Sahib Singh Ji. Here is the Vaak out of that Shabad already quoted by Dalbirk Ji. I can translate that Shabad, will it change the fact Dalbirk pointed out? No, it won’t. I quoted a numerous Guru Vakaas expressing faith in birth and rebirth; could it do it any thing? When mind is already set to take sides, no one can change that. Contrary to that, your openness inspired me to dialogue with you in this regard. Now look at the following, try to understand from where it starts
ਖੁਸਿ ਖੁਸਿ ਲੈਦਾ ਵਸਤੁ ਪਰਾਈ ॥ ਵੇਖੈ ਸੁਣੇ ਤੇਰੈ ਨਾਲਿ ਖੁਦਾਈ ॥ ਦੁਨੀਆ ਲਬਿ ਪਇਆ ਖਾਤ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਅਗਲੀ ਗਲ ਨ ਜਾਣੀਆ ॥੪॥
Kẖus kẖus laiḏā vasaṯ parā▫ī. vekẖai suṇe ṯerai nāl kẖuḏā▫ī. Ḏunī▫ā lab pa▫i▫ā kẖāṯ anḏar aglī gal na jāṇī▫ā.. ||4||
IN Essence: There are some who happily snatch others goods but don’t understand that God sees and hears all this. They are entangled in worldly temptations but are not aware of what will happen next

ਖੁਸਿਖੁਸਿ = ਖੋਹਕੇਖੋਹਕੇ, ਖੋਹਖੋਹਕੇ।ਪਰਾਈ = ਬਿਗਾਨੀ।ਵਸਤੁ = ਚੀਜ਼।ਖੁਦਾਈ = ਖ਼ੁਦਾ, ਰੱਬ।ਦੁਨੀਆਲਬਿ = ਦੁਨੀਆਦੇਲੱਬਵਿਚ; ਦੁਨੀਆਦੇ (ਸੁਆਦਦੇ) ਚਸਕੇਵਿਚ।ਖਾਤ = ਟੋਆ।ਗਲ = ਗੱਲ।ਅਗਲੀ = ਅਗਾਂਹਵਾਪਰਨਵਾਲੀ।੪।

ਹੇਭਾਈ! ਤੂੰਪਰਾਇਆਮਾਲ-ਧਨਖੋਹਖੋਹਕੇਇਕੱਠਾਕਰਦਾਰਹਿੰਦਾਹੈਂ, ਤੇਰੇਨਾਲਵੱਸਦਾਰੱਬ (ਤੇਰੀਹਰੇਕਕਰਤੂਤਨੂੰ) ਵੇਖਦਾਹੈ (ਤੇਰੇਹਰੇਕਬੋਲਨੂੰ) ਸੁਣਦਾਹੈ।ਤੂੰਦੁਨੀਆ (ਦੇਸੁਆਦਾਂ) ਦੇਚਸਕੇਵਿਚਫਸਿਆਪਿਆਹੈਂ (ਮਾਨੋਡੂੰਘੇ) ਟੋਏਵਿਚਡਿੱਗਾਹੋਇਆਹੈਂ।ਅਗਾਂਹਵਾਪਰਨਵਾਲੀਗੱਲਨੂੰਤੂੰਸਮਝਦਾਹੀਨਹੀਂ।੪। ( Oh brother you snatch things from others, God is always with you, He sees what you do and hears what you say. In worldly tastes you are totally involved but is unable to understand what is going to happen next)


ਜਮਿ ਜਮਿ ਮਰੈ ਮਰੈ ਫਿਰਿ ਜੰਮੈ ॥ਬਹੁਤੁ ਸਜਾਇ ਪਇਆ ਦੇਸਿ ਲੰਮੈ ॥ਜਿਨਿ ਕੀਤਾ ਤਿਸੈ ਨ ਜਾਣੀ ਅੰਧਾ ਤਾ ਦੁਖੁ ਸਹੈ ਪਰਾਣੀਆ ॥੫॥
Jam jam marai marai fir jammai.Bahuṯ sajā▫e pa▫i▫ā ḏes lammai.Jin kīṯā ṯisai na jāṇī anḏẖā ṯā ḏukẖ sahai parāṇī▫ā. ||5||
In Essence ( as one falls for worldly temptations) repeatedly dies and be born, this way will be very long , because the mortal cares not the Creator who has created him, and result of it, he suffers

