☀️ JOIN SPN MOBILE
Forums
New posts
Guru Granth Sahib
Composition, Arrangement & Layout
ਜਪੁ | Jup
ਸੋ ਦਰੁ | So Dar
ਸੋਹਿਲਾ | Sohilaa
ਰਾਗੁ ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ | Raag Siree-Raag
Gurbani (14-53)
Ashtpadiyan (53-71)
Gurbani (71-74)
Pahre (74-78)
Chhant (78-81)
Vanjara (81-82)
Vaar Siri Raag (83-91)
Bhagat Bani (91-93)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਾਝ | Raag Maajh
Gurbani (94-109)
Ashtpadi (109)
Ashtpadiyan (110-129)
Ashtpadi (129-130)
Ashtpadiyan (130-133)
Bara Maha (133-136)
Din Raen (136-137)
Vaar Maajh Ki (137-150)
ਰਾਗੁ ਗਉੜੀ | Raag Gauree
Gurbani (151-185)
Quartets/Couplets (185-220)
Ashtpadiyan (220-234)
Karhalei (234-235)
Ashtpadiyan (235-242)
Chhant (242-249)
Baavan Akhari (250-262)
Sukhmani (262-296)
Thittee (296-300)
Gauree kii Vaar (300-323)
Gurbani (323-330)
Ashtpadiyan (330-340)
Baavan Akhari (340-343)
Thintteen (343-344)
Vaar Kabir (344-345)
Bhagat Bani (345-346)
ਰਾਗੁ ਆਸਾ | Raag Aasaa
Gurbani (347-348)
Chaupaday (348-364)
Panchpadde (364-365)
Kaafee (365-409)
Aasaavaree (409-411)
Ashtpadiyan (411-432)
Patee (432-435)
Chhant (435-462)
Vaar Aasaa (462-475)
Bhagat Bani (475-488)
ਰਾਗੁ ਗੂਜਰੀ | Raag Goojaree
Gurbani (489-503)
Ashtpadiyan (503-508)
Vaar Gujari (508-517)
Vaar Gujari (517-526)
ਰਾਗੁ ਦੇਵਗੰਧਾਰੀ | Raag Dayv-Gandhaaree
Gurbani (527-536)
ਰਾਗੁ ਬਿਹਾਗੜਾ | Raag Bihaagraa
Gurbani (537-556)
Chhant (538-548)
Vaar Bihaagraa (548-556)
ਰਾਗੁ ਵਡਹੰਸ | Raag Wadhans
Gurbani (557-564)
Ashtpadiyan (564-565)
Chhant (565-575)
Ghoriaan (575-578)
Alaahaniiaa (578-582)
Vaar Wadhans (582-594)
ਰਾਗੁ ਸੋਰਠਿ | Raag Sorath
Gurbani (595-634)
Asatpadhiya (634-642)
Vaar Sorath (642-659)
ਰਾਗੁ ਧਨਾਸਰੀ | Raag Dhanasaree
Gurbani (660-685)
Astpadhiya (685-687)
Chhant (687-691)
Bhagat Bani (691-695)
ਰਾਗੁ ਜੈਤਸਰੀ | Raag Jaitsree
Gurbani (696-703)
Chhant (703-705)
Vaar Jaitsaree (705-710)
Bhagat Bani (710)
ਰਾਗੁ ਟੋਡੀ | Raag Todee
ਰਾਗੁ ਬੈਰਾੜੀ | Raag Bairaaree
ਰਾਗੁ ਤਿਲੰਗ | Raag Tilang
Gurbani (721-727)
Bhagat Bani (727)
ਰਾਗੁ ਸੂਹੀ | Raag Suhi
Gurbani (728-750)
Ashtpadiyan (750-761)
Kaafee (761-762)
Suchajee (762)
Gunvantee (763)
Chhant (763-785)
Vaar Soohee (785-792)
Bhagat Bani (792-794)
ਰਾਗੁ ਬਿਲਾਵਲੁ | Raag Bilaaval
Gurbani (795-831)
Ashtpadiyan (831-838)
Thitteen (838-840)
Vaar Sat (841-843)
Chhant (843-848)
Vaar Bilaaval (849-855)
