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Guru Granth Sahib
Composition, Arrangement & Layout
ਜਪੁ | Jup
ਸੋ ਦਰੁ | So Dar
ਸੋਹਿਲਾ | Sohilaa
ਰਾਗੁ ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ | Raag Siree-Raag
Gurbani (14-53)
Ashtpadiyan (53-71)
Gurbani (71-74)
Pahre (74-78)
Chhant (78-81)
Vanjara (81-82)
Vaar Siri Raag (83-91)
Bhagat Bani (91-93)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਾਝ | Raag Maajh
Gurbani (94-109)
Ashtpadi (109)
Ashtpadiyan (110-129)
Ashtpadi (129-130)
Ashtpadiyan (130-133)
Bara Maha (133-136)
Din Raen (136-137)
Vaar Maajh Ki (137-150)
ਰਾਗੁ ਗਉੜੀ | Raag Gauree
Gurbani (151-185)
Quartets/Couplets (185-220)
Ashtpadiyan (220-234)
Karhalei (234-235)
Ashtpadiyan (235-242)
Chhant (242-249)
Baavan Akhari (250-262)
Sukhmani (262-296)
Thittee (296-300)
Gauree kii Vaar (300-323)
Gurbani (323-330)
Ashtpadiyan (330-340)
Baavan Akhari (340-343)
Thintteen (343-344)
Vaar Kabir (344-345)
Bhagat Bani (345-346)
ਰਾਗੁ ਆਸਾ | Raag Aasaa
Gurbani (347-348)
Chaupaday (348-364)
Panchpadde (364-365)
Kaafee (365-409)
Aasaavaree (409-411)
Ashtpadiyan (411-432)
Patee (432-435)
Chhant (435-462)
Vaar Aasaa (462-475)
Bhagat Bani (475-488)
ਰਾਗੁ ਗੂਜਰੀ | Raag Goojaree
Gurbani (489-503)
Ashtpadiyan (503-508)
Vaar Gujari (508-517)
Vaar Gujari (517-526)
ਰਾਗੁ ਦੇਵਗੰਧਾਰੀ | Raag Dayv-Gandhaaree
Gurbani (527-536)
ਰਾਗੁ ਬਿਹਾਗੜਾ | Raag Bihaagraa
Gurbani (537-556)
Chhant (538-548)
Vaar Bihaagraa (548-556)
ਰਾਗੁ ਵਡਹੰਸ | Raag Wadhans
Gurbani (557-564)
Ashtpadiyan (564-565)
Chhant (565-575)
Ghoriaan (575-578)
Alaahaniiaa (578-582)
Vaar Wadhans (582-594)
ਰਾਗੁ ਸੋਰਠਿ | Raag Sorath
Gurbani (595-634)
Asatpadhiya (634-642)
Vaar Sorath (642-659)
ਰਾਗੁ ਧਨਾਸਰੀ | Raag Dhanasaree
Gurbani (660-685)
Astpadhiya (685-687)
Chhant (687-691)
Bhagat Bani (691-695)
ਰਾਗੁ ਜੈਤਸਰੀ | Raag Jaitsree
Gurbani (696-703)
Chhant (703-705)
Vaar Jaitsaree (705-710)
Bhagat Bani (710)
ਰਾਗੁ ਟੋਡੀ | Raag Todee
ਰਾਗੁ ਬੈਰਾੜੀ | Raag Bairaaree
ਰਾਗੁ ਤਿਲੰਗ | Raag Tilang
Gurbani (721-727)
Bhagat Bani (727)
ਰਾਗੁ ਸੂਹੀ | Raag Suhi
Gurbani (728-750)
Ashtpadiyan (750-761)
Kaafee (761-762)
Suchajee (762)
Gunvantee (763)
Chhant (763-785)
Vaar Soohee (785-792)
Bhagat Bani (792-794)
ਰਾਗੁ ਬਿਲਾਵਲੁ | Raag Bilaaval
Gurbani (795-831)
Ashtpadiyan (831-838)
Thitteen (838-840)
Vaar Sat (841-843)
Chhant (843-848)
Vaar Bilaaval (849-855)
Bhagat Bani (855-858)
ਰਾਗੁ ਗੋਂਡ | Raag Gond
Gurbani (859-869)
Ashtpadiyan (869)
Bhagat Bani (870-875)
ਰਾਗੁ ਰਾਮਕਲੀ | Raag Ramkalee
Ashtpadiyan (902-916)
Gurbani (876-902)
Anand (917-922)
Sadd (923-924)
Chhant (924-929)
Dakhnee (929-938)
Sidh Gosat (938-946)
Vaar Ramkalee (947-968)
ਰਾਗੁ ਨਟ ਨਾਰਾਇਨ | Raag Nat Narayan
Gurbani (975-980)
Ashtpadiyan (980-983)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਾਲੀ ਗਉੜਾ | Raag Maalee Gauraa
Gurbani (984-988)
Bhagat Bani (988)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਾਰੂ | Raag Maaroo
Gurbani (889-1008)
Ashtpadiyan (1008-1014)
Kaafee (1014-1016)
Ashtpadiyan (1016-1019)
Anjulian (1019-1020)
Solhe (1020-1033)
Dakhni (1033-1043)
ਰਾਗੁ ਤੁਖਾਰੀ | Raag Tukhaari
Bara Maha (1107-1110)
Chhant (1110-1117)
ਰਾਗੁ ਕੇਦਾਰਾ | Raag Kedara
Gurbani (1118-1123)
Bhagat Bani (1123-1124)
ਰਾਗੁ ਭੈਰਉ | Raag Bhairo
Gurbani (1125-1152)
Partaal (1153)
Ashtpadiyan (1153-1167)
ਰਾਗੁ ਬਸੰਤੁ | Raag Basant
Gurbani (1168-1187)
Ashtpadiyan (1187-1193)
Vaar Basant (1193-1196)
ਰਾਗੁ ਸਾਰਗ | Raag Saarag
Gurbani (1197-1200)
Partaal (1200-1231)
Ashtpadiyan (1232-1236)
Chhant (1236-1237)
Vaar Saarang (1237-1253)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਲਾਰ | Raag Malaar
Gurbani (1254-1293)
Partaal (1265-1273)
Ashtpadiyan (1273-1278)
Chhant (1278)
Vaar Malaar (1278-91)
Bhagat Bani (1292-93)
ਰਾਗੁ ਕਾਨੜਾ | Raag Kaanraa
Gurbani (1294-96)
Partaal (1296-1318)
Ashtpadiyan (1308-1312)
Chhant (1312)
Vaar Kaanraa
Bhagat Bani (1318)
ਰਾਗੁ ਕਲਿਆਨ | Raag Kalyaan
Gurbani (1319-23)
Ashtpadiyan (1323-26)
ਰਾਗੁ ਪ੍ਰਭਾਤੀ | Raag Prabhaatee
Gurbani (1327-1341)
Ashtpadiyan (1342-51)
ਰਾਗੁ ਜੈਜਾਵੰਤੀ | Raag Jaijaiwanti
Gurbani (1352-53)
Salok | Gatha | Phunahe | Chaubole | Swayiye
Sehskritee Mahala 1
Sehskritee Mahala 5
Gaathaa Mahala 5
Phunhay Mahala 5
Chaubolae Mahala 5
Shaloks Bhagat Kabir
Shaloks Sheikh Farid
Swaiyyae Mahala 5
Swaiyyae in Praise of Gurus
Shaloks in Addition To Vaars
Shalok Ninth Mehl
Mundavanee Mehl 5
ਰਾਗ ਮਾਲਾ, Raag Maalaa
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<blockquote data-quote="pk70" data-source="post: 78045" data-attributes="member: 5889"><p><strong>Re: Sikh Names</strong></p><p></p><p>"You're claiming <em>conversion</em> started from Guru Nanak Dev Ji by His <em>enlightening</em> people. Yet Guru Nanak Dev Ji, as a Guru, within an Indic tradition of Guru-chela relationships and a Master Jogi was giving <u>Charan Pahul</u>, which is deeksha. Khande Ki Pahul is still deeksha," </p><p> Harjas Kaur Khalsa Ji, </p><p> <strong>Respectfully I have to say that , after reading all this, I smell hijacking of a religion that perceived for general people just contrary to Hinduism which was filled with these kind of ideologies. Simple minded masses fail to understand the mysterious pyramid of words armed with confusing principles. Besides they have financial goal attached to it where as Guru Nanak, went to them and logically proved all ritualism and talks about God were designed to gain financial and politically gains. Guru ji let them be free from all this and pay attention to good deeds and create unconditional love for the Creator. People embraced that new way of religion. Conversion was automatic in huge number; the proof of it was that many Hindus started feeling threat from it. History supports that. There is no proof he started charan pahul because it would sound another ritual. I wouldn’t buy that. Respect for the Guru was built through the teaching because without respect learning doesn’t take place. Waheguru mantra was not mentioned in Guru Granth Sahib, it is used only in context of Guru’s praise; however, as “Guru” word is also used for God, Waha was used as prefix to it making another Name for the Almighty. It sounds more beautiful to me than many prevailed names of the Almighty.</strong></p><p><strong></strong></p><p><strong></strong>Why did Guru take 11 forms? Guru is Perfect Wisdom. Why did Guru change the initiation from Charan Pahul to Khande Ki Pahul? Why did the One Guru write Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and also Dasam Granth Bani Ji? </p><p> <strong>To enlighten people, over time.</strong></p><p> Why did Guru establish Gurgaddhi with Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji alone</p><p> <strong> Guru Granth Sahib Ji was prepared for future enlightenment and Tenth Master gave Gurgaddi to Guru Granth Sahib to stop an avalanche of intellectual influence of anti Sikhs. Guru Nanak had one jot and was passed on <u>to one only.</u></strong></p><p> . When someone implies Guru is an ordinary human being who makes mistakes, or has to be <em>made aware</em>, it implies Guruji is not aware.</p><p> <strong>None of my statements in this post implied Guru ji as an ordinary man.</strong></p><p> <strong></strong></p><p> <strong></strong></p><p> <strong><em>If</em></strong><em> Guru is united to Timeless Lord</em></p><p><em><strong>and</strong> Timeless Lord is outside the limits of time and space</em></p><p><em><strong>Then</strong> Guruji's consciousness is outside the limits of time and space. This means Guruji is all-knowing because He is merged in Timeless Lord.</em></p><p> <strong><em> Bhain Ji nor that wast questioned ever and neither it was an issue, kindly don’t drag the point to one issue to other one..</em></strong></p><p> Because Guru has surpassed even the Maya. Guru is our boat to sail across the ocean of delusion. So there is no question, we cannot read the history relating to Guru as we would an ordinary human being. We cannot assume Guru was clueless and decided since Mughals were waging war that now (and for this time in history only) he must create an Army. Guru created the Khalsa which is sant-sipahi for the Kalyug. That was His entire mission in the 11 forms.</p><p> <strong>Untill fifth Nanak, there was no direct physical attack from any one, so no army was set up, actually history supports even Mugal Govt respected Guru Nanak Panth. In “Khurasan Khasmana kia, where most scholars incorrectly say Guru ji is registering displeasure over Babar attack to GOD , Guru ji hints about self protection. I shall elaborate this when I have enough time. Was Guru clueless? Who said that? </strong></p><p> You said Guru Nanak Dev Ji started <em>enlightening</em> people. By what process did this occur? Enlightenment which comes from the Guru's Shabad-Jyot<em> does not</em> get imparted to a chela by reading. The obscurations of consciousness must be removed for the 9 gates to open. The vital prana can't ascend and pierce the chakras to unlock the tenth gate unless the Shabad-Jyot in the Naam Gurmanatara is vibrating in every hair and within. Thus a metaphysical process must be initiated for this to occur. The initiation is Naam Drirh, and the practice is Sass Giras Simran of pranayam Naam abiyaas.