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Gurbani (14-53)
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Gurbani (151-185)
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ਰਾਗੁ ਗੂਜਰੀ | Raag Goojaree
Gurbani (489-503)
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ਰਾਗੁ ਦੇਵਗੰਧਾਰੀ | Raag Dayv-Gandhaaree
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ਰਾਗੁ ਵਡਹੰਸ | Raag Wadhans
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ਰਾਗੁ ਸੋਰਠਿ | Raag Sorath
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ਰਾਗੁ ਟੋਡੀ | Raag Todee
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Gurbani (721-727)
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Gurbani (728-750)
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Gurbani (795-831)
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ਰਾਗੁ ਗੋਂਡ | Raag Gond
Gurbani (859-869)
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ਰਾਗੁ ਰਾਮਕਲੀ | Raag Ramkalee
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ਰਾਗੁ ਨਟ ਨਾਰਾਇਨ | Raag Nat Narayan
Gurbani (975-980)
Ashtpadiyan (980-983)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਾਲੀ ਗਉੜਾ | Raag Maalee Gauraa
Gurbani (984-988)
Bhagat Bani (988)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਾਰੂ | Raag Maaroo
Gurbani (889-1008)
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Solhe (1020-1033)
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ਰਾਗੁ ਤੁਖਾਰੀ | Raag Tukhaari
Bara Maha (1107-1110)
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ਰਾਗੁ ਕੇਦਾਰਾ | Raag Kedara
Gurbani (1118-1123)
Bhagat Bani (1123-1124)
ਰਾਗੁ ਭੈਰਉ | Raag Bhairo
Gurbani (1125-1152)
Partaal (1153)
Ashtpadiyan (1153-1167)
ਰਾਗੁ ਬਸੰਤੁ | Raag Basant
Gurbani (1168-1187)
Ashtpadiyan (1187-1193)
Vaar Basant (1193-1196)
ਰਾਗੁ ਸਾਰਗ | Raag Saarag
Gurbani (1197-1200)
Partaal (1200-1231)
Ashtpadiyan (1232-1236)
Chhant (1236-1237)
Vaar Saarang (1237-1253)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਲਾਰ | Raag Malaar
Gurbani (1254-1293)
Partaal (1265-1273)
Ashtpadiyan (1273-1278)
Chhant (1278)
Vaar Malaar (1278-91)
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ਰਾਗੁ ਕਾਨੜਾ | Raag Kaanraa
Gurbani (1294-96)
Partaal (1296-1318)
Ashtpadiyan (1308-1312)
Chhant (1312)
Vaar Kaanraa
Bhagat Bani (1318)
ਰਾਗੁ ਕਲਿਆਨ | Raag Kalyaan
Gurbani (1319-23)
Ashtpadiyan (1323-26)
ਰਾਗੁ ਪ੍ਰਭਾਤੀ | Raag Prabhaatee
Gurbani (1327-1341)
Ashtpadiyan (1342-51)
ਰਾਗੁ ਜੈਜਾਵੰਤੀ | Raag Jaijaiwanti
Gurbani (1352-53)
Salok | Gatha | Phunahe | Chaubole | Swayiye
Sehskritee Mahala 1
Sehskritee Mahala 5
Gaathaa Mahala 5
Phunhay Mahala 5
Chaubolae Mahala 5
Shaloks Bhagat Kabir
Shaloks Sheikh Farid
Swaiyyae Mahala 5
Swaiyyae in Praise of Gurus
Shaloks in Addition To Vaars
Shalok Ninth Mehl
Mundavanee Mehl 5
ਰਾਗ ਮਾਲਾ, Raag Maalaa
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Sikhism Is Not The Same As Hinduism, Islam Or Christianity Etc
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<blockquote data-quote="Harjas Kaur Khalsa" data-source="post: 84505" data-attributes="member: 2125"><p>Vishnu is a term as well as a name. Maha-Vishnu is referred to as Parameshwara, the Supreme Lord which is All-pervading the creation. So in this context, this name is not of some demi-God, but of the Ek Omkar, who is Supreme and all-pervading. If the Supreme God is all-pervading, then these demi-gods have to be seen in context as an aspect or element of something higher. I did not say by worshipping the sargun, people get mukti. That is a real distortion of what I said. I said certain Vaishnavs worship the sarguna, but Gurbani clarifies that japping the Naam we focus on the nirguna who is beyond the form because these forms turn to dust. What I said was we can't jap any Naams of the nirguna, because the nirguna is formless. How can you name that which is formless? You can't. And that explains why Gurbani uses the names of sargun avataaras as names of the One All-pervading.</p><p></p><p>People get mukti, not from the Naams, but it is more complex. Ek Omkar: Eko Brahman-Trimurthi-Creator. The Primal One Parabrahm has created the sansaara through the mode of three gunas, also called the Trimurthi or Brahm, Mahes, Vishnu. These demi-gods are part of the three gunas, and therefore in time, subject to Maya and duality. They do not know the limits of the nirguna, because no one knows the limits of the nirguna. "Only He Himself, knows Himself," Gurbani says. The Om or AUM also represents the Trimurthi, but it has a nasal bindu on it, which represents the Nada. This is the sound current of the Naad. Ekaksara is also like a single syllable, while pranava is the reverberation of the syllable. So from the Vedas we find the Ekaksara, which is the earliest description (later translated into Omkara), represents the vibration of sound which lies at the heart of creation. The Shabda comes from the Naad. We can't jap what the Naad is. But we can jap the Shabad. So in this way the Naam is related to the Shabad and also to vibration of the Naad. So let's not get oversimplified in distorting teachings.