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Did God create an imperfect world?

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  #28 (permalink)  
Old 23-Mar-2010, 10:25 AM
Narayanjot Kaur's Avatar Narayanjot Kaur Narayanjot Kaur is offline
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Re: Did God create an imperfect world?

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mai Harinder Kaur View Post
I take that particular argument to mean that - since there is only one God - we all worship the same one, whether we know it or not and however different our notions of the Supreme Being. Irene, however, has very firmly told me, "Your God doesn't hate evil. He is not right-eous!! WE DO NOT WORSHIP THE SAME GOD!!!" And who am I to argue with the good Irene?

But, as you say, that's off-topic.

khandaa
I agree with Irene for once. She and I don't worship the same god.


Do you agree or disagree with the writer above? Why not share your immediate thoughts with us! Login Now! or Sign Up Today! to share your views... Gurfateh!
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ਜੇ ਕੋ ਮੂੰ ਉਪਦੇਸੁ ਕਰਤੁ ਹੈ ਤਾ ਵਣਿ ਤ੍ਰਿਣਿ ਰਤੜਾ ਨਾਰਾਇਣਾ ॥
jae ko moon oupadhaes karath hai thaa van thrin ratharraa naaraaeinaa ||
If someone is going to teach me something, let that be that the Lord is pervading the forests and fields.
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old 23-Mar-2010, 12:48 PM
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Re: Did God create an imperfect world?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tejwant Singh View Post
Isaiah 45:7 (King James Version)


I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Similary in Gita, Krishna in chapter four item 6 says, 'Though I am eternal, imperishable, and the Lord of all beings; yet I (voluntarily) manifest by controlling My own material nature using My Yoga-Maya., the mystic power of Brahman. (See also 10.14).

07. Whenever there is a decline of Dharma and the rise of Adharma, O Arjuna, then I manifest (or incarnate) Myself.

08. I incarnate in every age for protecting the good, for punishing or
transforming the wicked, and for the establishment of Dharma

Best regards
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old 23-Mar-2010, 21:01 PM
Taranjeet singh's Avatar Taranjeet singh Taranjeet singh is offline
 
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Re: Did God create an imperfect world?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tejwant Singh View Post
Taranjeet ji,

Guru fateh.

1.Would you be kind enough to list the things in the Divine Order?

2.Are all kinds of diseases and sicknesses included in this?

3.How can good lie in someone's misery? Can you please give some examples?

Thanks

Tejwant Singh
Respected Tejwant ji

The expression or words ‘Divine order’ have been used in context of Sikhism and would mean ‘Hukum.’

Answer1.

The entire creation is the manifestation of His Hukum [‘shabda’ or ‘naam’]. Earlier writers have addressed this to be sabad-Guru as differentiated from the Guru Granth sahib ji which also we call as ‘shabad-Guru’. Hukum or Will have been used interchangeably by the translators.

Hukum [sabda] existed before the coming of our Gurus or before sikh religion came into being. It is through hukum that the entire creation came into being. The body of the mortal and its journey through the womb, birth and death, cycle of re-incarnations and the transmigration of soul is governed by Hukum. Every one is within the Hukum. Our status in this material world whether Low or high, is also decided as per Hukum. To what extent we shall rise in our spiritual journey and material world is also as per Hukum. Our liberation and bondage or wanderings i.e. reincarnation is as per Hukum. Above all the directory force to mind, where the inter-play of the thoughts related to Siva and Sakti takes place, is also governed by Hukum. In nutshell, right from the inception of soul and its journey to this world through the womb till it meets its final destination is as per Hukum. This is the small list that I can think of. You may kindly advise.

Answer.2

Coming to the specifics it can be stated that God is the giver of pain and pleasure and working with the basic premise that everything that comes from Him has to be good for the mortal, the pain and pleasure are to be treated at par or same.

Pain is the outcome of excessive indulgence in pleasures derived from senses when the mind remains constantly engaged in Maya or attachment to the worldly professions through the senses and the five evils prevail. Sickness is also to be treated in the category of pain. This can be made tolerable by treating this as the gift of God. Whatever the Lord orders has to be treated as gift from Him. It is the only way to accept Hukum.