Bhagat Bani (855-858)
ਰਾਗੁ ਗੋਂਡ | Raag Gond
Gurbani (859-869)
Ashtpadiyan (869)
Bhagat Bani (870-875)
ਰਾਗੁ ਰਾਮਕਲੀ | Raag Ramkalee
Ashtpadiyan (902-916)
Gurbani (876-902)
Anand (917-922)
Sadd (923-924)
Chhant (924-929)
Dakhnee (929-938)
Sidh Gosat (938-946)
Vaar Ramkalee (947-968)
ਰਾਗੁ ਨਟ ਨਾਰਾਇਨ | Raag Nat Narayan
Gurbani (975-980)
Ashtpadiyan (980-983)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਾਲੀ ਗਉੜਾ | Raag Maalee Gauraa
Gurbani (984-988)
Bhagat Bani (988)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਾਰੂ | Raag Maaroo
Gurbani (889-1008)
Ashtpadiyan (1008-1014)
Kaafee (1014-1016)
Ashtpadiyan (1016-1019)
Anjulian (1019-1020)
Solhe (1020-1033)
Dakhni (1033-1043)
ਰਾਗੁ ਤੁਖਾਰੀ | Raag Tukhaari
Bara Maha (1107-1110)
Chhant (1110-1117)
ਰਾਗੁ ਕੇਦਾਰਾ | Raag Kedara
Gurbani (1118-1123)
Bhagat Bani (1123-1124)
ਰਾਗੁ ਭੈਰਉ | Raag Bhairo
Gurbani (1125-1152)
Partaal (1153)
Ashtpadiyan (1153-1167)
ਰਾਗੁ ਬਸੰਤੁ | Raag Basant
Gurbani (1168-1187)
Ashtpadiyan (1187-1193)
Vaar Basant (1193-1196)
ਰਾਗੁ ਸਾਰਗ | Raag Saarag
Gurbani (1197-1200)
Partaal (1200-1231)
Ashtpadiyan (1232-1236)
Chhant (1236-1237)
Vaar Saarang (1237-1253)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਲਾਰ | Raag Malaar
Gurbani (1254-1293)
Partaal (1265-1273)
Ashtpadiyan (1273-1278)
Chhant (1278)
Vaar Malaar (1278-91)
Bhagat Bani (1292-93)
ਰਾਗੁ ਕਾਨੜਾ | Raag Kaanraa
Gurbani (1294-96)
Partaal (1296-1318)
Ashtpadiyan (1308-1312)
Chhant (1312)
Vaar Kaanraa
Bhagat Bani (1318)
ਰਾਗੁ ਕਲਿਆਨ | Raag Kalyaan
Gurbani (1319-23)
Ashtpadiyan (1323-26)
ਰਾਗੁ ਪ੍ਰਭਾਤੀ | Raag Prabhaatee
Gurbani (1327-1341)
Ashtpadiyan (1342-51)
ਰਾਗੁ ਜੈਜਾਵੰਤੀ | Raag Jaijaiwanti
Gurbani (1352-53)
Salok | Gatha | Phunahe | Chaubole | Swayiye
Sehskritee Mahala 1
Sehskritee Mahala 5
Gaathaa Mahala 5
Phunhay Mahala 5
Chaubolae Mahala 5
Shaloks Bhagat Kabir
Shaloks Sheikh Farid
Swaiyyae Mahala 5
Swaiyyae in Praise of Gurus
Shaloks in Addition To Vaars
Shalok Ninth Mehl
Mundavanee Mehl 5
ਰਾਗ ਮਾਲਾ, Raag Maalaa
What's new
New posts
New media
New media comments
New resources
Latest activity
Videos
New media
New comments
Library
Latest reviews
Donate
Log in
Register
What's new
New posts
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Welcome to all New Sikh Philosophy Network Forums!
Explore Sikh Sikhi Sikhism...
