☀️ JOIN SPN MOBILE
Forums
New posts
Guru Granth Sahib
Composition, Arrangement & Layout
ਜਪੁ | Jup
ਸੋ ਦਰੁ | So Dar
ਸੋਹਿਲਾ | Sohilaa
ਰਾਗੁ ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ | Raag Siree-Raag
Gurbani (14-53)
Ashtpadiyan (53-71)
Gurbani (71-74)
Pahre (74-78)
Chhant (78-81)
Vanjara (81-82)
Vaar Siri Raag (83-91)
Bhagat Bani (91-93)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਾਝ | Raag Maajh
Gurbani (94-109)
Ashtpadi (109)
Ashtpadiyan (110-129)
Ashtpadi (129-130)
Ashtpadiyan (130-133)
Bara Maha (133-136)
Din Raen (136-137)
Vaar Maajh Ki (137-150)
ਰਾਗੁ ਗਉੜੀ | Raag Gauree
Gurbani (151-185)
Quartets/Couplets (185-220)
Ashtpadiyan (220-234)
Karhalei (234-235)
Ashtpadiyan (235-242)
Chhant (242-249)
Baavan Akhari (250-262)
Sukhmani (262-296)
Thittee (296-300)
Gauree kii Vaar (300-323)
Gurbani (323-330)
Ashtpadiyan (330-340)
Baavan Akhari (340-343)
Thintteen (343-344)
Vaar Kabir (344-345)
Bhagat Bani (345-346)
ਰਾਗੁ ਆਸਾ | Raag Aasaa
Gurbani (347-348)
Chaupaday (348-364)
Panchpadde (364-365)
Kaafee (365-409)
Aasaavaree (409-411)
Ashtpadiyan (411-432)
Patee (432-435)
Chhant (435-462)
Vaar Aasaa (462-475)
Bhagat Bani (475-488)
ਰਾਗੁ ਗੂਜਰੀ | Raag Goojaree
Gurbani (489-503)
Ashtpadiyan (503-508)
Vaar Gujari (508-517)
Vaar Gujari (517-526)
ਰਾਗੁ ਦੇਵਗੰਧਾਰੀ | Raag Dayv-Gandhaaree
Gurbani (527-536)
ਰਾਗੁ ਬਿਹਾਗੜਾ | Raag Bihaagraa
Gurbani (537-556)
Chhant (538-548)
Vaar Bihaagraa (548-556)
ਰਾਗੁ ਵਡਹੰਸ | Raag Wadhans
Gurbani (557-564)
Ashtpadiyan (564-565)
Chhant (565-575)
Ghoriaan (575-578)
Alaahaniiaa (578-582)
Vaar Wadhans (582-594)
ਰਾਗੁ ਸੋਰਠਿ | Raag Sorath
Gurbani (595-634)
Asatpadhiya (634-642)
Vaar Sorath (642-659)
ਰਾਗੁ ਧਨਾਸਰੀ | Raag Dhanasaree
Gurbani (660-685)
Astpadhiya (685-687)
Chhant (687-691)
Bhagat Bani (691-695)
ਰਾਗੁ ਜੈਤਸਰੀ | Raag Jaitsree
Gurbani (696-703)
Chhant (703-705)
Vaar Jaitsaree (705-710)
Bhagat Bani (710)
ਰਾਗੁ ਟੋਡੀ | Raag Todee
ਰਾਗੁ ਬੈਰਾੜੀ | Raag Bairaaree
ਰਾਗੁ ਤਿਲੰਗ | Raag Tilang
Gurbani (721-727)
Bhagat Bani (727)
ਰਾਗੁ ਸੂਹੀ | Raag Suhi
Gurbani (728-750)
Ashtpadiyan (750-761)
Kaafee (761-762)
Suchajee (762)
Gunvantee (763)
Chhant (763-785)
Vaar Soohee (785-792)
Bhagat Bani (792-794)
ਰਾਗੁ ਬਿਲਾਵਲੁ | Raag Bilaaval
Gurbani (795-831)
Ashtpadiyan (831-838)
Thitteen (838-840)
Vaar Sat (841-843)
Chhant (843-848)
Vaar Bilaaval (849-855)