Going back to the discussion of the causes of the pain. The pain is the direct outcome of making our ‘self ‘deprived of His remembrance. Physical pleasures are only transitory. The tendency to seek physical pleasures is distraction for the mind. Guru Sahibs have cautioned to not to indulge in physical pleasures as this is not the purpose of life:
ਬਾਰੂ ਭੀਤਿ ਬਨਾਈ ਰਚਿ ਪਚਿ ਰਹਤ ਨਹੀ ਦਿਨ ਚਾਰਿ ॥
baaroo bheeth banaaee rach pach rehath nehee dhin chaar ||
Like a wall of sand, built up and plastered with great care, which does not last even a few days,
ਤੈਸੇ ਹੀ ਇਹ ਸੁਖ ਮਾਇਆ ਕੇ ਉਰਝਿਓ ਕਹਾ ਗਵਾਰ ॥੧॥
thaisae hee eih sukh maaeiaa kae ourajhiou kehaa gavaar ||1||
just so are the pleasures of Maya. Why are you entangled in them, you ignorant fool? ||1||

The soul has also to be fed by making it in contact with the Lord through various methods. This pleasure is not temporary. If practiced for a long period of time one can attain the state of bliss. Thus following this route one becomes contended and mind tends to become stable. Once the fickle mindedness is gone one can practice the formula of treating pain and pleasure alike and remain in self. Mind’s wandering can also be arrested. Thus the superiority of the spiritual life vis a vis materialistic way of life, where the soul gets its feed through simran, meditation or practicing Bani, has been accepted as the basic principle of life in Sikhism.

I sum up this with a very beautiful shabad of Ninth Nanak

Forgive me but I have edited with a font adjustment

ਸੋਰਠਿ ਮਹਲਾ ੯ ॥
sorath mehalaa 9 ||
Sorat'h, Ninth Mehl:

ਜੋ ਨਰੁ ਦੁਖ ਮੈ ਦੁਖੁ ਨਹੀ ਮਾਨੈ ॥
jo nar dhukh mai dhukh nehee maanai ||
That man, who in the midst of pain, does not feel pain,


ਸੁਖ ਸਨੇਹੁ ਅਰੁ ਭੈ ਨਹੀ ਜਾ ਕੈ ਕੰਚਨ ਮਾਟੀ ਮਾਨੈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
sukh sanaehu ar bhai nehee jaa kai kanchan maattee maanai ||1|| rehaao ||
who is not affected by pleasure, affection or fear, and who looks alike upon gold and dust;||1||Pause||


ਨਹ ਨਿੰਦਿਆ ਨਹ ਉਸਤਤਿ ਜਾ ਕੈ ਲੋਭੁ ਮੋਹੁ ਅਭਿਮਾਨਾ ॥
neh nindhiaa neh ousathath jaa kai lobh mohu abhimaanaa ||
Who is not swayed by either slander or praise, nor affected by greed, attachment or pride;


ਹਰਖ ਸੋਗ ਤੇ ਰਹੈ ਨਿਆਰਉ ਨਾਹਿ ਮਾਨ ਅਪਮਾਨਾ ॥੧॥
harakh sog thae rehai niaaro naahi maan apamaanaa ||1||
who remains unaffected by joy and sorrow, honor and dishonor;||1||


ਆਸਾ ਮਨਸਾ ਸਗਲ ਤਿਆਗੈ ਜਗ ਤੇ ਰਹੈ ਨਿਰਾਸਾ ॥
aasaa manasaa sagal thiaagai jag thae rehai niraasaa ||
who renounces all hopes and desires and remains desireless in the world;


ਕਾਮੁ ਕ੍ਰੋਧੁ ਜਿਹ ਪਰਸੈ ਨਾਹਨਿ ਤਿਹ ਘਟਿ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਨਿਵਾਸਾ ॥੨॥
kaam krodhh jih parasai naahan thih ghatt breham nivaasaa ||2||
who is not touched by sexual desire or anger - within his heart, God dwells. ||2||

ਗੁਰ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਜਿਹ ਨਰ ਕਉ ਕੀਨੀ ਤਿਹ ਇਹ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਪਛਾਨੀ ॥
gur kirapaa jih nar ko keenee thih eih jugath pashhaanee ||
That man, blessed by Guru's Grace, understands this way.