Sign up
Log in
Discussions
Interfaith Dialogues
Wonderful Excerpts Of SPN Member Confused Ji's Post
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Archived_member15" data-source="post: 168510" data-attributes="member: 17438"><p>My dear brother Confused ji peacesignkaur</p><p> </p><p>Thank you very much for your reply. </p><p> </p><p> </p><p>I would like to attach some comments to your comments (I'll focus on just a few right now, others later): </p><p> </p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p> </p><p>He means eternity in the sense of "Uncreated" not an eternal soul/self. </p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p><span style="font-size: 12px">"...Our essential nature is uncreated, never-born and free in and for itself. It is found in all creatures, but is not restricted to them; it is outside all creatures, but not excluded from them..." </span></p><p> </p><p><span style="font-size: 12px"><strong><em>- The Cloud of Unknowing (14th-century), classic text of Catholic mysticism </em></strong></span></p><p> </p><p> </p><p>Didn't the Buddha refer to Nirvana as "unborn" and "uncreated"? </p><p> </p><p>Angelus did not believe that "he" as a person existed at all before his birth. Rather he was saying that there is an Unborn Ground which is the essential nature of all sentient beings. </p><p> </p><p>The Bible agrees with your view that moments are fleeting. I believe you have misunderstood Angelus: </p><p> </p><p> </p><p>In Ecclesiastes Koheleth writes: </p><p> </p><p> </p><p><span style="font-size: 12px">"...Emptying upon emptying! - said the Preacher - Emptying upon emptying! Everything is impermanent...All rivers empty into the sea, yet the sea never fills; indeed the waters rise and return to the river's mouth that they might flow yet again...Nothing lasts, everything is transient, and all effort to the contrary is a needless gasping for air...a useless panting, yielding nothing of lasting value...Everything in this world has its moment, a season of ripening and falling away...Moments of birthing and moments of dying; moments of planting and moments of reaping...Moments of seeking and moments of losing...I have looked deeply into this human affliction. Everything is beautiful in its moment but the ripening is hidden from your mind and you cannot comprehend beginnings or endings...Reality's flow is endless, moment to moment nothing is added and nothing is taken away, and its sole purpose is to open you to wonder...The fate of all life is forever the same: from dust arising to dust returning...And I discerned that wisdom is superior to folly...Wisdom opens the eye to consequence, while folly provides no discernment. And yet the wise and the foolish share the same reward - death...And I concluded that wisdom, too, was empty..." </span></p><p> </p><p><span style="font-size: 12px"><strong><em>- The Book of Ecclesiastes, Bible </em></strong></span></p><p> </p><p> </p><p>The only place that the biblical author disagrees with you is on wisdom. Even it too is ultimately empty and fleeting. </p><p> </p><p>This is learning to live with <em>unknowing. </em>One moment flows to another, so subtle is the flow that it is often not noticed. By the time you perceive something arising it is already passing away. </p><p> </p><p>Earlier on in my post, I quoted Saint John of the Cross at this point, who said (In part, read back for the full): </p><p> </p><p> </p><p>"...<em>I entered where there is no knowing,</em></p><p><em></em></p><p><em>and unknowing I remained,</em></p><p></p><p><em>all knowledge there transcending...."</em></p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p> </p><p>But aren't you presuming that Angelus believes in a "self" that he has to lose? That is not what entering the Ground means. Rather as Cyprian Smith said in that quote lower down in my earlier post: </p><p> </p><p> </p><p>"...We are a different 'self' depending on the moods or activities of the moment...There is nothing to give any unity or continiuity to my identity...I am not one self but a sequence of different or even conflicting selves..." </p><p> </p><p><strong>- Cyrprian Smith OSB, Catholic theologian and mystic</strong></p><p> </p><p> </p><p>Upon entering the Ground we realize that there is no unified identity and that we are not a single, unified "self". </p><p> </p><p>Eckhart entered the Ground: </p><p> </p><p> </p><p><span style="font-size: 12px">"...The Ground is inexpressible...For though she sink all sinking in the oneness of divinity, she never touches bottom. For it is of the very essence...that she is powerless to plumb the depths...