</p><p> <strong>Before Guru ji , all were Hindus and Muslims, when people stated believing in only Guru ji’s message, they became Sikhs(neither Hindu nor Muslim), isn’t it conversion? Please don’t use dogmatic rules to become a Sikh; it was not used by any Guru ji. Even Guru Gobind Singh didn’t force his own dear Sikhs to have it, if imaginary tales are cooked, what I can do, history says otherwise. </strong></p><p> <strong></strong></p><p> <strong></strong></p><p> <span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਉਲਟਤ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਪਵਨ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਚਕ੍ਰ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਖਟੁ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਭੇਦੇ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਸੁਰਤਿ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਸੁੰਨ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਅਨਰਾਗੀ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Mangal'">॥</span></span><span style="color: blue"> </span></p><p><span style="color: blue">oulattath pavan chakr khatt bhaedhae surath sunn anaraagee ||</span></p><p><span style="color: blue">I turned my breath inwards, and pierced through the six chakras of the body, and my awareness was centered on the Primal Void of the Absolute Lord.</span></p><p><span style="color: blue"></span></p><p><span style="color: blue"></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਆਵੈ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਨ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਜਾਇ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਮਰੈ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਨ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਜੀਵੈ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਤਾਸੁ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਖੋਜੁ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਬੈਰਾਗੀ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Mangal'">॥</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">੧॥</span></span><span style="color: blue"> </span></p><p><span style="color: blue">aavai n jaae marai n jeevai thaas khoj bairaagee ||1||</span></p><p><span style="color: blue">Search for the One who does not come or go, who does not die and is not born, O renunciate. ||1||</span></p><p><span style="color: blue"></span></p><p><span style="color: blue"></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਮੇਰੇ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਮਨ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਮਨ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਹੀ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਉਲਟਿ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਸਮਾਨਾ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Mangal'">॥</span></span><span style="color: blue"> </span></p><p><span style="color: blue">maerae man man hee oulatt samaanaa ||</span></p><p><span style="color: blue">My mind has turned away from the world, and is absorbed in the Mind of God.</span></p><p><span style="color: blue"></span></p><p><span style="color: blue"></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਗੁਰ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਪਰਸਾਦਿ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਅਕਲਿ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਭਈ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਅਵਰੈ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਨਾਤਰੁ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਥਾ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਬੇਗਾਨਾ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Mangal'">॥</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">੧॥</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਰਹਾਉ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Mangal'">॥</span></span><span style="color: blue"> </span></p><p><span style="color: blue">gur parasaadh akal bhee avarai naathar thhaa baegaanaa ||1|| rehaao ||</span></p><p><span style="color: blue">By Guru's Grace, my understanding has been changed; otherwise, I was totally ignorant. ||1||Pause||</span></p><p><span style="color: blue">~SGGS Ji p. 333</span></p><p> </p><p></p><p><strong>Again, above shabad doesn’t support your ideology. Here personal experience of realization of God and importance of Guru to walk on that path, are expressed.</strong></p><p> <strong>Fifth</strong></p><p></p><p>To obtain enlightenment from the Guru requires receptivity which comes through practice of attunement, which comes through japping the word-Mantara which is an energy vibration to cleanse the mental consciousness and spiritual blockages. The word-seed which contains the Shabad-Jyot of Guru has the sound vibration like <em>Spho Ta</em> sound current Of Guru's Shabad which has the shakti to pierce through the chakras and open the gates.</p><p> <strong>If above magical idea is accepted as base to become Sikh, Sikhs can be counted on fingers. It is an attempt to make Sikhism more difficult than any other religion.</strong></p><p> <span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਮੇਰੇ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਮੀਤ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਗੁਰਦੇਵ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਮੋ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਕਉ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਰਾਮ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਨਾਮੁ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਪਰਗਾਸਿ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Mangal'">॥</span></span><span style="color: blue"> </span></p><p><span style="color: blue">maerae meeth guradhaev mo ko raam naam paragaas ||</span></p><p><span style="color: blue">O my Best Friend, O Divine Guru, please enlighten me with the Name of the Lord. </span></p><p><span style="color: blue"></span></p><p><span style="color: blue"></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਗੁਰਮਤਿ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਨਾਮੁ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਮੇਰਾ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਪ੍ਰਾਨ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਸਖਾਈ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਹਰਿ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਕੀਰਤਿ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਹਮਰੀ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਰਹਰਾਸਿ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Mangal'">॥</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">੧॥</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਰਹਾਉ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Mangal'">॥</span></span><span style="color: blue"> </span></p><p><span style="color: blue">guramath naam maeraa praan sakhaaee har keerath hamaree reharaas ||1|| rehaao ||</span></p><p><span style="color: blue">Through the Guru's Teachings, the Naam is my breath of life. The Kirtan of the Lord's Praise is my life's occupation. ||1||Pause||</span></p><p><span style="color: blue">~SGGS Ji p. 10</span></p><p> <strong>Again, there is no support of your ideology in the above Guru Vaak either.</strong></p><p> </p><p> </p><p> <strong>Sixth</strong></p><p></p><p>You seem to be talking about history and politics. What has this to do with creating a Singh or a Singhni? If all 11 forms of Guru are one Jyot, why are you implying that one did one thing, and another did another thing? <em>The One</em> acted according to Perfect Wisdom and Perfect Design. Amrit is not some historical aberration. Rehit is not some political need for discipline of troops. It is the same Guru. It is the same Gurumantara. It is the same requirement of sadhan spiritual discipline which is Hukam of Gurui. The spiritual discipline of the Guru's Khalsa is the<em> Sikh dharam</em> which is the conceptual counterpart of <em>Karam</em>. There can be no Karam without Dharam, it is a relational concept. Dharam is the sadhan prescription for cleansing the Karam. That is hukam of Guru.</p><p> <strong>Fist of all, Kindly keep politics thing out of this, all above references are about how circumstances forced to have need of special amrit ceremony. Ikk Jot doesn’t become two if in a different circumstances, different things are done. In worldly affairs, they were known as grand father and grand son. What is wrong with? . As I am aware of your approach, you don’t like hair splitting, but here you doing the same thing. Here you are also saying all who lived before Khalsa, couldn’t do dharm?