</p><p></p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue">ਨਾਮੁ ਵਸੈ ਤਿਸੁ ਅਨਹਦ ਵਾਜੇ ॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue">naam vasai this anehadh vaajae ||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue">the Naam abides within him, and the unstruck sound current vibrates for him.</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue">~SGGS Ji p. 1082</span></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Teal">ਕਾਇਆ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਮਹੇਸਾ ਸਭ ਓਪਤਿ ਜਿਤੁ ਸੰਸਾਰਾ ॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Teal">kaaeiaa andhar brehamaa bisan mehaesaa sabh oupath jith sansaaraa ||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Teal">Within the body, are Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva, from whom the whole world emanated.</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Teal"></span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Teal">ਸਚੈ ਆਪਣਾ ਖੇਲੁ ਰਚਾਇਆ ਆਵਾ ਗਉਣੁ ਪਾਸਾਰਾ ॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Teal">sachai aapanaa khael rachaaeiaa aavaa goun paasaaraa ||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Teal">The True Lord has staged and contrived His own play; the expanse of the Universe comes and goes.</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Teal">~SGGS Ji p. 754</span></p><p></p><p></p><p>By japping Naam you are uniting the consciousness with the sound current which is the heart of creation and the Creator Himself. The sargun forms of the nirguna have no relevance, because it is the Divine Consciousness, the Jyot of the Nirguna which made the sargun forms purposeful, able to fulfill the hukam. You say the Sikhs only have hukam, Vaishnavs don't have this concept. As you admit you have limited knowledge of Vaishnav philosophy, I wonder why you continue to preach what is the Vaishnav philosophy and distort it all the time. Does this make sense? I'm surprised to be asked not to cite Wikepedia, yet the most unsupported denunciations of Hindu philosophy are made and no one puts these assertions on the "hotseat." Yet any assertion of mine is run over several cliffs and then deleted or thread closed to moderate a particular viewpoint. The oppositional views don't even bother to investigate what they are accusing. They just label something or make an accusation, and this is accepted. Yet I am asked for percentages, proofs, definitive and corroborative sources, etc. How can anyone speak of fairness on this forum when I am moderated so much, and no one else is.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple">ਮਛੁ ਕਛੁ ਕੂਰਮੁ ਆਗਿਆ ਅਉਤਰਾਸੀ ॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple">mashh kashh kooram aagiaa aoutharaasee ||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple">By the Pleasure of His Will, He took incarnation as the great fish and the tortoise.</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple"></span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple">ਕੇਸਵ ਚਲਤ ਕਰਹਿ ਨਿਰਾਲੇ ਕੀਤਾ ਲੋੜਹਿ ਸੋ ਹੋਇਗਾ ॥੮॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple">kaesav chalath karehi niraalae keethaa lorrehi so hoeigaa ||8||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple">The Lord of beauteous hair, the Worker of miraculous deeds, whatever He wishes, comes to pass. ||8|| </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple"></span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple">ਨਿਰਾਹਾਰੀ ਨਿਰਵੈਰੁ ਸਮਾਇਆ ॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple">niraahaaree niravair samaaeiaa ||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple">He is beyond need of any sustenance, free of hate and all-pervading.</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple"></span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple">ਧਾਰਿ ਖੇਲੁ ਚਤੁਰਭੁਜੁ ਕਹਾਇਆ ॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple">dhhaar khael chathurabhuj kehaaeiaa ||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple">He has staged His play; He is called the four-armed Lord. </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple"></span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple">ਸਾਵਲ ਸੁੰਦਰ ਰੂਪ ਬਣਾਵਹਿ ਬੇਣੁ ਸੁਨਤ ਸਭ ਮੋਹੈਗਾ ॥੯॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple">saaval sundhar roop banaavehi baen sunath sabh mohaigaa ||9||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple">He assumed the beautiful form of the blue-skinned Krishna; hearing His flute, all are fascinated and enticed. ||9||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple">~SGGS Ji p. 1082</span></p><p></p><p></p><p>We see from Gurbani that the avataaras are a manifestation of the all-pervading Lord, nirguna. And that they took incarnation according to His will, hukam. So how can we say the avataaras don't keep the Hukam of God's command? When Gurbani is saying the Lord Himself took incarnation?