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Controversial A preacher telling Guru Nanaks guru was kabir and other misinterpretations

Discussion in 'Hard Talk' started by sajsikh, Jul 3, 2012.

  1. sajsikh

    sajsikh
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    Hello folks, now i never want to start inter religion controversy but this one is surely of the next level for example he says kabir is guru of guru nanak!!!!

    and he says god is not nirakar but sakar example he gives is this


    मलार महला १ ॥ (Page 1257, श्री गुरु ग्रंथ साहिब जी) - गुरु नानक देव जी की बानी
    बागे कापड़ बोलै बैण ॥

    लमा नकु काले तेरे नैण ॥

    कबहूं साहिबु देखिआ भैण ॥१॥

    ऊडां ऊडि चड़ां असमानि ॥

    साहिब सम्रिथ तेरै ताणि ॥

    जलि थलि डूंगरि देखां तीर ॥

    थान थनंतरि साहिबु बीर ॥२॥

    जिनि तनु साजि दीए नालि ख्मभ ॥

    अति त्रिसना उडणै की डंझ ॥

    नदरि करे तां बंधां धीर ॥

    जिउ वेखाले तिउ वेखां बीर ॥३॥

    न इहु तनु जाइगा न जाहिगे ख्मभ ॥

    पउणै पाणी अगनी का सनबंध ॥

    नानक करमु होवै जपीऐ करि गुरु पीरु ॥

    सचि समावै एहु सरीरु ॥४॥४॥९॥



    You wear white clothes, and speak sweet words. Your nose is sharp, and your eyes are black. Have you ever seen your Lord and Master, O sister? ||1|| I fly and soar, and ascend to the heavens. By Your power, O my All-powerful Lord and Master. I see Him in the water, on the land, in the mountains, on the river-banks, in all places and interspaces, O brother. ||2|| He fashioned the body, and gave it wings; He gave it great thirst and desire to fly. When He bestows His Glance of Grace, I am comforted and consoled. As He makes me see, so do I see, O brother. ||3|| Neither this body, nor its wings, shall go to the world hereafter. It is a fusion of air, water and fire. O Nanak, if it is in the mortal's karma, then he meditates on the Lord, with the Guru as his Spiritual Teacher. This body is absorbed in the Truth. ||4||4||9||



    Guru Nanak Dev Ji is seeing and addressing the Supreme God and is describing Him very beautifully and is clearly saying that you are wearing white clothes and you have a beautiful nose and black eyes.
     
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  3. Kanwaljit Singh

    Kanwaljit Singh India
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    Is it taken from this website?

    http://www.spiritual.comuv.com/god_in_form_guru_granth_sahib.html

    ਜਲਿ ਥਲਿ ਡੂੰਗਰਿ ਦੇਖਾਂ ਤੀਰ ॥
    I see Him in the water, on the land, in the mountains, on the river-banks

    Now consider the above line. You see God in water, land, mountains and river banks. Describe the form of water? How would you? Does water have any shape? Isn't it Nirakar itself? We see God in various shapes (akars) but we cannot define His Akar to anyone! How helpless are we!

    Did you know that Maharaja Ranjit Singh was taught to fight and rule by the Britishers? Never heard of it? Well now I have said it.

    Just because two men were blessed with Bhagti, you can't come to conclusion without historical evidence. And how does that affect you? Are you in doubt if you are a Sikh or a Kabeer Panthi? A little 'new' history and a new label will take you into another duality.
     
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  4. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    a REAL SIKH does QUESTION..but he questions what the Teacher Teaches...like Sir I DONT GET this..or that..or how do i get to meet the Beloved..how do i become One with Him..etc etc. The Real SIKH doenst Question..who is my teacher..is it YOU who stand before me teaching..or is the one i left standing by the corner..shall i run out to him..or stay here in Class....THAT TYPE of DOUBTING JONES wont get anywhere...He got NOTHING to learn either form KABIR or from Nanak Ji..He will learn NOTHING..just running from pillar to post.

    Guru nanak ji gave Baghat KABIR JI sharomani Bhagat Status..chose his Bani to sit at par with His own..its GURBANI and all sikhs bow to it and LEARN FROM It. WE also LEARN from Guur nanak jis Bani..and also many others who are in SGGS.

