Life is Easier Without Karma - a Discussion

Embers · #1 (**permalink**) 05-Aug-2012, 20:50 PM

Confused Ji and I would like to take up the discussion of Karma and right understanding of Karma, stated in another post. I suggest we do so here, pulling on Sikh and non-Sikhi philsophy as appropriate to arrive at a conclusion.

The Sikh Wiki reads:

Quote:

Sikhism believe that everything happens in Hukam(Supreme Command). A Person can do action only after thinking. The action which happened practically is actually part of Hukam (Whether Good or Bad in eyes of people). Sikhism does not believe in Karmic Philosphy at all.

Link: http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Karma

This might be the personal opinion of the author however it is the reasons I remarked that "Life is easier without karma", and in place consider Hukam as the root in line with the Wiki. I am personally however not opposed to Karma but considered, when posting, that the wiki quote is the Sikh view; i.e. that there is only Hukam.

So, we will discuss karma as Confused Ji requests. I will not limit my replies to Sikhism alone (hence this directory). I hope everyone feels free to contribute too. peacesign

Peace to all.

Embers · #2 (**permalink**) 05-Aug-2012, 20:56 PM

So, if all is Hukam and there is no Karma then every action is the Lord's will. We then enter hard determinism, in which everything that a person does or receives is simply the Lord's will. This makes life easier because 1) I don't have to question why I am rich/poor or lucky/unlucky. There is just acceptance. Life is easier in the sense that I do not have to change anything.

Is life 'better' or more divine for this acceptance? Personally I see dilemmas as one is equally able to act on ill intentions considering that intention good e.g. Stealing or murdering because it feels like Hukam to do so. The issue here is grave misunderstanding, even ignorance. Ignorance is pretty much the cause of samsara and suffering, so to consider everything Hukam may lead to harm without the guide of the Guru (God/Sri Granth).
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/controversies/38889-life-is-easier-without-karma-discussion.html
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38889

Just some thoughts to get us started

Kamala · #3 (**permalink**) 05-Aug-2012, 21:57 PM

Everyone knows life is easier without karma.. but I don't understand why you need to point it out considering it here.

Karma is based off your previous birth, Sikhi isn't Abrahamic. Karma means if you do good you will get good in your next incarnation.. even if it is an animal or a human. Just like how dogs get some of the most loving homes, and some aren't so lucky (dogs). You can get mukti and get out of the rebirth passage where there will be no Karma. But if you aren't interested in that, just be nice to others and you will get a nice 'next' life. This is why you see poor people being poor, or disabled people being disabled.. still we need to respect them as much as we respect others, as it is good for us and them.

Embers · #4 (**permalink**) 05-Aug-2012, 22:05 PM

Thanks for your input, Kamala ji. It is useful to know.

I understand Confused Ji will propose a reason why it is incorrect to say life is easier without karma.

harry haller · #5 (**permalink**) 06-Aug-2012, 00:03 AM

Ambersji,

Sikhiwikki is not the most reliable source of information on Sikhism. There is a lot of confusion and contradiction.For instance some pages say the tenth master had only one wife, some pages say he had three, and it seems the Dasam Granth was indeed written by the tenth master.

Quote:

so, if all is Hukam and there is no Karma then every action is the Lord's will

every action COULD (paypal address needed Gyaniji), be the Lord's will, but every action is not. Some actions are our own will, this is the difference between being manmukh and Gurmukh.

Quote:

This makes life easier because 1) I don't have to question why I am rich/poor or lucky/unlucky.

No, you must question. Sikhs live in the real world, not mountain tops.As a Sikh you do not sit, chant, meditate, pray and observe rituals for a better life, you have to get off your *** and make things happen. Now if the thing you want to make happen, and the way in which you can make it happen are both within Bani, then you are aligned with Creator and Creation, give it your best shot, and it may come good. Creator is not looking down judging you, judgment comes from Creation. If you stroke a dog, it will lick you, if you kick it, it will bite you, instant karma!

Quote:

Karma is based off your previous birth, Sikhi isn't Abrahamic. Karma means if you do good you will get good in your next incarnation.. even if it is an animal or a human. Just like how dogs get some of the most loving homes, and some aren't so lucky (dogs). You can get mukti and get out of the rebirth passage where there will be no Karma. But if you aren't interested in that, just be nice to others and you will get a nice 'next' life. This is why you see poor people being poor, or disabled people being disabled.. still we need to respect them as much as we respect others, as it is good for us and them.