ਨਾਨਕ ਲੀਨ ਭਇਓ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਸਿਉ ਜਿਉ ਪਾਨੀ ਸੰਗਿ ਪਾਨੀ ॥੩॥੧੧॥
naanak leen bhaeiou gobindh sio jio paanee sang paanee ||3||11||
O Nanak, he merges with the Lord of the Universe, like water with water. ||3||11||
(Ang 633)

Answer.3

After answering the first two questions there remains no need for answering the third question as the answer is contained in the second answer.

However, for the sake of completeness I shall touch upon the subject as per my little understanding of the things. The aim of life or the objective of life has been summed up beautifully in the single line:

Bhai Prapat Manukh Dehoria
Gobind Milan Ki eh Teri baria


The more I grow the more I feel that it is so.
For this we have to remember the Almighty and practice Naam/keeratn in sangat etc.

If one falls sick and is in pain or is in misery one tends to remember God which is generally forgotten when we are happy. Hence sickness is a blessing in disguise to remind us that there is someone who has given us all that He has given us and we should remember Him and also fulfill the purpose of coming on the earth that has been stated above. Thus Dukh becomes Daru for the Rog that has evolved on account of ‘sukh’.

Dukh Daru sukh Rog Bhaya.

There is also another line that I remember:

Har Bisrat sda Khuari.

There is another line that speaks almost the same:

ਇਕੁ ਤਿਲੁ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਵੀਸਰੈ ਰੋਗੁ ਵਡਾ ਮਨ ਮਾਹਿ ॥
[Forgetting the Beloved, even for a moment, the mind is afflicted with terrible diseases.]

Thus the pain makes one to return back to the Path and the soul is put back on track to be in touch with the Almighty, the Super-consciousness.


Regards,

I hope Gurmukhi fonts are Ok.
E& OE
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  #31 (permalink)  
Old 23-Mar-2010, 21:20 PM
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Re: Did God create an imperfect world?