</p><p></p><p>And I don't see how anyone is buried under an avalanch of gods in the concept of avataara which Gurbani says the all-pervading took incarnation, descended into sansaara in these forms. So it is only the One All-pervading. That is why Raam, and Krishna are not demi-gods, but avataaras of the One All-pervading nirguna.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Our attention isn't divided to place on the Naam, because the Naam is vibrating the sound current of the Naad, meaning, the Naam is coming from higher dimensionality of the nirgun God Himself. It isn't "hard" or "not easy" to contemplate on, unless we have reached the Fourth stage of consciousness, Turiya, it is impossible. So how do we reach that stage? We reach it by cleansing the sankalpas of mind and panj bhoots by japping the Naam. This opens our spiritual sight so we may have darshan of the Vaheguru, and understanding, which we cannot penetrate duality until we have this understanding Brahm Jnana. And how do we get this understanding? Through Dhyaan and Simran of the Naam. Until our atma becomes merged in the Paramatma, we can't perceive the nirguna or even approach the limits. Once we are merged, we become Him. "Only He Himself, knows Himself."</p><p></p><p>Yes, all the sargun forms have turned to dust. It isn't the forms we worship, but the Divine Light pervading within them.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Vaishnavas are people like any other and many worship the sargun forms and idols. But this is not taught in Vaishnava scriptures, so if we are analyzing the philosophy, as you mention in Bhagavad-Gita Krishna distinguishes that he is not some fellow, but Narayana Himself. Now, you are objecting because Krishna is an avataar, someone who has taken birth and can't seem to reconcile the Advaitist philosophy of All-pervading One God present in His creation. You say, <span style="color: DarkRed"><em>"Gurbani accepts him as Sargun sroop but no where else it says” He was God or son of God,” as Krishna claims." </em></span></p><p></p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Teal">ਏਕ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨੰ ਸਰਬ ਦੇਵਾ ਦੇਵ ਦੇਵਾ ਤ ਆਤਮਾ ॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Teal">eaek kirasanan sarab dhaevaa dhaev dhaevaa th aathamaa ||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Teal">The One Lord Krishna is the Divine Lord of all; He is the Divinity of the individual soul.</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Teal"></span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Teal">ਆਤਮਾ ਬਾਸੁਦੇਵਸ੍ਯ੍ਯਿ ਜੇ ਕੋ ਜਾਣੈ ਭੇਉ ॥ਨਾਨਕੁ ਤਾ ਕਾ ਦਾਸੁ ਹੈ ਸੋਈ ਨਿਰੰਜਨ ਦੇਉ ॥੪॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Teal">aathamaa baasudhaevasiy jae ko jaanai bhaeo || naanak thaa kaa dhaas hai soee niranjan dhaeo ||4||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Teal">Nanak is a slave to anyone who understands this mystery of the all-pervading Lord; he himself is the Immaculate Divine Lord. ||4||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Teal">~SGGS Ji p. 469</span></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo">ਸਾਵਲ ਸੁੰਦਰ ਰੂਪ ਬਣਾਵਹਿ ਬੇਣੁ ਸੁਨਤ ਸਭ ਮੋਹੈਗਾ ॥੯॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo">saaval sundhar roop banaavehi baen sunath sabh mohaigaa ||9||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo">He assumed the beautiful form of the blue-skinned Krishna; hearing His flute, all are fascinated and enticed. ||9||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo"></span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo">ਬਨਮਾਲਾ ਬਿਭੂਖਨ ਕਮਲ ਨੈਨ ॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo">banamaalaa bibhookhan kamal nain ||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo">He is adorned with garlands of flowers, with lotus eyes.</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo"></span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo">ਸੁੰਦਰ ਕੁੰਡਲ ਮੁਕਟ ਬੈਨ ॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo">sundhar kunddal mukatt bain ||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo">His ear-rings, crown and flute are so beautiful. </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo"></span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo">ਸੰਖ ਚਕ੍ਰ ਗਦਾ ਹੈ ਧਾਰੀ ਮਹਾ ਸਾਰਥੀ ਸਤਸੰਗਾ ॥