Bhagat Bani (855-858)
ਰਾਗੁ ਗੋਂਡ | Raag Gond
Gurbani (859-869)
Ashtpadiyan (869)
Bhagat Bani (870-875)
ਰਾਗੁ ਰਾਮਕਲੀ | Raag Ramkalee
Ashtpadiyan (902-916)
Gurbani (876-902)
Anand (917-922)
Sadd (923-924)
Chhant (924-929)
Dakhnee (929-938)
Sidh Gosat (938-946)
Vaar Ramkalee (947-968)
ਰਾਗੁ ਨਟ ਨਾਰਾਇਨ | Raag Nat Narayan
Gurbani (975-980)
Ashtpadiyan (980-983)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਾਲੀ ਗਉੜਾ | Raag Maalee Gauraa
Gurbani (984-988)
Bhagat Bani (988)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਾਰੂ | Raag Maaroo
Gurbani (889-1008)
Ashtpadiyan (1008-1014)
Kaafee (1014-1016)
Ashtpadiyan (1016-1019)
Anjulian (1019-1020)
Solhe (1020-1033)
Dakhni (1033-1043)
ਰਾਗੁ ਤੁਖਾਰੀ | Raag Tukhaari
Bara Maha (1107-1110)
Chhant (1110-1117)
ਰਾਗੁ ਕੇਦਾਰਾ | Raag Kedara
Gurbani (1118-1123)
Bhagat Bani (1123-1124)
ਰਾਗੁ ਭੈਰਉ | Raag Bhairo
Gurbani (1125-1152)
Partaal (1153)
Ashtpadiyan (1153-1167)
ਰਾਗੁ ਬਸੰਤੁ | Raag Basant
Gurbani (1168-1187)
Ashtpadiyan (1187-1193)
Vaar Basant (1193-1196)
ਰਾਗੁ ਸਾਰਗ | Raag Saarag
Gurbani (1197-1200)
Partaal (1200-1231)
Ashtpadiyan (1232-1236)
Chhant (1236-1237)
Vaar Saarang (1237-1253)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਲਾਰ | Raag Malaar
Gurbani (1254-1293)
Partaal (1265-1273)
Ashtpadiyan (1273-1278)
Chhant (1278)
Vaar Malaar (1278-91)
Bhagat Bani (1292-93)
ਰਾਗੁ ਕਾਨੜਾ | Raag Kaanraa
Gurbani (1294-96)
Partaal (1296-1318)
Ashtpadiyan (1308-1312)
Chhant (1312)
Vaar Kaanraa
Bhagat Bani (1318)
ਰਾਗੁ ਕਲਿਆਨ | Raag Kalyaan
Gurbani (1319-23)
Ashtpadiyan (1323-26)
ਰਾਗੁ ਪ੍ਰਭਾਤੀ | Raag Prabhaatee
Gurbani (1327-1341)
Ashtpadiyan (1342-51)
ਰਾਗੁ ਜੈਜਾਵੰਤੀ | Raag Jaijaiwanti
Gurbani (1352-53)
Salok | Gatha | Phunahe | Chaubole | Swayiye
Sehskritee Mahala 1
Sehskritee Mahala 5
Gaathaa Mahala 5
Phunhay Mahala 5
Chaubolae Mahala 5
Shaloks Bhagat Kabir
Shaloks Sheikh Farid
Swaiyyae Mahala 5
Swaiyyae in Praise of Gurus
Shaloks in Addition To Vaars
Shalok Ninth Mehl
Mundavanee Mehl 5
ਰਾਗ ਮਾਲਾ, Raag Maalaa
What's new
New posts
New media
New media comments
New resources
Latest activity
Videos
New media
New comments
Library
Latest reviews
Donate
Log in
Register
What's new
New posts
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Welcome to all New Sikh Philosophy Network Forums!
Explore Sikh Sikhi Sikhism...