Lokas Or Planes: The Seven Planes

By Sri Swami Sivananda




There are seven planes. They are Bhuloka (earth plane), Bhuvarloka (Antariksha or the astral plane), Svargaloka (heaven or the mental plane), Maharloka, Janaloka, Tapoloka and Satyaloka (Brahmaloka or the world of Brahma, the Creator). Tapasvins dwell in Tapoloka. If you keep different kinds of lights in a room such as kerosene , mustard oil light, petromax, candle light, electric light; the various lights interpenetrate in the room. Even so, the Lokas interpenetrate. Each plane has its own matter of an appropriate degree of destiny, which interpenetrates the matter of the plane next below it.
The astral plane, or Bhuvarloka, interpenetrates the earth plane and extends for some distance beyond it. The mental plane interpenetrates the astral but also extends further into space than does the latter. The vibrations of the astral world are more rapid or quicker than those of the physical plane. The vibrations of the mental plane are more rapid or quicker than those of the astral plane. The vibrations of the Satyaloka are more rapid or quicker than those of the mental plane. In each plane the soul develops a new and higher sense of power.
When you pass from one plane to another you do not move in space. You simply change your consciousness. You change your focus of consciousness. You can have different sorts of vision through the or microscope by using lenses of different degrees of potency or power. You have got different vehicles within yourself which correspond to different planes and which can function in different planes.
In the dreaming state your astral body functions. In the deep sleep state your causal body functions. Even so, in the astral plane your astral body operates, in the mental plane your mental body operates, in the Brahmaloka your causal body functions. Each plane is formed by matter of different degrees of density. In the mental plane the matter is subtler than in the astral plane. In the causal plane the matter is subtler than the matter of mental plane. The planes occupy the same position in space. Heaven is here. Brahmaloka is here. Have a different vehicle or body and a different subtler eye. You can function in any plane.
In the physical plane one gets knowledge of objects through the five Jnana-Indriyas or organs of knowledge, viz., ear, skin, eye, tongue, nose. In the mental plane or heaven he does not hear, see and feel by separate and finite organs. He gets a Divya Chakshus or divine eye, an extraordinary new power or faculty. He can hear, see, feel and know everything of an object instantaneously, through this new mental eye. He gets an accurate and perfect knowledge of all objects. He is not deceived or misled by any external appearance. There is no misunderstanding.
In the mind all the powers of all the senses are blended. Mind is a mixture or compound of all the organs. It can hear, see, taste, smell and feel.
He can get everything by mere Sankalpa or willing. If he thinks of a celestial , it is there before him at once. If he thinks of a place, he is there immediately. If he thinks of a person, he is before him at once. There is no distance for him. There is no feeling of separation for him. He reads the thoughts of others. Hence, questions and answers are not necessary in the mental plane. The interchange of ideas is very quick.
He can know the past and the future also. He is endowed with clairvoyance and clairaudience. He can simultaneously manifest himself in various forms.
Heaven is a plane of enjoyment only. It is a place to reap the of one�s good Karmas done in the earth-plane. One cannot do fresh Karmas there. He cannot attain Moksha or the final emancipation from there. He will have to come down to this earth again for trying for his salvation.
Indra, Varuna, Agni, etc., are the original Devatas or gods of heaven. There are Karma-Devas also here. These are men who have raised themselves to the status of Devas through meritorious actions done in the earth-plane. A Deva has a luminous fire body. Fire preponderates. The Devas exhibit different degrees of brilliance in accordance with different degrees of advancement.
There is neither day nor night for a Deva, or an inhabitant of the mental plane, or heaven. He is neither sleeping nor waking. When he enters heaven he experiences intense happiness. This is his waking state. He sinks into a state of unconsciousness when the term of life in heaven terminates.
Brahmaloka is the world of Brahma or Hiranyagarbha. This is also known by the name Satyaloka. Those who go by the path of Devayana reach this plane. Those who perform meritorious actions without expectation of fruits and who lead the life of purity and righteousness and those who worship Hiranyagarbha and all realised Bhaktas will go to this realm.
They attain Krama-Mukti or emancipation. They enjoy all the Divine Aisvaryas of the Lord and in the end of the cycle merge themselves in Para Brahman along with Brahma, the Creator.
Brahmaloka becomes Vaikuntha or appears as Vaikuntha for a devotee of Lord Hari. It becomes Kailasa or Sivaloka or appears as Sivaloka for a devotee of Lord Siva. It is the attitude that works.

Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/atheism/29599-did-god-create-an-imperfect-world.html
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=29599
* * *
Lokas Or Planes: The Seven Planes
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Old 24-Mar-2010, 01:41 AM
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Re: Did God create an imperfect world?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jasbirkaleka View Post
Tejwant ji,
Guru Fateh,
Thanks for sparing some moments from your precious time to communicate with me, in-spite of a somewhat provocative post.And,like a true Sikh of the Gurus, I truly appreciate your full faith in Wahe-Guru and His Hukum.
Jasbir ji,

Guru Fateh.

I beg to differ with you. This forum in my opinion is like a Spiritual well where we all gather to quench out thirst, no matter what our belief or understanding of "God" is. Only by interacting in an honest and open manner we can understand our inner selves better.

So, interacting with people like you in this forum is more about my own selfish reasons.

Regards

Tejwant Singh
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Old 24-Mar-2010, 06:53 AM
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Re: Did God create an imperfect world?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taranjeet singh View Post
Respected Tejwant ji

The expression or words ‘Divine order’ have been used in context of Sikhism and would mean ‘Hukum.’


Answer1.