    However there is NO COMPULSION..If one beleives he should just listen ONLY to Kabir Ji..its his wish...he can do so for as long a s he wishes..so WHAT ?? ITS CHURNING WATER ONCE AGAIN....churning water produces only BUBBLES OF AIR...not butter. Its KABIR JI who wrote..the HOLY SAINTS..churn the MILK and EAT the CREAM and the BUTTER.......ordinary doubters drink the WASTE left behind...!!! Choose what you want- cream butter or waste ??
     
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  5. Kanwaljit Singh

    Kanwaljit Singh India
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    Even if one only listens to Kabir ji's Baani and follows it earnestly, they will be blessed. But reducing the no. of Baanis you read doesn't mean that you are reading your selected Baanis more frequently or more attentively.

    PS: I am still unsure if SajSikh meant anything we are talking about
     
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  6. Gyani Jarnail Singh

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    YES Jios..Its KABIR JI who says..EK gharree aadhi gharree aadhee hun te aadh...even a BLINK of an eye...to FOLLOW HIM is enough...and the SGGS is a Vast OCEAN..no one can really say he has completed it all....
     
  7. Kanwaljit Singh

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  8. Randip Singh

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    The message or Nanak and Kabir maybe similar in parts but they are MILES apart on certain issues. For this reason and historical fact, Kabir was not the Guru of Nanak.

    Read this and lets dispell this nonsense for once and for all:

    http://sikhinstitute.org/conn_th_dots/ch3.htm

    Bhagat Kabir (1398 - 1518 CE)

    To honour the tradition of the Kabirpanthis, 1518 has been recorded here as the date of death of this mystic poet. According to them, Bhagat Kabir lived for 120 years from 1398-1518. But scholarly research puts his life span from 1398 to 1448.
    An interesting story is told, as to how Kabir made Ramanand agree to be his Guru, although the latter took only Brahmins as his disciples. But, it lacks credibility as according to the code of guru-shish relationship in India, it is hypocritical not to tell the name of one’s guru, as Guru Amar Das says:

    He who conceals his guru
    Will have no place to rest.1

    Guru Ramdas also says:
    He who conceals the name of his guru
    Is not a good person.2

    Kabir in his compositions clearly says, that his guru is Satguru, who is omnipresent, and lives deep within one’s heart.
    He also says:
    I know the One God who is from the beginning.
    I do not believe in those whom He created and destroyed.3
    Regarding the “Ram” that he often mentioned in padas (and is also mentioned in the Guru Granth Sahib) Kabir had explained:
    Make the Lord your companion
    And be free of joy and sorrow
    He was not born as Dashrath’s son,
    Nor did he kill the king of Lanka;
    He issued not from Devki’s womb,
    Nor was he reared by Yashodha. …
    And He is not the one that passed away at Dwarka…
    He is the One who is beyond these
    And keeps the world going.

    (Jodh Singh, Kabir, p 40; cf Dr. Parasnath Tiwari, Ramaini of Kabir, p 74)


    Similarly it would be incorrect to say, that Kabir was Guru Nanak’s Guru, just because of similarity in their views. Guru Nanak’s guru also was none other than Satguru. (Sidh Gosht, GGS, p 972)
    Had it been otherwise we would not have had Nanak II and Nanak III, we would have had Kabir II and Kabir III or Ramanand III and Ramanand IV. In the Guru Granth Sahib, where the bani of the Gurus is given in each Raga, in chronological order, and then follow compositions of various Bhagats, with Kabir’s bani placed first—and in some cases also at the end. If the lineage of gurus had started from Ramanand, his bani would have been given first position.

    In the entire bani of Guru Nanak in the Guru Granth Sahib, Kabir’s name is not mentioned even once. (Jodh Singh, Kabir, p 25, Patiala: Punjabi University.)

    In Sidh-Gosht (GGS, p 942) the Sidhs directly ask Nanak, “Who is your guru, and whose disciple are you?” Guru Nanak replies: “The Lord is my Guru, and I am His disciple.”