<strong>And here one cannot speak of the soul anymore</strong>, for she has lost her nature yonder in the oneness of divine essence. <strong>When the soul has lost her nature in the Oneness, we can no longer speak of a 'soul' - but of immeasurable Being</strong>...Your very something must become nothing, drive all something, all nothing away! Leave place, leave time, and images as well! Go without way on the narrow path, thus you will come to the desert...into the nothing, sink into the bottomless swell!..."</span></p><p> </p><p><span style="font-size: 12px"><strong><em>- Meister Eckhart (1260-1328), Catholic mystic and Dominican priest</em></strong> </span></p><p> </p><p> </p><p><span style="font-size: 12px">"...I discovered myself to be nothing but nothing; an unweighable substance; a sea that cannot be sailed...I find that I exist as nothing but nothing..."</span></p><p> </p><p><span style="font-size: 12px"><strong><em>- Thomas A. Kempis (c. 1380 – 1471), Catholic monk and mystic</em></strong></span></p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p>That is the GROUND. It is not a "space" and it is the deepest aspect of our reality. One goes so deep into this ground that there no longer any awarenss of a soul but rather of a state of single-minded oneness beyond all forms. It is not eternal in the sense you describe since eternity posits "time", succession in time. Rather it is <em>beyond time</em> and so it is a <em>state</em> devoid of time and place. </p><p> </p><p> </p><p>I would say that 'it' (for want of a better word) is not a space but a <em>state</em>. It is inexpressible, ineffable and beyond space/place and time. It is beyond all forms, mental images, sensuality, surface personality, emotions, thoughts etc. A person who lives within the Ground is no longer affected by the past nor the future but exists solely in the present moment. He is no longer depressed by bad things, or overjoyed by good things rather he exists in a <em>state</em> of complete detachment from self and all things: in equainimity and in pure, untramelled being. Nothing rocks his inner serenity, even if the world were to be collapsing around him. </p><p> </p><p>The Ground is nameless, so we cannot assign any true name to it which could explain its identity - for it has none. </p><p> </p><p>The Ground is completely empty. But our everyday consciousness is so clouded by emotions and thoughts that we are not aware of it, and thus we don't recognize it. </p><p> </p><p>When one enters the Ground there are little or even no thoughts. One experiences profound stillness, or calmness. Then emptiness arises. </p><p> </p><p>This is a state of complete <em>unknowing</em>. </p><p> </p><p> </p><p><span style="font-size: 12px">"...I have said at times that there is a power, untouched by time and flesh, which alone is free...Sometimes I have said it is a little spark. But now I say it is neither this nor that... Therefore now call it by a nobler name than ever before, but it repudiates this nobility and this mode and is far above them. It is free from all names, and altogether unimpeded, untrammeled and free from all modes...It is so completely free and simple, that it cannot in any way be perceived...It is free of all names and void of all forms. It is one and simple, and no man can in any wise behold it...Dear children, you must know that true spiritual life leads to perfect freedom from self and all things...One cares nothing, seeks nothing, has nothing, wants nothing for oneself, but frankly resigns oneself to eternal law. Those who live this life, they verily attain to unity, and to know the truth one has to dwell in unity and be the unity...The highest knowing and seeing is knowing and seeing, unknowing and unseeing...To know anything of self is to know nothing...True detachment means a mind as little moved by what befalls, by joy and sorrow, honor and disgrace, as a broad mountain by a gentle breeze... Be sure of this: absolute stillness for as long as possible is best of all for you..." </span></p><p> </p><p><span style="font-size: 12px"><strong><em>- Meister Eckhart (1260-1328), Catholic mystic and Dominican priest </em></strong></span></p><p> </p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p>This makes me think that you have misunderstood Angelus, the man who wrote: </p><p> </p><p> </p><p><span style="font-size: 12px">“The rose is without why; it blooms because it blooms; it pays no attention to itself, nor asks whether one sees it.”</span> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p>Eckhart explained this several centuries before: </p><p> </p><p> </p><p><span style="font-size: 12px">"...This I know, that the only way to live is like the rose which lives without a <em>'why'...