The entire creation is the manifestation of His Hukum [‘shabda’ or ‘naam’]. Earlier writers have addressed this to be sabad-Guru as differentiated from the Guru Granth sahib ji which also we call as ‘shabad-Guru’. Hukum or Will have been used interchangeably by the translators.

Hukum [sabda] existed before the coming of our Gurus or before sikh religion came into being. It is through hukum that the entire creation came into being. The body of the mortal and its journey through the womb, birth and death, cycle of re-incarnations and the transmigration of soul is governed by Hukum. Every one is within the Hukum. Our status in this material world whether Low or high, is also decided as per Hukum. To what extent we shall rise in our spiritual journey and material world is also as per Hukum. Our liberation and bondage or wanderings i.e. reincarnation is as per Hukum. Above all the directory force to mind, where the inter-play of the thoughts related to Siva and Sakti takes place, is also governed by Hukum. In nutshell, right from the inception of soul and its journey to this world through the womb till it meets its final destination is as per Hukum. This is the small list that I can think of. You may kindly advise.

Answer.2

Coming to the specifics it can be stated that God is the giver of pain and pleasure and working with the basic premise that everything that comes from Him has to be good for the mortal, the pain and pleasure are to be treated at par or same.

Pain is the outcome of excessive indulgence in pleasures derived from senses when the mind remains constantly engaged in Maya or attachment to the worldly professions through the senses and the five evils prevail. Sickness is also to be treated in the category of pain. This can be made tolerable by treating this as the gift of God. Whatever the Lord orders has to be treated as gift from Him. It is the only way to accept Hukum.

Going back to the discussion of the causes of the pain. The pain is the direct outcome of making our ‘self ‘deprived of His remembrance. Physical pleasures are only transitory. The tendency to seek physical pleasures is distraction for the mind. Guru Sahibs have cautioned to not to indulge in physical pleasures as this is not the purpose of life:
ਬਾਰੂ ਭੀਤਿ ਬਨਾਈ ਰਚਿ ਪਚਿ ਰਹਤ ਨਹੀ ਦਿਨ ਚਾਰਿ ॥
baaroo bheeth banaaee rach pach rehath nehee dhin chaar ||
Like a wall of sand, built up and plastered with great care, which does not last even a few days,
ਤੈਸੇ ਹੀ ਇਹ ਸੁਖ ਮਾਇਆ ਕੇ ਉਰਝਿਓ ਕਹਾ ਗਵਾਰ ॥੧॥
thaisae hee eih sukh maaeiaa kae ourajhiou kehaa gavaar ||1||
just so are the pleasures of Maya. Why are you entangled in them, you ignorant fool? ||1||

The soul has also to be fed by making it in contact with the Lord through various methods. This pleasure is not temporary. If practiced for a long period of time one can attain the state of bliss. Thus following this route one becomes contended and mind tends to become stable. Once the fickle mindedness is gone one can practice the formula of treating pain and pleasure alike and remain in self. Mind’s wandering can also be arrested. Thus the superiority of the spiritual life vis a vis materialistic way of life, where the soul gets its feed through simran, meditation or practicing Bani, has been accepted as the basic principle of life in Sikhism.

I sum up this with a very beautiful shabad of Ninth Nanak

Forgive me but I have edited with a font adjustment

ਸੋਰਠਿ ਮਹਲਾ ੯ ॥
sorath mehalaa 9 ||
Sorat'h, Ninth Mehl:

ਜੋ ਨਰੁ ਦੁਖ ਮੈ ਦੁਖੁ ਨਹੀ ਮਾਨੈ ॥
jo nar dhukh mai dhukh nehee maanai ||
That man, who in the midst of pain, does not feel pain,


ਸੁਖ ਸਨੇਹੁ ਅਰੁ ਭੈ ਨਹੀ ਜਾ ਕੈ ਕੰਚਨ ਮਾਟੀ ਮਾਨੈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
sukh sanaehu ar bhai nehee jaa kai kanchan maattee maanai ||1|| rehaao ||
who is not affected by pleasure, affection or fear, and who looks alike upon gold and dust;||1||Pause||


