A preacher telling Guru Nanaks guru was kabir and other misinterpretations

sajsikh · #1 (**permalink**) 04-Jul-2012, 00:42 AM

Hello folks, now i never want to start inter religion controversy but this one is surely of the next level for example he says kabir is guru of guru nanak!!!!

and he says god is not nirakar but sakar example he gives is this

मलार महला १ ॥ (Page 1257, श्री गुरु ग्रंथ साहिब जी) - गुरु नानक देव जी की बानी
बागे कापड़ बोलै बैण ॥

लमा नकु काले तेरे नैण ॥

कबहूं साहिबु देखिआ भैण ॥१॥

ऊडां ऊडि चड़ां असमानि ॥

साहिब सम्रिथ तेरै ताणि ॥

जलि थलि डूंगरि देखां तीर ॥

थान थनंतरि साहिबु बीर ॥२॥

जिनि तनु साजि दीए नालि ख्मभ ॥

अति त्रिसना उडणै की डंझ ॥

नदरि करे तां बंधां धीर ॥

जिउ वेखाले तिउ वेखां बीर ॥३॥

न इहु तनु जाइगा न जाहिगे ख्मभ ॥

पउणै पाणी अगनी का सनबंध ॥

नानक करमु होवै जपीऐ करि गुरु पीरु ॥

सचि समावै एहु सरीरु ॥४॥४॥९॥

You wear white clothes, and speak sweet words. Your nose is sharp, and your eyes are black. Have you ever seen your Lord and Master, O sister? ||1|| I fly and soar, and ascend to the heavens. By Your power, O my All-powerful Lord and Master. I see Him in the water, on the land, in the mountains, on the river-banks, in all places and interspaces, O brother. ||2|| He fashioned the body, and gave it wings; He gave it great thirst and desire to fly. When He bestows His Glance of Grace, I am comforted and consoled. As He makes me see, so do I see, O brother. ||3|| Neither this body, nor its wings, shall go to the world hereafter. It is a fusion of air, water and fire. O Nanak, if it is in the mortal's karma, then he meditates on the Lord, with the Guru as his Spiritual Teacher. This body is absorbed in the Truth. ||4||4||9||
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/controversies/38746-preacher-telling-guru-nanaks-guru-kabir.html
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38746

Guru Nanak Dev Ji is seeing and addressing the Supreme God and is describing Him very beautifully and is clearly saying that you are wearing white clothes and you have a beautiful nose and black eyes.

Kanwaljit Singh · #2 (**permalink**) 04-Jul-2012, 04:48 AM

Is it taken from this website?

http://www.spiritual.comuv.com/god_i...nth_sahib.html

ਜਲਿ ਥਲਿ ਡੂੰਗਰਿ ਦੇਖਾਂ ਤੀਰ ॥
I see Him in the water, on the land, in the mountains, on the river-banks

Now consider the above line. You see God in water, land, mountains and river banks. Describe the form of water? How would you? Does water have any shape? Isn't it Nirakar itself? We see God in various shapes (akars) but we cannot define His Akar to anyone! How helpless are we!

Did you know that Maharaja Ranjit Singh was taught to fight and rule by the Britishers? Never heard of it? Well now I have said it.

Quote:

he says kabir is guru of guru nanak

Just because two men were blessed with Bhagti, you can't come to conclusion without historical evidence. And how does that affect you? Are you in doubt if you are a Sikh or a Kabeer Panthi? A little 'new' history and a new label will take you into another duality.

Gyani Jarnail Singh · #3 (**permalink**) 04-Jul-2012, 13:12 PM

a REAL SIKH does QUESTION..but he questions what the Teacher Teaches...like Sir I DONT GET this..or that..or how do i get to meet the Beloved..how do i become One with Him..etc etc. The Real SIKH doenst Question..who is my teacher..is it YOU who stand before me teaching..or is the one i left standing by the corner..shall i run out to him..or stay here in Class....THAT TYPE of DOUBTING JONES wont get anywhere...He got NOTHING to learn either form KABIR or from Nanak Ji..He will learn NOTHING..just running from pillar to post.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38746