</em>Man must live without why...Why do you love truth? - Because of truth. - Why do you love justice? - Because of justice. - Why do you love the good? - Because of the good. - Why do you live? - Forsooth! I don't know! But I am happy to live...You might ask life itself over a period of a thousand years the following question: "Why are you alive?" And still the only response you would receive would be: 'I live so that I may live'. Why does this happen? Because life rises from its own foundation and rises out of itself. Therefore, life lives without a reason - life lives for itself..." </span></p><p> </p><p><span style="font-size: 12px"><em>- Meister Eckhart (c. 1260-1327) (Sermon Seventy One), Catholic mystic and Dominican priest</em></span> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p>I look forward to your responses peacesignkaur</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Archived_member15, post: 168510, member: 17438"] My dear brother Confused ji peacesignkaur Thank you very much for your reply. I would like to attach some comments to your comments (I'll focus on just a few right now, others later): He means eternity in the sense of "Uncreated" not an eternal soul/self. [SIZE=3]"...Our essential nature is uncreated, never-born and free in and for itself. It is found in all creatures, but is not restricted to them; it is outside all creatures, but not excluded from them..." [/SIZE] [SIZE=3][B][I]- The Cloud of Unknowing (14th-century), classic text of Catholic mysticism [/I][/B][/SIZE] Didn't the Buddha refer to Nirvana as "unborn" and "uncreated"? Angelus did not believe that "he" as a person existed at all before his birth. Rather he was saying that there is an Unborn Ground which is the essential nature of all sentient beings. The Bible agrees with your view that moments are fleeting. I believe you have misunderstood Angelus: In Ecclesiastes Koheleth writes: [SIZE=3]"...Emptying upon emptying! - said the Preacher - Emptying upon emptying! Everything is impermanent...All rivers empty into the sea, yet the sea never fills; indeed the waters rise and return to the river's mouth that they might flow yet again...Nothing lasts, everything is transient, and all effort to the contrary is a needless gasping for air...a useless panting, yielding nothing of lasting value...Everything in this world has its moment, a season of ripening and falling away...Moments of birthing and moments of dying; moments of planting and moments of reaping...Moments of seeking and moments of losing...I have looked deeply into this human affliction. Everything is beautiful in its moment but the ripening is hidden from your mind and you cannot comprehend beginnings or endings...Reality's flow is endless, moment to moment nothing is added and nothing is taken away, and its sole purpose is to open you to wonder...The fate of all life is forever the same: from dust arising to dust returning...And I discerned that wisdom is superior to folly...Wisdom opens the eye to consequence, while folly provides no discernment. And yet the wise and the foolish share the same reward - death...And I concluded that wisdom, too, was empty..." [/SIZE] [SIZE=3][B][I]- The Book of Ecclesiastes, Bible [/I][/B][/SIZE] The only place that the biblical author disagrees with you is on wisdom. Even it too is ultimately empty and fleeting. This is learning to live with [I]unknowing. [/I]One moment flows to another, so subtle is the flow that it is often not noticed. By the time you perceive something arising it is already passing away. Earlier on in my post, I quoted Saint John of the Cross at this point, who said (In part, read back for the full): "...[I]I entered where there is no knowing, and unknowing I remained,[/I] [I]all knowledge there transcending...."[/I] But aren't you presuming that Angelus believes in a "self" that he has to lose? That is not what entering the Ground means. Rather as Cyprian Smith said in that quote lower down in my earlier post: "...We are a different 'self' depending on the moods or activities of the moment...There is nothing to give any unity or continiuity to my identity...I am not one self but a sequence of different or even conflicting selves..." [B]- Cyrprian Smith OSB, Catholic theologian and mystic[/B] Upon entering the Ground we realize that there is no unified identity and that we are not a single, unified "self". Eckhart entered the Ground: [SIZE=3]"...The Ground is inexpressible...For though she sink all sinking in the oneness of divinity, she never touches bottom. For it is of the very essence...that she is powerless to plumb the depths...[B]And here one cannot speak of the soul anymore[/B], for she has lost her nature yonder in the oneness of divine essence. [B]When the soul has lost her nature in the Oneness, we can no longer speak of a 'soul' - but of immeasurable Being[/B]...Your very something must become nothing, drive all something, all nothing away! Leave place, leave time, and images as well! Go without way on the narrow path, thus you will come to the desert...into the nothing, sink into the bottomless swell!..."