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ਸੋ ਦਰੁ | So Dar
ਸੋਹਿਲਾ | Sohilaa
ਰਾਗੁ ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ | Raag Siree-Raag
Gurbani (14-53)
Ashtpadiyan (53-71)
Gurbani (71-74)
Pahre (74-78)
Chhant (78-81)
Vanjara (81-82)
Vaar Siri Raag (83-91)
Bhagat Bani (91-93)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਾਝ | Raag Maajh
Gurbani (94-109)
Ashtpadi (109)
Ashtpadiyan (110-129)
Ashtpadi (129-130)
Ashtpadiyan (130-133)
Bara Maha (133-136)
Din Raen (136-137)
Vaar Maajh Ki (137-150)
ਰਾਗੁ ਗਉੜੀ | Raag Gauree
Gurbani (151-185)
Quartets/Couplets (185-220)
Ashtpadiyan (220-234)
Karhalei (234-235)
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Sukhmani (262-296)
Thittee (296-300)
Gauree kii Vaar (300-323)
Gurbani (323-330)
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Baavan Akhari (340-343)
Thintteen (343-344)
Vaar Kabir (344-345)
Bhagat Bani (345-346)
ਰਾਗੁ ਆਸਾ | Raag Aasaa
Gurbani (347-348)
Chaupaday (348-364)
Panchpadde (364-365)
Kaafee (365-409)
Aasaavaree (409-411)
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Patee (432-435)
Chhant (435-462)
Vaar Aasaa (462-475)
Bhagat Bani (475-488)
ਰਾਗੁ ਗੂਜਰੀ | Raag Goojaree
Gurbani (489-503)
Ashtpadiyan (503-508)
Vaar Gujari (508-517)
Vaar Gujari (517-526)
ਰਾਗੁ ਦੇਵਗੰਧਾਰੀ | Raag Dayv-Gandhaaree
Gurbani (527-536)
ਰਾਗੁ ਬਿਹਾਗੜਾ | Raag Bihaagraa
Gurbani (537-556)
Chhant (538-548)
Vaar Bihaagraa (548-556)
ਰਾਗੁ ਵਡਹੰਸ | Raag Wadhans
Gurbani (557-564)
Ashtpadiyan (564-565)
Chhant (565-575)
Ghoriaan (575-578)
Alaahaniiaa (578-582)
Vaar Wadhans (582-594)
ਰਾਗੁ ਸੋਰਠਿ | Raag Sorath
Gurbani (595-634)
Asatpadhiya (634-642)
Vaar Sorath (642-659)
ਰਾਗੁ ਧਨਾਸਰੀ | Raag Dhanasaree
Gurbani (660-685)
Astpadhiya (685-687)
Chhant (687-691)
Bhagat Bani (691-695)
ਰਾਗੁ ਜੈਤਸਰੀ | Raag Jaitsree
Gurbani (696-703)
Chhant (703-705)
Vaar Jaitsaree (705-710)
Bhagat Bani (710)
ਰਾਗੁ ਟੋਡੀ | Raag Todee
ਰਾਗੁ ਬੈਰਾੜੀ | Raag Bairaaree
ਰਾਗੁ ਤਿਲੰਗ | Raag Tilang
Gurbani (721-727)
Bhagat Bani (727)
ਰਾਗੁ ਸੂਹੀ | Raag Suhi
Gurbani (728-750)
Ashtpadiyan (750-761)
Kaafee (761-762)
Suchajee (762)
Gunvantee (763)
Chhant (763-785)
Vaar Soohee (785-792)
Bhagat Bani (792-794)
ਰਾਗੁ ਬਿਲਾਵਲੁ | Raag Bilaaval
Gurbani (795-831)
Ashtpadiyan (831-838)
Thitteen (838-840)
Vaar Sat (841-843)
Chhant (843-848)
Vaar Bilaaval (849-855)
Bhagat Bani (855-858)
ਰਾਗੁ ਗੋਂਡ | Raag Gond
Gurbani (859-869)
Ashtpadiyan (869)
Bhagat Bani (870-875)
ਰਾਗੁ ਰਾਮਕਲੀ | Raag Ramkalee
Ashtpadiyan (902-916)
Gurbani (876-902)
Anand (917-922)
Sadd (923-924)
Chhant (924-929)
Dakhnee (929-938)
Sidh Gosat (938-946)
Vaar Ramkalee (947-968)
ਰਾਗੁ ਨਟ ਨਾਰਾਇਨ | Raag Nat Narayan
Gurbani (975-980)
Ashtpadiyan (980-983)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਾਲੀ ਗਉੜਾ | Raag Maalee Gauraa
Gurbani (984-988)
Bhagat Bani (988)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਾਰੂ | Raag Maaroo
Gurbani (889-1008)
Ashtpadiyan (1008-1014)
Kaafee (1014-1016)
Ashtpadiyan (1016-1019)
Anjulian (1019-1020)
Solhe (1020-1033)
Dakhni (1033-1043)
ਰਾਗੁ ਤੁਖਾਰੀ | Raag Tukhaari
Bara Maha (1107-1110)
Chhant (1110-1117)
ਰਾਗੁ ਕੇਦਾਰਾ | Raag Kedara
Gurbani (1118-1123)
Bhagat Bani (1123-1124)
ਰਾਗੁ ਭੈਰਉ | Raag Bhairo
Gurbani (1125-1152)
Partaal (1153)
Ashtpadiyan (1153-1167)
ਰਾਗੁ ਬਸੰਤੁ | Raag Basant
Gurbani (1168-1187)
Ashtpadiyan (1187-1193)
Vaar Basant (1193-1196)
ਰਾਗੁ ਸਾਰਗ | Raag Saarag
Gurbani (1197-1200)
Partaal (1200-1231)
Ashtpadiyan (1232-1236)
Chhant (1236-1237)
Vaar Saarang (1237-1253)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਲਾਰ | Raag Malaar
Gurbani (1254-1293)
Partaal (1265-1273)
Ashtpadiyan (1273-1278)
Chhant (1278)
Vaar Malaar (1278-91)
Bhagat Bani (1292-93)
ਰਾਗੁ ਕਾਨੜਾ | Raag Kaanraa
Gurbani (1294-96)
Partaal (1296-1318)
Ashtpadiyan (1308-1312)
Chhant (1312)
Vaar Kaanraa
Bhagat Bani (1318)
ਰਾਗੁ ਕਲਿਆਨ | Raag Kalyaan
Gurbani (1319-23)