Guru nanak ji gave Baghat KABIR JI sharomani Bhagat Status..chose his Bani to sit at par with His own..its GURBANI and all sikhs bow to it and LEARN FROM It. WE also LEARN from Guru nanak jis Bani..and also many others who are in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38746

However there is NO COMPULSION..If one beleives he should just listen ONLY to Kabir Ji..its his wish...he can do so for as long a s he wishes..so WHAT ?? ITS CHURNING WATER ONCE AGAIN....churning water produces only BUBBLES OF AIR...not butter. Its KABIR JI who wrote..the HOLY SAINTS..churn the MILK and EAT the CREAM and the BUTTER.......ordinary doubters drink the WASTE left behind...!!! Choose what you want- cream butter or waste ??

Kanwaljit Singh · #4 (**permalink**) 04-Jul-2012, 13:34 PM

Quote:

If one beleives he should just listen ONLY to Kabir Ji..its his wish

Even if one only listens to Kabir ji's Baani and follows it earnestly, they will be blessed. But reducing the no. of Baanis you read doesn't mean that you are reading your selected Baanis more frequently or more attentively.

PS: I am still unsure if SajSikh meant anything we are talking about

Gyani Jarnail Singh · #5 (**permalink**) 04-Jul-2012, 17:23 PM

YES Jios..Its KABIR JI who says..EK gharree aadhi gharree aadhee hun te aadh...even a BLINK of an eye...to FOLLOW HIM is enough...and the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is a Vast OCEAN..no one can really say he has completed it all....

Kanwaljit Singh · #6 (**permalink**) 04-Jul-2012, 23:46 PM

Kabeer Eik Gharee Aadhee Gharee Aadhee Hu Te Adh - Bhai Harpreet Singh ji - YouTube

Randip Singh · #7 (**permalink**) 05-Jul-2012, 02:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sajsikh

Hello folks, now i never want to start inter religion controversy but this one is surely of the next level for example he says kabir is guru of guru nanak!!!!

and he says god is not nirakar but sakar example he gives is this

मलार महला १ ॥ (Page 1257, श्री गुरु ग्रंथ साहिब जी) - गुरु नानक देव जी की बानी
बागे कापड़ बोलै बैण ॥

लमा नकु काले तेरे नैण ॥

कबहूं साहिबु देखिआ भैण ॥१॥

ऊडां ऊडि चड़ां असमानि ॥

साहिब सम्रिथ तेरै ताणि ॥

जलि थलि डूंगरि देखां तीर ॥

थान थनंतरि साहिबु बीर ॥२॥

जिनि तनु साजि दीए नालि ख्मभ ॥

अति त्रिसना उडणै की डंझ ॥

नदरि करे तां बंधां धीर ॥

जिउ वेखाले तिउ वेखां बीर ॥३॥

न इहु तनु जाइगा न जाहिगे ख्मभ ॥

पउणै पाणी अगनी का सनबंध ॥

नानक करमु होवै जपीऐ करि गुरु पीरु ॥

सचि समावै एहु सरीरु ॥४॥४॥९॥

You wear white clothes, and speak sweet words. Your nose is sharp, and your eyes are black. Have you ever seen your Lord and Master, O sister? ||1|| I fly and soar, and ascend to the heavens. By Your power, O my All-powerful Lord and Master. I see Him in the water, on the land, in the mountains, on the river-banks, in all places and interspaces, O brother. ||2|| He fashioned the body, and gave it wings; He gave it great thirst and desire to fly. When He bestows His Glance of Grace, I am comforted and consoled. As He makes me see, so do I see, O brother. ||3|| Neither this body, nor its wings, shall go to the world hereafter. It is a fusion of air, water and fire. O Nanak, if it is in the mortal's karma, then he meditates on the Lord, with the Guru as his Spiritual Teacher. This body is absorbed in the Truth. ||4||4||9||

Guru Nanak Dev Ji is seeing and addressing the Supreme God and is describing Him very beautifully and is clearly saying that you are wearing white clothes and you have a beautiful nose and black eyes.

The message or Nanak and Kabir maybe similar in parts but they are MILES apart on certain issues. For this reason and historical fact, Kabir was not the Guru of Nanak.