[/SIZE] [SIZE=3][B][I]- Meister Eckhart (1260-1328), Catholic mystic and Dominican priest[/I][/B] [/SIZE] [SIZE=3]"...I discovered myself to be nothing but nothing; an unweighable substance; a sea that cannot be sailed...I find that I exist as nothing but nothing..."[/SIZE] [SIZE=3][B][I]- Thomas A. Kempis (c. 1380 – 1471), Catholic monk and mystic[/I][/B][/SIZE] That is the GROUND. It is not a "space" and it is the deepest aspect of our reality. One goes so deep into this ground that there no longer any awarenss of a soul but rather of a state of single-minded oneness beyond all forms. It is not eternal in the sense you describe since eternity posits "time", succession in time. Rather it is [I]beyond time[/I] and so it is a [I]state[/I] devoid of time and place. I would say that 'it' (for want of a better word) is not a space but a [I]state[/I]. It is inexpressible, ineffable and beyond space/place and time. It is beyond all forms, mental images, sensuality, surface personality, emotions, thoughts etc. A person who lives within the Ground is no longer affected by the past nor the future but exists solely in the present moment. He is no longer depressed by bad things, or overjoyed by good things rather he exists in a [I]state[/I] of complete detachment from self and all things: in equainimity and in pure, untramelled being. Nothing rocks his inner serenity, even if the world were to be collapsing around him. The Ground is nameless, so we cannot assign any true name to it which could explain its identity - for it has none. The Ground is completely empty. But our everyday consciousness is so clouded by emotions and thoughts that we are not aware of it, and thus we don't recognize it. When one enters the Ground there are little or even no thoughts. One experiences profound stillness, or calmness. Then emptiness arises. This is a state of complete [I]unknowing[/I]. [SIZE=3]"...I have said at times that there is a power, untouched by time and flesh, which alone is free...Sometimes I have said it is a little spark. But now I say it is neither this nor that... Therefore now call it by a nobler name than ever before, but it repudiates this nobility and this mode and is far above them. It is free from all names, and altogether unimpeded, untrammeled and free from all modes...It is so completely free and simple, that it cannot in any way be perceived...It is free of all names and void of all forms. It is one and simple, and no man can in any wise behold it...Dear children, you must know that true spiritual life leads to perfect freedom from self and all things...One cares nothing, seeks nothing, has nothing, wants nothing for oneself, but frankly resigns oneself to eternal law. Those who live this life, they verily attain to unity, and to know the truth one has to dwell in unity and be the unity...The highest knowing and seeing is knowing and seeing, unknowing and unseeing...To know anything of self is to know nothing...True detachment means a mind as little moved by what befalls, by joy and sorrow, honor and disgrace, as a broad mountain by a gentle breeze... Be sure of this: absolute stillness for as long as possible is best of all for you..." [/SIZE] [SIZE=3][B][I]- Meister Eckhart (1260-1328), Catholic mystic and Dominican priest [/I][/B][/SIZE] This makes me think that you have misunderstood Angelus, the man who wrote: [SIZE=3]“The rose is without why; it blooms because it blooms; it pays no attention to itself, nor asks whether one sees it.”[/SIZE] Eckhart explained this several centuries before: [SIZE=3]"...This I know, that the only way to live is like the rose which lives without a [I]'why'...[/I]Man must live without why...Why do you love truth? - Because of truth. - Why do you love justice? - Because of justice. - Why do you love the good? - Because of the good. - Why do you live? - Forsooth! I don't know! But I am happy to live...You might ask life itself over a period of a thousand years the following question: "Why are you alive?" And still the only response you would receive would be: 'I live so that I may live'. Why does this happen? Because life rises from its own foundation and rises out of itself. Therefore, life lives without a reason - life lives for itself..." [/SIZE] [SIZE=3][I]- Meister Eckhart (c. 1260-1327) (Sermon Seventy One), Catholic mystic and Dominican priest[/I][/SIZE] I look forward to your responses peacesignkaur [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Discussions
Interfaith Dialogues
Wonderful Excerpts Of SPN Member Confused Ji's Post
This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
Accept
Learn more…
Top