    Kabir’s reputation as a man of God was so high, that his followers said: Kabir was not born of a woman but descended straight from the heavens, into the heart of a lotus flower, and newly married Nima and her husband Niru picked up the celestial baby and raised him. Coincidentally, to give the child a name, when the qazi consulted the Quran, the name he got was Kabir, which in Arabic is an attribute of God.


    Kabir went through no schooling, but to earn his living went to Benares, famous for its learned personage. In his compositions he tells us he liked the company of holy persons for exchange of views.4
    Not depending on tradition, we can trace his life and understand his philosophy from the voluminous treasure of his compositions that is available.


    Guru Nanak during his sojourns visited Benares also. He found echo of his own thoughts in the hymns of Kabir. He collected some of them, and probably sang them accompanied by Mardana’s rebeck (rabab). He handed over his notebooks to Bhai Lehna (Guru Angad Dev), when he passed on the spiritual torch to him in 1539. Guru Angad’s successor, Guru Amar Das, added to that collection, as he had been a regular visitor to Haridwar, which was another center of religious scholars, and mendicants who collected in their repertoire all they found easy to sing. This collection of Guru Amar Das, was used by Guru Arjun Dev in compiling the Adi Granth – sealed, bound and placed in the Harimandar in 1604, as a spiritual beacon for mankind.
    All references below are from Guru Granth Sahib.

    Kabir’s Life


    Kabir tells us: He was a weaver of Benares.(p 970) His Muslim mother did not like Hindu skinhead sadhus frequenting their house, and giving them Hindu nicknames.(p 484) Kabir’s wife and his mother were fed up with that regular inflow of sadhus who ate their bellies full, while Kabir’s own daughter and his two sons were being deprived of their basic needs — because Kabir was spending most of his time in the company of sadhus, neglecting the weaving work, which was source of their livelihood. They complained; they sighed and cried that Kabir did not talk about the loom, the warp, the beam or the shuttle; instead it was the word of God that was all over him. (p 524) But, Kabir himself enjoyed the company of holy men exchanging with them his views, diametrically opposite to those of the Brahmins, who he thought would go to hell. Brahmins tried to drown him in the Ganges (p 1162). Muslims considered him a *****, and complained against him. The qazi punished him to be trampled by an elephant. But, despite the mahawat’s multiple attempts to goad him to put his foot on Kabir, the elephant did not move forward; instead, he picked him up in his trunk and saluted several times. (pp 870-71)

    He says, “I am a weaver of Kashi” (p 970). “People make fun of my caste, but I am proud of it”.(p 1364) But, he is also happy, to ‘lose’ his caste by mingling with sadhus, Brahmins and people of all walks of life.(p 484)


    Kabir’s Beliefs

    God is purest of the pure (p 727). “I know one God, who is from the beginning! I do not believe in those, whom He created and destroyed”.(p 340) “I am Thy son, Thou art my father; Both of us live in the same place – this body” (p 333). God is found through devotion. “There is no salvation without the name of God.” (p 1157) Salvation means union with the Supreme Reality.


    Kabir’s Message

    There is one God – the Creator. “The Lord is One O qazi”. (p 483) “The Creator pervades the creation everywhere; the same clay has been moulded into diverse forms.”(p 1349) “In Hindus and Muslims, pervades the same God, Kabir proclaims it aloud”.(p 483) “Let the name [of God] be thy sustenance;…Make righteousness and compassion thy garden.”(p 970) “Destroy lust, anger and pride.”(p 1349)
    Kabir condemned forcible conversions. “Says Kabir, what is done by force is tyranny, thou deemest it lawful [O qazi!].”(p 1374) He condemned hypocrisy, superstitions, idol worship, and false beliefs: “They buy idols and worship them, and with an obstinate mind go and bathe in holy places….Missing [the real path] they wander astray. They made a stone into a god, and multitudes worship it. Those who put their faith in it [for salvation] will drown midstream.”(p 1371)
    He condemns the caste discrimination:
    “How art thou a Brahmin and how am I a Shudra? Does milk flow in thy veins and blood in mine?”(p 324)
    Bluntly, Kabir asks the Brahmin:
    “If you are a Brahmin, born of a Brahmin woman,
    Why did you not take birth from another way”?5