Read this and lets dispell this nonsense for once and for all:

http://sikhinstitute.org/conn_th_dots/ch3.htm

Bhagat Kabir (1398 - 1518 CE)

To honour the tradition of the Kabirpanthis, 1518 has been recorded here as the date of death of this mystic poet. According to them, Bhagat Kabir lived for 120 years from 1398-1518. But scholarly research puts his life span from 1398 to 1448.
An interesting story is told, as to how Kabir made Ramanand agree to be his Guru, although the latter took only Brahmins as his disciples. But, it lacks credibility as according to the code of guru-shish relationship in India, it is hypocritical not to tell the name of one’s guru, as Guru Amar Das says:

He who conceals his guru
Will have no place to rest.1
Guru Ramdas also says:
He who conceals the name of his guru
Is not a good person.2
Kabir in his compositions clearly says, that his guru is Satguru, who is omnipresent, and lives deep within one’s heart.
He also says:
I know the One God who is from the beginning.
I do not believe in those whom He created and destroyed.3
Regarding the “Ram” that he often mentioned in padas (and is also mentioned in the Guru Granth Sahib) Kabir had explained:
Make the Lord your companion
And be free of joy and sorrow
He was not born as Dashrath’s son,
Nor did he kill the king of Lanka;
He issued not from Devki’s womb,
Nor was he reared by Yashodha. …
And He is not the one that passed away at Dwarka…
He is the One who is beyond these
And keeps the world going.

(Jodh Singh, Kabir, p 40; cf Dr. Parasnath Tiwari, Ramaini of Kabir, p 74)

Similarly it would be incorrect to say, that Kabir was Guru Nanak’s Guru, just because of similarity in their views. Guru Nanak’s guru also was none other than Satguru. (Sidh Gosht, GGS, p 972)
Had it been otherwise we would not have had Nanak II and Nanak III, we would have had Kabir II and Kabir III or Ramanand III and Ramanand IV. In the Guru Granth Sahib, where the bani of the Gurus is given in each Raga, in chronological order, and then follow compositions of various Bhagats, with Kabir’s bani placed first—and in some cases also at the end. If the lineage of gurus had started from Ramanand, his bani would have been given first position.

In the entire bani of Guru Nanak in the Guru Granth Sahib, Kabir’s name is not mentioned even once. (Jodh Singh, Kabir, p 25, Patiala: Punjabi University.)

In Sidh-Gosht (GGS, p 942) the Sidhs directly ask Nanak, “Who is your guru, and whose disciple are you?” Guru Nanak replies: “The Lord is my Guru, and I am His disciple.”

Kabir’s reputation as a man of God was so high, that his followers said: Kabir was not born of a woman but descended straight from the heavens, into the heart of a lotus flower, and newly married Nima and her husband Niru picked up the celestial baby and raised him. Coincidentally, to give the child a name, when the qazi consulted the Quran, the name he got was Kabir, which in Arabic is an attribute of God.

Kabir went through no schooling, but to earn his living went to Benares, famous for its learned personage. In his compositions he tells us he liked the company of holy persons for exchange of views.4
Not depending on tradition, we can trace his life and understand his philosophy from the voluminous treasure of his compositions that is available.

Guru Nanak during his sojourns visited Benares also. He found echo of his own thoughts in the hymns of Kabir. He collected some of them, and probably sang them accompanied by Mardana’s rebeck (rabab). He handed over his notebooks to Bhai Lehna (Guru Angad Dev), when he passed on the spiritual torch to him in 1539. Guru Angad’s successor, Guru Amar Das, added to that collection, as he had been a regular visitor to Haridwar, which was another center of religious scholars, and mendicants who collected in their repertoire all they found easy to sing. This collection of Guru Amar Das, was used by Guru Arjun Dev in compiling the Adi Granth – sealed, bound and placed in the Harimandar in 1604, as a spiritual beacon for mankind.
All references below are from Guru Granth Sahib.