</strong></p><p> Quote:</p><p> <em><span style="color: darkred">Now did Tenth Master make amrit ceremony mandatory? We have no historical factual support on that. Is it important for a Sikh to have it? Answer is big” YES” Important but not mandatory, that is why Ghanaeea and Bhai Nand Lal ji who enjoyed the honor of being present with our Glorious Guru, remained dear Sikhs to Guru ji and were never asked( If they were asked, they would) to have it. History supports that fact.</span></em> </p><p> <strong>Seventh</strong></p><p></p><p>Deeksha is never mandatory. It is free choice. This human body has been given to you. This is your chance to meet God. Until you adopt the Guru as your Master and receive from Guru the seed-Shabad to initiate activation of your spiritual centers, you cannot obtain enlightenment. This is ancient Indic wisdom. You mention the words,<em> "historical facts."</em> Yet you provide no source or history, only your own assertion. Please investigate the history of<em> Guru-chela relationship</em> which is ancient Indic tradition. </p><p></p><p>Your historical facts need a little updating:</p><p> <strong>If that is essential, why don’t you do updating? What you are talking about Harjas Kaur Khalsa Ji about a chance of meeting God? Guru ji has made it clear that HIS grace is only in HIS hands. In this context, more stress is needed to clean within than amrit ceremony. At one point you want me to investigate history of Guru chela relationship, when I quoted historical facts, you accuse me of politics, which way I can debate with you? You are also giving stress on Guru chela history, what about Nand Lal and Ghaneeaa Ji who never took amrit, what is the status of Guru Chela in their context? The quote you give about Nand Lal is not a historical fact.</strong></p><p> <strong><em>Quote:</em></strong></p><p> <span style="color: navy">Before meeting Guru Gobind Singh Ji, Bhai Sahib was known as Naib Subedar of </span><span style="color: navy">Multan</span><span style="color: navy">, and also as Mir Munshi of Aurangzeb's heir to the throne, Bhadur Shah.. To Sikhs he has been popularly known as Bhai Nand Lal Ji (Goya). Born in 1633 at Ghazni, Bhai Sahib became a great Persian poet and was strongly influenced by Rumi and Hafiz, whom he frequently quotes. In 1682, after his journey from </span><span style="color: navy">Multan</span><span style="color: navy"> to </span><span style="color: navy">Amritsar</span><span style="color: navy">, he stopped over in Anandpur Sahib to have the Blessed Darshan of Guru Gobind Singh Ji. . He immediately received "Gurdikhya" (Charn-Amrit), and became one of Guru Sahib's most devoted disciples and a Poet Laureate of His Darbar. In 1699, Bhai Sahib along with thousands of others took Khanday-Ki-Pahul (Baptism of the Double-Edged Sword), which had replaced the Charan-Amrit Ceremony. From then on he was known as Bhai Nand Singh Ji. </span></p><p><span style="color: navy"> <a href="http://www.sikhsangat.com/lofiversion/index.php/t10765.html" target="_blank">The Voice of Sikh Youth > Is Khande Di Pahul and Amrit the same thing?</a></span> </p><p> <strong>Above quote has no historical bearing, he was never known as Nand Lal Singh. He is only known as Bhai Nand Lal ji, or Nand Lal Goaa, be aware, “Lal” is also a last name, if you don’t know.. I am hoping, very soon, Ghaneea ji will be known as Ghaneea Singh just to justify false assertions. While reading Historical sources, one is appalled to know how big heart of Guru Gobind Singh ji confused some at that time, this dogmatic approach is no where to close to represent him.</strong></p><p><strong></strong></p><p><strong>Eighth</strong></p><p></p><p>The first proof is Bhai Nand Lal Ji is recognized by the Panth as a<em> brahmgiani.</em> It is <u>impossible</u> for him to have achieved this stage of spiritual development <u>without</u> the Guru. In order for this process to be <em>activated</em> it is required that the chela have his energy centers opened, his gates unlocked by the Naam Gurmantara and the deeksha of receiving the shabad-Jyot of the Guru. Can you please provide me proof where Bhai Nan Lal Ji and Bhai Kannaya Ji<strong><em> did not have</em></strong> <u>amrit deeksha</u> other than your opinion or other people say? This is a non-fact. </p><p> <strong>What is the Sikh fact, give it with factual support please.</strong></p><p><strong></strong></p><p><strong></strong>Whether the Panth has available a written record of every person who ever received amrit from Satguru is not even feasible. How could brahmgiani and sant become brahmgiani and sant without the initiation of a process which is capable of <em>transforming </em>them into brahmgianai and sant? They did not make themselves brahmgyani and sant. They needed a Satguru and chela discipleship for this to ever have taken place. The evidence that they had opened the dasam duar and become brahmgyani and sant is the proof! But to say they did not have amrit is to say that we can liberate ourselves without a Guru or commitment to Guruji's hukam. And that is impossible. We cannot enlighten ourselves by our own efforts. </p><p> <strong>We have in record names of Sikhs with Singh as last name,who were not as well known as Bhai Ghaneeaa and Bhai Nand lal ji, why Singh is missing from their name only?</strong></p><p> <strong></strong></p><p> <strong></strong></p><p> <em>Quote:</em></p><p> <span style="color: darkred">Khalsa was designed to protect the weaker, to stand against tyranny. There are millions who bow to walk on panth of Guru Nanak Gobind Singh even without taking ceremony, I applaud them. I have met many Sikhs whose personal life inspired me to grow spiritually and they are SEHAJDHARI SIKHS. Coming back to conversion, we Sikhs are different in thinking as guided by Gurbani than Hindus or Muslims who think , people coming from other faiths are impure, we welcome them as pure as we think we are. I took amrit, I would not tell a lie. Did it help me to grow into a better Sikh, my honest answer is “no” because my savior is Gurbani. Did amrit ceremony make me feel better emotionally, answer is yes.</span> </p><p> </p><p></p><p><strong>Ninth</strong></p><p></p><p>Those who walk the path of Guru Nanak Dev Ji (and all 11 forms are Guru Nanak) without taking amrit are not the Guru's chelas. They are not in allegiance to the Guru's Rehit. They have not received the transmission of the Naam Gurmantara. They have not been implanted with the shabad-jyot to activate and unlock the subtle energy centers and thus open the dasam duar to obtain mukti. So, while I accept they are Sikhs, as believer's, they are without marriage bond of loyalty and commitment to follow the path of Guru Nanak.</p><p> <strong>Loyalty comes with heart not with rituals or attire. You can declare that decree but it cannot stop them to be better Sikhs. And there are many who after taking amrit are still in quagmire of hypocrisy , forgive me I have to say this.</strong></p><p><strong></strong></p><p>They are no different from any other human being. While someone of another faith may be good, and holy, and inspiring and heroic,<strong> it is not our personal qualities which give us mukti. </strong>Gurbani is very clear on that. It is not we who activate this process by our own efforts. <strong>No matter how inspirational any human being is, only Guruji is the deliverer in the Kalyug. </strong>And the path to liberation is the Naam which is received from Guru in the Guru Panj Piare after commiting to obey Guruji's hukam and live the sadhan prescription of Sikh dharam to counteract the panj dhoots, the duality, the haumai, the obscurations and defilements which result from our karam. This is Guruji's path of salvation. No one can be said to be walking Guruji's path who doesn't walk the path described by Guruji's hukam.</p><p> <strong>So all Sikhs who lived before Guru Gobind Singh ji were not true Sikhs, I think you are mixing Khalsa with Sikhs; A Sikh cannot be khalsa without taking amrit, and a Khalsa can be both Sikh as well as Khalsa, that is the difference. There were and still are SEHAJDHARI SIKHS, wonderful people and they believe only in Ten Guru and Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Contrary to you, I feel, they have the every right to be called Sikhs.