Ashtpadiyan (1323-26)
ਰਾਗੁ ਪ੍ਰਭਾਤੀ | Raag Prabhaatee
Gurbani (1327-1341)
Ashtpadiyan (1342-51)
ਰਾਗੁ ਜੈਜਾਵੰਤੀ | Raag Jaijaiwanti
Gurbani (1352-53)
Salok | Gatha | Phunahe | Chaubole | Swayiye
Sehskritee Mahala 1
Sehskritee Mahala 5
Gaathaa Mahala 5
Phunhay Mahala 5
Chaubolae Mahala 5
Shaloks Bhagat Kabir
Shaloks Sheikh Farid
Swaiyyae Mahala 5
Swaiyyae in Praise of Gurus
Shaloks in Addition To Vaars
Shalok Ninth Mehl
Mundavanee Mehl 5
ਰਾਗ ਮਾਲਾ, Raag Maalaa
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Sikhism Is Not The Same As Hinduism, Islam Or Christianity Etc
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<blockquote data-quote="Harjas Kaur Khalsa" data-source="post: 84617" data-attributes="member: 2125"><p>Does it occur to you that we are on polar opposite sides of an opinion and as such, I don't accept your interpretation as correct, while you don't accept my interpretation as correct. But when I present sanatana views, somehow you feel justified in abusing it. As you claim:</p><p></p><p><em><span style="color: DarkRed">Above is your quote, does it occur you that it is not like that portion of Veda where exploitation of Brahamin is in high gear, it is said” if you give this to Brahamin, you will get this, if you do this, your ancestors will get this., read Shadong Upnished, lesson 6, Khand 9 and 15. also Manu smiriti Slok 123, 125 Adhiaae10. You will see how humanity is degraded</span></em></p><p>If you were honest about it, you would acknowledge that Manu Smriti isn't accepted by all schools of Hinduism. Neither are Shiva Sutras. So talking about something you find personally obnoxious in those scriptures says nothing about sanatana Dharma as a whole. I could actuallly talk in great detail about human sacrifices and some very esoteric and complex things... but I can barely discuss common Vaishnav elements in Gurbani teachings without incredible opposition. Suffice to say, sanatana Dharma is very ancient and very broad, and deals in some elements with forces of a more negative nature. But this is not to say Sanatana Dharma as a religious philosophy is negative. It's completely positive. But if you want to look at tantric practices and tantrang mantrang and jado tuna, then yes, you will be looking at some strange things.</p><p></p><p>I find it astounding that your entire focus is on negativity, even when I quoted dozens of tuuks of Gurbani which are positive and speak of the praise of God, of the Naam which is praised in Hindu scriptures. So my point was to counterbalance this hateful negativistic opinion which keeps condemning Hindu spirituality as something evil, worthless and obscene and "disgusting." Even on these forums is an unmoderated post where someone called Nirmala Devi a Bi----, because he resented her sanatan Sikhism. So this huge hostility and one-sided discrimination is simply unacceptable, and the reason for my posting on these issues. Let's be fair. You get angry because I point out the Vaishnavism which I honestly perceive in Gurbani, and count it a matter of profound disrespect and insult... not because of what was said, but because of the tremendous hatred for Hinduism pervasive in Sikh communities. Yet, comments that claim and beat the drums loudly that ALL Hindu spirituality is based on scriptures which are worthless, obscene, evil and degrading to humanity, and disgusting... you don't see that as injustice? You don't see that as imbalance? You don't see that as unfairness? That is really pathetic. And then you conclude I have no right to ask for fairness because I degrade Sikhi by equating Guru Nanak Dev Ji's message with Vaishnavism, which I also perceive as a beautiful spiritual message. So all you are saying is, you want the right to abuse the sanatan message.