Kamalaji, this is incredibly Vedic and far from what I believe to be traditional (or should that be heretic) Sikh thinking. I find it ridiculous that you are pointing at sections of society and saying 'your like this because of a previous life'. If you are disabled, or poor, then Sikhism says you are blessed, you are alive, you have the potential to find the real you inside, and thus Naam. Being poor or disabled is no bar to a Sikh, and no bar to finding Naam.

harry haller · #6 (**permalink**) 06-Aug-2012, 00:12 AM

Quote:

I understand Confused Ji will propose a reason why it is incorrect to say life is easier without karma.

Good Luck! because after 7 pages we are all no closer

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/buddhi...fused-jis.html

Embers · #7 (**permalink**) 06-Aug-2012, 03:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by harry haller

Ambersji,

Sikhiwikki is not the most reliable source of information on Sikhism. There is a lot of confusion and contradiction.For instance some pages say the tenth master had only one wife, some pages say he had three, and it seems the Dasam Granth was indeed written by the tenth master.

Thanks Harryji
I had the impression it wasn't to be relied upon. I think I will look to the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji next time

Quote:

Originally Posted by harry haller

every action COULD (paypal address needed Gyaniji), be the Lord's will, but every action is not. Some actions are our own will, this is the difference between being manmukh and Gurmukh.

No, you must question. Sikhs live in the real world, not mountain tops.As a Sikh you do not sit, chant, meditate, pray and observe rituals for a better life, you have to get off your *** and make things happen. Now if the thing you want to make happen, and the way in which you can make it happen are both within Bani, then you are aligned with Creator and Creation, give it your best shot, and it may come good. Creator is not looking down judging you, judgment comes from Creation. If you stroke a dog, it will lick you, if you kick it, it will bite you, instant karma!

How does one draw the line between our will and Hukam?
Getting off one's *** and making things happen is Hukam or free will in Sikhi thought? Just curious because I am not sure on the Sikhi view.

Quote:

Originally Posted by harry haller

Kamalaji, this is incredibly Vedic and far from what I believe to be traditional (or should that be heretic) Sikh thinking. I find it ridiculous that you are pointing at sections of society and saying 'your like this because of a previous life'. If you are disabled, or poor, then Sikhism says you are blessed, you are alive, you have the potential to find the real you inside, and thus Naam. Being poor or disabled is no bar to a Sikh, and no bar to finding Naam.

(Not aimed at you Kamalaji, but on the topic of Vedic rebirth) My personal view is the body is karma, based on our past actions e.g. if I eat chocolate I will get fat.

I do not subscribe to the idea that karma will give me a birth in a Varna or Caste. Why? One reason is that I was not born in a varna or caste this time and that is a birth with freedom from discrimination (except maybe by some Hindus who believe people outside of a Varna are not Hindu, I guess). mundahug

Embers · #8 (**permalink**) 06-Aug-2012, 03:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by harry haller

Good Luck! because after 7 pages we are all no closer

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/buddhi...fused-jis.html

Have I opened a can of worms, I wonder.
Long posts will challenge my 15 second attention span before I click on another link.

Luckysingh · #9 (**permalink**) 06-Aug-2012, 03:46 AM

The problem that we have with this karma issue is exactly what it means.
I do not and I'm sure many others don't find the classic hindu karmic philosophy applicable. To be living this life so that I get a better next life is NOT my goal in any way.
Then trying to do good all your life so that in my next life I may come as a higher caste or as a maharaja is NOT my goal either. - I strictly do NOT believe this kind of philosophy.

I probably have my own karmic philosophy and i'm sure most of you will.
I believe it more on the lines of reaping what you sow or getting out of creation and universe what you put in!- It is much more than that, but those are the starting points in my view.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38889

AS for the question of ***Life being easier without karma***
I don't agree or disagree as I find it not applicable.
Do I really want my life to be that easy ??
We should have all learnt by now, that having a very easy life is also the MOST BORING and probably more harmful for our self confidence and esteem!!
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38889

-My simple answer to the above of '' is life easier without karma??''
Is Simply, life is too easy to complicate and I feel my life won't get harder or easier with or without karma. Then again, I really don't want it to be that easy anyway.