</strong></p><p> <strong></strong></p><p> <strong></strong></p><p> <em>Quote:</em></p><p> <span style="color: darkred">Last point: name changing. If Antonio ji has chosen her new faith Sikhism, she has a choice to take amrit ceremony when she feels ready to do that, none of the Sikh maryada rules opposes what I have stated above. I have Maryada with me,( by the way this maryada is being 90 percent violated in </span><span style="color: darkred">Punjab</span><span style="color: darkred"> by the same Sikh category who boasts about it, please visit </span><span style="color: darkred">Punjab</span><span style="color: darkred">, you will see it with your own eyes). So Sikh Maryada has nothing to say in this context either. I also give stress that over times some hypocrites can take over SGPC and Akaal Takhat Power but no one can ever take away from us is our Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Stick to Guru more than any one else. Guru Granth Sahib is asking our attention more than any thing, changing name without amrit ceremony will not harm the soul. </span></p><p> </p><p>If Antonia Ji has chosen her new faith in Sikhism, this is wonderful. But the important question is did Guru choose you? And it is the <strong><em>exchange of promises</em></strong>, as in spiritual marriage, the chela makes a vow and bond to Guru and Guru makes a vow and bond with chela which is the real conversion to Sikhi. And this marriage vow which binds Guru and chela together is not someone's opinion, not someone's kalpa of wishful thinking, which is the actual commitment to Guru!</p><p> <strong>That is your opinion, you are entitled to it. For me, call it wishful thinking or whatever, in realty it doesn’t matter, I doubt, as I took amrit, I can certainly say that Guru has chosen me. Guru demands all undivided attention and love for the Creator not merely ceremony is enough.</strong></p><p><strong></strong></p><p><strong>Tenth</strong></p><p></p><p>Never was there disagreement on her CHOICE to receive Gur-deeksha in amrit sinchaar. <strong>But just naming herself Kaur will not make her the Guru's Kaur. To become the Guru's Kaur she must make a COMMITMENT to Guru and receive amrit.</strong>It was asserted by Namjap Ji that simply wearing panj kakkars, as extensively stated by people, will make a person amritdhari. <strong>While a person can name himself whatever he likes, no one has the power to make oneself the Guru's Singh or Singhni. </strong>Because it is not by our own power that we activate the spiritual process. Only an <em>amritdhari </em>is a Singh or Kaur. Only an amritdhari is a member of the Khalsa.</p><p> <strong>Antonio Ji, actually didn’t pose the question or on this thread, she never felt to discuss all what you are saying, at least, I am not aware of it. It was a simple question. Namjap ji and I suggested her that amrit ceremony was not necessary to change a name, it is still a fact, you couldn’t prove otherwise</strong>.</p><p> </p><p> </p><p> <em>Quote:</em></p><p> <span style="color: darkred">I have Maryada with me,( by the way this maryada is being 90 percent violated in </span><span style="color: darkred">Punjab</span><span style="color: darkred"> by the same Sikh category who boasts about it, please visit </span><span style="color: darkred">Punjab</span><span style="color: darkred">, you will see it with your own eyes). So Sikh Maryada has nothing to say in this context either. I also give stress that over times some hypocrites can take over SGPC and Akaal Takhat Power but no one can ever take away from us is our Guru Granth Sahib Ji.</span> </p><p> </p><p>What transpires in the Punjab has no relevance to the question of whether or not a person needs amrit to become a Singh/Singhni and have Gur-deeksha. You say the Rehit Maryada has nothing to say in this context. And you accuse that hypocrites have taken over the SGPC and Akal Takht thus invalidating the authority of Guruji's sargun saroop in Guru Khalsa Panth to make decisions regarding temporal affairs of Guruji's Sikhs.</p><p> <strong>Harjas Kaur Khalsa Ji, with all due respect, I have to tell you one thing in this context. I was pointing out that in case, SGPC and Akaal Takhat are taken over by hypocrites, would we follow them or Guru Ji? You missed my implied meaning. No one can ever take away our Guru Granth Sahib from us, so sticking to teachings Guru reveals to follow is the only way to survive as a Sikh in that case</strong></p><p> <em>Quote:</em></p><p> <span style="color: navy">Akal Takhat (Punjabi: </span><span style="color: navy"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਅਕਾਲ</span></span><span style="color: navy"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਤਖ਼ਤ</span></span><span style="color: navy">) ... means the Throne of the Immortal and is the highest political institution of the Sikhs.... The Akal Takhat was founded by Guru Hargobind on </span><span style="color: navy">June 15, 1606</span><span style="color: navy"> (now celebrated on 2 July) and was established as the place from which the spiritual and temporal concerns of the Sikh community could be acted upon. </span></p><p><span style="color: navy"> <a href="http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Shri_Akal_Takhat" target="_blank">Shri Akal Takhat - SikhiWiki, free Sikh encyclopedia.</a></span> </p><p> </p><p>One must question, since you are basically saying you don't<em> recognize the authority</em> of Akal Takht or the SGPC Sikh Rehit Maryada in this matter of naming ceremony, clarifying who is Singh/Singhni, or the necessity for amrit. And the only point of debate you offer is accusation that <em>"hypocrites" </em>have taken over the institutions to come between you and Guruji.</p><p> </p><p> <strong>Please reread it carefully, I used word “ CAN TAKE OVER” and you, very quickly since I am in disagreement with you, accuse me of not recognizing the authority of Akaal Takhat; obviously your being real Sikh couldn’t help you accusing some one of something he didn’t!! </strong></p><p><strong></strong></p><p><strong>Twelfth</strong></p><p></p><p>If you don't accept Guru Panth, Guru Panj Piare, sovereignty of Akal Takht Sahib Ji, validity of Rehit Maryada, then acknowledge that openly. Historical sources are meaningless to decide this case. Whose version of history should we accept as authoritative? Nirmala? Udasi? Sanatan Nihang? </p><p> </p><p> <strong>Respectfully I refuse to answer any questione based upon imagination because I accepted Panj Pyara, Akaal takhat.</strong></p><p><strong></strong></p><p>The Guru Khalsa Panth has accepted the Khande Ki Pahul of Guru. And the Guru Khalsa Panth has accepted Rehit Maryada. While not every Jatha accepts every point of every Rehit Maryada, all are agreed that a Khalsa must follow a Rehit Maryada. I follow the Rehit Maryada of the Panj Piare who I received amrit from. The Panj Piare are not "hypocrites" as you allege. This is not possible. Panj Piare are Guruji's own form and what they say is Guruji's hukam. This is not hypocrisy.</p><p> </p><p> <strong>I gave you a hint about in case Akaal Takhat is taken over by hypocrites; however, you have stuck with the word “hypocrite” and are refusing to let it go. Reread before reacting, you are falsely accusing me of calling Panj pyara hypocrites. That does not become of you who took Khande dee Pahul!!!!!!!</strong></p><p> <p style="text-align: right"><p style="text-align: right"><a href="http://digg.com/submit?phase=2&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sikhphilosophy.net%2Fsikh-youth%2F4106-sikh-names-4.html%2378007&title=Sikh+Names" target="_blank">[</a></p> </p><p><<You're claiming conversion started from Guru Nanak Dev Ji by His enlightening people. Yet Guru Nanak Dev Ji, as a Guru, within an Indic tradition of Guru-chela relationships and a Master Jogi was giving Charan Pahul, which is deeksha.>>></p><p> </p><p> i am surprised to read this.</p><p> </p><p> Do you have any proof to back up this statement? </p><p> <strong>Above is a question posed by amarsangheraji, in response to that, Guru Shabad you quoted does not support what you say. . He asked about charan pahul as dikhsha as you pointed out. Thre is no teaching about an exchange it with charan pahul, you can reread it.</strong></p><p> <em><span style="color: navy">Quote:</span></em></p><p> The guru-shishya tradition, lineage, or parampara, is a spiritual relationship in traditional Hinduism where teachings are transmitted from a guru (teacher, <span style="font-family: 'Mangal'">गुरू</span>) to a 'śi<span style="font-family: 'Tahoma'">ṣ</span>ya' (disciple, <span style="font-family: 'Mangal'">शिष्य</span>) or chela. Such knowledge, whether it be vedic, agamic artistic, architectural, musical or spiritual, is imparted through the developing relationship between the guru and the disciple. It is considered that this relationship, based on the genuineness of the guru, and the respect, commitment, devotion and obedience of the student, is the best way for subtle or advanced knowledge to be conveyed. The student eventually masters the knowledge that the guru embodies.