</p><p></p><p>You know, all I can say is, I feel sorry for you. Say whatever you want. It is my opinion that when Gurbani says Guru is the wisdom of the Vedas, that means the wisdom of the Vedas has been incorporated into Gurubani. And I respect that Guruji's message includes sanatan elements simply from that basis, without discrimination which condemns sanatana Dharma. When I read the Gurbani that you cite, including vaaran of Bhai Gurdas Ji, I don't ignore it at all. I simply don't agree with your opinion about what it says. I do agree that according to spiritual teachings and ultimate spiritual nature, there is no caste discrimination. But realistically, socially, Sikhs are just as caste conscious as Hindus. So why make the artificial divide that Sikhism rejects the caste system, and then fail to explain why there is so much caste discrimination in Sikhism?</p><p></p><p>And the fact of the matter is, if you look at the history of Sikhism, casteism was never NOT a part of it. Even when the Jatts converted en masse under the leadership of Banda Singh Bahadur Ji, Jatts NEVER lost their caste identity or kinship ties. Even the Sikh Misls were identified and known by caste. Even the Gurus themselves were identified and known by caste. So, in analyzing WHY there is this HUGE discrepancy between assertions which claim Guru REJECTED the caste system, and why the caste system is so historically pervasive in Sikhism, it isn't just BAD Sikhs, but among the most influential, Generals, and even Maharaja Ranjit Singh, every Rajput and Khatri, Saini and Jatt knows his caste history. And it is my interpretation that Gurbani DID NOT reject caste system outright, acknowledging that caste varna system is the Will of the God. HOWEVER, clearly asserting spiritual equality and brotherhood in the teachings, where a low caste who is a Gurmukh, is equal to a brahmin, and a brahmin who is corrupted is equal to a Shudra.</p><p></p><p>I do not see how dozens of tuuks and pauris in Gurbani, PLUS the historical pattern and evidence for continuation of pervasive caste system in Sikhism is overshadowed by Bhai Gurdas Ji saying to Guru the 4 castes became one. This is entirely correct as Khalsa was a military Order, just like the Vaishnava and Shaivite Nath military Acharas which also admitted all castes to their ranks. But outside the battlefield, caste system was still continued. I don't even say this is right or wrong. I am looking at the history, looking at the Gurbani. This issue cannot be answered simplistically with one or two tuuks and vaars. It's a complex issue veer ji. And I did not start the caste system or praise injustices, or encourage Sikhs to become part of this and that. Be fair to the debate. I did not create this history, but this history DOES EXIST. And all the idealism fails to explain WHY, at the highest and most influential levels of Sikh society does caste system persist. WHY, extending beyond the rularship of Maharaja Ranjit Singh does caste system exist during the "supposedly Tat Khalsa" Sikh Misl period? And WHY does EVERY written historical record of Sikhs INCLUDE identification by caste?</p><p></p><p>No one has yet answered WHY Gurbani itself identifies Guru Ramdas Ji by caste surname. Simply quoting a vaar of Bhai Gurdas does not remove this tuuk from Gurbani, and it has yet to be adequately explained veer ji. I don't say you know the answer. Even I don't know the answer. But the weight of the historical evidence of keeping caste identification throughout Sikh history is telling, very telling. It cannot be ignored.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Not only you, but several who have commented do so in most disagreeable and abusive terms to describe Hindu religion and corruption of Hindu people. So here you are saying you have the right to beat the drum loudly to expose the faults, yet you cry about any talk regarding Sikh injustice, Sikh corruption, Sikh hypocrisy, as hurting the sentiments of Sikhs and disrespecting Sikhs.