    Kabir was not influenced by the common ‘belief’ that one who dies in Kashi goes straight to the heaven. To condemn such a superstition, after living most of his life in Kashi, towards the end of his life he moved to Maghar — a place given a bad reputation, that one who dies in Maghar will be reborn as an ***. He said, “I think Kashi and Maghar to be equal.” (p 326) And, that is where he breathed his last leaving behind thousands of admirers – both Hindus and Muslims. As per tradition, the Hindus wanted to cremate him, but the Muslims wanted to bury him. When they picked up the shroud, instead of his body they found a layer of flowers. “Born from a flower, he returned to flowers.”
    [243 verses of Bhagat Kabir are contained in the Guru Granth Sahib.]
     
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    #7 Randip Singh, Jul 5, 2012
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  9. Astroboy

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    Any of the sects can make such claims that Guru Nanak had a Living Guru. Say for example, the Ravidasis also can say the following:-

    Further reading: http://www.gururavidassguruji.com/satgururavidassmaharaj.htm
     
  10. sajsikh

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    Hello , its really strange that you form opinions so easily. I put my question in historical context , i want to know the opinion of others on what this person is saying.
    I am not running anywhere my beliefs are my own i dont change them due to anything or anyone.
    What i mean is that you see this person on national tv proclaiming that kabir was guru of guru nanak and also openly invites debate , proclaiming what he tells is the only truth.
    I am asking this cause i want to know from much knowledgeable people. It here dosent make any difference on my beliefs ,but if someone says his guru was guru of my guru than surely i wanna know what he says . ok need to see what he says
    http://www.kabirsahib.jagatgururampalji.org/nanak.php
     
  11. Randip Singh

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    In a nutshell, Kabir believed in Ahimsa, Nanak did not, so there is no way Nanak is of Kabir. There is a fundemental deviance of belief here.
     
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  12. Gyani Jarnail Singh

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    Thats the entire problem randip Ji..NUT(SHELL)...a lot of people simply dont wnat to go to the trouble of SHELLING the NUT..so they keep BITING the shell and saying..thats damn hard..nearly broke my teeth..but as you and i know..the REAL ALMOND is only arrived at after the shell is broken...which is adifficult job many prefer not to do..
     
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  13. Randip Singh

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    I think this stems from the common misconceptions that:

    1) Ahimsa means Daya. Clearly it does not.
    2) Ahimsa rejection means Himsa.

    Both arguments usually put forward by the ignorant.
     
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  14. sajsikh

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    in A NUT shell you didnt read my reply with link to article, so in a nutshell you agree or approve dat guru nanaks guru was Kabir. was expecting some imformed bro rather than discussing concepts i know em all wat i am asking is dat is it really ossible
     
  15. Gyani Jarnail Singh

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    NO ONE HERE agrees with Kabir being Guru Nanak Jis Guru. !! SIKHS beleive Guru nanak to be AAD GURU..straight form the Creator with an ORIGINAL MESSAGE to deliver to mankind.period. And the absolutely beautiful thing is GURU NANAK JI HIMSELF..."shelled" all those difficult..hardened NUTS...and GIFTED the sweet ALMONDS to His SIKHS...so we need not go about breaking our front teeth on NUTS. SIKHS get an entire THAAL FILLED with already shelled..( even soaked overnight) ALMONDS to savour in the SGGS...courtesy of GURU JI Sahibs...why would we even "look" at NUTS and NUT Cases...no matter whether links are provided or not...The SGGS is clearly ORIGINAL and different form other spiritual paths that may have come earlier on...BUT the Nanak House is the ONLY COMPLETED MANSION in a colony of half or quarter completed mud huts...japposatnamwaheguru:0:)
     
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  16. Luckysingh

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    Who agree's with this????
    How did this nonsense even arise ????
    If I can be as humble as Guru Nanak and say that YOU are my guru, I am infact saying that I am the lowly and among the sangat, this whole sangat is my guru. I am NOT saying that you alone are a single guru for me!!!!
     
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