☀️ JOIN SPN MOBILE
Forums
New posts
Guru Granth Sahib
Composition, Arrangement & Layout
ਜਪੁ | Jup
ਸੋ ਦਰੁ | So Dar
ਸੋਹਿਲਾ | Sohilaa
ਰਾਗੁ ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ | Raag Siree-Raag
Gurbani (14-53)
Ashtpadiyan (53-71)
Gurbani (71-74)
Pahre (74-78)
Chhant (78-81)
Vanjara (81-82)
Vaar Siri Raag (83-91)
Bhagat Bani (91-93)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਾਝ | Raag Maajh
Gurbani (94-109)
Ashtpadi (109)
Ashtpadiyan (110-129)
Ashtpadi (129-130)
Ashtpadiyan (130-133)
Bara Maha (133-136)
Din Raen (136-137)
Vaar Maajh Ki (137-150)
ਰਾਗੁ ਗਉੜੀ | Raag Gauree
Gurbani (151-185)
Quartets/Couplets (185-220)
Ashtpadiyan (220-234)
Karhalei (234-235)
Ashtpadiyan (235-242)
Chhant (242-249)
Baavan Akhari (250-262)
Sukhmani (262-296)
Thittee (296-300)
Gauree kii Vaar (300-323)
Gurbani (323-330)
Ashtpadiyan (330-340)
Baavan Akhari (340-343)
Thintteen (343-344)
Vaar Kabir (344-345)
Bhagat Bani (345-346)
ਰਾਗੁ ਆਸਾ | Raag Aasaa
Gurbani (347-348)
Chaupaday (348-364)
Panchpadde (364-365)
Kaafee (365-409)
Aasaavaree (409-411)
Ashtpadiyan (411-432)
Patee (432-435)
Chhant (435-462)
Vaar Aasaa (462-475)
Bhagat Bani (475-488)
ਰਾਗੁ ਗੂਜਰੀ | Raag Goojaree
Gurbani (489-503)
Ashtpadiyan (503-508)
Vaar Gujari (508-517)
Vaar Gujari (517-526)
ਰਾਗੁ ਦੇਵਗੰਧਾਰੀ | Raag Dayv-Gandhaaree
Gurbani (527-536)
ਰਾਗੁ ਬਿਹਾਗੜਾ | Raag Bihaagraa
Gurbani (537-556)
Chhant (538-548)
Vaar Bihaagraa (548-556)
ਰਾਗੁ ਵਡਹੰਸ | Raag Wadhans
Gurbani (557-564)
Ashtpadiyan (564-565)
Chhant (565-575)
Ghoriaan (575-578)
Alaahaniiaa (578-582)
Vaar Wadhans (582-594)
ਰਾਗੁ ਸੋਰਠਿ | Raag Sorath
Gurbani (595-634)
Asatpadhiya (634-642)
Vaar Sorath (642-659)
ਰਾਗੁ ਧਨਾਸਰੀ | Raag Dhanasaree
Gurbani (660-685)
Astpadhiya (685-687)
Chhant (687-691)
Bhagat Bani (691-695)
ਰਾਗੁ ਜੈਤਸਰੀ | Raag Jaitsree
Gurbani (696-703)
Chhant (703-705)
Vaar Jaitsaree (705-710)
Bhagat Bani (710)
ਰਾਗੁ ਟੋਡੀ | Raag Todee
ਰਾਗੁ ਬੈਰਾੜੀ | Raag Bairaaree
ਰਾਗੁ ਤਿਲੰਗ | Raag Tilang
Gurbani (721-727)
Bhagat Bani (727)
ਰਾਗੁ ਸੂਹੀ | Raag Suhi
Gurbani (728-750)
Ashtpadiyan (750-761)
Kaafee (761-762)
Suchajee (762)
Gunvantee (763)
Chhant (763-785)
Vaar Soohee (785-792)
Bhagat Bani (792-794)
ਰਾਗੁ ਬਿਲਾਵਲੁ | Raag Bilaaval
Gurbani (795-831)
Ashtpadiyan (831-838)
Thitteen (838-840)
Vaar Sat (841-843)
Chhant (843-848)
Vaar Bilaaval (849-855)