</p><p></p><p>The only point, ALL human beings are corrupted. Being a Hindu is not an automatic designation of the WORST of Hinduism, any more than being a Sikh is the GREATEST most SPIRITUAL attainment. Let's be reasonable. You want to beat the drums loudly, and here we are discussing Vaishnavism, and you are asking me to read Manu Smritis and Shiva sutras. To what purpose? Majority of Vaishnav reform rejected those hundreds of years ago.</p><p></p><p>You know veer ji, ancient Hebrews also had animal sacrifice. And this became interpreted within Christianity as special puja of the human sacrifice of Jesus. Yet, whenever I have debated with Christians, I do not go on about how anciently the Jewish scriptures say sacrifice animals. WHY? Because it's not relevant to today's practice of Christianity.</p><p></p><p>Gurbani says:</p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue">ਬੇਦ ਕਤੇਬ ਕਹਹੁ ਮਤ ਝੂਠੇ ਝੂਠਾ ਜੋ ਨ ਬਿਚਾਰੈ ॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue">baedh kathaeb kehahu math jhoothae jhoothaa jo n bichaarai ||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue">Do not say that the Vedas, the Bible and the Koran are false. Those who do not contemplate them are false.</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue">~SGGS Ji p. 1350</span></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple">ਆਪੇ ਸਾਸਤੁ ਆਪੇ ਬੇਦੁ ॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple">aapae saasath aapae baedh ||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple">He Himself is the Shaastras, and He Himself is the Vedas.</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple"></span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple">ਆਪੇ ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਜਾਣੈ ਭੇਦੁ ॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple">aapae ghatt ghatt jaanai bhaedh ||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple">He knows the secrets of each and every heart. </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple"></span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple">ਜੋਤਿ ਸਰੂਪ ਜਾ ਕੀ ਸਭ ਵਥੁ ॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple">joth saroop jaa kee sabh vathh ||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple">He is the Embodiment of Light; all beings belong to Him.</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple">~SGGS Ji p. 1150</span></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Green">ਜੂਠਿ ਨ ਰਾਗਂ*ੀ ਜੂਠਿ ਨ ਵੇਦਂ*ੀ ॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Green">jooth n raaganaee jooth n vaedhanaee ||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Green">Impurity does not come from music; impurity does not come from the Vedas.</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Green">~SGGS Ji p. 1240</span></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Teal">ਆਪੇ ਵੇਦ ਪੁਰਾਣ ਸਭਿ ਸਾਸਤ ਆਪਿ ਕਥੈ ਆਪਿ ਭੀਜੈ ॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Teal">aapae vaedh puraan sabh saasath aap kathhai aap bheejai ||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Teal">He Himself is the Vedas, the Puraanas and all the Shaastras; He Himself chants them, and He Himself is pleased.</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Teal"></span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Teal">ਆਪੇ ਹੀ ਬਹਿ ਪੂਜੇ ਕਰਤਾ ਆਪਿ ਪਰਪੰਚੁ ਕਰੀਜੈ ॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Teal">aapae hee behi poojae karathaa aap parapanch kareejai ||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Teal">He Himself sits down to worship, and He Himself creates the world.