Kabir’s Life

Kabir tells us: He was a weaver of Benares.(p 970) His Muslim mother did not like Hindu skinhead sadhus frequenting their house, and giving them Hindu nicknames.(p 484) Kabir’s wife and his mother were fed up with that regular inflow of sadhus who ate their bellies full, while Kabir’s own daughter and his two sons were being deprived of their basic needs — because Kabir was spending most of his time in the company of sadhus, neglecting the weaving work, which was source of their livelihood. They complained; they sighed and cried that Kabir did not talk about the loom, the warp, the beam or the shuttle; instead it was the word of God that was all over him. (p 524) But, Kabir himself enjoyed the company of holy men exchanging with them his views, diametrically opposite to those of the Brahmins, who he thought would go to hell. Brahmins tried to drown him in the Ganges (p 1162). Muslims considered him a *****, and complained against him. The qazi punished him to be trampled by an elephant. But, despite the mahawat’s multiple attempts to goad him to put his foot on Kabir, the elephant did not move forward; instead, he picked him up in his trunk and saluted several times. (pp 870-71)
He says, “I am a weaver of Kashi” (p 970). “People make fun of my caste, but I am proud of it”.(p 1364) But, he is also happy, to ‘lose’ his caste by mingling with sadhus, Brahmins and people of all walks of life.(p 484)

Kabir’s Beliefs

God is purest of the pure (p 727). “I know one God, who is from the beginning! I do not believe in those, whom He created and destroyed”.(p 340) “I am Thy son, Thou art my father; Both of us live in the same place – this body” (p 333). God is found through devotion. “There is no salvation without the name of God.” (p 1157) Salvation means union with the Supreme Reality.

Kabir’s Message

There is one God – the Creator. “The Lord is One O qazi”. (p 483) “The Creator pervades the creation everywhere; the same clay has been moulded into diverse forms.”(p 1349) “In Hindus and Muslims, pervades the same God, Kabir proclaims it aloud”.(p 483) “Let the name [of God] be thy sustenance;…Make righteousness and compassion thy garden.”(p 970) “Destroy lust, anger and pride.”(p 1349)
Kabir condemned forcible conversions. “Says Kabir, what is done by force is tyranny, thou deemest it lawful [O qazi!].”(p 1374) He condemned hypocrisy, superstitions, idol worship, and false beliefs: “They buy idols and worship them, and with an obstinate mind go and bathe in holy places….Missing [the real path] they wander astray. They made a stone into a god, and multitudes worship it. Those who put their faith in it [for salvation] will drown midstream.”(p 1371)
He condemns the caste discrimination:
“How art thou a Brahmin and how am I a Shudra? Does milk flow in thy veins and blood in mine?”(p 324)
Bluntly, Kabir asks the Brahmin:
“If you are a Brahmin, born of a Brahmin woman,
Why did you not take birth from another way”?5

Kabir was not influenced by the common ‘belief’ that one who dies in Kashi goes straight to the heaven. To condemn such a superstition, after living most of his life in Kashi, towards the end of his life he moved to Maghar — a place given a bad reputation, that one who dies in Maghar will be reborn as an ***. He said, “I think Kashi and Maghar to be equal.” (p 326) And, that is where he breathed his last leaving behind thousands of admirers – both Hindus and Muslims. As per tradition, the Hindus wanted to cremate him, but the Muslims wanted to bury him. When they picked up the shroud, instead of his body they found a layer of flowers. “Born from a flower, he returned to flowers.”
[243 verses of Bhagat Kabir are contained in the Guru Granth Sahib.]

Astroboy · #8 (**permalink**) 05-Jul-2012, 23:54 PM

Any of the sects can make such claims that Guru Nanak had a Living Guru. Say for example, the Ravidasis also can say the following:-

Quote:

Guru Ravidass Ji held discussions with Guru Nanak Dev Ji, Satguru Kabir Ji and Sant Ramanand Ji against prevalent social, religious, economic and political persecution.

Quote:

GURU BABE NANAK KAI AAGE PADE GAWTA

Further reading: http://www.gururavidassguruji.com/sa...assmaharaj.htm

sajsikh · #9 (**permalink**) 29-Jul-2012, 15:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gyani Jarnail Singh

a REAL SIKH does QUESTION..but he questions what the Teacher Teaches...like Sir I DONT GET this..or that..or how do i get to meet the Beloved..how do i become One with Him..etc etc. The Real SIKH doenst Question..who is my teacher..is it YOU who stand before me teaching..or is the one i left standing by the corner..shall i run out to him..or stay here in Class....THAT TYPE of DOUBTING JONES wont get anywhere...He got NOTHING to learn either form KABIR or from Nanak Ji..He will learn NOTHING..just running from pillar to post.