Bhagat Bani (855-858)
ਰਾਗੁ ਗੋਂਡ | Raag Gond
Gurbani (859-869)
Ashtpadiyan (869)
Bhagat Bani (870-875)
ਰਾਗੁ ਰਾਮਕਲੀ | Raag Ramkalee
Ashtpadiyan (902-916)
Gurbani (876-902)
Anand (917-922)
Sadd (923-924)
Chhant (924-929)
Dakhnee (929-938)
Sidh Gosat (938-946)
Vaar Ramkalee (947-968)
ਰਾਗੁ ਨਟ ਨਾਰਾਇਨ | Raag Nat Narayan
Gurbani (975-980)
Ashtpadiyan (980-983)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਾਲੀ ਗਉੜਾ | Raag Maalee Gauraa
Gurbani (984-988)
Bhagat Bani (988)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਾਰੂ | Raag Maaroo
Gurbani (889-1008)
Ashtpadiyan (1008-1014)
Kaafee (1014-1016)
Ashtpadiyan (1016-1019)
Anjulian (1019-1020)
Solhe (1020-1033)
Dakhni (1033-1043)
ਰਾਗੁ ਤੁਖਾਰੀ | Raag Tukhaari
Bara Maha (1107-1110)
Chhant (1110-1117)
ਰਾਗੁ ਕੇਦਾਰਾ | Raag Kedara
Gurbani (1118-1123)
Bhagat Bani (1123-1124)
ਰਾਗੁ ਭੈਰਉ | Raag Bhairo
Gurbani (1125-1152)
Partaal (1153)
Ashtpadiyan (1153-1167)
ਰਾਗੁ ਬਸੰਤੁ | Raag Basant
Gurbani (1168-1187)
Ashtpadiyan (1187-1193)
Vaar Basant (1193-1196)
ਰਾਗੁ ਸਾਰਗ | Raag Saarag
Gurbani (1197-1200)
Partaal (1200-1231)
Ashtpadiyan (1232-1236)
Chhant (1236-1237)
Vaar Saarang (1237-1253)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਲਾਰ | Raag Malaar
Gurbani (1254-1293)
Partaal (1265-1273)
Ashtpadiyan (1273-1278)
Chhant (1278)
Vaar Malaar (1278-91)
Bhagat Bani (1292-93)
ਰਾਗੁ ਕਾਨੜਾ | Raag Kaanraa
Gurbani (1294-96)
Partaal (1296-1318)
Ashtpadiyan (1308-1312)
Chhant (1312)
Vaar Kaanraa
Bhagat Bani (1318)
ਰਾਗੁ ਕਲਿਆਨ | Raag Kalyaan
Gurbani (1319-23)
Ashtpadiyan (1323-26)
ਰਾਗੁ ਪ੍ਰਭਾਤੀ | Raag Prabhaatee
Gurbani (1327-1341)
Ashtpadiyan (1342-51)
ਰਾਗੁ ਜੈਜਾਵੰਤੀ | Raag Jaijaiwanti
Gurbani (1352-53)
Salok | Gatha | Phunahe | Chaubole | Swayiye
Sehskritee Mahala 1
Sehskritee Mahala 5
Gaathaa Mahala 5
Phunhay Mahala 5
Chaubolae Mahala 5
Shaloks Bhagat Kabir
Shaloks Sheikh Farid
Swaiyyae Mahala 5
Swaiyyae in Praise of Gurus
Shaloks in Addition To Vaars
Shalok Ninth Mehl
Mundavanee Mehl 5
ਰਾਗ ਮਾਲਾ, Raag Maalaa
What's new
New posts
New media
New media comments
New resources
Latest activity
Videos
New media
New comments
Library
Latest reviews
Donate
Log in
Register
What's new
New posts
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Welcome to all New Sikh Philosophy Network Forums!
Explore Sikh Sikhi Sikhism...