</p><p> The word Sikh is derived from the Sanskrit word shishya. It is related to the Brahmacharya.</p><p> <strong>Above your statement still doesn’t answer his question and SGGS 208, 211 , 477, 908, does not support your views of charan pahul dikhsha, it is all about learning from Guru about The Naam, Yoga is a reference to the prevailed way of spiritual liberation and about Guru’s view that unless ego gotten rid of, merely practicing Yoga wont help, real Yoga is to totally be lost in Him. On SGGS 923, it is about Gurgaddi of Guru Ram Das, not a word about charan pahul. Reference from Sidh Gost you have given has absolutely no link with charan pahul. When you pull out a Shabad, read it completely, you can find relevant Guru teachings. In the following Guru Vaak, its about HIS infinity and Guru Ji’s wish/longing to bow unconditionally to one who realized HIM, cutting head off is a horrible translation, its means egoless bowing..</strong></p><p> <strong>And who are these gateway to Sikhism who boast about knowledge of Sikhi but horribly failed to put acceptable translation?</strong></p><p> <em> Charan Dhoe Rehraas Kar </em></p><p><em> Charnamrit Gursikhaan Pilaaayaa (Var 1, Pauri 23 Bhai Gurdas Ji)</em></p><p> </p><p> <strong><em>Its meaning is not that Guru ji brought big bowl of water, cleaned feet and called all Sikhs to drink it. Please, you can do better than that</em></strong></p><p> </p><p> <em><span style="color: darkred">Sahib Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji prescribed specific rules and regulations which must be unconditionally accepted by the candidates before they can be admitted as disciples (Sikhs). The ceremony by which the Panj Pyaras are authorized by the Satguru to admit such persons in the fold of Sikhism is partaking Khande-ki-Pahul or Amrit. Therefore, according to the Commandment of the Satguru, one can become a Sikh of the Guru only by taking Amrit. Such a person is also called an Amritdhari because he has been blessed with the holy Amrit and has, thus, become a Sikh. It is further explicit from the following couplet from Rahitnamaa of Bhai Desa Singh Ji. </span></em></p><p> </p><p> <strong><em><span style="color: darkred">If Guru ji said what all Desa Singh claims, Guru ji would have put in writing, Sikhs say he wrote all Dasm Granth and Sarbh Loh, well why not a few rules and regulations about amrit ceremony were penned down by him <u>in the above context.? Why Desa Singh ji is silent on BhaiGhaneeaa Ji and Bhai Nand Lal jI?</u></span></em></strong></p><p><strong><em><span style="color: darkred"></span></em></strong></p><p><strong><em><span style="color: darkred"></span></em></strong><em><span style="color: navy">P</span><span style="color: darkred"> </span></em></p><p><em><span style="color: darkred"></span></em></p><p><em><span style="color: darkred">Generally, people do not grasp the true meaning of the terms Amritdhari and non-Amritdhari Sikhs. The phrase non-Amritdhari Sikhs is meaningless. One cannot make a comparison between them. </span></em></p><p><em><span style="color: darkred"></span></em></p><p><em><span style="color: darkred">There is only one class of Sikhs and that class is the SIKH (Khalsa). Thus, one is either a Sikh or not a Sikh. </span></em></p><p> </p><p> <strong><em><span style="color: darkred"> Thank God,that decree was not given by Guru Gobind SinghJi but still you have the right to do so; I have difficulty to portrait Guru Gobind Singh ji as a dictator type of spiritual King.</span></em></strong></p><p> <strong><em><span style="color: darkred"></span></em></strong></p><p> <strong><em><span style="color: darkred">[/FONT]</span></em></strong></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pk70, post: 78045, member: 5889"] [b]Re: Sikh Names[/b] "You're claiming [I]conversion[/I] started from Guru Nanak Dev Ji by His [I]enlightening[/I] people. Yet Guru Nanak Dev Ji, as a Guru, within an Indic tradition of Guru-chela relationships and a Master Jogi was giving [U]Charan Pahul[/U], which is deeksha. Khande Ki Pahul is still deeksha," Harjas Kaur Khalsa Ji, [B]Respectfully I have to say that , after reading all this, I smell hijacking of a religion that perceived for general people just contrary to Hinduism which was filled with these kind of ideologies. Simple minded masses fail to understand the mysterious pyramid of words armed with confusing principles. Besides they have financial goal attached to it where as Guru Nanak, went to them and logically proved all ritualism and talks about God were designed to gain financial and politically gains. Guru ji let them be free from all this and pay attention to good deeds and create unconditional love for the Creator. People embraced that new way of religion. Conversion was automatic in huge number; the proof of it was that many Hindus started feeling threat from it. History supports that. There is no proof he started charan pahul because it would sound another ritual. I wouldn’t buy that. Respect for the Guru was built through the teaching because without respect learning doesn’t take place. Waheguru mantra was not mentioned in Guru Granth Sahib, it is used only in context of Guru’s praise; however, as “Guru” word is also used for God, Waha was used as prefix to it making another Name for the Almighty. It sounds more beautiful to me than many prevailed names of the Almighty. [/B]Why did Guru take 11 forms? Guru is Perfect Wisdom. Why did Guru change the initiation from Charan Pahul to Khande Ki Pahul? Why did the One Guru write Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and also Dasam Granth Bani Ji? [B]To enlighten people, over time.[/B] Why did Guru establish Gurgaddhi with Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji alone [B] Guru Granth Sahib Ji was prepared for future enlightenment and Tenth Master gave Gurgaddi to Guru Granth Sahib to stop an avalanche of intellectual influence of anti Sikhs. Guru Nanak had one jot and was passed on [U]to one only.[/U][/B] . When someone implies Guru is an ordinary human being who makes mistakes, or has to be [I]made aware[/I], it implies Guruji is not aware. [B]None of my statements in this post implied Guru ji as an ordinary man. [/B] [B][I]If[/I][/B][I] Guru is united to Timeless Lord [B]and[/B] Timeless Lord is outside the limits of time and space [B]Then[/B] Guruji's consciousness is outside the limits of time and space. This means Guruji is all-knowing because He is merged in Timeless Lord.[/I] [B][I] Bhain Ji nor that wast questioned ever and neither it was an issue, kindly don’t drag the point to one issue to other one..[/I][/B] Because Guru has surpassed even the Maya. Guru is our boat to sail across the ocean of delusion. So there is no question, we cannot read the history relating to Guru as we would an ordinary human being. We cannot assume Guru was clueless and decided since Mughals were waging war that now (and for this time in history only) he must create an Army. Guru created the Khalsa which is sant-sipahi for the Kalyug. That was His entire mission in the 11 forms. [B]Untill fifth Nanak, there was no direct physical attack from any one, so no army was set up, actually history supports even Mugal Govt respected Guru Nanak Panth. In “Khurasan Khasmana kia, where most scholars incorrectly say Guru ji is registering displeasure over Babar attack to GOD , Guru ji hints about self protection. I shall elaborate this when I have enough time. Was Guru clueless? Who said that? [/B] You said Guru Nanak Dev Ji started [I]enlightening[/I] people. By what process did this occur? Enlightenment which comes from the Guru's Shabad-Jyot[I] does not[/I] get imparted to a chela by reading. The obscurations of consciousness must be removed for the 9 gates to open. The vital prana can't ascend and pierce the chakras to unlock the tenth gate unless the Shabad-Jyot in the Naam Gurmanatara is vibrating in every hair and within. Thus a metaphysical process must be initiated for this to occur. The initiation is Naam Drirh, and the practice is Sass Giras Simran of pranayam Naam abiyaas. [B]Before Guru ji , all were Hindus and Muslims, when people stated believing in only Guru ji’s message, they became Sikhs(neither Hindu nor Muslim), isn’t it conversion? Please don’t use dogmatic rules to become a Sikh; it was not used by any Guru ji. Even Guru Gobind Singh didn’t force his own dear Sikhs to have it, if imaginary tales are cooked, what I can do, history says otherwise. [/B] [COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]ਉਲਟਤ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]ਪਵਨ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]ਚਕ੍ਰ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]ਖਟੁ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]ਭੇਦੇ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]ਸੁਰਤਿ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]ਸੁੰਨ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]ਅਨਰਾਗੀ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Mangal]॥