Guru nanak ji gave Baghat KABIR JI sharomani Bhagat Status..chose his Bani to sit at par with His own..its GURBANI and all sikhs bow to it and LEARN FROM It. WE also LEARN from Guru nanak jis Bani..and also many others who are in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

However there is NO COMPULSION..If one beleives he should just listen ONLY to Kabir Ji..its his wish...he can do so for as long a s he wishes..so WHAT ?? ITS CHURNING WATER ONCE AGAIN....churning water produces only BUBBLES OF AIR...not butter. Its KABIR JI who wrote..the HOLY SAINTS..churn the MILK and EAT the CREAM and the BUTTER.......ordinary doubters drink the WASTE left behind...!!! Choose what you want- cream butter or waste ??

Hello , its really strange that you form opinions so easily. I put my question in historical context , i want to know the opinion of others on what this person is saying.
I am not running anywhere my beliefs are my own i dont change them due to anything or anyone.
What i mean is that you see this person on national tv proclaiming that kabir was guru of guru nanak and also openly invites debate , proclaiming what he tells is the only truth.
I am asking this cause i want to know from much knowledgeable people. It here dosent make any difference on my beliefs ,but if someone says his guru was guru of my guru than surely i wanna know what he says . ok need to see what he says

Quote:

Respected Shri Nanak Saheb Ji witness of God Kabir (Dhaanak) Weaver

Shri Nanak Dev ji was born on Vikrami Samvat 1526 (1469 A.D.) Kartik Shukl Poornima in a Hindu family of Shri Kalu Ram Mehta (Kshatriya) from the holy womb of mother Shrimati Tripta Devi in a village named Talwandi of District Lahore in West Pakistan. He had read Farsi (Persian), Punjabi, Sanskrit languages. He used to study Shrimad Bhagavad Gita ji from Pandit Shri Brijlal. Shri Nanak Dev ji had two sons named Shri Chand and Lakhmi Chand.

Shri Nanak ji used to work in the store of the Nawab of Sutanpur by the grace of his brother-in-law Shri Jairam ji in the town of in-laws of his sister Nanaki. He had boundless love in God because this pious soul had done holy bhakti of Brahm God (Kaal) through the ages. In Satyayug this very Nanak ji was King Ambreesh and used to do Brahm-bhakti considering Vishnu ji as his deity. Great ascetic sage like Durvasa accepting defeat had gone in his kingdom to seek forgiveness.

In Treta Yug, the soul of Shri Nanak ji became King Janak Videhi, who came to be known as Sita ji’s father. Sage Sukhdev who was son of Great sage Vedvyaas used to fly in the sky with his supernatural power, but had not taken initiation from a Guru. When Sukhdev went to the Heaven of Vishnulok, he was returned because of not having a Guru. By the order of Vishnu ji, he made King Janak his Guru and then obtained a place in Heaven.

Then in Kalyug, the soul of this very King Janak took birth in a Hindu family of Shri Kaluram Mehta (Kshatriya) and was named Shri Nanak.

Entrance into River Bein

“Jeevan Das Guru Saahibaan”, Page no. 42 to 44 (Writer – Sodi Teja Singh ji) – (Publisher – Chatar Singh Jeevan Singh)

As it is excerpt from “Jeevan Das Guru Saheb”

Every morning Guru ji used to go for bath in River Bein, which used to flow near the city Sultanpur. One day when you plunged into water, you did not come out. After some time, your servant, who holding clothes was sitting on the bank of the river, went home and gave the news to Jai Ram ji that Nanak ji has drowned, then Jai Ram ji went to the river taking along the divers. They searched a lot for you, but you were not found. After searching a lot, everybody returned to his homes.