Sign up
Log in
Discussions
Questions & Answers
The God Element
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Archived_member14" data-source="post: 143794" data-attributes="member: 586"><p>Kanwaljit ji,</p><p></p><p></p><p>==</p><p><snip></p><p>Kj:</p><p>Well said. The experience is momentary but the lesson learnt lasts till the end of life.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Con: Thanks. But I wonder if you took into account the part about the need for development of wisdom over a long period of time? ;-)</p><p></p><p>=======</p><p></p><p><snip></p><p></p><p>Kj:</p><p>I am not aware of a separate plane of conscience from the plane of existence. Maybe I understand the concept, but can't put it in words. And wisdom leads to good deeds. An unwise person will not have many good deeds.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Con: Yes, wisdom leads to good deeds. An unwise person may have accumulated the tendency to good deeds such that it can arise often. However, without wisdom, this tendency will not get any stronger but in fact diminish. </p><p></p><p>======</p><p><snip></p><p>Kj:</p><p>See there is this common understanding of difference between good and bad states. It is common to all. </p><p></p><p></p><p>Con: I once suggested that people who are attracted to religion do so initially, because of the teachings about the value of morality, kindness, compassion, giving, honesty and other kinds of good. Indeed one of my intentions was to encourage people here to consider more about this aspect of their religion while I try to overlook the other ideas that I do not agree with. This was fine in theory, but now I realize that it is not so in practice.</p><p></p><p>Some of the reasons for this include the fact that this was an undertaking for which I’m not equipped enough. The idea to address this particular aspect while keeping separate certain core ideas is not practical, although had I known that the Sikh understanding about Karma is what I now see, I’d probably not even have tried. But allow me to highlight one particular difference in understanding.</p><p></p><p>The idea of encouraging good and discouraging evil, in the case of certain other religions, is based on the understanding about the nature and value of good states and harm in bad ones, beginning with attachment to sense objects. While Buddhism does encourage all kinds of good, its aim however is to understand all states, be it good, bad or indeterminate, and also all matter, as impermanent, insubstantial and non-self. In other words, while other religions “understand the value” of say, morality, Buddhism “sees it for what it is”. </p><p></p><p>And this understanding would include seeing them as elements, as aggregates, as base, as cause (karma), resultants or functional, as wholesome, unwholesome or indeterminate and more. One also comes to know besides the characteristics and manifestation of each reality, their functions and proximate cause. However from the very beginning, understanding the difference between concept and reality is necessary if further development is to happen.</p><p></p><p>So while other religions, despite seeing the value of good and harm of evil, end up ‘identifying’ with their experiences as me, mine and I, Buddhism does not see any ‘self’ or ‘soul‘ anywhere, but only impersonal elements.</p><p></p><p>I hope that you now see the difference Kj?</p><p></p><p>=====</p><p>Kj:</p><p>It is like some inexplainable phenomenon which exists in the world. You can say good is good because it is. But it's hard to explain this to others.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Con: Not at all. I say this because we can directly know it. You are unnecessarily making it into something mysterious.</p><p></p><p>The fact is that you and I make reference to moral states all day and this is because they are very much real. Kindness is a state of mind, ill-will is a state of mind, and similarly moral restraint is a state of mind. Each of these has particular characteristic, function and cause. They can be referred to and communicated to others precisely because everyone experiences them, except that there is no understanding involved. And this is why we need to at least learn about them from those who do understand. And why failing this we end up with our own misleading theories.</p><p></p><p>========</p><p><snip></p><p>KjS: My friend, if there is anything which binds all the people, countries, planets, galaxies and universes, multiverses, it is Truth.</p><p></p><p>Quote:Cf: You mean as in Gaddhafi to his people or the Al Queda to the U.S. government? ;-) </p><p></p><p></p><p>Kj:</p><p>Yes, the Truth binding the Libyans is that they have been quiet for so long, and so they seek democracy by shouting. And the Truth is that CIA trained Al Qaeda to route the Russians out.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Con: You mean anything that we can think of about a situation can be referred to as reflecting some underlying truth?