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ਰਾਗੁ ਦੇਵਗੰਧਾਰੀ | Raag Dayv-Gandhaaree
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Gurbani (696-703)
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ਰਾਗੁ ਟੋਡੀ | Raag Todee
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Gurbani (721-727)
Bhagat Bani (727)
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Gurbani (728-750)
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Chhant (843-848)
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ਰਾਗੁ ਗੋਂਡ | Raag Gond
Gurbani (859-869)
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ਰਾਗੁ ਨਟ ਨਾਰਾਇਨ | Raag Nat Narayan
Gurbani (975-980)
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ਰਾਗੁ ਮਾਲੀ ਗਉੜਾ | Raag Maalee Gauraa
Gurbani (984-988)
Bhagat Bani (988)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਾਰੂ | Raag Maaroo
Gurbani (889-1008)
Ashtpadiyan (1008-1014)
Kaafee (1014-1016)
Ashtpadiyan (1016-1019)
Anjulian (1019-1020)
Solhe (1020-1033)
Dakhni (1033-1043)
ਰਾਗੁ ਤੁਖਾਰੀ | Raag Tukhaari
Bara Maha (1107-1110)
Chhant (1110-1117)
ਰਾਗੁ ਕੇਦਾਰਾ | Raag Kedara
Gurbani (1118-1123)
Bhagat Bani (1123-1124)
ਰਾਗੁ ਭੈਰਉ | Raag Bhairo
Gurbani (1125-1152)
Partaal (1153)
Ashtpadiyan (1153-1167)
ਰਾਗੁ ਬਸੰਤੁ | Raag Basant
Gurbani (1168-1187)
Ashtpadiyan (1187-1193)
Vaar Basant (1193-1196)
ਰਾਗੁ ਸਾਰਗ | Raag Saarag
Gurbani (1197-1200)
Partaal (1200-1231)
Ashtpadiyan (1232-1236)
Chhant (1236-1237)
Vaar Saarang (1237-1253)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਲਾਰ | Raag Malaar
Gurbani (1254-1293)
Partaal (1265-1273)
Ashtpadiyan (1273-1278)
Chhant (1278)
Vaar Malaar (1278-91)
Bhagat Bani (1292-93)
ਰਾਗੁ ਕਾਨੜਾ | Raag Kaanraa
Gurbani (1294-96)
Partaal (1296-1318)
Ashtpadiyan (1308-1312)
Chhant (1312)
Vaar Kaanraa
Bhagat Bani (1318)
ਰਾਗੁ ਕਲਿਆਨ | Raag Kalyaan
Gurbani (1319-23)
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ਰਾਗੁ ਪ੍ਰਭਾਤੀ | Raag Prabhaatee
Gurbani (1327-1341)
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ਰਾਗੁ ਜੈਜਾਵੰਤੀ | Raag Jaijaiwanti
Gurbani (1352-53)
Salok | Gatha | Phunahe | Chaubole | Swayiye
Sehskritee Mahala 1
Sehskritee Mahala 5
Gaathaa Mahala 5
Phunhay Mahala 5
Chaubolae Mahala 5
Shaloks Bhagat Kabir
Shaloks Sheikh Farid
Swaiyyae Mahala 5
Swaiyyae in Praise of Gurus
Shaloks in Addition To Vaars
Shalok Ninth Mehl
Mundavanee Mehl 5
ਰਾਗ ਮਾਲਾ, Raag Maalaa
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Wonderful Excerpts Of SPN Member Confused Ji's Post
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<blockquote data-quote="Archived_member14" data-source="post: 164183" data-attributes="member: 586"><p>Ambarsaria ji,</p><p></p><p></p><p>Ambarsaria: As Parma ji suggested I believe the dialog is getting stuck in the weeds of what is thought and what is thinking. It is kind of inappropriate and not helpful if we don't use common understanding of usage of some words. To help let us see if we agree about the key words repeated often. </p><p></p><p></p><p><span style="color: Blue">Confused: With regard to the concepts I've been talking about, I have given some further explanation in my last response to Parma ji. I hope that is satisfactory, if not, please let me know. </span></p><p><span style="color: Blue">I will therefore now go straight to your other comments.</span></p><p></p><p>=====</p><p>Ambarsaria: Perhaps we can retrace where we started physically as a help to see how and where we are.</p><p></p><p>1. In the womb</p><p></p><p></p><p><span style="color: blue">Confused: Sorry to interrupt, but I must question the reason why you choose this as a starting point. You know of course that I see conception / birth as result of karma. This means that the beginning is in fact unknown. But is it even important to trace things back to the beginning? I don't think so.</span></p><p><span style="color: blue"></span></p><p><span style="color: blue">Based on the characteristic of the experience now, the most we can know is either that it has a cause in the past or is cause for future arising of consciousness. But when it comes to what is involved in the arising / existence at that very moment, it will be seen as conditioned by a host of other realities. The imperative is therefore to develop a better understanding about the present moment reality. This prevents one from thinking in terms of a succession of events and starting points, which can only be speculative in nature.