</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Teal"></span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Teal">ਆਪਿ ਪਰਵਿਰਤਿ ਆਪਿ ਨਿਰਵਿਰਤੀ ਆਪੇ ਅਕਥੁ ਕਥੀਜੈ ॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Teal">aap paravirath aap niravirathee aapae akathh kathheejai ||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Teal">He Himself is a householder, and He Himself is a renunciate; He Himself utters the Unutterable.</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Teal"></span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Teal">ਆਪੇ ਪੁੰਨੁ ਸਭੁ ਆਪਿ ਕਰਾਏ ਆਪਿ ਅਲਿਪਤੁ ਵਰਤੀਜੈ ॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Teal">aapae punn sabh aap karaaeae aap alipath varatheejai ||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Teal">He Himself is all goodness, and He Himself causes us to act; He Himself remains detached.</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Teal">~SGGS Ji p. 551</span></p><p></p><p></p><p>So how can you persist in saying:</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>You are condemning what Gurbani says the God Himself has brought into being. To what purpose? I say the purpose is to demonize Hindu religion, to degrade and humiliate Hindu teachings by gross distortion and abuse, and propagandistically fuel the hatreds dividing the Sikh-Hindu communities which have already led to so much bloodshed.</p><p></p><p>Veer ji, this cannot be right.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Harjas Kaur Khalsa, post: 84617, member: 2125"] Does it occur to you that we are on polar opposite sides of an opinion and as such, I don't accept your interpretation as correct, while you don't accept my interpretation as correct. But when I present sanatana views, somehow you feel justified in abusing it. As you claim: [I][COLOR="DarkRed"]Above is your quote, does it occur you that it is not like that portion of Veda where exploitation of Brahamin is in high gear, it is said” if you give this to Brahamin, you will get this, if you do this, your ancestors will get this., read Shadong Upnished, lesson 6, Khand 9 and 15. also Manu smiriti Slok 123, 125 Adhiaae10. You will see how humanity is degraded[/COLOR][/I] If you were honest about it, you would acknowledge that Manu Smriti isn't accepted by all schools of Hinduism. Neither are Shiva Sutras. So talking about something you find personally obnoxious in those scriptures says nothing about sanatana Dharma as a whole. I could actuallly talk in great detail about human sacrifices and some very esoteric and complex things... but I can barely discuss common Vaishnav elements in Gurbani teachings without incredible opposition. Suffice to say, sanatana Dharma is very ancient and very broad, and deals in some elements with forces of a more negative nature. But this is not to say Sanatana Dharma as a religious philosophy is negative. It's completely positive. But if you want to look at tantric practices and tantrang mantrang and jado tuna, then yes, you will be looking at some strange things. I find it astounding that your entire focus is on negativity, even when I quoted dozens of tuuks of Gurbani which are positive and speak of the praise of God, of the Naam which is praised in Hindu scriptures. So my point was to counterbalance this hateful negativistic opinion which keeps condemning Hindu spirituality as something evil, worthless and obscene and "disgusting." Even on these forums is an unmoderated post where someone called Nirmala Devi a Bi----, because he resented her sanatan Sikhism. So this huge hostility and one-sided discrimination is simply unacceptable, and the reason for my posting on these issues. Let's be fair. You get angry because I point out the Vaishnavism which I honestly perceive in Gurbani, and count it a matter of profound