</p><p></p><p>======</p><p>Quote:KjS: Truth has no date of birth, Truth will never die. Truth has prevailed all creation and destruction. Truth makes people happy when they speak the Truth, Truth makes them doubt their actions when they go against it. If a Buddhist believes in Truth then how is a Buddhist different from a Sikh? Truth is the common goal in all human religions.</p><p></p><p>Quote:Cf: At one time I thought that it was good that some people set out on the “quest for truth”. However now I am not impressed by the idea anymore. Now I consider only understanding itself, no matter what level, to be aimed at the Truth. In other words, only if one has had an inkling of what the Truth is, can one make any correct statement with regard to it. All other instances of referring to the concept must in fact be rooted in ignorance and craving, and this can never lead to the good. </p><p></p><p></p><p>Kj:</p><p>Don't mind my use of words. But it is common saying that wisdom which is not practiced doesn't become knowledge. If you understand Truth but don't practice it in life fully (where quest for Truth is Metaphor) then you will lose your wisdom of Truth (it will fade away).</p><p></p><p></p><p>Con: One starts off ignorant about the Truth and then one hears about it. Most people do not even appreciate it but for those who do; it starts with intellectual understanding and reflective acceptance. This *is* a level of understanding and must accumulate before it can become ‘practice’. If one thinks to practice when the understanding at the intellectual level is absent or weak, one can be sure that the driving force must be ignorance and craving.</p><p></p><p>What do you mean by practice Kj?</p><p></p><p>=====</p><p>Kj:</p><p></p><p>In Sikhism it is said, Truth is High, Higher still is Truthful Living. Our Guru says a person who lives in Truth, is a True Divine being.</p><p></p><p>Con: I would say, just develop understanding and allow it to lead the way. Be wary of any ambition with regard to practice and results, because this would surely take you in the wrong direction.</p><p></p><p>=========</p><p>Quote:KjS: Truth is a natural phenomenon. If a meteor strikes Earth, then the crater stays there. As a mark of Truth, that yes a meteor did strike at that place. If some planet gets destroyed, then there are asteriods sprewn over in space. Another mark of Truth. A son has DNA of both Father and Mother, that is his mark of Truth for being a loving son.</p><p></p><p>Quote:Cf: While observing a meteor, there are the experience through the five senses and the mind, without which the idea of ‘meteor’ wouldn’t even be conceived of. In the absence of any understanding about these, one is left to work only with shadows / concepts. If craving arises and one is not aware of this, all perceptions and subsequent proliferations follow the dictates of ignorance and this same craving. If the knowledge derived from such ignorance is mistaken for Truth, this is a case of being deluded. </p><p></p><p>When matter contacts another matter, this is in accordance with the ‘caloric order’ and is a Truth. But do we know this? Do we not instead conceive of the ideas, meteor, earth and the activity of striking, and build a story around this all the while driven by ignorance and attachment ? Would the qualifying as Truth such a case not then be meaningless? </p><p></p><p></p><p>Kj:</p><p>There are 2 things here. One is that things observed by the 5 senses and the mind are not True but ignorance. It may be, but until the Truth is fully revealed/understood by me, I cannot call the former ignorance. It is like till you don't get one thing in hand, you don't let go of other. </p><p></p><p></p><p>Con: Like I said above, one hears about the Truth, accepts it and proceeds from there. And as explained, the Truth according to Buddhism is just these experiences through the five senses and the mind and their objects (excepting concepts / ideas) when known for what they are. After having made the reality vs. concept distinction, we can be sure that if we do not have any awareness of say, visible object and only the perception of people and things, that there must indeed be ignorance there. Or, since we accept that each reality must have a characteristic, if we find ourselves thinking for example, that objects and situations perceived are real, then not only is there ignorance, but wrong understanding as well.</p><p></p><p>This is intellectual understanding, and is how it must be for every beginner. There is much to be developed (over lifetimes) at this level itself before little by little, ‘practice’ arises and develops. So you don’t actually need to have great wisdom before you can let go, indeed there must be an element of detachment from the very beginning of development, including at the level of intellectual understanding. Only this happens with understanding and is not something we can decide to ‘do’ or make happen. </p><p></p><p>=======</p><p>Kj:</p><p>In any case, attachment of any sort is not good. Secondly I was just giving an example of when matter contacts matter and it leads to changes in both of them.