</span></p><p><span style="color: blue"></span></p><p>=====</p><p>Ambarsaria:</p><p>2. Born</p><p>Our own heart beat</p><p>Hear beyond the embryonic fluid</p><p>See beyond the embryonic fluid</p><p>Touch beyond the inner body of mother</p><p>Taste beyond the embryonic fluid</p><p>Smell beyond the embryonic fluid</p><p></p><p><span style="color: blue">Confused: I think by 'Born' here you are simply pointing to that which demarcates time within the womb and outside and not that life starts from here?</span></p><p><span style="color: blue"></span></p><p><span style="color: blue">But what is the point of referring to what might have taken place inside and outside of the womb? </span></p><p></p><p>====</p><p>Ambarsaria:</p><p>3. Our brain wiring begins for the world outside of the womb and as of our senses</p><p></p><p><span style="color: blue">Confused: Are you suggesting a particular and crucial role on the part of brain in one’s moment to moment experience? If so what would that be? </span></p><p></p><p>====</p><p>Ambarsaria:</p><p>4. Thinking and thoughts develop and leave traces</p><p>Thinking and thoughts continue to leave ever more traces</p><p></p><p><span style="color: blue">Confused: Can you elaborate on this idea of “traces”?</span></p><p>===</p><p>Ambarsaria:</p><p>5. We are where we are,</p><p></p><p>*We as one being act as from,</p><p></p><p>The history that we have lived to date</p><p></p><p></p><p><span style="color: blue">Confused: By history, do you mean one, the different situations and reaction to those situations? Two, that which lies between the time one came out of the womb and the present?</span></p><p><span style="color: blue">Regarding the first, I wonder if it is in fact reducible to such things as attachment, aversion, ignorance, conceit and so on on one hand, and wisdom, kindness, morality and so on on the other? And that these are accumulative in nature and remain as underlying tendencies? If so, then you must provide some explanation as to what might be the cause for these same at the beginning following conception and also when the child just came out of the womb, given that you do not believe in past lives? </span></p><p></p><p>===</p><p>Ambarsaria:</p><p>The experiences we have lived to date</p><p>The thoughts that we have lived to date</p><p></p><p><span style="color: blue">Confused: So it appears that in fact you do not associate history with the fundamental experiences which I pointed out above. </span></p><p><span style="color: blue">So we have A) History, B) Experiences and C) Thoughts.</span></p><p><span style="color: blue"></span></p><p><span style="color: blue">I see only B. as having any import. A. is an abstraction. C. is irrelevant given that it is B. or the fundamental experiences which conditions the thoughts and accumulates as tendency.</span></p><p><span style="color: blue"></span></p><p>====</p><p>Ambarsaria:</p><p>The conditioning that we have developed to date</p><p></p><p><span style="color: blue">Confused: To condition and be conditioned is the nature and function of B. or fundamental experiences. Are you pointing to something else that exists apart from these experiences? What would that be?</span></p><p></p><p>====</p><p>Ambarsaria:</p><p>6. Instances of consciousness and the like that rise and fall are only in the context and of note as per Items 4 and 5 above.</p><p></p><p><span style="color: blue">Confused: Yes thinking is an instance of consciousness, but thoughts on the other hand are imagined, and this is what we should come to understand, namely the distinction between reality and concept. So while thinking as you do in 1, 2, and 3 for example, wisdom would know in fact that it is just that, namely *an instance of thinking / consciousness*. What else is there but an instance of consciousness (and the accompanying mental factor or a physical reality which appears now) at any given moment as potential object of understanding? In other words, how could anything other than what is present “now” act as basis for true knowledge? If it is not what is real now, would it not be simply concepts about this and that? And if the reality / concept distinction is not understood, would this not mean that concepts are mistaken for reality?</span></p><p><span style="color: blue"></span></p><p>====</p><p>Ambarsaria:</p><p>7. We die and we leave influences of parts of our 5 in the main with others and their equivalent 4, 5 and 6.