disrespect and insult... not because of what was said, but because of the tremendous hatred for Hinduism pervasive in Sikh communities. Yet, comments that claim and beat the drums loudly that ALL Hindu spirituality is based on scriptures which are worthless, obscene, evil and degrading to humanity, and disgusting... you don't see that as injustice? You don't see that as imbalance? You don't see that as unfairness? That is really pathetic. And then you conclude I have no right to ask for fairness because I degrade Sikhi by equating Guru Nanak Dev Ji's message with Vaishnavism, which I also perceive as a beautiful spiritual message. So all you are saying is, you want the right to abuse the sanatan message. You know, all I can say is, I feel sorry for you. Say whatever you want. It is my opinion that when Gurbani says Guru is the wisdom of the Vedas, that means the wisdom of the Vedas has been incorporated into Gurubani. And I respect that Guruji's message includes sanatan elements simply from that basis, without discrimination which condemns sanatana Dharma. When I read the Gurbani that you cite, including vaaran of Bhai Gurdas Ji, I don't ignore it at all. I simply don't agree with your opinion about what it says. I do agree that according to spiritual teachings and ultimate spiritual nature, there is no caste discrimination. But realistically, socially, Sikhs are just as caste conscious as Hindus. So why make the artificial divide that Sikhism rejects the caste system, and then fail to explain why there is so much caste discrimination in Sikhism? And the fact of the matter is, if you look at the history of Sikhism, casteism was never NOT a part of it. Even when the Jatts converted en masse under the leadership of Banda Singh Bahadur Ji, Jatts NEVER lost their caste identity or kinship ties. Even the Sikh Misls were identified and known by caste. Even the Gurus themselves were identified and known by caste. So, in analyzing WHY there is this HUGE discrepancy between assertions which claim Guru REJECTED the caste system, and why the caste system is so historically pervasive in Sikhism, it isn't just BAD Sikhs, but among the most influential, Generals, and even Maharaja Ranjit Singh, every Rajput and Khatri, Saini and Jatt knows his caste history. And it is my interpretation that Gurbani DID NOT reject caste system outright, acknowledging that caste varna system is the Will of the God. HOWEVER, clearly asserting spiritual equality and brotherhood in the teachings, where a low caste who is a Gurmukh, is equal to a brahmin, and a brahmin who is corrupted is equal to a Shudra. I do not see how dozens of tuuks and pauris in Gurbani, PLUS the historical pattern and evidence for continuation of pervasive caste system in Sikhism is overshadowed by Bhai Gurdas Ji saying to Guru the 4 castes became one. This is entirely correct as Khalsa was a military Order, just like the Vaishnava and Shaivite Nath military Acharas which also admitted all castes to their ranks. But outside the battlefield, caste system was still continued. I don't even say this is right or wrong. I am looking at the history, looking at the Gurbani. This issue cannot be answered simplistically with one or two tuuks and vaars. It's a complex issue veer ji. And I did not start the caste system or praise injustices, or encourage Sikhs to become part of this and that. Be fair to the debate. I did not create this history, but this history DOES EXIST. And all the idealism fails to explain WHY, at the highest and most influential levels of Sikh society does caste system persist. WHY, extending beyond the rularship of Maharaja Ranjit Singh does caste system exist during the "supposedly Tat Khalsa" Sikh Misl period? And WHY does EVERY written historical record of Sikhs INCLUDE