[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue] oulattath pavan chakr khatt bhaedhae surath sunn anaraagee || I turned my breath inwards, and pierced through the six chakras of the body, and my awareness was centered on the Primal Void of the Absolute Lord. [/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]ਆਵੈ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]ਨ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]ਜਾਇ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]ਮਰੈ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]ਨ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]ਜੀਵੈ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]ਤਾਸੁ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]ਖੋਜੁ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]ਬੈਰਾਗੀ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Mangal]॥[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]੧॥[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue] aavai n jaae marai n jeevai thaas khoj bairaagee ||1|| Search for the One who does not come or go, who does not die and is not born, O renunciate. ||1|| [/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]ਮੇਰੇ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]ਮਨ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]ਮਨ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]ਹੀ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]ਉਲਟਿ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]ਸਮਾਨਾ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Mangal]॥[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue] maerae man man hee oulatt samaanaa || My mind has turned away from the world, and is absorbed in the Mind of God. [/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]ਗੁਰ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]ਪਰਸਾਦਿ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]ਅਕਲਿ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]ਭਈ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]ਅਵਰੈ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]ਨਾਤਰੁ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]ਥਾ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]ਬੇਗਾਨਾ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Mangal]॥[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]੧॥[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]ਰਹਾਉ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Mangal]॥[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue] gur parasaadh akal bhee avarai naathar thhaa baegaanaa ||1|| rehaao || By Guru's Grace, my understanding has been changed; otherwise, I was totally ignorant. ||1||Pause|| ~SGGS Ji p. 333[/COLOR] [B]Again, above shabad doesn’t support your ideology. Here personal experience of realization of God and importance of Guru to walk on that path, are expressed.[/B] [B]Fifth[/B] To obtain enlightenment from the Guru requires receptivity which comes through practice of attunement, which comes through japping the word-Mantara which is an energy vibration to cleanse the mental consciousness and spiritual blockages. The word-seed which contains the Shabad-Jyot of Guru has the sound vibration like [I]Spho Ta[/I] sound current Of Guru's Shabad which has the shakti to pierce through the chakras and open the gates. [B]If above magical idea is accepted as base to become Sikh, Sikhs can be counted on fingers. It is an attempt to make Sikhism more difficult than any other religion.[/B] [COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]ਮੇਰੇ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]ਮੀਤ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]ਗੁਰਦੇਵ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]ਮੋ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]ਕਉ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]ਰਾਮ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]ਨਾਮੁ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]ਪਰਗਾਸਿ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Mangal]॥[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue] maerae meeth guradhaev mo ko raam naam paragaas || O my Best Friend, O Divine Guru, please enlighten me with the Name of the Lord. [/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]ਗੁਰਮਤਿ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]ਨਾਮੁ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]ਮੇਰਾ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]ਪ੍ਰਾਨ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]ਸਖਾਈ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]ਹਰਿ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]ਕੀਰਤਿ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]ਹਮਰੀ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]ਰਹਰਾਸਿ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Mangal]॥[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]੧॥[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]ਰਹਾਉ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Mangal]॥[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue] guramath naam maeraa praan sakhaaee har keerath hamaree reharaas ||1|| rehaao || Through the Guru's Teachings, the Naam is my breath of life. The Kirtan of the Lord's Praise is my life's occupation. ||1||Pause|| ~SGGS Ji p. 10[/COLOR] [B]Again, there is no support of your ideology in the above Guru Vaak either.[/B] [B]Sixth[/B] You seem to be talking about history and politics. What has this to do with creating a Singh or a Singhni? If all 11 forms of Guru are one Jyot, why are you implying that one did one thing, and another did another thing? [I]The One[/I] acted according to Perfect Wisdom and Perfect Design. Amrit is not some historical aberration. Rehit is not some political need for discipline of troops. It is the same Guru. It is the same Gurumantara. It is the same requirement of sadhan spiritual discipline which is Hukam of Gurui. The spiritual discipline of the Guru's Khalsa is the[I] Sikh dharam[/I] which is the conceptual counterpart of [I]Karam[/I]. There can be no Karam without Dharam, it is a relational concept. Dharam is the sadhan prescription for cleansing the Karam. That is hukam of Guru. [B]Fist of all, Kindly keep politics thing out of this, all above references are about how circumstances forced to have need of special amrit ceremony. Ikk Jot doesn’t become two if in a different circumstances, different things are done. In worldly affairs, they were known as grand father and grand son. What is wrong with? . As I am aware of your approach, you don’t like hair splitting, but here you doing the same thing. Here you are also saying all who lived before Khalsa, couldn’t do dharm?[/B] Quote: [I][COLOR=darkred]Now did Tenth Master make amrit ceremony mandatory? We have no historical factual support on that. Is it important for a Sikh to have it? Answer is big” YES” Important but not mandatory, that is why Ghanaeea and Bhai Nand Lal ji who enjoyed the honor of being present with our Glorious Guru, remained dear Sikhs to Guru ji and were never asked( If they were asked, they would) to have it. History supports that fact.[/COLOR][/I] [B]Seventh[/B] Deeksha is never mandatory. It is free choice. This human body has been given to you. This is your chance to meet God. Until you adopt the Guru as your Master and receive from Guru the seed-Shabad to initiate activation of your spiritual centers, you cannot obtain enlightenment. This is ancient Indic wisdom. You mention the words,[I] "historical facts."[/I] Yet you provide no source or history, only your own assertion. Please investigate the history of[I] Guru-chela relationship[/I] which is ancient Indic tradition. Your historical facts need a little updating: [B]If that is essential, why don’t you do updating? What you are talking about Harjas Kaur Khalsa Ji about a chance of meeting God? Guru ji has made it clear that HIS grace is only in HIS hands. In this context, more stress is needed to clean within than amrit ceremony. At one point you want me to investigate history of Guru chela relationship, when I quoted historical facts, you accuse me of politics, which way I can debate with you? You are also giving stress on Guru chela history, what about Nand Lal and Ghaneeaa Ji who never took amrit, what is the status of Guru Chela in their context? The quote you give about Nand Lal is not a historical fact.