Great concern and distress was being expressed at Brother Jai Ram ji’s house, when on the third day in the morning only a devotee taking bath came home and told sister that your brother is sitting on the bank of the river. On hearing this, Brother Jai Ram ji ran towards Bein, and as the news spread many more people also arrived there. When in this way you were surrounded by people, you quietly reached at your shop. A crowd of women and men started coming at the shop with you. On seeing the crowd, Guru ji opened the door of the store, and said whatever one needs may take it. After getting the store plundered, Guru ji wearing the attire of a Fakir went and sat in a graveyard. When the Nawab got the news of plundering of the store and departure of Guru ji, he sent for Jai ram and got the account of the books inquired by the clerk. After seeing the accounts, the clerk told that the government owes Rs 760 to Guru ji. On hearing this the Nawab became very happy. He called for Guru ji and said that don’t be upset. Taking your balance amount continue the job of store. But Guru ji said that now I will not do this job. God has ordered me to do some other job. The Nawab asked what have you been ordered? The Guru ji uttered the Mool-mantra (original mantra).

Ek Onkaar Satnaamu Karta Purkhu Nirbhau Nirvairu Akaal Moorti Ajooni Sab Guruprasaad ।

The Nawab asked that when did your God gave this order? Guru ji told that when I had gone to bathe in River Bein, I had gone to Sachkhand from there to my Lord, there I was ordered that Nanak ji, you chant this mantra and by making others chant convey the people of Kalyug across. Therefore I have to now obey this order of my Master. Brother Gurdas ji writes this context in Vaar 1 paudi 24 –

Baba paidha sachkhand naunidhi naam garibi paai।।

Meaning – Baba Nanak ji went to Sachkhand. There you attained the treasure of nine riches, naam and fearlessness. Here on the bank of Bein, where Guru ji appeared after coming out of Bein, a Saint ghat by Guru and a very beautiful Gurudwara Ber Saheb has been built. On this very place Guru ji after bathing in the morning used to sit for some time in the meditation of God.

End of excerpt from book named ‘Jeevan Das Guru Saheb’

Special Consideration:- There is no evidence in the entire Guru Granth Sahib that God Kabir Ji was Guruji of Shri Nanak ji. Like Guru Granth is respectable and authentic, similarly Holy Kabir Sagar is also respectable and authentic scripture and was written before Shri Guru Granth Sahib. Therefore around 4000 Bani has been taken in to Guru Granth Sahib from Kabir Sagar only. There is a vivid description about the dialogue between God Kabir Ji and Nanak ji in Kabir Sagar and that the venerable Gurudev of Nanak ji were God Kabir. Please read below

For special reference, excerpt from Kabir Sagar (Swasam bed bodh) Page no. 158 - 159:-

नानकशाह कीन्हा तप भारी। सब विधि भये ज्ञान अधिकारी।।
भक्ति भाव ताको समिझाया। तापर सतगुरु कीनो दाया।।
जिंदा रूप धरयो तब भाई। हम पंजाब देश चलि आई।।
अनहद बानी कियौ पुकारा। सुनिकै नानक दरश निहारा।।
सुनिके अमर लोककी बानी। जानि परा निज समरथ ज्ञानी।।

नानक वचन (Nanak Speech)

आवा पुरूष महागुरु ज्ञानी। अमरलोकी सुनी न बानी।।
अर्ज सुनो प्रभु जिंदा स्वामी। कहँ अमरलोक रहा निजधामी।।
काहु न कही अमर निजबानी। धन्य कबीर परमगुरु ज्ञानी।।
कोई न पावै तुमरो भेदा। खोज थके ब्रह्मा चहुँ वेदा।।

जिन्दा वचन (Jinda Speech)

नानक तव बहुतै तप कीना। निरंकार बहुते दिन चीन्हा।।
निरंकारते पुरूष निनारा। अजर द्वीप ताकी टकसारा।।
पुरूष बिछोह भयौ तव जबते। काल कठिन मग रोंक्यौ तबते।।
इत तव सरिस भक्त नहिं होई। क्यों कि परमपुरूष न भेटेंउ कोई।।
जबते हमते बिछुरे भाई। साठि हजार जन्म भक्त तुम पाई।।
धरि धरि जन्म भक्ति भलकीना। फिर काल चक्र निरंजन दीना।।
गहु मम शब्द तो उतरो पारा। बिन सत शब्द लहै यम द्वारा।।
तुम बड़ भक्त भवसागर आवा। और जीवकी कौन चलावा।।
निरंकार सब सृष्टि भुलावा। तुम करि भक्तिलौटि क्यों आवा।।

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