ਨਹ ਨਿੰਦਿਆ ਨਹ ਉਸਤਤਿ ਜਾ ਕੈ ਲੋਭੁ ਮੋਹੁ ਅਭਿਮਾਨਾ ॥
neh nindhiaa neh ousathath jaa kai lobh mohu abhimaanaa ||
Who is not swayed by either slander or praise, nor affected by greed, attachment or pride;


ਹਰਖ ਸੋਗ ਤੇ ਰਹੈ ਨਿਆਰਉ ਨਾਹਿ ਮਾਨ ਅਪਮਾਨਾ ॥੧॥
harakh sog thae rehai niaaro naahi maan apamaanaa ||1||
who remains unaffected by joy and sorrow, honor and dishonor;||1||


ਆਸਾ ਮਨਸਾ ਸਗਲ ਤਿਆਗੈ ਜਗ ਤੇ ਰਹੈ ਨਿਰਾਸਾ ॥
aasaa manasaa sagal thiaagai jag thae rehai niraasaa ||
who renounces all hopes and desires and remains desireless in the world;


ਕਾਮੁ ਕ੍ਰੋਧੁ ਜਿਹ ਪਰਸੈ ਨਾਹਨਿ ਤਿਹ ਘਟਿ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਨਿਵਾਸਾ ॥੨॥
kaam krodhh jih parasai naahan thih ghatt breham nivaasaa ||2||
who is not touched by sexual desire or anger - within his heart, God dwells. ||2||

ਗੁਰ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਜਿਹ ਨਰ ਕਉ ਕੀਨੀ ਤਿਹ ਇਹ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਪਛਾਨੀ ॥
gur kirapaa jih nar ko keenee thih eih jugath pashhaanee ||
That man, blessed by Guru's Grace, understands this way.

ਨਾਨਕ ਲੀਨ ਭਇਓ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਸਿਉ ਜਿਉ ਪਾਨੀ ਸੰਗਿ ਪਾਨੀ ॥੩॥੧੧॥
naanak leen bhaeiou gobindh sio jio paanee sang paanee ||3||11||
O Nanak, he merges with the Lord of the Universe, like water with water. ||3||11||
(Ang 633)

Answer.3

After answering the first two questions there remains no need for answering the third question as the answer is contained in the second answer.

However, for the sake of completeness I shall touch upon the subject as per my little understanding of the things. The aim of life or the objective of life has been summed up beautifully in the single line:

Bhai Prapat Manukh Dehoria
Gobind Milan Ki eh Teri baria


The more I grow the more I feel that it is so.
For this we have to remember the Almighty and practice Naam/keeratn in sangat etc.

If one falls sick and is in pain or is in misery one tends to remember God which is generally forgotten when we are happy. Hence sickness is a blessing in disguise to remind us that there is someone who has given us all that He has given us and we should remember Him and also fulfill the purpose of coming on the earth that has been stated above. Thus Dukh becomes Daru for the Rog that has evolved on account of ‘sukh’.

Dukh Daru sukh Rog Bhaya.

There is also another line that I remember:

Har Bisrat sda Khuari.

There is another line that speaks almost the same:

ਇਕੁ ਤਿਲੁ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਵੀਸਰੈ ਰੋਗੁ ਵਡਾ ਮਨ ਮਾਹਿ ॥
[Forgetting the Beloved, even for a moment, the mind is afflicted with terrible diseases.]

Thus the pain makes one to return back to the Path and the soul is put back on track to be in touch with the Almighty, the Super-consciousness.


Regards,

I hope Gurmukhi fonts are Ok.
E& OE
Taranjeet Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

Thanks for the responses.

I want to apologise from the off set that I quite did not understand what you mean in them. It is my own inability.

I am not very good at understanding abstract things. For me they are "utopically intangible" if I may use the term especially when things are required in a direct and clear manner, meaning that understanding of Gurbani in simple terms should take precedent so we can use it in our daily lives. This can only happen once it is put into prose in the simplest of forms so anyone can grasp the message and make it his/her own part.