੧੦॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo">sankh chakr gadhaa hai dhhaaree mehaa saarathhee sathasangaa ||10||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo">He carries the conch, the chakra and the war club; He is the Great Charioteer, who stays with His Saints. ||10||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo"></span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo">ਪੀਤ ਪੀਤੰਬਰ ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣ ਧਣੀ ॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo">peeth peethanbar thribhavan dhhanee ||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo">The Lord of yellow robes, the Master of the three worlds. </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo"></span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo">ਜਗੰਨਾਥੁ ਗੋਪਾਲੁ ਮੁਖਿ ਭਣੀ ॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo">jagannaathh gopaal mukh bhanee ||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo">The Lord of the Universe, the Lord of the world; with my mouth, I chant His Name.</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo">~SGGS Ji p. 1082</span></p><p></p><p></p><p>Who assumed the form of Krishna? According to Gurbani, it is the Lord of the universe whose name we chant.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue">ਸਤਜੁਗਿ ਤੈ ਮਾਣਿਓ ਛਲਿਓ ਬਲਿ ਬਾਵਨ ਭਾਇਓ ॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue">sathajug thai maaniou shhaliou bal baavan bhaaeiou ||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue">In the Golden Age of Sat Yuga, You were pleased to deceive Baal the king, in the form of a dwarf.</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue"></span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue">ਤ੍ਰੇਤੈ ਤੈ ਮਾਣਿਓ ਰਾਮੁ ਰਘੁਵੰਸੁ ਕਹਾਇਓ ॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue">thraethai thai maaniou raam raghuvans kehaaeiou ||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue">In the Silver Age of Traytaa Yuga, You were called Raam of the Raghu dynasty. </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue"></span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue">ਦੁਆਪੁਰਿ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਮੁਰਾਰਿ ਕੰਸੁ ਕਿਰਤਾਰਥੁ ਕੀਓ ॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue">dhuaapur kirasan muraar kans kirathaarathh keeou ||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue">In the Brass Age of Dwaapur Yuga, You were Krishna; You killed Mur the demon and saved Kans.</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue"></span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue">ਉਗ੍ਰਸੈਣ ਕਉ ਰਾਜੁ ਅਭੈ ਭਗਤਹ ਜਨ ਦੀਓ ॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue">ougrasain ko raaj abhai bhagatheh jan dheeou ||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue">You blessed Ugrasain with a kingdom, and You blessed Your humble devotees with fearlessness.</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue"></span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue">ਕਲਿਜੁਗਿ ਪ੍ਰਮਾਣੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰੁ ਅੰਗਦੁ ਅਮਰੁ ਕਹਾਇਓ ॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue">kalijug pramaan naanak gur angadh amar kehaaeiou ||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue">In the Iron Age, the Dark Age of Kali Yuga, You are known and accepted as Guru Nanak, Guru Angad and Guru Amar Das.</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue"></span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue">ਸ੍ਰੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਰਾਜੁ ਅਬਿਚਲੁ ਅਟਲੁ ਆਦਿ ਪੁਰਖਿ ਫੁਰਮਾਇਓ ॥੭॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue">sree guroo raaj abichal attal aadh purakh furamaaeiou ||7||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue">The sovereign rule of the Great Guru is unchanging and permanent, according the Command of the Primal Lord God. ||7||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue">~SGGS Ji p. 1390</span></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple">ਆਪੇ ਗੋਪੀ ਕਾਨੁ ਹੈ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਬਨਿ ਆਪੇ ਗਊ ਚਰਾਹਾ ॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple">aapae gopee kaan hai piaaraa ban aapae goo charaahaa ||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple">The Beloved Himself is the milk-maid and Krishna; He Himself herds the cows in the woods. </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple"></span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple">ਆਪੇ ਸਾਵਲ ਸੁੰਦਰਾ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਆਪੇ ਵੰਸੁ ਵਜਾਹਾ ॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple">aapae saaval sundharaa piaaraa aapae vans vajaahaa ||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple">The Beloved Himself is the blue-skinned, handsome one; He Himself plays on His flute.</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple"></span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple">ਕੁਵਲੀਆ ਪੀੜੁ ਆਪਿ ਮਰਾਇਦਾ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਕਰਿ ਬਾਲਕ ਰੂਪਿ ਪਚਾਹਾ ॥