ਜਮਿ = ਜੰਮਿ, ਜੰਮਕੇ।ਜਮਿਜਮਿਮਰੈ = ਮੁੜਮੁੜਜੰਮਕੇ (ਮੁੜਮੁੜ) ਮਰਦਾਹੈ, ਜਨਮਮਰਨਦੇਗੇੜਵਿਚਪੈਜਾਂਦਾਹੈ।ਸਜਾਇ = ਸਜ਼ਾ, ਦੰਡ।ਦੇਸਿਲੰਮੈ = ਲੰਮੇਦੇਸਵਿਚ, (ਮਰਨਮਰਨਦੇਗੇੜਦੇ) ਲੰਮੇਪੈਂਡੇਵਿਚ।ਜਿਨਿ = ਜਿਸ (ਪ੍ਰਭੂ) ਨੇ।ਕੀਤਾ = ਪੈਦਾਕੀਤਾ।ਅੰਧਾ = (ਮਾਇਆਦੇਮੋਹਵਿਚ) ਅੰਨ੍ਹਾ (ਹੋਇਆਮਨੁੱਖ)।ਤਾ = ਤਾਂ, ਤਾਂਹੀਏਂ।ਸਹੈ = ਸਹਾਰਦਾਹੈ।ਪਰਾਣੀਆ = ਪਰਾਣੀ, ਜੀਵ।੫।

ਹੇਭਾਈ! ਜਦੋਂਮਨੁੱਖ (ਮਾਇਆਦੇਮੋਹਵਿਚ) ਅੰਨ੍ਹਾ (ਹੋਕੇ) ਉਸਪਰਮਾਤਮਾਨਾਲਸਾਂਝਨਹੀਂਪਾਂਦਾਜਿਸਨੇਇਸਨੂੰਪੈਦਾਕੀਤਾਹੈ, ਤਦੋਂਇਹ (ਜਨਮਮਰਨਦੇਗੇੜਦਾ) ਦੁੱਖਸਹਿੰਦਾਹੈ, ਇਸਨੂੰਬਹੁਤਸਜ਼ਾਮਿਲਦੀਹੈ, ਇਹ (ਜਨਮਮਰਨਦੇਗੇੜਦੇ) ਲੰਮੇਪੈਂਡੇਵਿਚਪੈਜਾਂਦਾਹੈ, ਇਹਮੁੜਮੁੜਜੰਮਕੇ (ਮੁੜਮੁੜ) ਮਰਦਾਹੈ, ਜਨਮਮਰਨਦੇਗੇੜਵਿਚਪੈਜਾਂਦਾਹੈ।੫।( Oh brother when one under the influence of Maya turns blind, and doesn’t know the Creator who created him, suffers through cycle of birth and death, this way he is punished a lot, he falls in to a long cycle of birth and death and takes birth repeatedly)
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=24130
Now coming to your statement, why Guru says” WHY do y ou think..Guru Nanak JI ALWAYS says..I DONT KNOW...NO BODY KNOWS...Baba bolte theh KHAAN GAYEH ?? Where did the DEAD ONE GO ?? .why no one ever comes BACK ?? What really happens after Death..and BEFORE Birth ?? Simply becasue all that is in the REALM of the CREATOR..HE ALONE KNOWS IT ALL and DECIDES. Its ours to FOLLOW..an
Respected Gyani Jio, here is the answer referring to the same thing (which is not known), Gurbani stresses that all this goes on due to “haon”(Me/ego)
ਜਬ ਇਹ ਜਾਨੈ ਮੈ ਕਿਛੁ ਕਰਤਾ ॥ (278)
Jab ih jānai mai kicẖẖ karṯā.
As long as this mortal thinks that he is the one who does things,

ਤਬ ਲਗੁ ਗਰਭ ਜੋਨਿ ਮਹਿ ਫਿਰਤਾ ॥
Ŧab lag garabẖ jon mėh firṯā.
he shall wander in births through the womb.
As per your statement, Guru says that he doesn’t know what happens after death then why Guru says that the one who lives in ego ends up in birth again?
If Guru Nanak who says he doesn’t know what happens after death, why the following claim is established
ਅੰਤਰਿ ਨਾਵਣੁ ਸਾਚੁ ਪਛਾਣੈ ॥ ਅੰਤਰ ਕੀ ਗਤਿ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਜਾਣੈ ॥ ਸਾਚ ਸਬਦ ਬਿਨੁ ਮਹਲੁ ਨ ਪਛਾਣੈ ॥੩॥
Anṯar nāvaṇ sācẖ pacẖẖāṇai. Anṯar kī gaṯ gurmukẖ jāṇai. Sācẖ sabaḏ bin mahal na pacẖẖāṇai. ||3||
In Essence: Bathing occurs within, Gurmukh understands the Almighty within, and understands eternal condition of the mind(in this context)( However without Guru) No one can realize the presence of Him without the true words of Guru..
ਨਾਵਣੁ = ਇਸ਼ਨਾਨ।ਗਤਿ = ਆਤਮਕਅਵਸਥਾ।ਮਹਲੁ = ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾਦਾਟਿਕਾਣਾ।੩।