My questions were based on your following statement:

Quote:
As a concluding remark human intervention in the Divine Order is not accepted in Sikh philosophy or for that matter in any philosophy. One has to fight one's battle oneself. God is there to help every one including those who are in misery. May be in their misery lies their good. Who Knows.?
Allow me to elaborate what I was trying to ask. As Divine Order is the Hukam of Ik Ong Kaar, then there can not be any intervention much less acceptance.

When you use the term" As a concluding remark human intervention in the Divine Order is not accepted in Sikh philosophy or for that matter in any philosophy", it gives the inference as if someone has tried to intervene in the Hukam of Ik Ong Kaar.

Is that so? If that is the reason, can you share with us who and how is it possible to intervene in the Hukam?

Now, let's try to see the other side of the coin a bit.

We now know that the Dinosaurs and many species were destroyed by the asteroid, which we can call Hukam.

Mystery solved! Giant asteroid killed the dinosaurs, say scientists

Today, if the same thing takes place, we will come to know many many years in advance and we will find the way to destroy the asteroid before it destroys us.

Is this intervening in the Hukam in your opinion?

If we do not do anything knowingly and are very aware that this will destroy us, can we consider doing nothing to avoid this a Hukam as well?

The same can be said for the diseases, miseries and other calamities that can be foreseen.

Secondly,you have also posted many verses from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only Guru, to prove/express/elaborate your points in responses to my questions.

I would like to request one thing so this interesting interaction can be a wonderful learning experience for all of us who visit and contribute to this forum.

Please elaborate one Shabad at a time in your own words ( even if you copy and paste the literal translation from the net) and share with us how this message affects you as a person and is related to your response, especially keeping the RAHAO- the central idea in mind.

You may do one Shabad for each post as for a Sikh learning is a life long experience. This will allow others to pitch in with their own understanding of the same.

This will solve the problem of being from the abstract to something concrete that one can use as tools in one's own life.

What do you think?

Regards

Tejwant Singh

Last edited by Narayanjot Kaur; 24-Mar-2010 at 07:18 AM. Reason: Gurmukhi fonts not visible.
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old 24-Mar-2010, 14:13 PM
Astroboy's Avatar Astroboy Astroboy is offline
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Re: Did God create an imperfect world?

Quote:
Now, let's try to see the other side of the coin a bit.

We now know that the Dinosaurs and many species were destroyed by the asteroid, which we can call it Hukam.

Mystery solved! Giant asteroid killed the dinosaurs, say scientists

Today, if the same thing takes place, we will come to know many many years in advance and we will find the way to destroy the asteroid before it destroys us.

Is this intervening in the Hukam in your opinion?

If we do not do anything knowingly and are very aware that this will destroy us, can we consider doing nothing to avoid this a Hukam as well?

The same can be said for the diseases, miseries and other calamities that can be foreseen.
Baba Fareed ji says,

ਬੁਢਾ ਹੋਆ ਸੇਖ ਫਰੀਦੁ ਕੰਬਣਿ ਲਗੀ ਦੇਹ
बुढा होआ सेख फरीदु क्मबणि लगी देह ॥
Budẖā ho▫ā Sekẖ Farīḏ kambaṇ lagī ḏeh.
Shaykh Fareed has grown old, and his body has begun to tremble.

ਜੇ ਸਉ ਵਰ੍ਹ੍ਹਿਆ ਜੀਵਣਾ ਭੀ ਤਨੁ ਹੋਸੀ ਖੇਹ ॥੪੧॥
जे सउ वर्हिआ जीवणा भी तनु होसी खेह ॥४१॥
Je sa▫o varėh▫ā jīvṇā bẖī ṯan hosī kẖeh. ||41||
Even if he could live for hundreds of years, his body will eventually turn to dust. ||41||
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old 24-Mar-2010, 17:22 PM
Taranjeet singh's Avatar Taranjeet singh Taranjeet singh is offline
 
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Re: Did God create an imperfect world?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tejwant Singh View Post
Taranjeet Singh ji,

My questions were based on your following statement:

When you use the term" As a concluding remark human intervention in the Divine Order is not accepted in Sikh philosophy or for that matter in any philosophy", it gives the inference as if someone has tried to intervene in the Hukam of Ik Ong Kaar.