</p><p></p><p><span style="color: blue">Confused: You are imagining this and would do well to realize that this thinking is in fact the reality now. Just as the “other” is experienced by us only as a concept conditioned variously at different times by such realities as ignorance, attachment, aversion, kindness, respect and so on, so too, “we” are only a concept conceived of by the thinking consciousness that has arisen in the “other”. But if we believe that there is anything more than this including that we leave influence on others, this may well be due to the influences of ignorance, attachment, conceit and of wrong understanding. So better know these when they appear and are influencing the thinking, is it not? If not then we just increase more and more of these tendencies and anything else which follow.</span></p><p> </p><p>===</p><p>Ambarsaria:</p><p>NOTE: In some other posts I have tried to explain this as partial rebirth of ourselves in others and theirs in us. A pseudo and partial incarnation if you may.</p><p>Any comments.</p><p></p><p><span style="color: blue">Confused: It takes particular set of conditions to remember anything at all. </span></p><p><span style="color: blue">It is different in each case when remembering what was perceived at the time with ignorance etc., with kindness and so on and with wisdom. Each comes down to the person's own accumulated tendency and nothing to do with what the other person is. For example, a kind act by one person may be perceived with suspicion by the other. Indeed it is the case that even before there is any recognition of who the other person is, wholesome or unwholesome roots already decide the direction in which the thoughts will take. So what role does the one have except as object of consciousness which conditions at various times, different states depending on what is at the root and also a host of other conditions? Thinking the way you do in fact appears arrogant, particularly when made to associate with the concept of rebirth / reincarnation.</span></p><p><span style="color: blue"></span></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Archived_member14, post: 164183, member: 586"] Ambarsaria ji, Ambarsaria: As Parma ji suggested I believe the dialog is getting stuck in the weeds of what is thought and what is thinking. It is kind of inappropriate and not helpful if we don't use common understanding of usage of some words. To help let us see if we agree about the key words repeated often. [COLOR="Blue"]Confused: With regard to the concepts I've been talking about, I have given some further explanation in my last response to Parma ji. I hope that is satisfactory, if not, please let me know. I will therefore now go straight to your other comments.[/COLOR] ===== Ambarsaria: Perhaps we can retrace where we started physically as a help to see how and where we are. 1. In the womb [COLOR="blue"]Confused: Sorry to interrupt, but I must question the reason why you choose this as a starting point. You know of course that I see conception / birth as result of karma. This means that the beginning is in fact unknown. But is it even important to trace things back to the beginning? I don't think so. Based on the characteristic of the experience now, the most we can know is either that it has a cause in the past or is cause for future arising of consciousness. But when it comes to what is involved in the arising / existence at that very moment, it will be seen as conditioned by a host of other realities. The imperative is therefore to develop a better understanding about the present moment reality. This prevents one from thinking in terms of a succession of events and starting points, which can only be speculative in nature. [/COLOR] ===== Ambarsaria: 2. Born Our own heart beat Hear beyond the embryonic fluid See beyond the embryonic fluid Touch beyond the inner body of mother Taste beyond the embryonic fluid Smell beyond the embryonic fluid [COLOR="blue"]Confused: I think by 'Born' here you are simply pointing to that which demarcates time within the womb and outside and not that life starts from here? But what is the point of referring to what might have taken place inside and outside of the womb? [/COLOR] ==== Ambarsaria: 3. Our brain wiring begins for the world outside of the womb and as of our senses [COLOR="blue"]Confused: Are you suggesting a particular and crucial role on the part of brain in one’s moment to moment experience? If so what would that be? [/COLOR] ==== Ambarsaria: 4. Thinking and thoughts develop and leave traces Thinking and thoughts continue to leave ever more traces [COLOR="blue"]Confused: Can you elaborate on this idea of “traces”?