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Con: Please give me an example of matter. I am quite sure our understanding of what this is, is quite different.</p><p></p><p>Thanks for engaging me in this discussion.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Archived_member14, post: 143794, member: 586"] Kanwaljit ji, == <snip> Kj: Well said. The experience is momentary but the lesson learnt lasts till the end of life. Con: Thanks. But I wonder if you took into account the part about the need for development of wisdom over a long period of time? ;-) ======= <snip> Kj: I am not aware of a separate plane of conscience from the plane of existence. Maybe I understand the concept, but can't put it in words. And wisdom leads to good deeds. An unwise person will not have many good deeds. Con: Yes, wisdom leads to good deeds. An unwise person may have accumulated the tendency to good deeds such that it can arise often. However, without wisdom, this tendency will not get any stronger but in fact diminish. ====== <snip> Kj: See there is this common understanding of difference between good and bad states. It is common to all. Con: I once suggested that people who are attracted to religion do so initially, because of the teachings about the value of morality, kindness, compassion, giving, honesty and other kinds of good. Indeed one of my intentions was to encourage people here to consider more about this aspect of their religion while I try to overlook the other ideas that I do not agree with. This was fine in theory, but now I realize that it is not so in practice. Some of the reasons for this include the fact that this was an undertaking for which I’m not equipped enough. The idea to address this particular aspect while keeping separate certain core ideas is not practical, although had I known that the Sikh understanding about Karma is what I now see, I’d probably not even have tried. But allow me to highlight one particular difference in understanding. The idea of encouraging good and discouraging evil, in the case of certain other religions, is based on the understanding about the nature and value of good states and harm in bad ones, beginning with attachment to sense objects. While Buddhism does encourage all kinds of good, its aim however is to understand all states, be it good, bad or indeterminate, and also all matter, as impermanent, insubstantial and non-self. In other words, while other religions “understand the value” of say, morality, Buddhism “sees it for what it is”. And this understanding would include seeing them as elements, as aggregates, as base, as cause (karma), resultants or functional, as wholesome, unwholesome or indeterminate and more. One also comes to know besides the characteristics and manifestation of each reality, their functions and proximate cause. However from the very beginning, understanding the difference between concept and reality is necessary if further development is to happen. So while other religions, despite seeing the value of good and harm of evil, end up ‘identifying’ with their experiences as me, mine and I, Buddhism does not see any ‘self’ or ‘soul‘ anywhere, but only impersonal elements. I hope that you now see the difference Kj? ===== Kj: It is like some inexplainable phenomenon which exists in the world. You can say good is good because it is. But it's hard to explain this to others. Con: Not at all. I say this because we can directly know it. You are unnecessarily making it into something mysterious. The fact is that you and I make reference to moral states all day and this is because they are very much real. Kindness is a state of mind, ill-will is a state of mind, and similarly moral restraint is a state of mind. Each of these has particular characteristic, function and cause. They can be referred to and communicated to others precisely because everyone experiences them, except that there is no understanding involved. And this is why we need to at least learn about them from those who do understand. And why failing this we end up with our own misleading theories. ======== <snip> KjS: My friend, if there is anything which binds all the people, countries, planets, galaxies and universes, multiverses, it is Truth. Quote:Cf: You mean as in Gaddhafi to his people or the Al Queda to the U.S. government? ;-) Kj: Yes, the Truth binding the Libyans is that they have been quiet for so long, and so they seek democracy by shouting. And the Truth is that CIA trained Al Qaeda to route the Russians out. Con: You mean anything that we can think of about a situation can be referred to as reflecting some underlying truth? ====== Quote:KjS: Truth has no date of birth, Truth will never die. Truth has prevailed all creation and destruction. Truth makes people happy when they speak the Truth, Truth makes them doubt their actions