Regards

Tejwant Singh
Respected Tejwant singh ji,

I am grateful to you for such a lovely post that one rarely gets to see.You have very lucidly explained as to how the things should be presented.I have noted it for compliance.

I again thank you for advising me that instead Full shabad should be posted along with the meaning. It will be complied with.

Coming back to the statement, it will not out of place to mention as to why the statement was made.In his post/ thread Jasbeer ji had stated that there is lot of misery and trouble in the world and probably it is not the perfect creation.

The idea of making the bold statement as above was that:

  • There is pain and misery in the world.
  • It is on account of Divine Order.
  • We cannot change it as we have no power.
  • In nut shell We are helpless as the Hukum cannot be changed or intervened or influenced in any manner by the human beings.

However, after going through your post I think yes, the expression employed by me was ambiguous.You have very rightly observed that the sentence leads to some meaning that may have no relevance to the context.I should have used some other word in place of intervention.

But I am envious of you for the clarity that you bring in your writing.

I am sincerely grateful for pointing out the unintended mistake that crept in. It is a case of usage or 'onion' in place of 'garlic' and you would be gracious enough to forgive me.

Best of Regards
Taranjeet

P.s You may not address me with 'ji'. I am not worthy of it. I am happy if you address me as 'Taran' that is my nick name.
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Old 24-Mar-2010, 18:20 PM
rajneesh madhok's Avatar rajneesh madhok rajneesh madhok is offline
 
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Re: Did God create an imperfect world?

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“This world is full of pain, misery and sickness. God, being omni potent could easily created a perfect world”
Dear brothers/ Sisters,
We come to the point. The pain, misery and sickness. Every body has a different definition of these three words.
Misery: First of all I come to the history when Bhai Mati Dasji was offered earthly boons to agree to the points of Aurangzeb. But Bhaiji had no attraction of his offerings. When one has no attraction and temptation then the miseries have no significance in his/her life.
Pain: When Bhai Mati Dass saw two cruel butchers ready to cut him alive in to two haves. His steadfast faith in the almighty was so great that the pains, Gold and dust were equal to him. He has not bothered about the pleasure which he can have or pain which he will have to face. He did not even care to look towards his family members at the time of his execution.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=29599
Sickness: Bhai Mati Das adorned the crown of martyrdom. Why? Because he was permanenty entrenched in the Lotus feet of his beloved Satguru, Sri Guru Tegh Bahadur Sahibji. Points to be considered:
  • He drank the cup of sorrow, misery, pain, brutal torture and affliction as delightfully as if it was Nectar.
  • His face radiated like a sun even when being brutally tortured and cut. Aurangzeb severed his body in two but could not saw and cut his Love to the almighty.
  • Kindly go through Sri Guru Granth Sahibji (534) ----
“Raj Na Chahau Mukat Na Chahau
Man Preet Charan kamalaray”
“I crave not for kingdom or Mukti (Salvation), My soul thirsts for the love Your Lotus feet.
  • We come to another example of Sri Guru Arjan Dev Sahib. He sat on the bruning hot griddle under the Cruel Shower of burning hot sand. The same scstasy was manifest on the Holy face of Sri Guru Tegh Bahadur Sahib when the most cruel death was handed out to him by the most DOGMATIC EMPEROR of the time.

Conclusion:
The Divine lover who is immersed in Guru’s love, in Guru Consciousness, loses body –consciousness and hence feels no pain or torture being inflicated on him. In true love of the Gur, the perfect state of Guru consciousness affords requistie insulation of the soul from body consciousness.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=29599

So dear Jasbir Singh Kalekaji, The person who has immersed in Almighty’s love has no reflection of pain and torture misery and sickness.

Rajneesh Madhok
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