[/B] [B][I]Quote:[/I][/B] [COLOR=navy]Before meeting Guru Gobind Singh Ji, Bhai Sahib was known as Naib Subedar of [/COLOR][COLOR=navy]Multan[/COLOR][COLOR=navy], and also as Mir Munshi of Aurangzeb's heir to the throne, Bhadur Shah.. To Sikhs he has been popularly known as Bhai Nand Lal Ji (Goya). Born in 1633 at Ghazni, Bhai Sahib became a great Persian poet and was strongly influenced by Rumi and Hafiz, whom he frequently quotes. In 1682, after his journey from [/COLOR][COLOR=navy]Multan[/COLOR][COLOR=navy] to [/COLOR][COLOR=navy]Amritsar[/COLOR][COLOR=navy], he stopped over in Anandpur Sahib to have the Blessed Darshan of Guru Gobind Singh Ji. . He immediately received "Gurdikhya" (Charn-Amrit), and became one of Guru Sahib's most devoted disciples and a Poet Laureate of His Darbar. In 1699, Bhai Sahib along with thousands of others took Khanday-Ki-Pahul (Baptism of the Double-Edged Sword), which had replaced the Charan-Amrit Ceremony. From then on he was known as Bhai Nand Singh Ji. [URL="http://www.sikhsangat.com/lofiversion/index.php/t10765.html"]The Voice of Sikh Youth > Is Khande Di Pahul and Amrit the same thing?[/URL][/COLOR] [B]Above quote has no historical bearing, he was never known as Nand Lal Singh. He is only known as Bhai Nand Lal ji, or Nand Lal Goaa, be aware, “Lal” is also a last name, if you don’t know.. I am hoping, very soon, Ghaneea ji will be known as Ghaneea Singh just to justify false assertions. While reading Historical sources, one is appalled to know how big heart of Guru Gobind Singh ji confused some at that time, this dogmatic approach is no where to close to represent him. Eighth[/B] The first proof is Bhai Nand Lal Ji is recognized by the Panth as a[I] brahmgiani.[/I] It is [U]impossible[/U] for him to have achieved this stage of spiritual development [U]without[/U] the Guru. In order for this process to be [I]activated[/I] it is required that the chela have his energy centers opened, his gates unlocked by the Naam Gurmantara and the deeksha of receiving the shabad-Jyot of the Guru. Can you please provide me proof where Bhai Nan Lal Ji and Bhai Kannaya Ji[B][I] did not have[/I][/B] [U]amrit deeksha[/U] other than your opinion or other people say? This is a non-fact. [B]What is the Sikh fact, give it with factual support please. [/B]Whether the Panth has available a written record of every person who ever received amrit from Satguru is not even feasible. How could brahmgiani and sant become brahmgiani and sant without the initiation of a process which is capable of [I]transforming [/I]them into brahmgianai and sant? They did not make themselves brahmgyani and sant. They needed a Satguru and chela discipleship for this to ever have taken place. The evidence that they had opened the dasam duar and become brahmgyani and sant is the proof! But to say they did not have amrit is to say that we can liberate ourselves without a Guru or commitment to Guruji's hukam. And that is impossible. We cannot enlighten ourselves by our own efforts. [B]We have in record names of Sikhs with Singh as last name,who were not as well known as Bhai Ghaneeaa and Bhai Nand lal ji, why Singh is missing from their name only? [/B] [I]Quote:[/I] [COLOR=darkred]Khalsa was designed to protect the weaker, to stand against tyranny. There are millions who bow to walk on panth of Guru Nanak Gobind Singh even without taking ceremony, I applaud them. I have met many Sikhs whose personal life inspired me to grow spiritually and they are SEHAJDHARI SIKHS. Coming back to conversion, we Sikhs are different in thinking as guided by Gurbani than Hindus or Muslims who think , people coming from other faiths are impure, we welcome them as pure as we think we are. I took amrit, I would not tell a lie. Did it help me to grow into a better Sikh, my honest answer is “no” because my savior is Gurbani. Did amrit ceremony make me feel better emotionally, answer is yes.[/COLOR] [B]Ninth[/B] Those who walk the path of Guru Nanak Dev Ji (and all 11 forms are Guru Nanak) without taking amrit are not the Guru's chelas. They are not in allegiance to the Guru's Rehit. They have not received the transmission of the Naam Gurmantara. They have not been implanted with the shabad-jyot to activate and unlock the subtle energy centers and thus open the dasam duar to obtain mukti. So, while I accept they are Sikhs, as believer's, they are without marriage bond of loyalty and commitment to follow the path of Guru Nanak. [B]Loyalty comes with heart not with rituals or attire. You can declare that decree but it cannot stop them to be better Sikhs. And there are many who after taking amrit are still in quagmire of hypocrisy , forgive me I have to say this. [/B] They are no different from any other human being. While someone of another faith may be good, and holy, and inspiring and heroic,[B] it is not our personal qualities which give us mukti. [/B]Gurbani is very clear on that. It is not we who activate this process by our own efforts. [B]No matter how inspirational any human being is, only Guruji is the deliverer in the Kalyug. [/B]And the path to liberation is the Naam which is received from Guru in the Guru Panj Piare after commiting to obey Guruji's hukam and live the sadhan prescription of Sikh dharam to counteract the panj dhoots, the duality, the haumai, the obscurations and defilements which result from our karam. This is Guruji's path of salvation. No one can be said to be walking Guruji's path who doesn't walk the path described by Guruji's hukam. [B]So all Sikhs who lived before Guru Gobind Singh ji were not true Sikhs, I think you are mixing Khalsa with Sikhs; A Sikh cannot be khalsa without taking amrit, and a Khalsa can be both Sikh as well as Khalsa, that is the difference. There were and still are SEHAJDHARI SIKHS, wonderful people and they believe only in Ten Guru and Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Contrary to you, I feel, they have the every right to be called Sikhs. [/B] [I]Quote:[/I] [COLOR=darkred]Last point: name changing. If Antonio ji has chosen her new faith Sikhism, she has a choice to take amrit ceremony when she feels ready to do that, none of the Sikh maryada rules opposes what I have stated above. I have Maryada with me,( by the way this maryada is being 90 percent violated in [/COLOR][COLOR=darkred]Punjab[/COLOR][COLOR=darkred] by the same Sikh category who boasts about it, please visit [/COLOR][COLOR=darkred]Punjab[/COLOR][COLOR=darkred], you will see it with your own eyes). So Sikh Maryada has nothing to say in this context either. I also give stress that over times some hypocrites can take over SGPC and Akaal Takhat Power but no one can ever take away from us is our Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Stick to Guru more than any one else. Guru Granth Sahib is asking our attention more than any thing, changing name without amrit ceremony will not harm the soul. [/COLOR] If Antonia Ji has chosen her new faith in Sikhism, this is wonderful. But the important question is did Guru choose you? And it is the [B][I]exchange of promises[/I][/B], as in spiritual marriage, the chela makes a vow and bond to Guru and Guru makes a vow and bond with chela which is the real conversion to Sikhi. And this marriage vow which binds Guru and chela together is not someone's opinion, not someone's kalpa of wishful thinking, which is the actual commitment to Guru! [B]That is your opinion, you are entitled to it. For me, call it wishful thinking or whatever, in realty it doesn’t matter, I doubt, as I took amrit, I can certainly say that Guru has chosen me. Guru demands all undivided attention and love for the Creator not merely ceremony is enough. [/B] [B]Tenth[/B] Never was there disagreement on her CHOICE to receive Gur-deeksha in amrit sinchaar. [B]But just naming herself Kaur will not make her the Guru's Kaur. To become the Guru's Kaur she must make a COMMITMENT to Guru and receive amrit.