when they go against it. If a Buddhist believes in Truth then how is a Buddhist different from a Sikh? Truth is the common goal in all human religions. Quote:Cf: At one time I thought that it was good that some people set out on the “quest for truth”. However now I am not impressed by the idea anymore. Now I consider only understanding itself, no matter what level, to be aimed at the Truth. In other words, only if one has had an inkling of what the Truth is, can one make any correct statement with regard to it. All other instances of referring to the concept must in fact be rooted in ignorance and craving, and this can never lead to the good. Kj: Don't mind my use of words. But it is common saying that wisdom which is not practiced doesn't become knowledge. If you understand Truth but don't practice it in life fully (where quest for Truth is Metaphor) then you will lose your wisdom of Truth (it will fade away). Con: One starts off ignorant about the Truth and then one hears about it. Most people do not even appreciate it but for those who do; it starts with intellectual understanding and reflective acceptance. This *is* a level of understanding and must accumulate before it can become ‘practice’. If one thinks to practice when the understanding at the intellectual level is absent or weak, one can be sure that the driving force must be ignorance and craving. What do you mean by practice Kj? ===== Kj: In Sikhism it is said, Truth is High, Higher still is Truthful Living. Our Guru says a person who lives in Truth, is a True Divine being. Con: I would say, just develop understanding and allow it to lead the way. Be wary of any ambition with regard to practice and results, because this would surely take you in the wrong direction. ========= Quote:KjS: Truth is a natural phenomenon. If a meteor strikes Earth, then the crater stays there. As a mark of Truth, that yes a meteor did strike at that place. If some planet gets destroyed, then there are asteriods sprewn over in space. Another mark of Truth. A son has DNA of both Father and Mother, that is his mark of Truth for being a loving son. Quote:Cf: While observing a meteor, there are the experience through the five senses and the mind, without which the idea of ‘meteor’ wouldn’t even be conceived of. In the absence of any understanding about these, one is left to work only with shadows / concepts. If craving arises and one is not aware of this, all perceptions and subsequent proliferations follow the dictates of ignorance and this same craving. If the knowledge derived from such ignorance is mistaken for Truth, this is a case of being deluded. When matter contacts another matter, this is in accordance with the ‘caloric order’ and is a Truth. But do we know this? Do we not instead conceive of the ideas, meteor, earth and the activity of striking, and build a story around this all the while driven by ignorance and attachment ? Would the qualifying as Truth such a case not then be meaningless? Kj: There are 2 things here. One is that things observed by the 5 senses and the mind are not True but ignorance. It may be, but until the Truth is fully revealed/understood by me, I cannot call the former ignorance. It is like till you don't get one thing in hand, you don't let go of other. Con: Like I said above, one hears about the Truth, accepts it and proceeds from there. And as explained, the Truth according to Buddhism is just these experiences through the five senses and the mind and their objects (excepting concepts / ideas) when known for what they are. After having made the reality vs. concept distinction, we can be sure that if we do not have any awareness of say, visible object and only the perception of people and things, that there must indeed be ignorance there. Or, since we accept that each reality must have a characteristic, if we find ourselves thinking for example, that objects and situations perceived are real, then not only is there ignorance, but wrong understanding as well. This is intellectual understanding, and is how it must be for every beginner. There is much to be developed (over lifetimes) at this level itself before little by little, ‘practice’ arises and develops. So you don’t actually need to have great wisdom before you can let go, indeed there must be an element of detachment from the very beginning of development, including at the level of intellectual understanding. Only this happens with understanding and is not something we can decide to ‘do’ or make happen. ======= Kj: In any case, attachment of any sort is not good. Secondly I was just giving an example of when matter contacts matter and it leads to changes in both of them. Con: Please give me an example of matter. I am quite sure our understanding of what this is, is quite different. Thanks for engaging me in this discussion. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Discussions
Questions & Answers
The God Element
This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
Accept
Learn more…
Top