੨॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple">kuvaleeaa peerr aap maraaeidhaa piaaraa kar baalak roop pachaahaa ||2||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple">The Beloved Himself took the form of a child, and destroyed Kuwalia-peer, the mad elephant. ||2||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple"></span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple">ਆਪਿ ਅਖਾੜਾ ਪਾਇਦਾ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਕਰਿ ਵੇਖੈ ਆਪਿ ਚੋਜਾਹਾ ॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple">aap akhaarraa paaeidhaa piaaraa kar vaekhai aap chojaahaa ||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple">The Beloved Himself sets the stage; He performs the plays, and He Himself watches them.</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple"></span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple">ਕਰਿ ਬਾਲਕ ਰੂਪ ਉਪਾਇਦਾ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਚੰਡੂਰੁ ਕੰਸੁ ਕੇਸੁ ਮਾਰਾਹਾ ॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple">kar baalak roop oupaaeidhaa piaaraa chanddoor kans kaes maaraahaa ||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple">The Beloved Himself assumed the form of the child, and killed the demons Chandoor, Kansa and Kaysee.</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple"></span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple">ਆਪੇ ਹੀ ਬਲੁ ਆਪਿ ਹੈ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਬਲੁ ਭੰਨੈ ਮੂਰਖ ਮੁਗਧਾਹਾ ॥੩॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple">aapae hee bal aap hai piaaraa bal bhannai moorakh mugadhhaahaa ||3||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple">The Beloved Himself, by Himself, is the embodiment of power; He shatters the power of the fools and idiots. ||3|| </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple"></span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple">ਸਭੁ ਆਪੇ ਜਗਤੁ ਉਪਾਇਦਾ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਵਸਿ ਆਪੇ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਹਥਾਹਾ ॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple">sabh aapae jagath oupaaeidhaa piaaraa vas aapae jugath hathhaahaa ||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple">The Beloved Himself created the whole world. In His hands He holds the power of the ages.</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple">~SGGS Ji p. 606</span></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p><span style="color: Teal"><p style="margin-left: 20px">ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰ ਨਾਨਕ ਦੇਉ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰਿ ਆਕਾਰ ਬਣਾਇਆ । </p></span></p><p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Teal">nirankaar naanak dayu nirankaari aakaar banaaiaa|</p></span></p><p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Teal">The formless Lord assumed the form of Guru Nanak Dev who is second all forms.</p></span></p><p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Teal"></p></span></p><p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Teal">ਗੁਰੁ ਅੰਗਦੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਅੰਗ ਤੇ ਗੰਗਹੁ ਜਾਣੁ ਤਰੰਗ ਉਠਾਇਆ । </p></span></p><p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Teal">guru angadu guru ang tay gangahu jaanu tarang utdaaiaa|</p></span></p><p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Teal">In turn, he created Guru Angad from his limbs as the waves created by Ganges.</p></span></p><p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Teal"></p></span></p><p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Teal">ਅਮਰਦਾਸੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਅੰਗਦਹੁ ਜੋਤਿ ਸਰੂਪ ਚਲਤੁ ਵਰਤਾਇਆ । </p></span></p><p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Teal">amaradaasu guru angadahu joti saroop chalatu varataaiaa|</p></span></p><p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Teal">From Guru Angad came Guru Amar Das and the miracle of the transference of the light was seen by one and all.</p></span></p><p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Teal"></p></span></p><p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Teal">ਗੁਰੁ ਅਮਰਹੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਰਾਮਦਾਸੁ ਅਨਹਦ ਨਾਦਹੁ ਸਬਦੁ ਸੁਣਾਇਆ । </p></span></p><p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Teal">guru amarahu guru raamadaasu anahad naadahu sabadu sunaaiaa|</p></span></p><p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Teal">From Guru Amar Das, Guru Ram Das came into being in such a way as if the Word was from the unstruck sounds.</p></span></p><p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Teal">~Vaar 24 Pauri 25 of Vaaran Bhai Gurdas Ji</p><p></span></p><p><span style="color: Blue"><p style="margin-left: 20px">ਆਸੰਭਉ ਉਦਵਿਅਉ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਪੂਰਨ ਬਿਧਾਤਉ ॥ </p></span></p><p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue">aasanbho oudhaviao purakh pooran bidhhaatho ||</p></span></p><p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue">The Self-existent, Perfect Primal Lord God Creator has taken birth.</p></span></p><p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue"></p></span></p><p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue">ਨਾਨਕ ਆਦਿ ਅੰਗਦ ਅਮਰ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਸਬਦਿ ਸਮਾਇਅਉ ॥ </p></span></p><p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue">naanak aadh angadh amar sathigur sabadh samaaeiao ||</p></span></p><p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue">First, Guru Nanak, then Guru Angad and Guru Amar Daas, the True Guru, have been absorbed into the Word of the Shabad.</p></span></p><p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue">~SGGS Ji p. 1407</p><p></span></p><p></p><p>~Bhul chak maaf</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Harjas Kaur Khalsa, post: 84505, member: 2125"] Vishnu is a term as well as a name. Maha-Vishnu is referred to as Parameshwara, the Supreme Lord which is All-pervading the creation. So in this context, this name is not of some demi-God, but of the Ek Omkar, who is Supreme and all-pervading. If the Supreme God is all-pervading, then these demi-gods have to be seen in context as an aspect or element of something higher. I did not say by worshipping the sargun, people get mukti. That is a real distortion of what I said. I said certain Vaishnavs worship the sarguna, but Gurbani clarifies that japping the Naam we focus on the nirguna who is beyond the form because these forms turn to dust. What I said was we can't jap any Naams of the nirguna, because the nirguna is formless. How can you name that which is formless? You can't. And that explains why Gurbani uses the names of sargun avataaras as names of the One All-pervading. People get mukti, not from the Naams, but it is more complex. Ek Omkar: Eko Brahman-Trimurthi-Creator. The Primal One Parabrahm has created the sansaara through the mode of three gunas, also called the Trimurthi or Brahm, Mahes, Vishnu. These demi-gods are part of the three gunas, and therefore in time, subject to Maya and duality. They do not know the limits of the nirguna, because no one knows the limits of the nirguna. "Only He Himself, knows Himself," Gurbani says. The Om or AUM also represents the Trimurthi, but it has a nasal bindu on it, which represents the Nada. This is the sound current of the Naad. Ekaksara is also like a single syllable, while pranava is the reverberation of the syllable. So from the Vedas we find the Ekaksara, which is the earliest description (later translated into Omkara), represents the vibration of sound which lies at the heart of creation. The Shabda comes from the Naad. We can't jap what the Naad is. But we can jap the Shabad. So in this way the Naam is related to the Shabad and also to vibration of the Naad. So let's not get oversimplified in distorting teachings. [INDENT][COLOR="Blue"]ਨਾਮੁ ਵਸੈ ਤਿਸੁ ਅਨਹਦ ਵਾਜੇ ॥ naam vasai this anehadh vaajae || the Naam abides within him, and the unstruck sound current vibrates for him. ~SGGS Ji p. 1082[/COLOR][/INDENT] [INDENT][COLOR="Teal"]ਕਾਇਆ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਮਹੇਸਾ ਸਭ ਓਪਤਿ ਜਿਤੁ ਸੰਸਾਰਾ ॥ kaaeiaa andhar brehamaa bisan mehaesaa sabh oupath jith sansaaraa || Within the body, are Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva, from whom the whole world emanated. ਸਚੈ ਆਪਣਾ ਖੇਲੁ ਰਚਾਇਆ ਆਵਾ ਗਉਣੁ ਪਾਸਾਰਾ ॥ sachai aapanaa khael rachaaeiaa aavaa goun paasaaraa || The True Lord has staged and contrived His own play; the expanse of the Universe comes and goes. ~SGGS Ji p. 754[/COLOR][/INDENT] By japping Naam you are uniting the consciousness with the sound current which is the heart of creation and the Creator Himself. The sargun forms of the nirguna have no relevance, because it is the Divine Consciousness, the Jyot of the Nirguna which made the sargun forms purposeful, able to fulfill the hukam. You say the Sikhs only have hukam, Vaishnavs don't have this concept. As you admit you have limited knowledge of Vaishnav philosophy, I wonder why you continue to preach what is the Vaishnav philosophy and distort it all the time. Does this make sense? I'm surprised to be asked not to cite Wikepedia, yet the most unsupported denunciations of Hindu philosophy are made and no one puts these assertions on the "hotseat." Yet any assertion of mine is run over several cliffs and then deleted or thread closed to moderate a particular viewpoint. The oppositional views don't even bother to investigate what they are accusing. They just label something or make an accusation, and this is accepted. Yet I am asked for percentages, proofs, definitive and corroborative sources, etc. How can anyone speak of fairness on this forum when I am moderated so much, and no one else is. [INDENT][COLOR="Purple"]ਮਛੁ ਕਛੁ ਕੂਰਮੁ ਆਗਿਆ ਅਉਤਰਾਸੀ ॥ mashh kashh kooram aagiaa aoutharaasee || By the Pleasure of His Will, He took incarnation as the great fish and the tortoise. ਕੇਸਵ ਚਲਤ ਕਰਹਿ ਨਿਰਾਲੇ ਕੀਤਾ ਲੋੜਹਿ ਸੋ ਹੋਇਗਾ ॥੮॥ kaesav chalath karehi niraalae keethaa lorrehi so hoeigaa ||8|| The Lord of beauteous hair, the Worker of miraculous deeds, whatever He wishes, comes to pass. ||8|| ਨਿਰਾਹਾਰੀ ਨਿਰਵੈਰੁ ਸਮਾਇਆ ॥ niraahaaree niravair samaaeiaa || He is beyond need of any sustenance, free of hate and all-pervading. ਧਾਰਿ ਖੇਲੁ ਚਤੁਰਭੁਜੁ ਕਹਾਇਆ ॥ dhhaar khael chathurabhuj kehaaeiaa || He has staged His play; He is called the four-armed Lord. ਸਾਵਲ ਸੁੰਦਰ ਰੂਪ ਬਣਾਵਹਿ ਬੇਣੁ ਸੁਨਤ ਸਭ ਮੋਹੈਗਾ ॥੯॥ saaval sundhar roop banaavehi baen sunath sabh mohaigaa ||9|| He assumed the beautiful form of the blue-skinned Krishna; hearing His flute, all are fascinated and enticed. ||9|| ~SGGS Ji p. 1082[/COLOR][/INDENT] We see from Gurbani that the avataaras are a manifestation of the all-pervading Lord, nirguna. And that they took incarnation according to His will, hukam. So how can we say the avataaras don't keep the Hukam of God's command? When Gurbani is saying the Lord Himself took incarnation? And I don't see how anyone is buried under an avalanch of gods in the concept of avataara which Gurbani says the all-pervading took incarnation, descended into sansaara in these forms. So it is only the One All-pervading. That is why Raam, and Krishna are not demi-gods, but avataaras of the One All-pervading nirguna. Our attention isn't divided to place on the Naam, because the Naam is vibrating the sound current of the Naad, meaning, the Naam is coming from higher dimensionality of the nirgun God Himself. It isn't "hard" or "not easy" to contemplate on, unless we have reached the Fourth stage of consciousness, Turiya, it is impossible. So how do we reach that stage? We reach it by cleansing the sankalpas of mind and panj bhoots by japping the Naam. This opens our spiritual sight so we may have darshan of the Vaheguru, and understanding, which we cannot penetrate duality until we have this understanding Brahm Jnana. And how do we get this understanding? Through Dhyaan and Simran of the Naam. Until our atma becomes merged in the Paramatma, we can't perceive the nirguna or even approach the limits. Once we are merged, we become Him. "Only He Himself, knows Himself." Yes, all the sargun forms have turned to dust. It isn't the forms we worship, but the Divine Light pervading within them. Vaishnavas are people like any other and many worship the sargun forms and idols. But this is not taught in Vaishnava scriptures, so if we are analyzing the philosophy, as you mention in Bhagavad-Gita Krishna distinguishes that he is not some fellow, but Narayana Himself. Now, you are objecting because Krishna is an avataar, someone who has taken birth and can't seem to reconcile the Advaitist philosophy of All-pervading One God present in His creation. You say, [COLOR="DarkRed"][I]"Gurbani accepts him as Sargun sroop but no where else it says” He was God or son of God,” as Krishna claims." [/I][/COLOR] [INDENT][COLOR="Teal"]ਏਕ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨੰ ਸਰਬ ਦੇਵਾ ਦੇਵ ਦੇਵਾ ਤ ਆਤਮਾ ॥ eaek kirasanan sarab dhaevaa dhaev dhaevaa th aathamaa || The One Lord Krishna is the Divine Lord of all; He is the Divinity of the individual soul. ਆਤਮਾ ਬਾਸੁਦੇਵਸ੍ਯ੍ਯਿ ਜੇ ਕੋ ਜਾਣੈ ਭੇਉ ॥ਨਾਨਕੁ ਤਾ ਕਾ ਦਾਸੁ ਹੈ ਸੋਈ ਨਿਰੰਜਨ ਦੇਉ ॥੪॥ aathamaa baasudhaevasiy jae ko jaanai bhaeo || naanak thaa kaa dhaas hai soee niranjan dhaeo ||4|| Nanak is a slave to anyone who understands this mystery of the all-pervading Lord; he himself is the Immaculate Divine Lord. ||4|| ~SGGS Ji p. 469[/COLOR][/INDENT] [INDENT][COLOR="Indigo"]ਸਾਵਲ ਸੁੰਦਰ ਰੂਪ ਬਣਾਵਹਿ ਬੇਣੁ ਸੁਨਤ ਸਭ ਮੋਹੈਗਾ ॥੯॥ saaval sundhar roop banaavehi baen sunath sabh mohaigaa ||9|| He assumed the beautiful form of the blue-skinned Krishna; hearing His flute, all are fascinated and enticed. ||9|| ਬਨਮਾਲਾ ਬਿਭੂਖਨ ਕਮਲ ਨੈਨ ॥ banamaalaa bibhookhan kamal nain || He is adorned with garlands of flowers, with lotus eyes. ਸੁੰਦਰ ਕੁੰਡਲ ਮੁਕਟ ਬੈਨ ॥ sundhar kunddal mukatt bain || His ear-rings, crown and flute are so beautiful. ਸੰਖ ਚਕ੍ਰ ਗਦਾ ਹੈ ਧਾਰੀ ਮਹਾ ਸਾਰਥੀ ਸਤਸੰਗਾ ॥੧੦॥ sankh chakr gadhaa hai dhhaaree mehaa saarathhee sathasangaa ||10|| He carries the conch, the chakra and the war club; He is the Great Charioteer, who stays with His Saints. ||10|| ਪੀਤ ਪੀਤੰਬਰ ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣ ਧਣੀ ॥ peeth peethanbar thribhavan dhhanee || The Lord of yellow robes, the Master of the three worlds. ਜਗੰਨਾਥੁ ਗੋਪਾਲੁ ਮੁਖਿ ਭਣੀ ॥ jagannaathh gopaal mukh bhanee || The Lord of the Universe, the Lord of the world; with my mouth, I chant His Name. ~SGGS Ji p. 1082[/COLOR][/INDENT] Who assumed the form of Krishna? According to Gurbani, it is the Lord of the universe whose name we chant. [INDENT][COLOR="Blue"]ਸਤਜੁਗਿ ਤੈ ਮਾਣਿਓ ਛਲਿਓ ਬਲਿ ਬਾਵਨ ਭਾਇਓ ॥ sathajug thai maaniou shhaliou bal baavan bhaaeiou || In the Golden Age of Sat Yuga, You were pleased to deceive Baal the king, in the form of a dwarf. ਤ੍ਰੇਤੈ ਤੈ ਮਾਣਿਓ ਰਾਮੁ ਰਘੁਵੰਸੁ ਕਹਾਇਓ ॥ thraethai thai maaniou raam raghuvans kehaaeiou || In the Silver Age of Traytaa Yuga, You were called Raam of the Raghu dynasty. ਦੁਆਪੁਰਿ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਮੁਰਾਰਿ ਕੰਸੁ ਕਿਰਤਾਰਥੁ ਕੀਓ ॥ dhuaapur kirasan muraar kans kirathaarathh keeou || In the Brass Age of Dwaapur Yuga, You were Krishna; You killed Mur the demon and saved Kans. ਉਗ੍ਰਸੈਣ ਕਉ ਰਾਜੁ ਅਭੈ ਭਗਤਹ ਜਨ ਦੀਓ ॥ ougrasain ko raaj abhai bhagatheh jan dheeou || You blessed Ugrasain with a kingdom, and You blessed Your humble devotees with fearlessness. ਕਲਿਜੁਗਿ ਪ੍ਰਮਾਣੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰੁ ਅੰਗਦੁ ਅਮਰੁ ਕਹਾਇਓ ॥ kalijug pramaan naanak gur angadh amar kehaaeiou || In the Iron Age, the Dark Age of Kali Yuga, You are known and accepted as Guru Nanak, Guru Angad and Guru Amar Das. ਸ੍ਰੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਰਾਜੁ ਅਬਿਚਲੁ ਅਟਲੁ ਆਦਿ ਪੁਰਖਿ ਫੁਰਮਾਇਓ ॥੭॥ sree guroo raaj abichal attal aadh purakh furamaaeiou ||7|| The sovereign rule of the Great Guru is unchanging and permanent, according the Command of the Primal Lord God. ||7|| ~SGGS Ji p. 1390[/COLOR][/INDENT] [INDENT][COLOR="Purple"]ਆਪੇ ਗੋਪੀ ਕਾਨੁ ਹੈ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਬਨਿ ਆਪੇ ਗਊ ਚਰਾਹਾ ॥ aapae gopee kaan hai piaaraa ban aapae goo charaahaa || The Beloved Himself is the milk-maid and Krishna; He Himself herds the cows in the woods. ਆਪੇ ਸਾਵਲ ਸੁੰਦਰਾ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਆਪੇ ਵੰਸੁ ਵਜਾਹਾ ॥ aapae saaval sundharaa piaaraa aapae vans vajaahaa || The Beloved Himself is the blue-skinned, handsome one; He Himself plays on His flute. ਕੁਵਲੀਆ ਪੀੜੁ ਆਪਿ ਮਰਾਇਦਾ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਕਰਿ ਬਾਲਕ ਰੂਪਿ ਪਚਾਹਾ ॥੨॥ kuvaleeaa peerr aap maraaeidhaa piaaraa kar baalak roop pachaahaa ||2|| The Beloved Himself took the form of a child, and destroyed Kuwalia-peer, the mad elephant. ||2|| ਆਪਿ ਅਖਾੜਾ ਪਾਇਦਾ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਕਰਿ ਵੇਖੈ ਆਪਿ ਚੋਜਾਹਾ ॥ aap akhaarraa paaeidhaa piaaraa kar vaekhai aap chojaahaa || The Beloved Himself sets the stage; He performs the plays, and He Himself watches them. ਕਰਿ ਬਾਲਕ ਰੂਪ ਉਪਾਇਦਾ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਚੰਡੂਰੁ ਕੰਸੁ ਕੇਸੁ ਮਾਰਾਹਾ ॥ kar baalak roop oupaaeidhaa piaaraa chanddoor kans kaes maaraahaa || The Beloved Himself assumed the form of the child, and killed the demons Chandoor, Kansa and Kaysee. ਆਪੇ ਹੀ ਬਲੁ ਆਪਿ ਹੈ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਬਲੁ ਭੰਨੈ ਮੂਰਖ ਮੁਗਧਾਹਾ ॥੩॥ aapae hee bal aap hai piaaraa bal bhannai moorakh mugadhhaahaa ||3|| The Beloved Himself, by Himself, is the embodiment of power; He shatters the power of the fools and idiots. ||3|| ਸਭੁ ਆਪੇ ਜਗਤੁ ਉਪਾਇਦਾ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਵਸਿ ਆਪੇ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਹਥਾਹਾ ॥ sabh aapae jagath oupaaeidhaa piaaraa vas aapae jugath hathhaahaa || The Beloved Himself created the whole world. In His hands He holds the power of the ages. ~SGGS Ji p. 606[/COLOR][/INDENT] [COLOR="Teal"][indent]ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰ ਨਾਨਕ ਦੇਉ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰਿ ਆਕਾਰ ਬਣਾਇਆ । nirankaar naanak dayu nirankaari aakaar banaaiaa| The formless Lord assumed the form of Guru Nanak Dev who is second all forms. ਗੁਰੁ ਅੰਗਦੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਅੰਗ ਤੇ ਗੰਗਹੁ ਜਾਣੁ ਤਰੰਗ ਉਠਾਇਆ । guru angadu guru ang tay gangahu jaanu tarang utdaaiaa| In turn, he created Guru Angad from his limbs as the waves created by Ganges. ਅਮਰਦਾਸੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਅੰਗਦਹੁ ਜੋਤਿ ਸਰੂਪ ਚਲਤੁ ਵਰਤਾਇਆ । amaradaasu guru angadahu joti saroop chalatu varataaiaa| From Guru Angad came Guru Amar Das and the miracle of the transference of the light was seen by one and all. ਗੁਰੁ ਅਮਰਹੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਰਾਮਦਾਸੁ ਅਨਹਦ ਨਾਦਹੁ ਸਬਦੁ ਸੁਣਾਇਆ । guru amarahu guru raamadaasu anahad naadahu sabadu sunaaiaa| From Guru Amar Das, Guru Ram Das came into being in such a way as if the Word was from the unstruck sounds. ~Vaar 24 Pauri 25 of Vaaran Bhai Gurdas Ji[/indent][/COLOR] [COLOR="Blue"][indent]ਆਸੰਭਉ ਉਦਵਿਅਉ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਪੂਰਨ ਬਿਧਾਤਉ ॥ aasanbho oudhaviao purakh pooran bidhhaatho || The Self-existent, Perfect Primal Lord God Creator has taken birth. ਨਾਨਕ ਆਦਿ ਅੰਗਦ ਅਮਰ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਸਬਦਿ ਸਮਾਇਅਉ ॥ naanak aadh angadh amar sathigur sabadh samaaeiao || First, Guru Nanak, then Guru Angad and Guru Amar Daas, the True Guru, have been absorbed into the Word of the Shabad. ~SGGS Ji p. 1407[/indent][/COLOR] ~Bhul chak maaf [/QUOTE]
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