Sign up
Log in
Discussions
Sikh Sikhi Sikhism
Sikhism Is Not The Same As Hinduism, Islam Or Christianity Etc
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="spnadmin" data-source="post: 84439" data-attributes="member: 35"><p><strong>Re: Sikhism is not the same as Hinduism..or Islam, .....or Christianity.....etc</strong></p><p></p><p>Harjas ji</p><p></p><p>A plea for relevance.</p><p></p><p><em>For the record, <a href="http://www.sikhism.us/" target="_blank">Sikhism</a> has developed into a separate sect, but to be honest, not on enough points of departure from Hindu philosophy to be considered a separate religion. But even if you do define <a href="http://www.sikhism.us/" target="_blank">Sikhism</a> as entirely different religion, why do people continue to deny <a href="http://www.sikhism.us/" target="_blank">Sikhism</a> has powerful orientation from within Vedic conceptions of God, universe, soul and salvation? And why, when we open this can of worms, and the spirit of anti-Hinduism raises it's head, are we not addressing that hostility between <a href="http://www.sikhism.us/" target="_blank">Sikh</a> and Hindu communities, because it is the very heart of serious problems and violence today. (quote from Post 35)</em></p><p></p><p>What is your basis in logic (not in emotion and inference based on loose associations) that causes you to correlate adherence to Sikh identity and violence against Hindus?</p><p></p><p><em>While I do still have sympathy for militancy as a Dharmic response to political oppression, there is a limit to an appropriate response. I think the <a href="http://www.sikhism.us/" target="_blank">Sikh</a> community as a whole is glorifying the violence of the past and exaggerating the <a href="http://www.sikhism.us/" target="_blank">Sikh</a>-Hindu divide for a manipulated separatist agenda. We don't have any justification for violence or treasonous attacks against Hindu populations, nor are there credible justifications for support of Pakistani jihadis. This political manipulation is a gross distortion of <a href="http://www.sikhism.us/" target="_blank">Sikhism</a>. And I believe it is firmly tied to the current attitudes of hostility and opposition to anything Hindu. This is not how anybody will create Khalistan. It's how people will create another Gallughara. And if we're honest and evaluate all the elements preceding the violence of the Indian state, there were a number of provoking factors and incidents which pitted Sikhs against Hindus. If people don't take responsibility for the causes of communal violence and strife, we're just going to keep justifying and repeating the same mistakes and go down that same path again. Sikhs weren't even noticed internationally during the 1980's and 1990's gallughara. What will happen if glorification of violence gets established in the public mind with incidents of collaboration with jihadi militant groups such as the Indian bombings? Sikhs won't have any support at all. So why are <a href="http://www.sikhism.us/" target="_blank">Sikh</a><a href="http://www.sikhism.us/" target="_blank">Sikhism</a> is volatile and promotes unease and suspicion by Indian government police and intelligence agencies. It also justifies violent means and encourages the fanatics among us. What good can come of it?</em> <em>communities praising the rhetoric of radical Khalistanis? Why continue to praise the rhetoric of independant nationhood and separate identity? Why continue to praise the rhetoric of independant nationhood and separate identity? This very talk about separatism, independance, disrespect for anything Hindu in <a href="http://www.sikhism.us/" target="_blank">Sikhism</a> is volatile and promotes unease and suspicion by Indian government police and intelligence agencies. It also justifies violent means and encourages the fanatics among us. What good can come of it?</em></p><p></p><p>Do we have hard empirical facts and figures to support your claims. What percentage of the Sikh community worldwide subscribes to armed oppression of Hindus and jihadi activity? or does so on the basis of their belief in Sikh identity? What is the incidence? What is the prevalence? Please provide more than your suspicions. </p><p><em></em></p><p><em>It can't be possible that xyz former terrorist is innocent, when the very attitudes of the community largely agree with his alleged terrorist actions, when the actions are justified, and when the victims are demonized as part of some brahmin conspiracy of the evil Indian state. That is simply propaganda worthy of Hitler to demonize and scapegoat populations of people. I invite people to look very closely at this agitation for separate <a href="http://www.sikhism.us/" target="_blank">Sikh</a> political identity couched in the name of religion, because it is nothing more than advocacy of violence, of violent means to secede from the Indian state and establish an independant <a href="http://www.sikhism.us/" target="_blank">Sikh</a> homeland. It is nothing more than jihadi religion which promotes shaheedi as a means to achieve mukti. It is nothing more than radical Islamic definitions of a One True God and a One True Faith. It is nothing more than an imposed Abrahamic conception which makes every other religion and people in the world inferior to <a href="http://www.sikhism.us/" target="_blank">Sikhism</a>, as it proclaims falsely that <a href="http://www.sikhism.us/" target="_blank">Sikhism</a> is the only boat of mukti, not unlike jihadis. It is nothing more than a political philosophy of ethnocentric self-promotion and intolerance in the name of a spiritual teaching. (quoted from post 39)</em></p><p></p><p>Please