ਜੇਹੜਾਮਨੁੱਖਗੁਰੂਦੀਸਰਨਪੈਕੇਆਪਣੀਅੰਦਰਲੀਆਤਮਕਹਾਲਤਸਮਝਲੈਂਦਾਹੈ, ਜੇਹੜਾਮਨੁੱਖਆਪਣੇਅੰਦਰਸਦਾ-ਥਿਰਪ੍ਰਭੂਨਾਲਸਾਂਝਪਾਲੈਂਦਾਹੈ, ਉਹਆਪਣੇਆਤਮਾਵਿਚ (ਤੀਰਥ-) ਇਸ਼ਨਾਨਕਰਰਿਹਾਹੈ। (ਪਰਗੁਰੂਦੇ) ਸੱਚੇਸ਼ਬਦਤੋਂਬਿਨਾਪਰਮਾਤਮਾਦਾਟਿਕਾਣਾਕੋਈਮਨੁੱਖਨਹੀਂਪਛਾਣਸਕਦਾ।੩। ( The One who after seeking Guru’s refuge, understands internal spiritual plight and understands the Eternal Almighty within, is having bathing within. (but without Guru) no one can understand presence the Creator)
ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰਮਹਿਆਕਾਰੁਸਮਾਵੈ॥ ਅਕਲਕਲਾਸਚੁਸਾਚਿਟਿਕਾਵੈ॥ਸੋਨਰੁਗਰਭਜੋਨਿਨਹੀਆਵੈ॥੪॥
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=24130
Nirankār mėh ākār samāvai. Akal kalā sacẖ sācẖ tikāvai. So nar garabẖ jon nahī āvai. ||4||
Such person (Gurmukh) merges into the Formless by reverting himself towards the unknowable Almighty (centers the mind at Him), that person doesn’t enter into womb-existences.
ਆਕਾਰੁ = ਬਾਹਰਦਿੱਸਦਾਜਗਤ।ਸਮਾਵੈ = ਲੀਨਕਰੇ।ਅਕਲਕਲਾ = ਜਿਸਦੀਕਲਾਗਿਣਤੀਤੋਂਪਰੇਹੈ।ਸਾਚਿ = ਸਦਾ-ਥਿਰਪ੍ਰਭੂਵਿਚਜੁੜਕੇ।੪।

ਜੇਹੜਾਮਨੁੱਖਦਿੱਸਦੇਸੰਸਾਰਨੂੰਅਦ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਟਪ੍ਰਭੂਵਿਚਲੀਨਕਰਲੈਂਦਾਹੈ (ਭਾਵ, ਆਪਣੀਬ੍ਰਿਤੀਨੂੰਬਾਹਰਵਲੋਂਰੋਕਕੇਅੰਦਰਲੈਆਉਂਦਾਹੈ ਜਿਸਪ੍ਰਭੂਦੀਸੱਤਿਆ-ਗਿਣਤੀਮਿਣਤੀਤੋਂਪਰੇਹੈਉਸਸਦਾ-ਥਿਰਪ੍ਰਭੂਨੂੰਜੇਹੜਾਮਨੁੱਖਸਿਮਰਨਦੀਰਾਹੀਂਆਪਣੇਹਿਰਦੇਵਿਚਟਿਕਾਂਦਾਹੈ, ਉਹਮਨੁੱਖਜਨਮਮਰਨਦੇਗੇੜਵਿਚਨਹੀਂਆਉਂਦਾ।੪। ( The person who merges the visible world into Invisible Creator(means curbs his attention from outside to bring into within), and sets unknowable Almighty in mind through Simran, that person doesn’t go into cycle of birth and death)


I have abandoned the Sakhis, Sikh-literature sources, all miracle-stories and have taken refuge in Sri Guru Granth Sahib and have realized that there are some facts in concept of soul, birth and death and merging with the Almighty never to come into recycling. It is not the right thing to do by refusing to accept our own Guru just because someone thought otherwise. You have seen how bit by bit people abused Gurbani to negate Panj Kakaars right on this site.
There is no end of such dramas. The best refuge is Guru Message that is repeated through Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, it doesn’t need an approval of any scientist.
Thanks for bearing with me.
Regards

G Singh

In addition to five kakaars IMHO pk ji, maybe similar parameters & methods r used to prove that eating of Non-Veg is banned in Sikhism .