identification by caste? No one has yet answered WHY Gurbani itself identifies Guru Ramdas Ji by caste surname. Simply quoting a vaar of Bhai Gurdas does not remove this tuuk from Gurbani, and it has yet to be adequately explained veer ji. I don't say you know the answer. Even I don't know the answer. But the weight of the historical evidence of keeping caste identification throughout Sikh history is telling, very telling. It cannot be ignored. Not only you, but several who have commented do so in most disagreeable and abusive terms to describe Hindu religion and corruption of Hindu people. So here you are saying you have the right to beat the drum loudly to expose the faults, yet you cry about any talk regarding Sikh injustice, Sikh corruption, Sikh hypocrisy, as hurting the sentiments of Sikhs and disrespecting Sikhs. The only point, ALL human beings are corrupted. Being a Hindu is not an automatic designation of the WORST of Hinduism, any more than being a Sikh is the GREATEST most SPIRITUAL attainment. Let's be reasonable. You want to beat the drums loudly, and here we are discussing Vaishnavism, and you are asking me to read Manu Smritis and Shiva sutras. To what purpose? Majority of Vaishnav reform rejected those hundreds of years ago. You know veer ji, ancient Hebrews also had animal sacrifice. And this became interpreted within Christianity as special puja of the human sacrifice of Jesus. Yet, whenever I have debated with Christians, I do not go on about how anciently the Jewish scriptures say sacrifice animals. WHY? Because it's not relevant to today's practice of Christianity. Gurbani says: [INDENT][COLOR="Blue"]ਬੇਦ ਕਤੇਬ ਕਹਹੁ ਮਤ ਝੂਠੇ ਝੂਠਾ ਜੋ ਨ ਬਿਚਾਰੈ ॥ baedh kathaeb kehahu math jhoothae jhoothaa jo n bichaarai || Do not say that the Vedas, the Bible and the Koran are false. Those who do not contemplate them are false. ~SGGS Ji p. 1350[/COLOR][/INDENT] [INDENT][COLOR="Purple"]ਆਪੇ ਸਾਸਤੁ ਆਪੇ ਬੇਦੁ ॥ aapae saasath aapae baedh || He Himself is the Shaastras, and He Himself is the Vedas. ਆਪੇ ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਜਾਣੈ ਭੇਦੁ ॥ aapae ghatt ghatt jaanai bhaedh || He knows the secrets of each and every heart. ਜੋਤਿ ਸਰੂਪ ਜਾ ਕੀ ਸਭ ਵਥੁ ॥ joth saroop jaa kee sabh vathh || He is the Embodiment of Light; all beings belong to Him. ~SGGS Ji p. 1150[/COLOR][/INDENT] [INDENT][COLOR="Green"]ਜੂਠਿ ਨ ਰਾਗਂ*ੀ ਜੂਠਿ ਨ ਵੇਦਂ*ੀ ॥ jooth n raaganaee jooth n vaedhanaee || Impurity does not come from music; impurity does not come from the Vedas. ~SGGS Ji p. 1240[/COLOR][/INDENT] [INDENT][COLOR="Teal"]ਆਪੇ ਵੇਦ ਪੁਰਾਣ ਸਭਿ ਸਾਸਤ ਆਪਿ ਕਥੈ ਆਪਿ ਭੀਜੈ ॥ aapae vaedh puraan sabh saasath aap kathhai aap bheejai || He Himself is the Vedas, the Puraanas and all the Shaastras; He Himself chants them, and He Himself is pleased. ਆਪੇ ਹੀ ਬਹਿ ਪੂਜੇ ਕਰਤਾ ਆਪਿ ਪਰਪੰਚੁ ਕਰੀਜੈ ॥ aapae hee behi poojae karathaa aap parapanch kareejai || He Himself sits down to worship, and He Himself creates the world. ਆਪਿ ਪਰਵਿਰਤਿ ਆਪਿ ਨਿਰਵਿਰਤੀ ਆਪੇ ਅਕਥੁ ਕਥੀਜੈ ॥ aap paravirath aap niravirathee aapae akathh kathheejai || He Himself is a householder, and He Himself is a renunciate; He Himself utters the Unutterable. ਆਪੇ ਪੁੰਨੁ ਸਭੁ ਆਪਿ ਕਰਾਏ ਆਪਿ ਅਲਿਪਤੁ ਵਰਤੀਜੈ ॥ aapae punn sabh aap karaaeae aap alipath varatheejai || He Himself is all goodness, and He Himself causes us to act; He Himself remains detached. ~SGGS Ji p. 551[/COLOR][/INDENT] So how can you persist in saying: You are condemning what Gurbani says the God Himself has brought into being. To what purpose? I say the purpose is to demonize Hindu religion, to degrade and humiliate Hindu teachings by gross distortion and abuse, and propagandistically fuel the hatreds dividing the Sikh-Hindu communities which have already led to so much bloodshed. Veer ji, this cannot be right. [/QUOTE]
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