explain to the forum how you have arrived at these conclusions - for they are conclusions and not so far drawn from evidence but from your personal perceptions. Have you <strong>personally </strong>conducted a sufficiently broad investigation <strong>using a representative cross-section</strong> of the worldwide Sikh community, perhaps by the use of surveys and <strong>analysis</strong> of print media, to draw any of the conclusions in the paragraph above. I am not convinced that YouTube videos are objective sources of evidence. </p><p></p><p><em>The <a href="http://www.sikhism.us/" target="_blank">Sikh</a> community in diaspora has confused spirituality with violent politics of separatism. And those politics were the likely precipitant for the attack in 1984 and subsequent gallughara. While this can't in any way excuse the horrific and unjust response by the government of India against the Sikhs, it can't be overlooked either, that Sikhs themselves were provoking the Indian state with talk of independant identity, armed rallies and resistence. It isn't much different from today where you see dera sacha sauda premis beating or killing a <a href="http://www.sikhism.us/" target="_blank">Sikh</a>... but you find that <a href="http://www.sikhism.us/" target="_blank">Sikh</a> was also part of an armed agitation. So honestly, we have to say a certain response from the <a href="http://www.sikhism.us/" target="_blank">Sikh</a> Panth is one of provocation. And this alone is a large cause of unrest. Consider that 1978 Amritsar attack by sant Nirankaris against Sikhs would not have occured if Sikhs had not responded to deliberate provocations of Gurbachana by marching with swords and shields. The response received was a gunfight. How could they win? So in hindsight, it was a foolish response, and it resulted in tragedy for the Sikhs. And it was this incident which led to the formation of Babbar Khalsa International, which now has main headquarters in Pakistan and known collaboration with jihadis. Is there anything logical in this history of events which has anything to do with a spiritual message (also quoted from post 39)</em></p><p></p><p>I have not, in my limited experience, seen or heard any activity aiming in the direction of armed response or hostility toward Hindus or the government of India at the two gurdwaras that I attend. Perhaps they are meeting secretly in remote areas, or in bunkers disguised as storage facilities and warehouses on the outskirts of the city. Perhaps they do not want me to know about it. I might spill the beans. In fact Khalistan is never discussed there either. </p><p></p><p>Whether they are or they are not violently predisposed toward Hindus is irrelevant in this discussion. What is the <strong>logical</strong> argument that leads to the conclusion: <em>Sikhism is not the same as Hinduism</em> (title of the thread we are now looking at) can be <strong>reasonably associated </strong>with separatism, jihadism, violence, and nazism? Please provide empirical evidence and logical arguments.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="spnadmin, post: 84439, member: 35"] [b]Re: Sikhism is not the same as Hinduism..or Islam, .....or Christianity.....etc[/b] Harjas ji A plea for relevance. [I]For the record, [URL="http://www.sikhism.us/"]Sikhism[/URL] has developed into a separate sect, but to be honest, not on enough points of departure from Hindu philosophy to be considered a separate religion. But even if you do define [URL="http://www.sikhism.us/"]Sikhism[/URL] as entirely different religion, why do people continue to deny [URL="http://www.sikhism.us/"]Sikhism[/URL] has powerful orientation from within Vedic conceptions of God, universe, soul and salvation? And why, when we open this can of worms, and the spirit of anti-Hinduism raises it's head, are we not addressing that hostility between [URL="http://www.sikhism.us/"]Sikh[/URL] and Hindu communities, because it is the very heart of serious problems and violence today. (quote from Post 35)[/I] What is your basis in logic (not in emotion and inference based on loose associations) that causes you to correlate adherence to Sikh identity and violence against Hindus? [I]While I do still have sympathy for militancy as a Dharmic response to political oppression, there is a limit to an appropriate response. I think the [URL="http://www.sikhism.us/"]Sikh[/URL] community as a whole is glorifying the violence of the past and exaggerating the [URL="http://www.sikhism.us/"]Sikh[/URL]-Hindu divide for a manipulated separatist agenda. We don't have any justification for violence or treasonous attacks against Hindu populations, nor are there credible justifications for support of Pakistani jihadis. This political manipulation is a gross distortion of [URL="http://www.sikhism.us/"]Sikhism[/URL]. And I believe it is firmly tied to the current attitudes of hostility and opposition to anything Hindu. This is not how anybody will create Khalistan. It's how people will create another Gallughara. And if we're honest and evaluate all the elements preceding the violence of the Indian state, there were a number of provoking factors and incidents which pitted Sikhs against Hindus. If people don't take responsibility for the causes of communal violence and strife, we're just going to keep justifying and repeating the same mistakes and go down that same path again. Sikhs weren't even noticed internationally during the 1980's and 1990's gallughara. What will happen if glorification of violence gets established in the public mind with incidents of collaboration with jihadi militant groups such as the Indian bombings? Sikhs won't have any support at all. So why are [URL="http://www.sikhism.us/"]Sikh[/URL][URL="http://www.sikhism.us/"]Sikhism[/URL] is volatile and promotes unease and suspicion by Indian government police and intelligence agencies. It also justifies violent means and encourages the fanatics among us. What good can come of it?