[/B]It was asserted by Namjap Ji that simply wearing panj kakkars, as extensively stated by people, will make a person amritdhari. [B]While a person can name himself whatever he likes, no one has the power to make oneself the Guru's Singh or Singhni. [/B]Because it is not by our own power that we activate the spiritual process. Only an [I]amritdhari [/I]is a Singh or Kaur. Only an amritdhari is a member of the Khalsa. [B]Antonio Ji, actually didn’t pose the question or on this thread, she never felt to discuss all what you are saying, at least, I am not aware of it. It was a simple question. Namjap ji and I suggested her that amrit ceremony was not necessary to change a name, it is still a fact, you couldn’t prove otherwise[/B]. [I]Quote:[/I] [COLOR=darkred]I have Maryada with me,( by the way this maryada is being 90 percent violated in [/COLOR][COLOR=darkred]Punjab[/COLOR][COLOR=darkred] by the same Sikh category who boasts about it, please visit [/COLOR][COLOR=darkred]Punjab[/COLOR][COLOR=darkred], you will see it with your own eyes). So Sikh Maryada has nothing to say in this context either. I also give stress that over times some hypocrites can take over SGPC and Akaal Takhat Power but no one can ever take away from us is our Guru Granth Sahib Ji.[/COLOR] What transpires in the Punjab has no relevance to the question of whether or not a person needs amrit to become a Singh/Singhni and have Gur-deeksha. You say the Rehit Maryada has nothing to say in this context. And you accuse that hypocrites have taken over the SGPC and Akal Takht thus invalidating the authority of Guruji's sargun saroop in Guru Khalsa Panth to make decisions regarding temporal affairs of Guruji's Sikhs. [B]Harjas Kaur Khalsa Ji, with all due respect, I have to tell you one thing in this context. I was pointing out that in case, SGPC and Akaal Takhat are taken over by hypocrites, would we follow them or Guru Ji? You missed my implied meaning. No one can ever take away our Guru Granth Sahib from us, so sticking to teachings Guru reveals to follow is the only way to survive as a Sikh in that case[/B] [I]Quote:[/I] [COLOR=navy]Akal Takhat (Punjabi: [/COLOR][COLOR=navy][FONT=Raavi]ਅਕਾਲ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=navy][FONT=Raavi]ਤਖ਼ਤ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=navy]) ... means the Throne of the Immortal and is the highest political institution of the Sikhs.... The Akal Takhat was founded by Guru Hargobind on [/COLOR][COLOR=navy]June 15, 1606[/COLOR][COLOR=navy] (now celebrated on 2 July) and was established as the place from which the spiritual and temporal concerns of the Sikh community could be acted upon. [URL="http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Shri_Akal_Takhat"]Shri Akal Takhat - SikhiWiki, free Sikh encyclopedia.[/URL][/COLOR] One must question, since you are basically saying you don't[I] recognize the authority[/I] of Akal Takht or the SGPC Sikh Rehit Maryada in this matter of naming ceremony, clarifying who is Singh/Singhni, or the necessity for amrit. And the only point of debate you offer is accusation that [I]"hypocrites" [/I]have taken over the institutions to come between you and Guruji. [B]Please reread it carefully, I used word “ CAN TAKE OVER” and you, very quickly since I am in disagreement with you, accuse me of not recognizing the authority of Akaal Takhat; obviously your being real Sikh couldn’t help you accusing some one of something he didn’t!! Twelfth[/B] If you don't accept Guru Panth, Guru Panj Piare, sovereignty of Akal Takht Sahib Ji, validity of Rehit Maryada, then acknowledge that openly. Historical sources are meaningless to decide this case. Whose version of history should we accept as authoritative? Nirmala? Udasi? Sanatan Nihang? [B]Respectfully I refuse to answer any questione based upon imagination because I accepted Panj Pyara, Akaal takhat. [/B] The Guru Khalsa Panth has accepted the Khande Ki Pahul of Guru. And the Guru Khalsa Panth has accepted Rehit Maryada. While not every Jatha accepts every point of every Rehit Maryada, all are agreed that a Khalsa must follow a Rehit Maryada. I follow the Rehit Maryada of the Panj Piare who I received amrit from. The Panj Piare are not "hypocrites" as you allege. This is not possible. Panj Piare are Guruji's own form and what they say is Guruji's hukam. This is not hypocrisy. [B]I gave you a hint about in case Akaal Takhat is taken over by hypocrites; however, you have stuck with the word “hypocrite” and are refusing to let it go. Reread before reacting, you are falsely accusing me of calling Panj pyara hypocrites. That does not become of you who took Khande dee Pahul!!!!!!![/B] [RIGHT][RIGHT][URL="http://digg.com/submit?phase=2&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sikhphilosophy.net%2Fsikh-youth%2F4106-sikh-names-4.html%2378007&title=Sikh+Names"][[/URL][/RIGHT] [/RIGHT] <<You're claiming conversion started from Guru Nanak Dev Ji by His enlightening people. Yet Guru Nanak Dev Ji, as a Guru, within an Indic tradition of Guru-chela relationships and a Master Jogi was giving Charan Pahul, which is deeksha.>>> i am surprised to read this. Do you have any proof to back up this statement? [B]Above is a question posed by amarsangheraji, in response to that, Guru Shabad you quoted does not support what you say. . He asked about charan pahul as dikhsha as you pointed out. Thre is no teaching about an exchange it with charan pahul, you can reread it.[/B] [I][COLOR=navy]Quote:[/COLOR][/I] The guru-shishya tradition, lineage, or parampara, is a spiritual relationship in traditional Hinduism where teachings are transmitted from a guru (teacher, [FONT=Mangal]गुरू[/FONT]) to a 'śi[FONT=Tahoma]ṣ[/FONT]ya' (disciple, [FONT=Mangal]शिष्य[/FONT]) or chela. Such knowledge, whether it be vedic, agamic artistic, architectural, musical or spiritual, is imparted through the developing relationship between the guru and the disciple. It is considered that this relationship, based on the genuineness of the guru, and the respect, commitment, devotion and obedience of the student, is the best way for subtle or advanced knowledge to be conveyed. The student eventually masters the knowledge that the guru embodies. The word Sikh is derived from the Sanskrit word shishya. It is related to the Brahmacharya. [B]Above your statement still doesn’t answer his question and SGGS 208, 211 , 477, 908, does not support your views of charan pahul dikhsha, it is all about learning from Guru about The Naam, Yoga is a reference to the prevailed way of spiritual liberation and about Guru’s view that unless ego gotten rid of, merely practicing Yoga wont help, real Yoga is to totally be lost in Him. On SGGS 923, it is about Gurgaddi of Guru Ram Das, not a word about charan pahul. Reference from Sidh Gost you have given has absolutely no link with charan pahul. When you pull out a Shabad, read it completely, you can find relevant Guru teachings. In the following Guru Vaak, its about HIS infinity and Guru Ji’s wish/longing to bow unconditionally to one who realized HIM, cutting head off is a horrible translation, its means egoless bowing..[/B] [B]And who are these gateway to Sikhism who boast about knowledge of Sikhi but horribly failed to put acceptable translation?[/B] [I] Charan Dhoe Rehraas Kar Charnamrit Gursikhaan Pilaaayaa (Var 1, Pauri 23 Bhai Gurdas Ji)[/I] [B][I]Its meaning is not that Guru ji brought big bowl of water, cleaned feet and called all Sikhs to drink it. Please, you can do better than that[/I][/B] [I][COLOR=darkred]Sahib Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji prescribed specific rules and regulations which must be unconditionally accepted by the candidates before they can be admitted as disciples (Sikhs). The ceremony by which the Panj Pyaras are authorized by the Satguru to admit such persons in the fold of Sikhism is partaking Khande-ki-Pahul or Amrit. Therefore, according to the Commandment of the Satguru, one can become a Sikh of the Guru only by taking Amrit. Such a person is also called an Amritdhari because he has been blessed with the holy Amrit and has, thus, become a Sikh. It is further explicit from the following couplet from Rahitnamaa of Bhai Desa Singh Ji. [/COLOR][/I] [B][I][COLOR=darkred]If Guru ji said what all Desa Singh claims, Guru ji would have put in writing, Sikhs say he wrote all Dasm Granth and Sarbh Loh, well why not a few rules and regulations about amrit ceremony were penned down by him [U]in the above context.? Why Desa Singh ji is silent on BhaiGhaneeaa Ji and Bhai Nand Lal jI?[/U] [/COLOR][/I][/B][I][COLOR=navy]P[/COLOR][COLOR=darkred] Generally, people do not grasp the true meaning of the terms Amritdhari and non-Amritdhari Sikhs. The phrase non-Amritdhari Sikhs is meaningless. One cannot make a comparison between them. There is only one class of Sikhs and that class is the SIKH (Khalsa). Thus, one is either a Sikh or not a Sikh. [/COLOR][/I] [B][I][COLOR=darkred] Thank God,that decree was not given by Guru Gobind SinghJi but still you have the right to do so; I have difficulty to portrait Guru Gobind Singh ji as a dictator type of spiritual King. [/FONT][/COLOR][/I][/B] [/QUOTE]
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