[/COLOR] === Ambarsaria: 5. We are where we are, *We as one being act as from, The history that we have lived to date [COLOR="blue"]Confused: By history, do you mean one, the different situations and reaction to those situations? Two, that which lies between the time one came out of the womb and the present? Regarding the first, I wonder if it is in fact reducible to such things as attachment, aversion, ignorance, conceit and so on on one hand, and wisdom, kindness, morality and so on on the other? And that these are accumulative in nature and remain as underlying tendencies? If so, then you must provide some explanation as to what might be the cause for these same at the beginning following conception and also when the child just came out of the womb, given that you do not believe in past lives? [/COLOR] === Ambarsaria: The experiences we have lived to date The thoughts that we have lived to date [COLOR="blue"]Confused: So it appears that in fact you do not associate history with the fundamental experiences which I pointed out above. So we have A) History, B) Experiences and C) Thoughts. I see only B. as having any import. A. is an abstraction. C. is irrelevant given that it is B. or the fundamental experiences which conditions the thoughts and accumulates as tendency. [/COLOR] ==== Ambarsaria: The conditioning that we have developed to date [COLOR="blue"]Confused: To condition and be conditioned is the nature and function of B. or fundamental experiences. Are you pointing to something else that exists apart from these experiences? What would that be?[/COLOR] ==== Ambarsaria: 6. Instances of consciousness and the like that rise and fall are only in the context and of note as per Items 4 and 5 above. [COLOR="blue"]Confused: Yes thinking is an instance of consciousness, but thoughts on the other hand are imagined, and this is what we should come to understand, namely the distinction between reality and concept. So while thinking as you do in 1, 2, and 3 for example, wisdom would know in fact that it is just that, namely *an instance of thinking / consciousness*. What else is there but an instance of consciousness (and the accompanying mental factor or a physical reality which appears now) at any given moment as potential object of understanding? In other words, how could anything other than what is present “now” act as basis for true knowledge? If it is not what is real now, would it not be simply concepts about this and that? And if the reality / concept distinction is not understood, would this not mean that concepts are mistaken for reality? [/COLOR] ==== Ambarsaria: 7. We die and we leave influences of parts of our 5 in the main with others and their equivalent 4, 5 and 6. [COLOR="blue"]Confused: You are imagining this and would do well to realize that this thinking is in fact the reality now. Just as the “other” is experienced by us only as a concept conditioned variously at different times by such realities as ignorance, attachment, aversion, kindness, respect and so on, so too, “we” are only a concept conceived of by the thinking consciousness that has arisen in the “other”. But if we believe that there is anything more than this including that we leave influence on others, this may well be due to the influences of ignorance, attachment, conceit and of wrong understanding. So better know these when they appear and are influencing the thinking, is it not? If not then we just increase more and more of these tendencies and anything else which follow.[/COLOR] === Ambarsaria: NOTE: In some other posts I have tried to explain this as partial rebirth of ourselves in others and theirs in us. A pseudo and partial incarnation if you may. Any comments. [COLOR="blue"]Confused: It takes particular set of conditions to remember anything at all. It is different in each case when remembering what was perceived at the time with ignorance etc., with kindness and so on and with wisdom. Each comes down to the person's own accumulated tendency and nothing to do with what the other person is. For example, a kind act by one person may be perceived with suspicion by the other. Indeed it is the case that even before there is any recognition of who the other person is, wholesome or unwholesome roots already decide the direction in which the thoughts will take. So what role does the one have except as object of consciousness which conditions at various times, different states depending on what is at the root and also a host of other conditions? Thinking the way you do in fact appears arrogant, particularly when made to associate with the concept of rebirth / reincarnation. [/COLOR] [/QUOTE]
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