[/I] [I]communities praising the rhetoric of radical Khalistanis? Why continue to praise the rhetoric of independant nationhood and separate identity? Why continue to praise the rhetoric of independant nationhood and separate identity? This very talk about separatism, independance, disrespect for anything Hindu in [URL="http://www.sikhism.us/"]Sikhism[/URL] is volatile and promotes unease and suspicion by Indian government police and intelligence agencies. It also justifies violent means and encourages the fanatics among us. What good can come of it?[/I] Do we have hard empirical facts and figures to support your claims. What percentage of the Sikh community worldwide subscribes to armed oppression of Hindus and jihadi activity? or does so on the basis of their belief in Sikh identity? What is the incidence? What is the prevalence? Please provide more than your suspicions. [I] It can't be possible that xyz former terrorist is innocent, when the very attitudes of the community largely agree with his alleged terrorist actions, when the actions are justified, and when the victims are demonized as part of some brahmin conspiracy of the evil Indian state. That is simply propaganda worthy of Hitler to demonize and scapegoat populations of people. I invite people to look very closely at this agitation for separate [URL="http://www.sikhism.us/"]Sikh[/URL] political identity couched in the name of religion, because it is nothing more than advocacy of violence, of violent means to secede from the Indian state and establish an independant [URL="http://www.sikhism.us/"]Sikh[/URL] homeland. It is nothing more than jihadi religion which promotes shaheedi as a means to achieve mukti. It is nothing more than radical Islamic definitions of a One True God and a One True Faith. It is nothing more than an imposed Abrahamic conception which makes every other religion and people in the world inferior to [URL="http://www.sikhism.us/"]Sikhism[/URL], as it proclaims falsely that [URL="http://www.sikhism.us/"]Sikhism[/URL] is the only boat of mukti, not unlike jihadis. It is nothing more than a political philosophy of ethnocentric self-promotion and intolerance in the name of a spiritual teaching. (quoted from post 39)[/I] Please explain to the forum how you have arrived at these conclusions - for they are conclusions and not so far drawn from evidence but from your personal perceptions. Have you [B]personally [/B]conducted a sufficiently broad investigation [B]using a representative cross-section[/B] of the worldwide Sikh community, perhaps by the use of surveys and [B]analysis[/B] of print media, to draw any of the conclusions in the paragraph above. I am not convinced that YouTube videos are objective sources of evidence. [I]The [URL="http://www.sikhism.us/"]Sikh[/URL] community in diaspora has confused spirituality with violent politics of separatism. And those politics were the likely precipitant for the attack in 1984 and subsequent gallughara. While this can't in any way excuse the horrific and unjust response by the government of India against the Sikhs, it can't be overlooked either, that Sikhs themselves were provoking the Indian state with talk of independant identity, armed rallies and resistence. It isn't much different from today where you see dera sacha sauda premis beating or killing a [URL="http://www.sikhism.us/"]Sikh[/URL]... but you find that [URL="http://www.sikhism.us/"]Sikh[/URL] was also part of an armed agitation. So honestly, we have to say a certain response from the [URL="http://www.sikhism.us/"]Sikh[/URL] Panth is one of provocation. And this alone is a large cause of unrest. Consider that 1978 Amritsar attack by sant Nirankaris against Sikhs would not have occured if Sikhs had not responded to deliberate provocations of Gurbachana by marching with swords and shields. The response received was a gunfight. How could they win? So in hindsight, it was a foolish response, and it resulted in tragedy for the Sikhs. And it was this incident which led to the formation of Babbar Khalsa International, which now has main headquarters in Pakistan and known collaboration with jihadis. Is there anything logical in this history of events which has anything to do with a spiritual message (also quoted from post 39)[/I] I have not, in my limited experience, seen or heard any activity aiming in the direction of armed response or hostility toward Hindus or the government of India at the two gurdwaras that I attend. Perhaps they are meeting secretly in remote areas, or in bunkers disguised as storage facilities and warehouses on the outskirts of the city. Perhaps they do not want me to know about it. I might spill the beans. In fact Khalistan is never discussed there either. Whether they are or they are not violently predisposed toward Hindus is irrelevant in this discussion. What is the [B]logical[/B] argument that leads to the conclusion: [I]Sikhism is not the same as Hinduism[/I] (title of the thread we are now looking at) can be [B]reasonably associated [/B]with separatism, jihadism, violence, and nazism? Please provide empirical evidence and logical arguments. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Discussions
Sikh Sikhi Sikhism
Sikhism Is Not The Same As Hinduism, Islam Or Christianity Etc
This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
Accept
Learn more…
Top